I love this game, but am sick of crappy agro

[Ixnay]

<DIV>All my 40 to 50 spells are master or adept 3. When grouped, I spam every spell I have with any hate component constantly, cast group buffs that also seem to generate agro, and employ every other method ever discussed on this board that is helpful in maintaining or generating hate with mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I'm sick sick sick and tired of losing agro to lower level berserkers, guardians and bruisers who are not taunting or who cast one taunt after I've spammed 10 or more on the same mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sick of groups wanting a berzerker 2 levels below me to tank instead of me because my agro SUCKS and others in group keep getting agro when my mitigation/avoidance/health and equipment is so far superior to that other tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I'm especially sick of not being chosen for a group in the first place because at the highest levels going into hard encounters, other players have become educated at how bad we suck in keeping the mobs off them.  I honestly don't see how most SKs can get to level 50, or at least it is going to be 10 x harder for them to do so than for any other tank class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sick of having to constantly explain to group members how to play with me in the group so that I can maintain agro when they don't have to do these things or be near this careful when another tank class player is tanking instead of an SK.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, if everyone else in group is EXTREMELY careful and plays EXACTLY PERFECTLY in a textbook manner, I can maintain agro.  BUT IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EVERY OTHER TANK CLASS CAN DO ONE TENTH OF THE WORK THAT I DO TO HOLD AGRO, AND HAVE WORSE SPELLS/ABILITIES AND EQUIPMENT THAN ME, BUT CAN HOLD AGRO TEN TIMES BETTER THAN I CAN.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE, please fix my classes ability to play this game by being MT in a group, because right now it's embarrassing how badly we suck compared to other tank class players in holding agro.</DIV>

[Troodon]

As a Paladin I share your frustration, we're fortunate as a subclass to have significantly fewer problems in the terms of broken abilities, but we share your hate management problems. Warriors seem to rule the roost when it comes to Hate management, Crusaders seem to be stuck in the role of the Red Queen: we have to run just to keep pace with others whom walk. Tanking consists of two factors, getting a mobs attention (Hate management) and then dealing with thier attacks once you have their ire (Mitigation/Avoidance). Crusaders have fewer taunts and exemplify neither Mitigation nor Avoidance as Warriors and Brawlers respectively with these incomming changes. Paladins are fortunate that our corresponding magical abilities are seen as desirable: healing. Which is lucky for Paladins as I fear that all Crusaders are going to find themselves marginalised to off tanking when it comes to raiding/high end encounters from what little we can see of the current combat changes. <div></div>

[Darkaren]

<DIV>sure sounds like a major case of complaining.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, If you have a single target, there is NO reason you should lose agro. Ever, unless of course there is a 3k plus nuke at teh start of a battle. Otherwise, its your fault, not your classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, Sk's may not get a lot of specific taunts, but our spells all act as taunts. THink we get 3 taunts that actually deal damage. That is a big deal.  You should use them, and you wont lose agro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Upgrade those taunts to AD3 asap if you plan on tanking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at our AE's. For group mobs, we should also have a very hard time losing agro. AE dmg and dots act as taunts. We get doom judgement, unending pain, and death cloud, not to mention baleful smite. These together add more dmg to the group mobs, helping you keep solid agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes we may generate less hate listed in spell lists, but we deal a significant amount of damage witht hose taunts that make up for a good deal of that hate. Honestly, id rather have more dmg off a mob than a little more hate that is built with your dmg anyway</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~dark </DIV> <DIV>50 GUK</DIV>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkaren wrote:<BR> <DIV>sure sounds like a major case of complaining.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, If you have a single target, there is NO reason you should lose agro. Ever, unless of course there is a 3k plus nuke at teh start of a battle. Otherwise, its your fault, not your classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, Sk's may not get a lot of specific taunts, but our spells all act as taunts. THink we get 3 taunts that actually deal damage. That is a big deal.  You should use them, and you wont lose agro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Upgrade those taunts to AD3 asap if you plan on tanking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at our AE's. For group mobs, we should also have a very hard time losing agro. AE dmg and dots act as taunts. We get doom judgement, unending pain, and death cloud, not to mention baleful smite. These together add more dmg to the group mobs, helping you keep solid agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes we may generate less hate listed in spell lists, but we deal a significant amount of damage witht hose taunts that make up for a good deal of that hate. Honestly, id rather have more dmg off a mob than a little more hate that is built with your dmg anyway</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~dark </DIV> <DIV>50 GUK</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd really thank you to read my post next time before responding with a cheap insult then giving inapplicable n00bi level advice.  </P> <P>Here's my profile:  <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=108830103" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=108830103</A> .  I'm a level 49 in a raiding guild.</P> <P>Allow me to summarize what I wrote:</P> <P>1.  I have EVERY level 40 to 50 spell at Adept 3 or master level, so I don't need to upgrade any of those as you suggest.  When I say every, yes, I mean all, each one, including all taunts.  </P> <P>2.  I know which of those spells are taunts, have any hate component, or act to get a mob's attention in any manner, including ae's and buffs.  I use three rows of hotbars when I tank, and spam every spell I have during encounters that has any tendency to get or maintain agro, including single target taunts, group taunts ae spells when appropriate (and yes I know the difference between the ones with blue and green icons).  I'm not sure where you exp, but I do not fight single target encounters exclusively when I group.  AND DESPITE THIS constant spamming and having maintaining agro being literally the SOLE FOCUS of what I do in groups, I CONSTANTLY LOSE IT to other group members, and especially other tank class members who claim they are not taunting at all.  I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HAVING OTHER GROUP MEMBERS TELLING ME THAT I SHOULD TAUNT - and the half hour discussion that follows with me suggesting that they should turn on group spells and notice me chain casting Insidious Whisper, Shriek of Terror, Pariah's Mark, and 6 to 8 other level appropriate spells that are known or believed to affect hate in any way.</P> <P>3.  I am in no way saying that SKs suck or that I'm even unhappy with my class except in the area of agro.  In fact I love my class and wouldn't want to play anything else.  I'm not sure why you need to bring in all the stuff about our damage or other off topic factors, I'm not complaining about ANYTHING except the single topic I wrote about in my post.</P> <P>4.  My single topic is this:  our ability to get and maintain agro from other group members SUCKS BADLY compared to every other tanking class.  We have to work constantly, and MANY MANY times harder than any other tanking class to get and maintain agro in groups.  </P> <P>I  believe you hurt our class by coming here and acting like all is perfect about this topic and nothing needs to be improved.  If that's the case, I cannot believe you play regularly or in mixed groups with other tank class players or experience in higher level zones.</P> <DIV>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Smileonadog on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:40 PM</span>

