SK as MT

[jaydessy]

<DIV>When I first started EQ2, the description that I read for Shadowknight seemed to state that they were heavily armored and thus capable of being the mt. This was one of the main reasons I decided to go with this class. I remember when the problems with eq and shadowknights happened. I didn't want that same thing all over again. But of course, SOE promised that these things wouldn't be the case. Is the popular opinion that sk's will never be the mt? I hope this is not the case. I see no reason why a guardian should be the only one capable of doing this in a raid setting. I know many people have been patient and that many classes suffer some form of glitch, but it's getting kinda pathetic at this point. I'm about to reactivate my WoW account and just say screw this game. But it the mean time, I want some feedback as to what we should be capable of doing up to the end game content.</DIV>

[Rakn]

guardains arent the only tank class capable of tanking raid mobs berzerkers can do it to <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />no way an SK is gonna hold aggro on anything above x2 raid mobs which consist of 2 ^^ or 1 ^^^

[VampirePrince]

I hold aggro fine against raid mobs in PF. At lvl 47. If you know what your doing then its alright. By the way, not even a lvl 50 guardian can hold the aggro incase a lvl 50 warlock is in the group <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kimkim Team`Zeb]

<DIV>not totaly true i have tanked group x3 raid mobs ^^^ trust me if you understand your cards your delt and learn how to play your class, all is well.  Lot of people do not have much tactics when it come to pulling aggro and keeping that aggro locked... How hard is it for your raid party to sit out and chill for 15 seconds while you build hate then call for an assist , call me crazy thats how most droped mobs in eq1 it works .. Have any tank class pull that mob build as much hate as he can with only the healer types casting anything on you and a slow on the mob then call for a assist when you feel you have enough hate.</DIV>

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>jaydessy wrote:<DIV>When I first started EQ2, the description that I read for Shadowknight seemed to state that they were heavily armored and thus capable of being the mt. This was one of the main reasons I decided to go with this class. I remember when the problems with eq and shadowknights happened. I didn't want that same thing all over again. But of course, SOE promised that these things wouldn't be the case. Is the popular opinion that sk's will never be the mt? I hope this is not the case. I see no reason why a guardian should be the only one capable of doing this in a raid setting. I know many people have been patient and that many classes suffer some form of glitch, but it's getting kinda pathetic at this point. I'm about to reactivate my WoW account and just say screw this game. But it the mean time, I want some feedback as to what we should be capable of doing up to the end game content.</DIV><hr></blockquote>ALl the fighter types are capeable of preforming as main tank, even on raids. Guardians have really got to get over themselves.

[DUNN]

<DIV>I don't think thereis a question of weather we can tank or not. <FONT color=#ff9900>We can tank</FONT>. Yes i have tanked all the named in Perma excpet naggy.  I can keep aggro without any problem even with 3 wizzies in group.  Problem is my health drops to fast, healers start spamming heals on me and fights are close because of that. My mitigation sux and <FONT color=#ff0000>i can't compensate with my lifetaps for the damage i take</FONT>. There lies the problem we cannot compenstae for the extra damage taken since our <FONT color=#ffff00>lifetaps are subpar compared to heals of a pally or mitigation of the guardian and berzerker</FONT>.  That is the truth it is not that we can't tank it is our life taps.  Plain and simple. Heck i get outanked by Monks and Bruisers they hardley get hit.  So it boils down to how many heals we need compared to other tanks.  Right now we required the most to accomplish our job so that makes us undesirable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which leads to the following scenario:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 days ago i am LFG (49 SK) with a guardian that is 46 who is also LFG in EF. Guess who got picked first for a Perma Group?  That is right the guardian got it.  Why,  who knows but why pass a 49 lvl over a 46 when you are going to get same xp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scenario 2:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SK and Pally LFG everthing being tha same; Equipment and LVL. Who would you pick?  Pally that can heal for  750 every 5 sec and for 1200 every 30 sec or so. Or a sk that can Lifetap for around 300  every 20 sec. </DIV>

[Vadir]

