No raids for the Shadowknights.

[Kanfo]

Just recently I applied to a very effective raid guild on my server, the only currently doing truly end-game encounters currently.  The following is an excerpt from my conversation with the guild leader after applying, with the only changes being the person's name, and some marginal fixes to formatting to allow readability.  Footers and headers have been included to prove authenticity. <blockquote>(111188867<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 26 20:57:58 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"its an interesting situation we are in fox ill be straight up with u" (1111888689)[Sat Mar 26 20:58:09 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"I'm all ears." (1111888804)[Sat Mar 26 21:00:04 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"we are currently looking for 1 more MT" (1111888815)[Sat Mar 26 21:00:15 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"and we have plenty of off tanks and etc" (1111888821)[Sat Mar 26 21:00:21 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"Understood." (1111888887)[Sat Mar 26 21:01:27 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"do you understand where i am coming from?" (1111888896)[Sat Mar 26 21:01:36 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"I do.  A raid's got only so many spots." (1111888922)[Sat Mar 26 21:02:02 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"Bring too many off tanks, and you've got no damage to speak of" (1111888930)[Sat Mar 26 21:02:10 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"And SK's, currently, are no main tank" (111188893<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 26 21:02:18 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"nods" </blockquote> The only thing keeping me in the game after 50 is raiding and possible end game content.  I now find myself guildless and unable to adventure with my friends. I know that a threat will be out of place, so I won't threaten.  I'll promise.  If shadowknights are not addressed for functionality and actual usefulness, then I will lose interest in the game. I've spent 50 levels (most of which I thoroughly enjoyed) leveling past interesting content, fun encounters, tough situations, and some truly hair-pullingly difficult quests.  I've had a blast, guys, don't get me wrong, and, for the most part, I enjoyed being a shadowknight.  I've also been a member of one of the best guilds on my server, and it's only because I wanted to see the raiding content (before current raiding content was no longer current) that I left them in search of a way to experience that.  I live for the thrill of the hunt, the sights from the top, the gorgeous places that can only be reached by killing the dragon to get there. But now, after 50 levels with that dream in mind, I've hit the glass ceiling of class imbalance.  I love this game, but I don't love it so much that I will start another character from scratch just to see the ending. <blockquote>(1111893142)[Sat Mar 26 22:12:22 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"Hey, before I actually go and make this post, one last question.  If, *IF*, Shadowknights brought something to a raid that was useful to the raid, and they did better than any other class, would there be any doubt that I would be able to join?" (1111893163)[Sat Mar 26 22:12:43 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"since we only have 1 sk then ya" </blockquote> <div></div>

[Shalori]

<DIV> <DIV>A few comments come to mind from the dialouge that you have just shown us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#1: Yes perceptions of SK's are pretty bad. I mean most people view us as a class that is on the short bus. On that note I must say that I think that guild leader has a very narrow mind. Did he offer you a chance to prove your worth? Did you ask him if you could have that chance? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#2: SK's can be highly effective in raiding situations. Our AC debuff at Adept III is invaluable in helping those poking classes to output more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#3: Screw that guild and move to one who is willing to give you a chance. Sure it may take you a bit to find one that is home, but if I can do it I know anyone can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am just so sick and tired of hearing "SK's are so [Removed for Content].." or "We need a boost by the Devs to be more effective.." I am sure you have great skills you are ready to prove I just wish everyone would spend more time out there busting their rumps to prove everyone wrong than crying here on the boards.</DIV></DIV>

[pyroglyph]

<P>Your situation sucks, for sure.</P> <P>However, you more or less invited that attitude yourself. You even said it yourself:</P> <P> "and SK's, currently, are no main tank."</P> <P>My guildmates are frequently surprised when I tank out fights they would have normally run away from long before.</P> <P>In my honest opinion, we are great tanks. A few broken skills are certainly annoying as hell, but they do not change that fact.</P> <P>If you find yourself somehow...lacking, after the remarks from some fool guild leader, then maybe the class itself isn't your problem.</P> <P>As for "functionality and actual usefulness", you're only as functional and useful as you make yourself be.</P>

[Kanfo]

Let me reiterate here guys: This is the only guild on the server to have a chance at the high end raids.  With that in mind, how long do I have to wait to chat with Lord Nagafen?  How long do I have to wait to see the undead Lady Vox in all her glory?  How long do I have to wait to teach that uppity Vaz'Gok a lesson or two? I understand that raiding is a waiting game.  However, I'd rather be waiting for spawns, waiting for the right forces to log in, wait for the buffing to be done, and even then, wait for the assist to be called. Why do I have to wait for Shadowknights to be given a role? I haven't limited my thinking.  I'm willing to try everything on a raid, from using our AC debuff to disease debuff harmtouches to jumping on the mob's back.  Hell, I'll call up gnoll illusion and dance naked to keep its attention. But how can I do exactly that if I'm not given the chance?  I'm not asking for an overhaul of the class.  I don't want to damage more than wizards, I don't want to heal alongside the paladins, I don't want to tank like a guardian.  Is it too much to ask to have a role that shadowknights fit? You both act as if you've never run across this before.  I can and do play my class to the fullest, and when I've got the opportunity, I rush headlong into new things just to try them out.  However, there ARE imbalances and deficiencies in the class.  If you deny that, then I'd suggest you take a very close look at the other tanks when you group with them.  I'm not going to pick out other particular classes to compare us too.  I don't want to turn this into a hate bash of other classes that *are* as they should be, nor do I want to see those other classes changed in any way.  I see all of the other fighter classes with their own little niches, things which they can do better than anyone else, and I feel cheated that after 50 levels, my character still hasn't discovered his. <div></div>

[Seolta]