[Dogm]

<DIV>There is major problems with agro. Today I was fighting in OLS with a wizard. He was afk a decent distance away from me. I was soloing a mob, using my pet and using taunts for HO's. Now for no reason the mob turned off of me and ran and beat down the wizard. The wiz wasn't even at his keyboard, he didnt use 1 spell. I did not FD . There is no reason this should have happened, but it did. Agro really needs to be looked into and fixed as it is not a problem with the player but something within the game mechanics itself.</DIV>

[Siner]

Level 50 Sk here. The only problems I have had re aggro vs other classes is the zerker. Was screwing around in CT with just me, a 50 inquis, and a 41 zerker looking for named for the screaming mace. Anyway, I had the parser on and we were fighting the ^^ blobs near the temple in the back. I was doing at least 50dps (1 handed) the zerker was avg about 17. Due to all the self-buffing the zerker was doing, I would lose aggro to him if i wasn't constantly using every single one of my tricks to create aggro.Now i could see if he was close to my level and was doing some mean dps, but i was crushing him and he was still getting it. This is the only class that I lose aggro to. It has emphasized the fact that buffing causes insane aggro, specially since it can't be resisted.

[Xiene]

<P>So far i lost aggro to 2 classes... 1 zerker who doesnt know how to manage aggro. 2 can you believe, it's a swashy :-.</P> <P>Only happen when doing single target mob.  Duoing with swashy, the fight is longer.  By the time i start having problem..is when i am OOP..swashy only use 1 bub of power *$%#&! :-.</P> <P>Berzerker... I really dont want to go that far.. they are elite in generating aggro..without taunt.  Nor do I want to burn all my power just so i can keep up with his hate.</P> <P>what can i say.. i am a slacker SK who plays a class that has to do twice as much work to keep up with others. har har.</P>

[Ixnay]

<DIV>After reading the above responses, I would like to be more specific, yes the problem class that I have the most trouble maintaining agro with in group is berzerker - and two different berzerkers that I often group with I might add, so this seems consistent.  It became so frustrating I don't want to group with them anymore, or I let them tank when we group, which doesn't necessarily make sense under the circumstances.  I would not suggest that berzerkers need to be nerfed however, just that our class needs to be fixed somehow so that we can play with them if they are in the same group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will reiterate what I also said tho, it seems like guardians do ten percent of the work we have to do to get and maintain agro, I can keep agro with a guardian in group but I really have to work at it, imo it just shouldnt be this hard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you for the information <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Rylight]

