Beta changes to Bulwark of Rime AND Intercept

[Nero]

Not gonna lie, I am pretty upset about this.<br /> <br />You guys took THE ONLY ability that was actually good for us tanks and just nerfed it into the ground, and then to add insult to injury, you take Monk's Epic 2.0 intercept and nerf the damage of that into the ground for the second time as well.<br /> <br />So I guess im expected to what? Pay to level a 3rd ascension class to masters and GMs? Because being an Elementalist for a monk is sure as hell no longer going to be worth it, and we all found out after 6 months or so that being a Geo is a bad idea.<br /> <br />How about we make a deal? Since you decided to nerf the abilities I paid for, you take my current tier elementalist spells, and apply them to Etherealist for me?

[Nero]

Live vs beta versions for comparison btw...just so petty imho.<br /> <br />Live: <a href="https://imgur.com/CAgIt8S" target="_blank" class="externalLink" rel="nofollow">https://imgur.com/CAgIt8S</a><br /> <br />Beta: <a href="https://imgur.com/pD6gzbe" target="_blank" class="externalLink" rel="nofollow">https://imgur.com/pD6gzbe</a>

[wiouxev2]

I'd like to add to this.<br /> <br /> <br />In the early/middle of the KA expansion, I sent a message to the devs about the output damage of Bulwark *months ago*, as I was sure it was going to be adjusted--so why would I go through the hassle to level up an entirely new ascension class?<br /><br />I was told it would be looked into, . Now to have it then be the way it was for an entire expansion only to change it for the next to come out.<br /><br />I waited a long time before I decided to completely switch over from the ascension I spent tons of time/some money leveling, to do it *again* for Elementalist for this one reason, it was basically a necessity for tanking.<br /><br /><br />Giving the benefit of the doubt of not realizing its output (even though I personally flagged devs on this very issue) <br /><br />This is the kinda stuff you get when you change something so big after its been so long, and when you have these systems that the majority (Especially raiders) have put real money into. This feels very similar to a bait and switch and I do not appreciate it.<br /> <br /> <br />This is my tl;dr:<br /> <br />This kinda feels like a dig from a couple different angles. First, it goes back to the "pressure to spend real money on ascension skills" in the first place, to the lack of communication with high-end raiders on very specified, and documented issues with abilities from people that are interacting with them daily, and also it really feels like a business bait-and-switch, even though I have confidence it was an honest mistake in the mechanics and something that was looked over.<br /> <br /> <br />Can you see how this would be frustrating from a players perspective? I knew Bulwark was OP and I tried to open communication on it, I accepted it was going to stay and almost a year later it is gutted. I really hope something can be done about this.

[Nero]

Honestly its not even OP... over a 15 minute Trak fight this evening, me casting it on cooldown (almost) and very closely coordinating it with my fervor procs and other abilities, it did 150M DPS.. i have had better, and I have had worse. I am sure tohers are getting significantly lower numbers if they arent carefully timing it.<br /> <br /><a href="https://imgur.com/a/wTxBP" target="_blank" class="externalLink" rel="nofollow">https://imgur.com/a/wTxBP</a><br /> <br />Yes, it topped my parse, closely followed by other ascension abilities. its not like its doing 80% of my parse unlike some other classe's abilities.

[Lucus]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Nero"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Nero said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6478681#post-6478681" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">So I guess im expected to what? Pay to level a 3rd ascension class to masters and GMs? Because being an Elementalist for a monk is sure as hell no longer going to be worth it, and we all found out after 6 months or so that being a Geo is a bad idea.<br /> <br />How about we make a deal? Since you decided to nerf the abilities I paid for, you take my current tier elementalist spells, and apply them to Etherealist for me?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>seems like if you are not the favorite you are screwed anyway, etherealist gets a free pass while non-favorite suffer<br /> <br />rime is the most useful tank ascension on live of the lot, it makes no sense to nerf it when etherealists are easily blowing their stuff without issue it's not like there is all that much in other ascensions that are good for tanks let alone as good as rime.<br /> <br />lets not forget the bad level11 and new grp buffs for elementalist/geo.<br /> <br />any ascension should be effective with any profession, if the other ascension classes are not completing for tank classes with rime, BUFF THEM, just like they should do to poorly performing elementalist and geo spells.