<P>Ok,</P> <P>We DO have alot of strengths, and some people don't realise this...</P> <P>but at the end of the day EQ2 is super dependent on min/maxing due to the 24player restriction on raids.</P> <P>You can pie in the sky all you want, but that's the reality.</P> <P>The TRICK is to BE that 1 SK in the guild. Heh.</P>

[Toogel]

<P>It should also be noted that you are on Antonia Bayle... a roleplay preferred server.</P> <P>The reason there is only one guild on the server that has that capability is because no one else is really in a hurry to do it...  In my humble opinion if you are just looking for a raiding guild you are on the wrong server to begin with as your options are severly limited on who will take you in.  Sure you could wait a few months or so, maybe eventually a second guild will decide they like to raid alot more, but in the end your chances of finding a spot in a raid on a roleplay preferred server are pretty hard... Halcyon Affinity, the one hardcore guild must have it hard with all the people who want to be in a hardcore raid guild, but the server isnt one to recognize alot of guilds like them.</P>

[Eberan]

<P>There are quite a few highend encounters where an SK will have the upper hand as an MT, this is mainly due to our disease/poison mitigration, which is higher than any other tank class due to our selfbuff and group buff.</P> <P>We also manage aggro on multiple mobs better than most classes due to an extensive array of AE skills.</P> <P>Not to mention we make excellent backup tanks, due to our single target buffs.</P> <P>There is no class that is better suited as the MT of EQ2, all of the tank classes serve their purpose, it simply depends on the encounter your fighting. If your guild does not recognize that, Im afraid it wont go very far.</P> <P> </P>

[Xiene]

<DIV>Guardian/Berserker is better than us at holding a group of mob.. not us..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well of course we can take damage as good as guardian n berserker does, as well as other tank class.  Sometimes even better as you state we have better poison and diesease mitigation.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I am not trying to trash our class.  I am telling you we need a more efficient way of holdin aggro.</DIV>

[Valam]

<DIV>I'm quite a desperated SK too, even if only in mid 30 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and i see too that people see us as poor tanks, even if most of the time is the player skill to make a good tank and not just the template...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>said that i mostly agree that for my experience we are probably the most useless tank class</DIV> <DIV>our mitigation and avoidance are lower than other "armored" tanks due to equip and skills. Even our dps seem to be on par if not inferior to them (looking at some parsers i found around) and our utility spells are not too bad, but imo just on par with other "armored" tank ones</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that probably our debuffs are our tank peculiarity, but due to the fact that 2 identical debuffs of different player don't stack you just need 1 SK in a support role to get the most benefits of the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think a good idea to improve our usefulness in a group will be improving our lifetaps giving them a efficent power/healt/damage conversion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lifetaps are one of out mostly characteristic ability, and we have many lines that include them.</DIV> <DIV>As MT the SK will be able to make easier the work of a cleric healing himself with direct lifetaps and still doing decent damage,</DIV> <DIV>If a guardian can absorb more damage due to mitigation and a monk can avoid it, the SK will be able to "dissipate" it balancing is lower defence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good lifetaps can be helpfull even in a support role, the SK can put interv on the MT or the healers and proceed to "dissipate" their damage... (to do that the interv of the SK should be probably reduced in dmg % absorbed)</DIV> <DIV>Note that this will be very different than the task of an healer as the SK will not actually heal the comrades, but he will absorb their damage and "slowly" heal during the fight with a sort of offensive healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can also include in the equation the spell that gives lifetaps to all the group, or wards with lifetap, that can act more as a sort of active healing, helping even more the "true" healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With a revamp like that the SK will be more usefull both in small group, where as MT can actually be a sort of "self" support healer or absorbing the MT damage, and in raid group with a SK doing debuff and group lifetaps and 1 or more SK acting as dissipators of damage for the MT while still doing damage to the target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>other option to make the SK more usefull will be for sure to upgrade the DPS and/or the defence (mabye crusaders can have a bit more avoidance than warriors to balance their lower mitigation), but as we have some very peculiar skills i will prefer to make them really usefull and not just fancy abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sorry for bad english.</DIV>

[PaqMan]

When I have been in groups, I have tanked pretty well. Even got positive comments on it, so I'm happy. I have also been the one assisting the main tank and that have also worked nice. However, I don't demand to tank, or even expect it if I see a guardian, whenever I join a group. I see it like this: The one person/class in the group/raid who are best suited to stand in front and take the beating(based on class, level, skill, group form) should do it, the rest will do all they can to keep him alive(heals..), handle adds/save the healers(other plate people), or just do lots of damage on the mob the tank poke his sharp stick with(scouts/wiz'es/...) IF I am the most suitable one to tank I should tank, else I'd gladly leave that to the guardian/paladin/whatever and do my best to support him in poking the mob to death. Its all dependable to the group I think. I'm only level 25 yet, but this far its going well. I concentrate on keeping my gear good, do my best in encounters and having fun, what more can I ask for ,-) I will see how it gets when I grow up, ie level 40's or more <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[moorie27]