<DIV>Yeah I'm really not one to complain very much, but there is indeed something wrong with our aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a guilde guardian who is about 3-4 lvls below me. When we grouped I would let him be MT, ( respectivly because he is one of our guild leaders and as a guardian its his repsective role, in our guild the guardian is going to be the MT, thats just how it is) and I have absolutly no problem with that, It can be a real relief to off-tank every now and then, and it gives me a chance to whip out my two-hander and cast sorrow and other aoe's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyways we were in EL fighting some darkflight dryrads that where green and blue to me, so to him they were probably white and yellow. He had real trouble keeping agro and used no more then a bubble if that when the fight was over. He had to go afk for like ten minutes so I played MT for the time being. When I started out the fight I quickly lost aggro to a bunch of blues and greens, and when I finished just one fight I would only have half my power bar (if that) because I was taunting and shouting like crazy (shriek of terror and deasease cloud)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>to the point, we just use way to much power trying to keep aggro, and even then it doesnt always seem effective. Now I realize as SK's we get back up spells such as HT , rescue, and graven embrace, but those spells only work on one mob. when you lose a whole group of mobs it only does so much for you, also HT and rescue are on a large timer, and can only be used every so often (and yes I have the 15 minute HT) If our spells didnt take so much power it wouldnt be a big deal, or even better if our taunts just worked better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also has occured to me that <STRONG>soe did partially intend us to be back up tanks and/or off tanks</STRONG>. Now this is kinda good actually, It means we can either be MT, a back up tank to the MT, a partial warder for when things get ugly, and extra dps.  To prove this you must look at our line of spells. <U>infernal pact</U>- wards ourselfs or others. <U>Evasive menuevers</U>- we cant even use this spell on ourselfs, its soley intended for the MT. <U>Grant of armenant</U><STRONG>- </STRONG>once agian soley for the MT, we give them our AC, which of course means we wont be needing it, which of course means OFF-TANKING.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this a bad thing??? no not really, like I said before, its great to have the capability to be the MT or off tanker.<STRONG> but what I wonder is if that soe put to much emphasis on us being able to off tank that they lowered our ability to MT and keep aggro as an attempted to keep us balanced?? </STRONG>which almost seems like they are using subliminal messages to say " hey shadowknight, you've main tanked enough today and your getting a little rusty, maybe you should let that zerker behind you take the plate and put some of your buffing skills to good use, otherwise we just wasted time making those spells for you"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and zerkers. oh my thule. I was grouping with one two lvls below me earlier in zek, We were fighting a group of some fish that jumped us and conned white to us. I was the MT so I was aoeing, and using shriek of terror like crazy, the zerker had his buffs up and thats it. I swear he didnt use one extra skill, or any special attack, but next thing you know, BAM, he has my aggro, he didnt even mean to do it, he was just using his normal attacks. and man thats so embarrasing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>nerf guardians?? nerf zerkers??....... heck no, they are doing a great job and I have nothing agianst them, its just very clear that the crusader class needs to be looked over in the area of aggro in general.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats all I really need to say for one day. In ten lvls I will hit 50, and by then I hope I dont have these same problems still. very good and mature post btw smileonadog.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and once again, yeah, we have put in alot of work and use ALOT of power to keep up with aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rylight]

<DIV>Yeah I'm really not one to complain very much, but there is indeed something wrong with our aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a guilde guardian who is about 3-4 lvls below me. When we grouped I would let him be MT, ( respectivly because he is one of our guild leaders and as a guardian its his repsective role, in our guild the guardian is going to be the MT, thats just how it is) and I have absolutly no problem with that, It can be a real relief to off-tank every now and then, and it gives me a chance to whip out my two-hander and cast sorrow and other aoe's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyways we were in EL fighting some darkflight dryrads that where green and blue to me, so to him they were probably white and yellow. He had real trouble keeping agro and used no more then a bubble if that when the fight was over. He had to go afk for like ten minutes so I played MT for the time being. When I started out the fight I quickly lost aggro to a bunch of blues and greens, and when I finished just one fight I would only have half my power bar (if that) because I was taunting and shouting like crazy (shriek of terror and deasease cloud)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>to the point, we just use way to much power trying to keep aggro, and even then it doesnt always seem effective. Now I realize as SK's we get back up spells such as HT , rescue, and graven embrace, but those spells only work on one mob. when you lose a whole group of mobs it only does so much for you, also HT and rescue are on a large timer, and can only be used every so often (and yes I have the 15 minute HT) If our spells didnt take so much power it wouldnt be a big deal, or even better if our taunts just worked better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also has occured to me that <STRONG>soe did partially intend us to be back up tanks and/or off tanks</STRONG>. Now this is kinda good actually, It means we can either be MT, a back up tank to the MT, a partial warder for when things get ugly, and extra dps.  To prove this you must look at our line of spells. <U>infernal pact</U>- wards ourselfs or others. <U>Evasive menuevers</U>- we cant even use this spell on ourselfs, its soley intended for the MT. <U>Grant of armenant</U><STRONG>- </STRONG>once agian soley for the MT, we give them our AC, which of course means we wont be needing it, which of course means OFF-TANKING.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this a bad thing??? no not really, like I said before, its great to have the capability to be the MT or off tanker.<STRONG> but what I wonder is if that soe put to much emphasis on us being able to off tank that they lowered our ability to MT and keep aggro as an attempted to keep us balanced?? </STRONG>which almost seems like they are using subliminal messages to say " hey shadowknight, you've main tanked enough today and your getting a little rusty, maybe you should let that zerker behind you take the plate and put some of your buffing skills to good use, otherwise we just wasted time making those spells for you"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and zerkers. oh my thule. I was grouping with one two lvls below me earlier in zek, We were fighting a group of some fish that jumped us and conned white to us. I was the MT so I was aoeing, and using shriek of terror like crazy, the zerker had his buffs up and thats it. I swear he didnt use one extra skill, or any special attack, but next thing you know, BAM, he has my aggro, he didnt even mean to do it, he was just using his normal attacks. and man thats so embarrasing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>nerf guardians?? nerf zerkers??....... heck no, they are doing a great job and I have nothing agianst them, its just very clear that the crusader class needs to be looked over in the area of aggro in general.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats all I really need to say for one day. In ten lvls I will hit 50, and by then I hope I dont have these same problems still. very good and mature post btw smileonadog.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and once again, yeah, we have put in alot of work and use ALOT of power to keep up with aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rylight]

<DIV>sorry double post........ hmmm i guess this makes triple huh.</DIV>

[Xiene]