[wiouxev2]

One thing I do think is important to keep in mind is this is obviously still beta, and tweaking is very likely still on the table for these, but I think that being said most of my points still stand - very interested in seeing dev feedback on this.

[Clintsat]

While I can agree that these reflect abilities where doing more on beta than clearly intended, a simple reduction on the percent value would be a lot nicer. Divine light is pretty much the only Templar dps spell that is worth anything.<br /><br />Bulwark of Rime is now only marginally useful on certain fights.

[Nero]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Clintsat"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Clintsat said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6478811#post-6478811" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">While I can agree that these reflect abilities where doing more on beta than clearly intended, a simple reduction on the percent value would be a lot nicer. Divine light is pretty much the only Templar dps spell that is worth anything.<br /> <br />Bulwark of Rime is now only marginally useful on certain fights.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I can make ANY ability look OP as all get out over a 1 or 2 min fight, Bulwark included. This is the exact reason I included my parse from our Trak pull last night to demonstrate that while it does have a high initial spike, it trails off pretty heavily, especially over the course of a fight that is 15+ mins long. <br /> <br />This just feels like a nerf to an ability because it does well in the first 20 seconds of a fight. <br /> <br />What's even worse, is that this is basically a nerf to tank DPS... no one else uses Bulwark. Period.<br /> <br />Doubly a nerf to monks as one of my nighest parsing abilities is Intercept, due to my Epic 2.0. It's not passive, i work my *** off to maintain it on 6-7 people. you can see where it falls on the parse that i posted above. It's not OP, or even unreasonable, so why go out of your way to nerf it?

[Arieva]

While I know many tanks are probably exceptionally irked about this, did it ever occur to you that this change while certainly nerfing the ability for tanks, is supposed to increase the useability for the rest of the classes that have elementalist? As I read the screenshot posted that's what it reads like to me. It should remain a strong parser for both tanks, and rest considering elementalist are (like most other ascensions) not the poster boy etherealists. It will still probably parse higher for tanks than the rest. But the damage output *NEEDS* to be worth the cast time for all. Especially considering the later abilities are elemental centric and flat out not useful for the majority of classes. Also the until cancelled fervor buff may prove to be dubiously useful at best.

[Nero]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arieva"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arieva said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6478870#post-6478870" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">While I know many tanks are probably exceptionally irked about this, did it ever occur to you that this change while certainly nerfing the ability for tanks, is supposed to increase the useability for the rest of the classes that have elementalist? As I read the screenshot posted that's what it reads like to me. It should remain a strong parser for both tanks, and rest considering elementalist are (like most other ascensions) not the poster boy etherealists. It will still probably parse higher for tanks than the rest. But the damage output *NEEDS* to be worth the cast time for all. Especially considering the later abilities are elemental centric and flat out not useful for the majority of classes. Also the until cancelled fervor buff may prove to be dubiously useful at best.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I have considered it, and as you may be well aware, the ability can still parse well for those classes that bother to wear the epic 2.0 charm that adds the reflect component.<br /> <br />The "post nerf" ability is doing almost 1% of what it is doing on live, so yeah i'm not overly optimistic about it remaining a "strong parser".

[Arieva]

So I'll do more testing in heroic zones later but I zoned in solo to the brackish vault duo and used the new rime on the first named. Pretty weak in its current state. 2% of total damage at grandmaster. Triggered 13-15 times on me as a conjuror tanking the mob on several different pulls. Rang in about in damage where wildfire did on each pull. The problem with the proc as it is, is that while it looks good on paper being able to trigger every .1 times a second most folks will NOT be taking damage that often. Even while I'm tanking a mob in a duo I didn't see anywhere near that proc rate. Would be interested to see how tanks proc rate compares. Considering 90% of the playerbase is not tanking the mob when this ability is used they will actually see a lower output than I'm posting here. So if while tanking a mob in a duo its really only proccing once a second, and constant damage on group/ raids are often every several seconds the damage potential goes down from there. <br /> <br />Potential fixes: As bulwark's spell quality increases the duration of the ability also needs to increase substantially. I'd say minimum 30 seconds at GM maybe 45 better. Also damage may need to increase on the proc as it stands now or allow the damage to SDA which it currently does not appear to.. I think you owe it to the elementalists that relied primarily on this spell for their damage (tanks) and the class as a whole to make this ability good.