<P>ive been looking about in other forums and it would seem that all tank types are having a proplem keeping agro on epic mobs...yes even guardians.</P> <P>when a mob has that much HP and takes so so long to kill its gotta be hard to hold agro the whole fight.</P> <P>i do think SoE should up our threat abit...but come on now! if they make it too easy it would be boring.</P> <P>Attack target.</P> <P>Spam taunts.</P> <P>Collect loot.</P> <P>who wants to be a 1 key wonder? not i for one!</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>im a bruiser guys, i shoot off my mouth alot in alot of places,</P> <P>but the server doesnt have much to do with it, niether does the guild.</P> <P>In a raiding guild= the perfect setup has to be in line, because some fights require NO mistakes.</P> <P>so as another poster said, the MIN/Maximizing has to be in place. 1 sk is enough - buff stacking, thats his primary role in raids, not dps, not MTing - buff stacking - yep thats it- </P> <P>now im not trying to be asanine about this. thats just the way it is. a zerker or paladin makes a better offtank, but in the same respect a shadowknights dps output isnt on par with my bruiser even half the time...</P> <P>so with that being said... that the plight that the OP is experiencing... maybe the class does need an overhaul, because at present in a strictly PVE game, its going to ALWAYS be about mix/max if you are given all the available components to do so.</P> <P>when you as a shadowknight form a group- after you have a healer... do you look for another warrior? of course not - you fill dps slots with the best and highest level of compatibility to ensure the longest most effective play time, </P> <P>if we got a wiz, okay lets see if we can find a bard, get a bard, lets see if we can find a templar, and so on in that fashion. it has to be a progression in that manner - we all do it - whether you look at it that way or not. we dont just throw 4 fighter types in a group with a healer and expect it to work long term..</P>

[Eatu]

<DIV>you know its great to hear some people being positive about sk's. but what epic mob tanking comes down to is DEFENSE skill. this is coming from a 50 sk in a top 3 server guild that raids 54+ tripple up x4 mobs. my role has always been as a "cleanup" tank, i.e. kill off the non named mobs in named encounters.  do i blame them? no. whY? well lets look at the numbers. currently w/ malevolent circle (my defense buff abiility...and only one at that) my defense at adept 1 is 266. not bad, but i was currently 2nd tanking to a guardian who still had his main defense ability at apprentice 1 (why , i dont know?) and his defense skill was around 288. that is 22 DEFENSE differnce. which translates to about 4 1/2 lvls.  so if i was theareticaly tanking at defense skill of a 50, hed be tanking as if a lvl 54 1/2. thats a HUGE diffence. now image if he had all his defense skils adept 3 (he told me he has 2 or 3 that increase defense), im sure he can get it probably another 3 or 4 ponts.  should a guardian be a better pure tank then a crusader? sure... but by 5 lvls? thats a little nuts IMO.  its not even a fair comparision anymore.  I have currently started power leveling my lvl 16 wariror to make a guardian, just so i feel like i can have a chance to tank one day, because i hate to say it, but SK just cant tank epic encounters in any way, no matter how optimisticly you want to look at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leon Soulbringer</DIV> <DIV>50 shadowknight</DIV> <DIV>Unrest</DIV>

[DUNN]

<DIV>I am sorry to hear your plight, i saw this coming, over 2 months ago. No one wanted us and still don't.. Unlike you though i was able to secure the 1 Sk slot in my guild.  I raid every day but i am the only SK in the guild and sneak in all the time.. I am in a good guild that allows me to participate i do get to pull and be MA but i know i will never be MT if we are not fixed or at least given something to compensate.  I am sure I could tank the mobs but I also have 7 tanks infront of me before i will get picked.   So for now I buff debuff and cast my pet in raids.  I hope they do dsomething because there isn't that many of us left at 50.   At least active ones.  </DIV>

[Xiene]

<DIV>I doubt SK tanking ability has some problem.. I have seen my guildie SK who was suppose to offtank got his avoidance buffed up to 100%.  Guardian probably has more self defense buff by 3 -5 points.. but what you're saying about buffing up to 4 to 5 levels higher than the unbuff defense.  Unless they receive some outside buff NO WAY they can do that.</DIV>

[Kunathar]

Personally, I would tell this Guild Leader to kiss my purple Dark Elven [Removed for Content] and find another Guild. Narrow minded MIN/MAX'rs can seriously all kiss it too... Consider this post a rant-reply. <div></div>

[Baelzharon]

So, we're not the "perfect" tank against high DPS mobs, but we offer more to the raid then a simple meat tank. If I've read correctly over the last few weeks all the comments and rants about SK tanking in the end game it pretty much boils down to. a. We can tank the end game mobs, but guardians can tank them slightly better. b. If we're not tanking we offer up some great buffs/debuffs and can offtank very well. Some buff stacking issues call for use of only 1 SK at a time using the main AC debuff. c. We can provide some decent DPS depending on the weapon used of course. d. We're very versatile as far as tanks are concerned, and only narrow minded Zerg like raiders don't see it. Listen, I've raided for years in EQ1 and it all boiled down to how much DPS can be pushed out before the healers are out of power. If we're not capable of holding agro and giving the raid a chance to kill the mob then by all means we have a problem, however I am not seeing this from people posting here about SKs and end game tanking. All I do see is people whining about the perception we can't. I'd like to see some hardcore  facts, and not any of this wishy washy opinionated diatribe. Let's see some parses where Guardian -vs- SK against the same end game mob and see what the end results are. Let's get some honest statistics here and get to the truth. Can SKs tank end game mobs, or are guild leaders just too narrow minded and throw Guardians at everything because that's what they "think" will work? <div></div>

[Quilli]

<P>Why would you guys want to join a guild that cares.  And why would a guild only allow 1 SK in.  What if that one SK gets sick, has a life and wants to go out with his wife or GF.</P> <P> </P> <P>My advice is join a good guild that is not uptight, problem solved.  And yes they do exist even on AB (although you might have to RP to join the good ones that do raid.  But why play on AB if you don't want to)</P> <P> </P> <P>Having said all that we still need changes.  But I doubt in Real life you would want to hang out with people like that so why do it in game.</P>

[LobaLobaLo]