<DIV>Actually it might be kinda odd.. but I used to group with one of th zerker who's playing a DPS role in my group, he was actually higher level than me.  49 Zerker, I was 48 SK.  Odd thing is he burn thru his power not even getting any attention from mob that I am tanking.  Yet most of the time i grouped with zerker...usually didnt take half bub of power from zerker to gain full aggro take over from me.   Odd... I guess it really depends on how the berserker play his class.</DIV>

[lubu1977]

<DIV>Smile, before making the comment, I just want to say that your armor and jewelry are very impressive, and I wish I could have them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is very disappointed to hear from the one who has one of the best stuffs in the game and still can't maintain aggro well...<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a 40SK, all my spells are adept and usually I can tank pretty well; especially, when I am in my guildy group, I rarely lose aggro unless they don't assist me.  But when raid, I was never chosen as MT cuz so many guardians out there. As above posters' comments, I have to do some good damage and additional tuants in order to keep aggros.  When I stop using magic attacks and keep using tuants, I will lose aggro to zerkers or assasines.  I observed guardians tank and saw they just used tuants only and still kept aggro very well. Yah I think SOE need to improve SK's tuant to the lvl of guardian's tuant spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: Ebon armors cost 3p a piece <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Smile, do u mind making me ebon armor when i have ebon cluster? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>40SK</DIV> <DIV>30Tailor</DIV>

[Ando]

<P>Guys, instead of whining, accept your role for now. Taunts are being looked into for, what was it - patch 7?</P> <P>If you group with a zerker, regardless of level, you are no longer MT. Accept that. You will do a much better job warding them than they can ward you anyway. </P> <P>If you lead a group, and need more DPS, do not bring in a lower level zerker. </P> <P>/Kale</P> <P> </P>

[far]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AndorV wrote:<BR> <P>Guys, instead of whining, accept your role for now. Taunts are being looked into for, what was it - patch 7?</P> <P>If you group with a zerker, regardless of level, you are no longer MT. Accept that. You will do a much better job warding them than they can ward you anyway. </P> <P>If you lead a group, and need more DPS, do not bring in a lower level zerker. </P> <P>/Kale</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The point is that zerkers are being chosen before us, even with worse gear, lower average spell quality, and being LOWER level. because our skills are just plain inadequate when compared to other tank classes. Reguardless of any bizarre aggro bugs that are lurking. When you compare Crusader Warrior and Monk skills on a basis of threat damage and power crusaders come up woefully short.</DIV>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>farbe wrote:</P> <P><BR> </P> <DIV>The point is that zerkers are being chosen before us, even with worse gear, lower average spell quality, and being LOWER level. because our skills are just plain inadequate when compared to other tank classes. Reguardless of any bizarre aggro bugs that are lurking. When you compare Crusader Warrior and Monk skills on a basis of threat damage and power crusaders come up woefully short.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Exactly.  Let's say both an SK and a zerker a level below him are standing at inzone in Sol's Eye with LFG on.  The SK has full ebon armor and all epic/raid/fabled mob gear and weapons, the zerker is wearing fulginate plate and treasured items at best.  Based on the game now and previous grouping experiences with both of these classes, a very large number of groups are going to pick the zerker over the SK based on his simple ability to do a much better job keeping agro off the cleric, the assassin, and the over nuking wizard.  And why would that same group even pick the SK as an additional group member when another class will add better dps and the zerker can easily control agro over multiple encounters at the same time if the group gets adds.<BR></P>

[far]

<DIV>*$%#&! work IE connection</DIV><p>Message Edited by farbe on <span class=date_text>04-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:43 PM</span>

[far]

<P>The greater problem is the general perception of tanks, after a NON tank groups with a guardian or berserker, they get an idea of how much dps/heals/buffs they can perform before pulling aggro. When these characters transition to a crusader (SK specifically simply because I am one) they will gain aggro quickly (first 2nd or 3rd feat into the encounter).</P> <P>I understand their rationale, with a warrior based tank I had no problem moving at this pace, hence this tank MUST be slacking and not taunting, and we SKs are insulted by a lower level char (generally) shouting TAUNT TAUNT TAUNT TAUNT. This is annoying to the crusader seeing as they have spent 50% of their power already to the 10-20% everyone else has, and makes you want to strangle the person yelling.</P> <P>But looking at it from their perspective it makes sense, this tank is using all their power on something worthless and im dying because of it, Im doing my best to get my required dps/healing done to maximize our time and this *$%#&! is slowing us down by having less power then us after every encounter  and hes losing aggro to boot. </P> <P>After this occurs with several differant crusader tanks that person no longer wants to play in groups with crusaders.</P> <P>Compounded to the problem is against a single target encounter SKs do fine with only 2x the amount of power spent compared to the rest of the group, but when group encounters pop up we are royally screwed (I say this with the bias that I group with a coercer 70% of the time and AEs are a no no, I realize this is a hinderance of one of the sks better skill sets but overall its better for the rest of the group, hence i dont get to pop off my AEs often). </P> <P>As AE taunts at level 48 (no AE damage) I have my Ward at adept 1... its a beastly price for so little healing I usually cast it once while pulling and reserve future casts for loss of aggro which is all to frequent, I have Hunger which has a long recast timer and is slow casting, I have toughness (even longer recast time) slow cast, and shriek.</P> <P>So a typical pull on a multi mob encounter is Baleful Smite, running back to group, HO, Anger, disease cloud, at group toughness (if up), hunger, if up, ward, shriek I STILL lose MOFO aggro. Sometimes there is not enough space for pulls or we are crawling and its just Balefulsmite, toughness, hunger, and shriek. Yeah its power intensive and yeah I will lose aggro but its the best I can do and THAT is the problem.</P> <p>Message Edited by farbe on <span class=date_text>04-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:48 PM</span>