[Nero]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arieva"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arieva said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6478885#post-6478885" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">So I'll do more testing in heroic zones later but I zoned in solo to the brackish vault duo and used the new rime on the first named. Pretty weak in its current state. 2% of total damage at grandmaster. Triggered 13-15 times on me as a conjuror tanking the mob on several different pulls. Rang in about in damage where wildfire did on each pull. The problem with the proc as it is, is that while it looks good on paper being able to trigger every .1 times a second most folks will NOT be taking damage that often. Even while I'm tanking a mob in a duo I didn't see anywhere near that proc rate. Would be interested to see how tanks proc rate compares. Considering 90% of the playerbase is not tanking the mob when this ability is used they will actually see a lower output than I'm posting here. So if while tanking a mob in a duo its really only proccing once a second, and constant damage on group/ raids are often every several seconds the damage potential goes down from there.<br /> <br />Potential fixes: As bulwark's spell quality increases the duration of the ability also needs to increase substantially. I'd say minimum 30 seconds at GM maybe 45 better. Also damage may need to increase on the proc as it stands now or allow the damage to SDA which it currently does not appear to.. I think you owe it to the elementalists that relied primarily on this spell for their damage (tanks) and the class as a whole to make this ability good.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I would be satisfied with it just for the DR if the duration went to 30+ seconds. But just nerfing it, and not really giving anything in return is demoralizing.<br /> <br />In addition, for those of you that are curious, i tested this on Trak on both live and beta using the same prepull buffs and temps, minus rising tide of course.<br /> <br />The damage output is approximately 20% of what it is on live. My guess is that that is the best case scenario, due to the fact that i was pulling trak alone, probably short on resolve, and didnt have any stoneskins to pick up damage hits.This combined with the fact that no other mob is going to hit that hard or fast just kinda proved my point.<br /> <br />Realistically, on heroic mobs or mobs that dont hit as hard you're probably looking at an 85-09% decrease in outgoing damage from this ability.<br /> <br />Best we can hope for is that they extend the duration.

[Ogdinmar]

Speaking as a tank, it sucks that they changed bulwark, it was fun to play with. However, as a person with eyes, it needed to be fixed. How can an ability that can hit for billions <b><span style="text-decoration: underline">per proc,</span></b> not just one hit, and be 70+% of your parse only using it once or twice not be over powered? I saw this coming a while ago.

[Nero]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Ogdinmar"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Ogdinmar said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6478941#post-6478941" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Speaking as a tank, it sucks that they changed bulwark, it was fun to play with. However, as a person with eyes, it needed to be fixed. How can an ability that can hit for billions <b><span style="text-decoration: underline">per proc,</span></b> not just one hit, and be 70+% of your parse only using it once or twice not be over powered? I saw this coming a while ago.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>All ascensions hit for Billions a hit... some hit for hundreds of billions and use ADC to cast multiple times, so I honestly dont see why this is a problem.<br /> <br />On live, it has never ever ever made up 70% of my parse, or even 50%. LIke I said, the parse I poster was a pretty accurate representation of where bulwark normally lands (20% of all outgoing, topping the ability list, with scorched earth and Intercept close behind)

[Arieva]

Testing in some heroic beta zones netted results about what I expected. Never saw the damage go above 2% of parse and in several instances saw it below that. Number of procs on names when fighter was tanking the mobs ranged from 6-10..so significantly lower than solo testing.

[Ogdinmar]

When I use it, its the majority of my parse because my reflects are upwards of 9-20 billion per proc (not cast). When its hitting 10 - 15 times per cast and then only down for a couple minutes that's a bit over powered. Other spells do hit for billions on the one cast and then down for 4 mins. its the hit ratio and the cools down. Plus I'm assuming primary reason for the change is that they cannot make the spell differentiate the DR from the spell and the casters other buffs (which is why it hits so hard) to calculate the reflect damage. So instead of 9% its reflecting upwards of 50-100% based on the casters other DRs.