<P>You need to get out of that guild.  The guild/raid leader is a fool, and you need to speak up for your self.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>lol, its nice to take the forceful approach, but thats not the way it works. when you take all that hard work and time to get to level 50 you want to be compensated for it by being desired on some level, heck any level would be nice.</P> <P>as a uber main tank, as a plate wearing dps cannon, something...</P> <P>But when fighting a raid mob you want to make your life as easy as possible. Thats as simple as putting together the componenets that = success. </P> <P>Im sure there is some guild out there that raids casually and takes the risk of throwing one too many of one thing into the pot... But then again MORE THAN LIKELY they dont raid every night or even in the frequency that would merit playing frequently or on a semi freqeunt basis. </P> <P>If you are level 50 and wont be doing anything but raiding for the most part on a nightly basis trying to perfect your main toon to an extent... you would min/maximize too. Its not about the guild, its about what it takes to get the job done. Within the tools that SOE provides, not something of our choosing.</P>

[Uggli]

Next time the leader tells you there is a situation. Tell him your sorry he has to step down so others can go. Maybe next time their will be a slot for him.  You earned the right to be on the raid I assume.  Your not new to the guild right?  You have done your part in adding to the guild.  You have every right to be on the raid.  If they want to make it "fair" for min/max bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], they need a rotation list of those that will be rotated fairly. And min/max guilds might attain the end game fast, but no one thinks highly of them for what they have attained. <div></div>

[LobaLobaLo]

<P>Sorry Sage.  You can't win if you don't play the game.  Likewise, your gear and knowledge of the game suffer with each raid you're told to sit out.  If you want a top-notch SK (or any class), you bring him along, find a way to make him useful, get him loot and raid experience, and hope that a couple key tanking issues are eventually changed.</P> <P> </P> <P>Raids aren't such fragile things.  Min/maxers are full of sh*t.  It's about decent players supporting eachother.</P>

[The_Witchfind]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>If you are level 50 and wont be doing anything but raiding for the most part on a nightly basis trying to perfect your main toon to an extent... you would min/maximize too. Its not about the guild, its about what it takes to get the job done. Within the tools that SOE provides, not something of our choosing.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You make it sound more like a job than a game.  Isn't having fun more important?</DIV>

[Darkaren]

<DIV>WHile the shadowknight is not extreme DPS it can be VERY useful in a raid. In a MT group, it assumes role of back up/DPS. Look, heres why we are very valuable in this role</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We have good MT buffs. </DIV> <DIV>       Calculated evasion, Unholy Strength, Gift of armament.</DIV> <DIV>                  All three should be UPgraded to AD3 or higher if you are in a raid guild. </DIV> <DIV>2. We can help out warding the MT, giving healers a break, plus the ward gives the tank a small DPS boost. </DIV> <DIV>                  </DIV> <DIV>3.. Debuff</DIV> <DIV>                 Siphon Strenght, while may not give US a boost, it defiantely Debuffs the target. </DIV> <DIV>                 also the AC debuff at lvl 50. Its really great. </DIV> <DIV>4.  Attack efficiency</DIV> <DIV>                 </DIV> <DIV>                </DIV>

[Darkaren]

<DIV>please delete this post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Darkaren on <span class=date_text>03-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 AM</span>

[Darkaren]

<DIV>WHile the shadowknight is not extreme DPS it can be VERY useful in a raid. In a MT group, it assumes role of back up/DPS. Look, heres why we are very valuable in this role</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We have good MT buffs. </DIV> <DIV>       Calculated evasion, Unholy Strength, Gift of armament.</DIV> <DIV>                  All three should be UPgraded to AD3 or higher if you are in a raid guild. </DIV> <DIV>2. We can help out warding the MT, giving healers a break, plus the ward gives the tank a small DPS boost. </DIV> <DIV>                  </DIV> <DIV>3.. Debuff</DIV> <DIV>                 Siphon Strenght, while may not give US a boost, it defiantely Debuffs the target. </DIV> <DIV>                 also the AC debuff at lvl 50. Its really great. </DIV> <DIV>4.  Attack efficiency</DIV> <DIV>                 Dreadful wrath is a great spell, it not only interupts teh target, but deals a great amount of damage every ten seconds. </DIV> <DIV>                 We can also fill in teh heroic opportunioties for the MT who is using mana on keeping agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With these abilities, its true that you may only need one shadowknight per raid. But its honestly a vital role to fill. Good luck</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Darkaren 50SK of Guk</DIV> <DIV>                </DIV>

[Kanfo]

Hmmm... Okay, not to disregard peoples opinions here, but as OP I'd like to bring this back to the issue. First, I never complained that I didn't enjoy my class; quite the opposite, really!  I've enjoyed being a Shadowknight.  My only *real* complaint is the lack of effectiveness on raiding targets, and to that effect... Second, we *don't* really offer much to a raid at this point.  Alot of people have pointed out abilities/strategies that will make the most of what we have, but that's not much compared to what might *replace* us.  Gift of Armament and Calculated Evasion are both *crusader* skills, which means Paladins (with equal damage, equal wards, and the ability to heal) can use.  We *can not* tank raid encounter mobs that are x3 or higher.  Believe it or not, your choice, but guardians get upwards of 280+ defense with the correct buffs, and shadowknights max out at 260ish.  That's a 4+ level difference.  Lastly, many of the things mentioned, while they work fantastic in xp or regular encounters, do *not* function against epic targets.  The only worthwhile things I've found to do to epic targets is cursed caress (go go -6 melee skills.)  Third, the above, taken from other classes that only see part of the story, leads to an image of uselessness, regardless of reality.  We're fighting against a mix of illusion and reality that's made an impenetrable shield against end game content, one that *I'M* having trouble breaching. Lastly, for those of you telling me to tell the guild leader off and go look elsewhere...  You're right.  If I didn't like anyone in the guild, or if there were other viable alternatives, that probably would be the best choice.  I wish I could.  Half of the guild's active members are personal friends of mine, ones who joined for mostly the same reason I want in.  These friends are most of the reason I'm *playing* the game.  Why would I want to (or have to) go elsewhere?  And as for telling the guild leader off...  So, let's change it around.  A person comes and apps to *your* guild, and after telling him that you can't accept him in the best interest of the guild, and he tells you that you're a [Removed for Content] for not taking him.  Regardless to say, beyond the fact that I respect the guy too much for that, it's a great way to get told to go play hide and go fornicate with myself. Here's a question for currently raiding SK's:  How do you find your usefulness on raids?  I mean, you throw up your buffs, toss a ward when the tank looks low, and pray for the best?  Is there some strategy that's been eluding us that might make the difference between enforced mediocrity and actually having a vital role?  Also, I *do* like our AC debuff, but does it stack with the Inquisitor debuffs of the same kind? <div></div>