[far]

<DIV>An additional note that might be able to help us poor sks maintain aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enchanters have a power spell that generates aggro for every person its cast on per TICK, its not huge but it is crippling if stunned while on a pull (watchihg the hoard race back to eat the enchanter).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since Sony sees fit to give us a bunch of a crappy useless skills (as documented in other threads) how about a Dark Aura spell that is 10-30 mins in duration (depending on skill level) that can be cast on anyone in the group (for the love god think a reasonable power cost, A REASONAB... ahh forget it).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This spell simply generates aggro for the spells casters every tick for EACH party member it is cast on, and affects EVERY mob in the encounter without something like 30 feet. It would be a pain in the *$%#&! to keep up (plus casting it 6x for a full group) but could help  the SKs multiple mob aggro management, side benefit the adds would attack the tank FIRST instead of the coercer, making SKs an ideal canidate to tank areas with lots of roamers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont make the amount of aggro generated each tick particularly large, but something..... anything.... anyone.... bueller.</DIV>

[Kunathar]

<DIV>Personally I share some of these aggro issues, but due to play-time I've been soloing quite frequently so I have yet to really group much in the past month or so, but when I do it's pretty obvious my ability to hold aggro isn't as trivial as it appears to be for a non-crusader type.  But I have read they are examining aggro in the next patch so I am eager to see what, if anything, happens. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note, this whole issue is like a exact replica of the Warrior & Knight issues from EQLive...except it was the other around there...Warriors sucked at aggro control while Knights (most of the time) had aggro lock.  This adversely affected a Warriors ability to perform their one and only skill as Knights simply could do it better w/ a quite noticeably lower level of risk to the rest of the group while at same time offering the group a nice bag of utilities to further enhance their usefulness over a Warrior.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An interesting parallell I see being made here.</DIV>

[Margen]

<P>That was changed in EQlive though when warriors got the aggro improvements, they maintained aggro almost as well on a single mob, better on a group of mobs and took less damage and did better dps.  Now in EQ2, they seem to have aggro lock better then us and can take the hits better and the zerkers do great DPS.  Kind of a problem as I see it, plus with tanking changes might get worse (or even better ... but doubt it ... but been wrong before).</P> <P>V/R</P> <P>Blackoath 31st Troll Shadow Knight</P>

[jjlo69]

<DIV>Ixnay<BR></DIV> <DIV>Well i have my current taunts at adept 1 and dont have any problems holding hate unless the dps lay into it too early but usally i dont have any issues.. heres all i do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. pull with Dreadful Wrath (master 1)</DIV> <DIV>2. Taunt HO</DIV> <DIV>3. Buff (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>4. use the phara mark(adept 1) </DIV> <DIV>5  Dmg asborb Mark(adpet 1) </DIV> <DIV>6. Taunt ae/dot/lifetap/pet regent spell/sheild bash or 2hd weapon agi debuff</DIV> <DIV>7   repeat </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i have a caster ing the group that like to open up dmg before i get a chance to taunt i FD them a few times then they get the hint to let me do my thing before they lay into the mob. Also your a gnome SK right may i ask what your STR is at cause taunt and dmg is STR based if i rember right maybe you need a few more STR items to help you out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>zordie</DIV> <DIV>43 Ogre SK</DIV> <DIV>permafrost</DIV>

[Genag]

<DIV>What is your problem, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=50873" target=top><SPAN>Smileonadog</SPAN></A> ? If you are crying because you are not able to hold aggro - AFAIK it is problem of your play. Not problem of your class. I am SK lvl 42 and I am able to work with aggro as guards on the same lvl. I did not see any guard on appropriate lvl holding aggro in better way than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have problem that zerks and bruiser can do it more easily? That is not a real problem. It will be tunned. Dont worry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just enjoy your play.</DIV>

[Xiene]

<P>...mind if i ask a question.</P> <P>Exactly how much power you got left after fight :p?</P> <P>All I did was just taunt n dps, throw in some dreadful wraths n pariah's mark.   But Ward n ..whatever you keep doing is totally unneccessary.  It's xp group how do you expect yourself to keep up with your power if you dont have breeze ?</P>

[Ando]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Genagen wrote:<BR> <DIV>What is your problem, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=50873" target=top><SPAN>Smileonadog</SPAN></A> ? If you are crying because you are not able to hold aggro - AFAIK it is problem of your play. Not problem of your class. I am SK lvl 42 and I am able to work with aggro as guards on the same lvl. I did not see any guard on appropriate lvl holding aggro in better way than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have problem that zerks and bruiser can do it more easily? That is not a real problem. It will be tunned. Dont worry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just enjoy your play.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My point exactly. Also, on higher levels it will be your reputation in the community that<BR>decides if you will be selected as tank for Sol, Sanctum etc. I have had ppl wait for<BR>hours for me to come online to tank harder instances. A week or so ago in Sactum of Fear,<BR>the lvl 50 wizard was _amazed_ that I didn't lose aggro to him or the Dirge. Of course, <BR>that wiz knew how to play his class as well.<BR><BR>So, while I agree that there are issues with aggro management when grouped with other<BR>classes, I know how to manage them and live with them until the overhaul the are doing.<BR>Until then, go out there and have fun, and don't group with zerkers.</P> <P> </P>

[far]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AndorV wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Genagen wrote:<BR> <DIV>What is your problem, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=50873" target=top><SPAN>Smileonadog</SPAN></A> ? If you are crying because you are not able to hold aggro - AFAIK it is problem of your play. Not problem of your class. I am SK lvl 42 and I am able to work with aggro as guards on the same lvl. I did not see any guard on appropriate lvl holding aggro in better way than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have problem that zerks and bruiser can do it more easily? That is not a real problem. It will be tunned. Dont worry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just enjoy your play.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My point exactly. Also, on higher levels it will be your reputation in the community that<BR>decides if you will be selected as tank for Sol, Sanctum etc. I have had ppl wait for<BR>hours for me to come online to tank harder instances. A week or so ago in Sactum of Fear,<BR>the lvl 50 wizard was _amazed_ that I didn't lose aggro to him or the Dirge. Of course, <BR>that wiz knew how to play his class as well.<BR><BR>So, while I agree that there are issues with aggro management when grouped with other<BR>classes, I know how to manage them and live with them until the overhaul the are doing.<BR>Until then, go out there and have fun, and don't group with zerkers.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>or monks.... or assassins... in fact why not just solo.</DIV>

[Baelzharon]

Agro is a groups responsibility and not just the tanks. I've had no problem holding agro except for when I get a trigger happy nuker who wants to fire off their biggest nuke on a mob I'm not targetting. I've had zerkers higher lvl then me in a group while I MT and they've never pulled agro off me. In all the cases where I have ever seen a problem with agro it's when someone in the group is not doing what they were supposed to do. Examples being, a chanter casting group power regen buffs mid-fight, a scout trying to burn their power on another mob in a group (not the main target), a healer who's spam removing bad effects of players, nukers who open up with their biggest baddest nuke, and a 2nd tank who's "offtanking" another mob for no reason at all. Something else that I've noticed causes issues is when people lazily just autoattack off me and they pull agro off grouped mobs sometimes. In a group mob situation any good tank will not be just spamming 1 target, you need to spread the hate around. When lazy group members just autoattack they'll hit mobs that are fresh while the tank switches targets. We have 2 direct taunts, 1 AE and a load of group buffs, and spamming them all on 1 mob in a group of mobs is a waste. If people in your group are doing this you need to tell them to make an assist hotkey, and you yourself need to make a hotkey to designate a main target. Situational awareness also comes into play. And this effects all tanks, and not just an SK. If you are fighting mobs that can stifle, stun or mez chances are you're not going to be able to taunt as well, so the group needs to tone down their DPS, and be alert. Finally... Over the last 2 months as I've leveled up from 1-40 all I've seen here on the boards is SK's complaining they can't MT, they can't group, they can't hold agro, their DPS sucks, our pets suck, our horse sucks, SKs suck, (insert Guardian Envy of the Week). I must be doing something revolutionary with my character because I MT great, hold agro fine (except for buggy zones where all tanks have issues), off tank in raids great, and in general have a fun time playing every day. I love how versatile my SK is, and depending on how I feel like playing I can do it. Imagine how boring it must be for Guardians who will always just be a tank. We can be the MT, 2nd tank, or pure DPS in a group. This is why I chose the SK and so far up to now I've not been let down or pigeon holed into a certain role. <div></div>

[Ando]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> farbe wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AndorV wrote:<BR> <P>So, while I agree that there are issues with aggro management when grouped with other<BR>classes, I know how to manage them and live with them until the overhaul the are doing.<BR>Until then, go out there and have fun, and don't group with zerkers.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>or monks.... or assassins... in fact why not just solo.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Monks are so uncommon anyway. Maybe not on your server, but certainly on mine. You certainly<BR>don't need 2 tanks in a group.</P> <P>I have heard lots of complaints about assassins from others too. I think they are one of the classes<BR>that can point out aggro (a blame ability) and if used poorly, that will cause aggro issues regardless<BR>who the tank is. It's a special ability that the player has to know when to use. They have abilities to<BR>lose aggro as well. With correct use, they can help you gain even more aggro.</P>

[Vak Mallek]

My thoughts exactly.  Good post Baelzharon.  <span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

[BaronFun]