[The_Witchfind]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kanfoxy wrote:<BR><BR>Half of the guild's active members are personal friends of mine, ones who joined for mostly the same reason I want in.  These friends are most of the reason I'm *playing* the game.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>With friends like those, who needs enemies?</DIV>

[Kanfo]

You're making the assumption that they're the ones in positions to make desicions.  The only leverage they have is leave or say "Sorry guy.  That really sucks."  I don't blame 'em for staying. <div></div>

[The_Witchfind]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kanfoxy wrote:<BR>You're making the assumption that they're the ones in positions to make desicions.  The only leverage they have is leave or say "Sorry guy.  That really sucks."  I don't blame 'em for staying.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>True friends would help you, instead of saying "tough luck".  That's the difference between friends and aquaintances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really aren't getting to go on any adventures with these "friends", then leaving the guild isn't going to make much difference to you.  Why not start a rival guild?</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>you people look at this like its a simple science when its not. some people do take this game seriously. if it were that simple then you being a sk mt, you woudlnt get [Removed for Content] when the [Removed for Content] group wizard starts pulling crap on his own and expecting you to get it off of em heh?</P> <P>no you would be peeved as hell, anyone would. So quit acting like you are just [Removed for Content] dory and everyon looks at this like a playful game and haha lala - im not crazy fanatical about it = but some people do take it SEMI serious on some levels. Why do you think experience debt has been virtually done away with??</P> <P>Its not about the guild leader, its not about the so called or not so called *friends* the Op's friends joined the guild at some point druing thier development of their chosen class and character, the OP isnt being penalized because they suck, not because she has bad gear, not because her friends arent behind her 100%, simply one reason is hindering the OP.</P> <P>THE CLASS.</P> <P>If she played a Templar or Inquis and was sitting at level 50, she would have gotten an auto invite. If she was a bard at level 50 with any kinda gear and competence, she wouldve gotten an invite.  If she was a Warlock who could prove they had a few adept threes in the right places, she wouldve been highly considered.</P> <P>As a guild leader you dont want to muddy your own waters when you know that you have a purpose, and a level 50 raiding guild is just that = a level 50 raiding guild. Why make the 1 sk in guild have to swap spots with the other one? whats the point - you are making turmoil within your own ranks, especially when there are a bunch of other classes that can ensure utility, mana regen, buffs, healing, dps, that apparently are already in guild.</P> <P>we know how it SOUNDS, but get back to reality. when people set out to make these guilds, thats how it works, for the best setup possible.</P>

[Baelzharon]

<span><blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:<p>you people look at this like its a simple science when its not. some people do take this game seriously. if it were that simple then you being a sk mt, you woudlnt get [Removed for Content] when the [Removed for Content] group wizard starts pulling crap on his own and expecting you to get it off of em heh?</p> <p>no you would be peeved as hell, anyone would. So quit acting like you are just [Removed for Content] dory and everyon looks at this like a playful game and haha lala - im not crazy fanatical about it = but some people do take it SEMI serious on some levels. Why do you think experience debt has been virtually done away with??</p> <p>Its not about the guild leader, its not about the so called or not so called *friends* the Op's friends joined the guild at some point druing thier development of their chosen class and character, the OP isnt being penalized because they suck, not because she has bad gear, not because her friends arent behind her 100%, simply one reason is hindering the OP.</p> <p>THE CLASS.</p> <p>If she played a Templar or Inquis and was sitting at level 50, she would have gotten an auto invite. If she was a bard at level 50 with any kinda gear and competence, she wouldve gotten an invite.  If she was a Warlock who could prove they had a few adept threes in the right places, she wouldve been highly considered.</p> <p>As a guild leader you dont want to muddy your own waters when you know that you have a purpose, and a level 50 raiding guild is just that = a level 50 raiding guild. Why make the 1 sk in guild have to swap spots with the other one? whats the point - you are making turmoil within your own ranks, especially when there are a bunch of other classes that can ensure utility, mana regen, buffs, healing, dps, that apparently are already in guild.</p> <p>we know how it SOUNDS, but get back to reality. when people set out to make these guilds, thats how it works, for the best setup possible.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> And it's great to know that those guilds are the minority. Just because Guild A can do some content this week doesn't mean that Guilds B-H won't be there next week with an SK tanking away. I guess it's a matter of perspective is all. The OP jumped ship from 1 guild and got shot down by another and he comes here and claims it's because of his class.  I think it might have something slightly more to do with the fact he is a nobody to this guild and has an unproven track record. The guild leader tells him he doesn't need an SK and now it's "OOOhhhh NooooOOOOs, SK's can't tank we suck!!".  Come on already, and stop drinking the the "Shadow Knight Tank Can't Tank" Coolaid. It's pretty confusing when I see some lvl 50 SKs saying they can tank these mobs, and others saying they can't, and another set are saying no one will let them even go near the raid in the 1st place. So, is it the Class, the player, the guild, the attitude of the guildleader or the lack of lets say "Skill" that is seperating some of you from the end game? I'm having a hard time believing that 100% of the problems some lvl 50 SKs are running into are purely because of the class. Some where there is the truth in all of this and hope someone can shed some light on it. </span><div></div>