<div></div>Thought I'd put in my 2 cp - I agree that our aggro is messed up, but as a 50 SK I rarely lose aggro (except to our brigand, but his ruse hits for over 1500 points - tough to work against that).  I also don't think 'zerkers should be nerfed, but I do think that the SK is the read-headed stepchild of the EQ2 universe (this may SOUND like guardian envy, but it's not intended to be) as the brawler class gets insane DPS, the guardian class gets dual-wield ability and use of bows, while we get to be somewhere in the middle - ok dps, heavy armor, pets, HT.  I think our REAL problem stemmed from the silly lvl20 horse - so MANY people made SKs JUST for the horse, maybe SOE wanted to "balance" us by other mitigating factors... The best point made so far, and one which I agree with, is that SKs seemed to be INTENDED to be the off-tank, with guards as the MT and brawlers as DPS.  I made an SK INTENDING to be off-tank, but when our guard quit at level 20, I got thrust into the MT role. I think this whole issue would be solved if they gave us back the Hold the Line set of spells.  That way we'd have the OPTION of pulling all the aggro if needed, but wouldn't have to use it all the time, and thereby fulfill our role as the off-tank. Just brainstorming here, of course.  OVERALL, I love bein an SK;  just wish we had a little easier time holding aggro =) (mostly because I'm lazy, of course) <div></div><p>Message Edited by BaronFunke on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:24 AM</span>

[Ixnay]

<P>Aggro is relavtive - specifically to your class level, and who you are playing with.  All you folks in the 35 to 40 range saying that I must suck because you hold agro great so why can't I will see.  I held agro pretty good at your level also using Zarn's Plague Cloud and Shriek also - because those are either balanced nicely or actually overpowered for your level when compared to what is available to other classes at the same level.  But things don't always stay the same - the ability of other classes to generate agro seem to increase by geometric progression while ours stays linear at the high 30's early 40's level.  Let's see how well you tank in perma or everfrost in a few more levels when you are trying to tank with a zerker or other high agro melee player in group.</P> <P>And like I've said a few times before in this post:  the only thing I'm dissatisfied about our class is our ability to generate and hold agro.  We suck at this compared to many other classes at my level.  You'll see.  All I'm saying is that some of you guys should consider getting a full picture before deciding you know everything in advance.  I love my sk and wouldn't play any other class in game.</P> <P>And please, don't relate what I'm saying to guardians.  A guardian's primary job is to tank.  I always defer tanking in a group to a guardian of equal or slightly lower level than me, even if their equipment is not as good, because that's their job and I respect that.  I would also never try and MT a raid mob (unless there was no other option), and I'm not suggesting we should be on par with guardians when it comes to tanking epic/raid mobs.  I'm just saying we shouldn't suck so bad at holding agro at my level in comparison to other classes, especially when a low 40's zerker using only auto attack can take agro from a high 40's sk who is spamming every available adept 3 taunt.</P> <P>I've said what I wanted to say in this post and am done here.  No need to comment further.</P> <P>Thanks.</P><p>Message Edited by Smileonadog on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:54 PM</span>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jjlo69 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ixnay<BR></DIV> <DIV>Well i have my current taunts at adept 1 and dont have any problems holding hate unless the dps lay into it too early but usally i dont have any issues.. heres all i do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. pull with Dreadful Wrath (master 1)</DIV> <DIV>2. Taunt HO</DIV> <DIV>3. Buff (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>4. use the phara mark(adept 1) </DIV> <DIV>5  Dmg asborb Mark(adpet 1) </DIV> <DIV>6. Taunt ae/dot/lifetap/pet regent spell/sheild bash or 2hd weapon agi debuff</DIV> <DIV>7   repeat </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i have a caster ing the group that like to open up dmg before i get a chance to taunt i FD them a few times then they get the hint to let me do my thing before they lay into the mob. Also your a gnome SK right may i ask what your STR is at cause taunt and dmg is STR based if i rember right maybe you need a few more STR items to help you out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>zordie</DIV> <DIV>43 Ogre SK</DIV> <DIV>permafrost</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah I said I wasn't going to post again but just wanted to answer his question.  From my profile linked above:  Strength 164, which is unbuffed, and not even self buffed.</P> <P>I even have rescue at adept 3 lol.  And you mention FD bud, isn't that no longer affective on players your level, or did I over look something?  Last time I tried it, GE will make a group member lay down, but won't remove agro from them - meaning the mob will continue to hit them and kill them because they can't move out of the way.</P> <P>Thanks, y'all have a good day.</P>

[Vitriol]

<P>My usual groupies include a guardian and a warlock.  When I was about 5 levels above both of them, I lost agro only to the warlock who not only is a perpetual overnuker, but is someone who thinks "I have agro.  Ah, well.  Nuke it harder so it dies faster."  When they got within 2 levels of me, I would lose agro to both of them and the guardian wasn't even taunting.  Result is, of course, I get to use those nifty AC transfer spells now :smileysad: .  Guardian guildie recommended I buy the master 1 evasive manuevers.</P> <P>Saw an interesting thing happen last night while fighting Cragshell.  MT, a 42 Guardian, lost agro only once.  It wasn't to the overnuker either.  It was to the 40 Guardian who wasn't taunting.  Maybe the most interesting thing is that MT got agro back in about 3 seconds.  I never get agro back.</P>

[Margen]