[Uggli]

(111188867<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 26 20:57:58 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"its an interesting situation we are in fox ill be straight up with u" (1111888689)[Sat Mar 26 20:58:09 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"I'm all ears." (1111888804)[Sat Mar 26 21:00:04 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"we are currently looking for 1 more MT" (1111888815)[Sat Mar 26 21:00:15 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"and we have plenty of off tanks and etc" (1111888821)[Sat Mar 26 21:00:21 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"Understood." (1111888887)[Sat Mar 26 21:01:27 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"do you understand where i am coming from?" (1111888896)[Sat Mar 26 21:01:36 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"I do.  A raid's got only so many spots." (1111888922)[Sat Mar 26 21:02:02 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"Bring too many off tanks, and you've got no damage to speak of" (1111888930)[Sat Mar 26 21:02:10 2005] You tell Guild Leader,"And SK's, currently, are no main tank" (111188893<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 26 21:02:18 2005] aPC -1 Guild Leader:Guild Leader tells you,"nods" From the looks of it, you had too many tanks.   And as for SK's not being able to MT, I think reading through the posts here shows a wide range of opinion.  I think your selling your self short, but that's your own [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] problem. So it's not exactly a class issue.  It's more of a  guild issue.  Too mant tanks.   So reroll as something else to play with your "friends", and stop the crying. <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>just a few questions, and uggiley dont let your handle become you = thx. = anyway</P> <P>what guild do you know that isnt full of guardian types? or at least paladin types? </P> <P>what class do you know that couldnt tank a raid mob outside of a mage that couldnt tank half a raid with the right buff stacking and healers?</P> <P>_______________________</P> <P>so come on.,, understand before you assume its a whining fest or that someone is to blame. Guardians are like number 2-3 in most players of a certain class, theres a llist around on one of these threads somewhere of all the players of all the different classes.</P> <P>its fine that a shadowknight MT's the raid, heavy armor alone gives him that advantage, but i gaurantee its because there isnt a prevalent guardian in the guild...</P> <P> </P>

[DUNN]

<DIV>Look you people need to lighten up and understand her plight.  It is not that she wants to be a MT more so she wants to raid and currently SK are being left out from guilds because we are the bottom of the barrel.  Weather it be true or perception we are looked at [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] the worst plate class.  <FONT color=#ff6600>Also 95% of the guilds will pick other tanks than a SK when considering to add another tank to their guild.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I am in a raiding guild but guess what?  I am the only SK they have. I got in because their original SK stopped playing and they wanted to have at least 1 of each class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Go to these boards and read what other tank classes think of us.</FONT>  That is right we are a joke to them all, even the brawlers feel pitty for us.  Crap if you are 50 go tank a ^^ Blue solo see if you can do it with the best gear.  Then go watch a monk solo it effortlesly i am sure a bruiser can also.   Geez who is the better tank there? </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I have always said we can tank and are more than able to perform that duty.</FONT>  But we have the stigma that we are the worst tank and we can't shake it even if we do probe we are not.   What makes it worse is are utility in raids is not really appreciated. </DIV> <DIV>Ever seen a besreker take out a group of  adds  50+ sometimes even the ^^ mobs  with rampage.  Makes you feel small trust me. </DIV> <DIV>Paladin can rez the healer or mage that just dropped (you know how valueble that is in a raid?) and patch heal the tank. </DIV> <DIV>Can you stun an epic mob with every special  to stop the mob from casting like monks plus do their dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The things I bring to the raids is my debuff and buffs not my Dps .   Thing dies after an AE sometimes i am lucky and he survives 2; then I have to wait 30 sec to recast him then another AE kills it.   if i am not in the main group or with other melee buffs are worthless.</DIV> <DIV>I am lucky and thankfull that I am in a guild tha lets me raid everyday.  But i know that they will not accept another Sk while they have an existing one, why because there is no need for morre than 1. </DIV>

[Darkaren]

<DIV>something you should also consider. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure SK's can have 1 spot in raid. But the same is true for guardians.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are not much in teh way of DPS as far as im concerned, they must also have a difficult time finidng a guild that allows them into 3-4 guardian raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its purely class balance, SK's are important as one slot, but many, just isnt needed. </DIV>

[MF2K|Wh]

<DIV>Thought I would put my input in, from the standpoint of a raiding Shadowknight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently my guild raids almost every night, and I'm the only 50 SK, with one other lower SK that doesn't play as much. So far I have not had to sitout on any raids, but I've come close.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find that normally on raids, I am not in the MT group..so all my group ac buffs, wards, etc... are useless. Normally a monk is put in since thier ac buffs are wayyy better. So all of our so called awesome off tanking skills, are a waste on raids. Why waste a spot in the MT group for a SK, when u can put in a monk. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically I'm just dps. I have a master chest wep, and a few adept3s, so my dps isn't so bad, I can keep up or do more than most scouts usually.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm pretty lucky to be in the position I'm in being the only activly raiding SK, and the fact that we normally have exactly 24 players, or the lower levels end up having to sit out instead. Can't wait to see what happens when the rest of the scouts in my guild get 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heres what my guild had raiding last night....</DIV> <DIV>(kinda a weird setup, but we took out CL epic, feerott drakota, and antonica epic with no problems)</DIV> <DIV>2 Mages (1 warlock, and 1 Illusionist)</DIV> <DIV>4 Scouts (1 Brigand, 2 [Removed for Content], cant rember the other)</DIV> <DIV>4 or 5 healers</DIV> <DIV>the rest was all fighters (think we had 3 guardians, 2 monks, plus whatever else)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guild is pretty fighter heavy at the moment, which is why it's gonna rule when the rest of our dps classes get 50, and I'm sitting every raid out, but I guess we'll see.</DIV>