<P> </P> <DIV> <P>I admit I am not at end game only midlevel, but we do have a problem with aggro IMHO.  While I usally can maintain aggro on a single mob .... but can still lose it if I blink at wrong time :smileywink: , and getting it back is a major pain.  On multimobs it becomes alot more difficult (up to a point it should be, but don't think as difficult as it is), and before I get the usual responses, yes I taunt, spam buff, debuff, and AOE attack.  But the main issue IMO is the fact to maintain that aggro we have to spend a lot of power in comparision of Guardians and Bezerkers, which makes the wait between fights longer and usually can cause annoyance with party if not friends.  </P> <P>As for comment I read about if grouping with a Bezerker or Guardian we have to give up tanking role.  I thought the idea was that the MT should be 1) the person that plays his class the best 2) has the best gear 3) HPs and AC, not which branch you took as a sub class.  </P> <P>Also for the comment you should never have more then one fighter based character in a group, shessh have some guts and don't min/max the game to freaking death.  Try something different then standard 1 tank 2 priest and 4 dps,  you might find game fun versus as a bloody job.</P> <P>V/R</P> <P>Blackoath 31st Troll Shadow Knight</P></DIV>

[Diri]

<P>As a lvl 50 SK I can only tell you that tanking and holding aggro in exp groups has not been a problem for me with only a couple of exceptions. Yes, it does take some skill to hold aggro-that's why i picked SK hoping they would be harder to play than guardians <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We can tank regular mobs just fine and if people are paying attention we can hold aggro just as easily as guardians (though, at a much higher power cost). Recapturing aggro (at least for our class) is, however, a huge problem-that needs to be addressed.</P> <P>The problem is my SK abilities don't offer anything unique to the epic raids. Only guardians are really good at tanking three arrow epic mobs-we really go down fast in those encounters, so we really can't save a raid if the only guardian MT goes down. Zerkers and monks can offtank double arrow epic mobs just as well as us, our damage isn't stellar even with the pet (though we do nice dps against groups of mobs) and our buffs don't work outside of group (and MT will be grouped with another buffer instead of you) while our damage abilities drain a lot of power, with lifetaps being very weak (they don't generate enough aggro to matter either), and harm touch (should read: tickle touch) line (that also does not generate much of aggro) being laughed at by scouts who dish out 1500 points hits on a much shorter timer and at relatively low power cost. Our gear is either the same or subpar to zerkers and guardians.</P> <P>Our lvl 50 AC debuff is very nice but isn't a game breaker-I participated on many successful raids before I hit 50 so I can tell you it did not make that much of a difference to be highly sought by raid leaders. And we aren't that good at recapturing aggro either.</P> <P>So, why would anyone value a class that is merely an average tank when there are enough of zerkers and guardians to choose from? </P>

[jjlo69]

<DIV> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xiene wrote:<BR> <P>...mind if i ask a question.</P> <P>Exactly how much power you got left after fight :p?</P> <P>All I did was just taunt n dps, throw in some dreadful wraths n pariah's mark.   But Ward n ..whatever you keep doing is totally unneccessary.  It's xp group how do you expect yourself to keep up with your power if you dont have breeze ?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>if this question is for me i usally eat about 1 to 2  bubbles a fight and get it back with a drink as i pull the next. Provisioners(sp) help out there f i dont have a chanter in ther group and  the ward is a buff which does help plus it absorbs alot of dmg helping the healer out with less heals helping you keep the hate off them.    </P> <P> </P> <P>zordie<BR>43 sk</P></DIV>

[jjlo69]

<P>ixnay,</P> <P>" And you mention FD bud, isn't that no longer affective on players your level, or did I over look something?"</P> <P> </P> <P>I used this twice in a group just this morning... it pull hate right back to me most although most groups dont like for you to use it cause it removes there buffs and it is <STRONG>not 100 percent</STRONG> so it the mob doesnt pull back to you then taunt/dps the hell out of it while they cant nuke/slash the hell out of it to rebuild hate. </P> <P> </P> <P>zordie</P> <P>43sk</P> <P> </P>

[far]

<DIV>I dont mean to dispparage the class because I do enjoy playing it, but my 2 points that I have tried to illustrate here are this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Power consumption for SK spells is out of whack, I realise that the tank will spend a larger percentage of power in any given encounter, but when I fill that qausi dps role I notice a beserker or guardian spends less power without any issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Our AE Aggro generation is poor and drops to downright weak when an enchanter is in the group (specifically right after pull when we are trying to keep above the breeze aggro generated by the enchanter and the time the incoming group of mobs has been locked down) , we need better aggro generating group buffs/ or AE taunts to maintain hate effectively (even when you do count our AE damage spells you walk smack into issue #1)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Single target mobs are rarely an issue, and the issues that do pop up tend to be bugged when a monk or zerker who does nothing will just grab aggro, while a pain getting it back (generally ward + disease cloud) and I hope will be fixed with upcoming patches, however upcoming patches will not address power consumption or AE aggro spells we already have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saying that a lack of another aggro stealing class on an individual server is like saying that not having a roof isnt an issue because its not raining. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an unguilded SK im tired of looking at guild apps that have NO crusaders in guild with comments like </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"</DIV> <DIV>The great guild X is currently looking from dedicated players level 47-50 with raid hrs during badunkadunk standard time playing hours, we are based out of Y but accept apps from either city, we look forward to meeting you, we are in specific need of priests, rogues and enchanters so we may be able to bend level requirements if you are in those classes.</DIV> <DIV>sorry we are not accepting apps from the following classes</DIV> <DIV>Necro</DIV> <DIV>Pal</DIV> <DIV>Sk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is all."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why does a guild have NO need for crusaders, why is there this perception that they are worthless? Shouldnt we serve some critical function?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are guilds that raiding tier 5 instanced zones and x3 mobs so they arent clueless.</DIV>