[DUNN]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkaren wrote:<BR> <DIV>something you should also consider. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure SK's can have 1 spot in raid. But the same is true for guardians.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are not much in teh way of DPS as far as im concerned, they must also have a difficult time finidng a guild that allows them into 3-4 guardian raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its purely class balance, SK's are important as one slot, but many, just isnt needed. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is right only 1 Sk is needed for a raid problem is; currently guilds are only taking 1 SK.  Compare that to their 3 guardians and 3 berserkers and 3 of every other tank class, does that seem strange back up for every other clas but SK.  People need to understand when we are not there we are not missed. Plain and simple.  .</DIV>

[comfortablynu]

<DIV>The most productive thing I ever do when I go raiding with my lvl 50 SK....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*drumroll*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>..... KITE DUTY!!! YAY</DIV>

[Ravencro]

<DIV>i seen alot of times throw a ward to MT to give a cleric time to heal - screw that - . SK are lifetakers not lifegivers aka pally. if the MT can maintain himself/herself  to help out the clerics why is he/she a MT of the raid. . crap my boss walk in. post later</DIV>

[The_Witchfind]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>Its not about the guild leader, its not about the so called or not so called *friends* the Op's friends joined the guild at some point druing thier development of their chosen class and character, the OP isnt being penalized because they suck, not because she has bad gear, not because her friends arent behind her 100%, simply one reason is hindering the OP.</P> <P>THE CLASS.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Absolute cobblers.  The class doesn't suck.  People are just so obsessed with what they learned in EQ1 that they can't separate the information from EQ2.  Honestly, I wish they'd called Shadowknights something else for EQ2 (I dunno, "Deathknight" or "Evilbloke"), anything that would dispell the stigma for blinkered fools.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't honestly believe that replacing a single character with a Shadowknight would make-or-break a raid.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>its about make or break when its a toss up between an extra healer and the shadowknight, it is about make or break when all the healers are OOP, and we didnt take the wiz who could shovel mana to the healer and took the shadowknight instead. it is make or break when the scout that couldve put out 250+ dps couldve ended the fight 5 minutes earlier before that bad set of rolls that caused the raid to wipe...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yeah, apparently you havent been on alot of raids or somn.. Cause like ive said before - in some cases and on certain raids, things have to be a step next to perfect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While all these things are situational, one thing remains constant: That on NEW raids, that on unexplored raids, you dont take whoever and go. You take the people that are NEEDED to get the job done. And presently, 5 other fighter classes make better offtanks than Shadowknights. (berserker haste buffs, paladin heals, monk/bruiser avoidance buff dps combos)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>to which a shadowknights lifetaps and dps dont compare on either end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ1 doesnt have anything to do with it. i dont like it - and i dont think its right. But stick to reality...</DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 AM</span>

[Bron]

If you read the dev tracker you'll see that in the next 2 "Big updates" they will be doing some serious class rebalancing, including a pass on the effect of the DEFENSE SKILL.  This skill is our biggest hurdle to main tanking over a guardian because they can invariable raise theirs much higher than we can. I know many of you will still complain that the game's been out for months, we shouldn't have had to wait this long, etc etc, but for those of you that can live in the future and not the past, I think this is a change to look forward to. <div></div>

[comfortablynu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkaren wrote:<BR> <DIV>WHile the shadowknight is not extreme DPS it can be VERY useful in a raid. In a MT group, it assumes role of back up/DPS. Look, heres why we are very valuable in this role</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We have good MT buffs. </DIV> <DIV>       Calculated evasion, Unholy Strength, Gift of armament.</DIV> <DIV>                  All three should be UPgraded to AD3 or higher if you are in a raid guild. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Calculate Evasion.... you mean the buff that says it gives 39% avoidance? Ever try casting it on someone? I just cast it on the brigand in my group, it gives 0.1% avoidance. Unholy strength is a nice buff, but I dont think it stacks well with a guardians self buffs, who happens to generally be the main tank. Gift of amament aint that great a buff either, certainly not worth giving up the buffs you could get form other classes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. We can help out warding the MT, giving healers a break, plus the ward gives the tank a small DPS boost. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Wards don't calculate AC, so the 500-600 it blocks is hardly anything, plus the dps boost only lasts while the ward is up, which is approximately, .5 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>                  </DIV> <DIV>3.. Debuff</DIV> <DIV>                 Siphon Strenght, while may not give US a boost, it defiantely Debuffs the target. </DIV> <DIV>                 also the AC debuff at lvl 50. Its really great. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I'll give ya, the AC debuff is pretty nice. Siphon Strenght however, not worth casting, 15 str is nothing to an epic mob. You honestly ever noticed it make a difference?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Attack efficiency</DIV> <DIV>                 Dreadful wrath is a great spell, it not only interupts teh target, but deals a great amount of damage every ten seconds. </DIV> <DIV>                 We can also fill in teh heroic opportunioties for the MT who is using mana on keeping agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>We are not attack efficient at all. We can keep up a pretty high dps, for a short period of time. Aside from dreadful wrath and like 2 other spells, our attacks are very INefficient. For example, look at dreadful wrath and plague sword. Plague sword does less damage, costs more mana, and has a longer recast. And as for heroic oppurtunities, thats nothing that another class couldnt do.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With these abilities, its true that you may only need one shadowknight per raid. But its honestly a vital role to fill. Good luck</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Darkaren 50SK of Guk</DIV> <DIV>                </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by comfortablynumb on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 AM</span>

[priwog]

i must been lucky since ive never had someone say sorry your no use your a sk we want a tank but thats mainly down to mindset people your with i guess, the guild your talking about to me dont seem worth the hassle worrying about if you got 24 people i dont see why they think a mage would make more difference to you at lv50 if your in smaller group i would expect issues over someone who could mez etc which used to get in dark age camelot sorry we dont want tank we want someone who can mez, but when you got 24 people going after something so what. im lv30 and not had any probs with sk so far but im not a stat watcher i hit things so dont know about whats broken not working right etc.

[Devi]

<DIV>Sorry to be another one to tell you this, but the guild leader really seems to be a little bit of an [Removed for Content]. Having a guildie beg him for a spot in a raiding party must do wonders for his ego. :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean, we all play this game to enjoy it and have a bit of fun right? The way I see it, this bloke makes you feel dissapointed and makes you wish you'd have went with another class. That, indeed, is not a true friend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd hook up with anyother guild mate. And that doesn't even mean you can't still team up with your previous 'friend' from time to time.</DIV>

[ghosthamm]

<DIV>    SageMarrow is dead on target. Yes there are people who take the "game" to seriously, and should lighten up cause the game is suppose to be fun.  But dying isnt fun either and nobody wants to take the time to set up a raid just to wipe, when they could have taken another subclass in our spot and possibly won the battle. everything we can do someone else can do it better; tanking, dps, warding, buffs.  We bring little to the table. Winning is fun, people like to win, and I can understand why we'd be sitting on the sideline.  We need to bring something to the table, we need a buff line that actually seriously contributes to the group to make us more desirable plain and simple.</DIV>

[Kanfo]

Figured I'd better stop back in for a few *Stretch/yawn*  Mmmm, nice week of hiatus, got some work done, spent time with loved ones, all that jazz.  :3 Just to reply to a few things here: First, if you're hoping to get me riled up or start a flame war with your complaints about whining/[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing/moaning, or "hidden" reasons for me not being accepted, please refrain.  The last thing I need right now is memebers of my own class telling me that I'm just whining, and if you'll read *yet again*, you're realize that never once did I complain about regular grouping.  It is *simply* the fact that we have little to offer the 24 man raid that has me sad. And, just to set the record straight, as femenine as I might seem, I *am* a guy (and no, I don't play a female either) Second, given the choice between having to make an entirely new guild full of friends, and just calling it quits, I'll probably choose the latter.  Also, given the frequency with which this guild raids, I don't get to spend time with the friends that have joined it.  Lastly here, I don't have the patience it requires to *start* a guild.  It takes a very particular type of masochist to want to go through that, and it's not me. I've read up on the defense changes, and there's a chance that, if it's done moderately well, will either completely hork up raiding completely until they fix it, or will actually level out classes.  I *am* looking forward to seeing how it's imp'ed.  In the coming month or so, we'll see how things play out.  I really hope that Shadowknights recieve a little love here and there, if for no other reason than to do what SOE set about to do in the beginning, to make every tank class able to actually tank. We'll see how it all plays out.  Enjoy folks!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Baelzharon]

The underlying problem will never go away because Guardians will always be the best defenders. There has to be some sort of reason for players to want to play a guardian, and right now it's to be the best meat shield. I chose the SK because it was very versatile, and often enough I find myself in situations where simply being a meat shield isn't enough. I'd welcome the chance for SoE to review defense and taunt skills, and hope there is some balance brought about but... I don't want that balance to be achieved by the sacrifice of Guardians. If SK or Bruisers or a Paladin (Very fun classes all around) could tank as well as Guardians could there really wouldn't be a drive for people to play a Guardian. Right now the very fact they do get better defensive skills and taunts is the only advantage. Other tanks can solo better, buff others better, DPS better, pull mobs better, heal better, and all around provide more fun. What SoE needs to do is provide end game content that is more tactically challenging. Whacking something for 20 minutes in a race to kill it before your healers run OOP is to put it bluntly, boring. I did that for 5 years in EQ1 and if I want to do it some more I can log onto my Wizard in EQ1 and rejoin a raiding guild. If SoE were to create end game content that was tailored toward requiring different tanks for different combat type this whole balance foolishness would go away. If all SoE does from now on is throw mobs out there that simply have more HPs, higher damage attacks and only swaps out the AE effects, and label it End Game Content I'll be highly disappointed. <div></div>

[Nitefl]

<DIV>Someone else posted on the forums somewhere that having tanks specialize in different raid mobs. Example, maybe brawlers would be better suited for 3 of the raid encounters because of the style of how they hit (fast quick attacks? or maybe really slow attacks that the brawler can dodge? I don't know I'm not a brawler) and some raid encounters that is purely based on getting beat on, where the title would go to Guardian/Zerker. Maybe another raid mob that runes himself or mem wipes or some other tactic that crusaders will have the edge on.. Maybe a lifetap that eats through wards and is untauntable otherwise other than things like that? It was a good idea in theory and if implemented well will be amazing, but personally I would have a rough time thinking of how to design these raid mobs..then again I don't work for SoE so hopefully they pull through <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Ixnay]

<P>I'm in a guild that raids every day.  We have server firsts on all the big mobs on my server, including Venekor, Darathar, and Vision of Vox.</P> <P>If what you say is true and you were rejected by a guild that has no SKs, I'm frankly astonished that the leader of that guild apparently doesn't understand the high end game or grasp the benefits of our exclusive 1200 AC Debuff (at Adept 3) that will land on level 55^^^ raid x 4 mobs.</P> <P>So I'm sorry to hear that your choices are so limited on your server.  I hope the guild you applied to becomes more educated about our class in the future.  An SK or two with skeelz in a top level raiding guild can add significant benefits to any raid.</P> <p>Message Edited by Smileonadog on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:43 AM</span>