Eh?We can tank and taunt just fine.As you can see in your post, you are getting several different replies to this of various degrees and opinions.You are probably asking yourself, "Why all the different answers?"The following is why: Perspective, playstyle, and equipment/spells.1) Perspective. Perspective is 90% of reality, as they say. Not evenyone playing the same class is going to have the same opinion, no matter what the subject is. Its just the way it is.2) Playstyle. Everyone has different strategies and tactics when it comes to their class. Not everyone does things the same.3) Equipment/Spells: Everyone has different equipment and strength to their spells, in some degree as well. Just because you are a lvl 38 SK, doesn't mean you are equal to every level 38 SK out there - even if you have the SAME equipment!I'm a lvl 40 SK. You can look at my profile anytime for my equipment, but I'm fairly decked out. I have a 3% melee haste, which I wanted to get not to really cause more damage, but to hold aggro better. I've focused totally on being a tank - nothing else. All my bonuses have went to STA, Health, and my Taunts. All my spells are Adept1 or above. I have the specialization that's the upgrade to Disease Cloud. I have the best food and drink always on me.So no, I have no problem being the main tank. But that's because I've focused on nothing else but being a main tank! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Other SK's may not have focused on it as heavily as I have, or even have a very different playstyle than my own when it comes to aggro management, so thus, you get the different answers.

[Mundyman]

<DIV>I think, and have been told that Im a darn fine tank, Ive worked with other SK's and can see how some could say that we are no good because some players dont play well. Seen some fine Guardians too, crappy ones as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love being a SK, im 29 now, and refuse to be told that I dont know my class becuase I didnt hit 50 in 2 months after release.</DIV>

[Kunathar]

<DIV>This thread speaks volumes.  Volumes.  :smileywink:</DIV>

[HenneseyofDe]

<DIV>I have been out of game for some real life issues but I also love being an SK. Yes there are problems and I think we are getting the short end of the stick at times. The reason is that some of the other Tank Classes seem to be more on the uber side than we are. Trust me the nerf bat will be hitting them soon. That is why Guardians are bashing us now for complaining because they know that is the case. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also the ability to tank also depends on who you have in your group. I know how to tank but I am not the best at it. However with that said I do know what I am doing. The question is does everyone in your group know what they are doing. Most of my deaths have come from someone in the group not following instructions. Yeah there are some accidental things that happen like a respawn right in the middle of us when we are battling. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking requires prep work. When you have casters in your group they are going to do more damage than your normal tank. Some people are so impatient they do not allow the tank to generate enough hate before the start throwing spells around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have learned my lesson from grouping with just anyone. I have spent a lot of time paying back experience debt because some healer runs away like a coward. That happens a lot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the most part I only group with my guild mates. Not because they are the best at grouping but because they will not leave me to die without trying to help me first. </DIV>

[jaydessy]

<DIV>Thanks for the info. What first concerned me was the thread about the sk and end game. Summed up, it stated that end game sk's aren't needed, wanted, and can't tank compared to all other fighter classes. It was a little annoying to hear. At lvl 32, currently, I don't have much troubles keeping aggro with exception to large numbers of mobs at times. I think we tank fine, but I still feel our mitigation and the pallies should be equal to a guardian. I think that each fighter sub class should stand out because of their spells. They should offer something to a group that is needed. At least that's my thoughts on it</DIV>

[Rakn]

the reason i say SK cant tank raid mobs is because when you have a berserker in the raid and u always should as soon as they do there uber AOE guess what happens you aint tanking as sk.not having a zerker in a raid is like not having a 48+ defiler use there lvl 48 ward that summons pets with insane dps.who wants an SK tanking when they can have a zerker dish out tons of dmg in a few seconds lol

[olo]

<blockquote><hr>VampirePrincess wrote:I hold aggro fine against raid mobs in PF. At lvl 47. If you know what your doing then its alright. By the way, not even a lvl 50 guardian can hold the aggro incase a lvl 50 warlock is in the group <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>You hit it on the ball. I have no problem tanking or holding aggro... would you like to know why? B/c I know how to play my class and the people I group with too. If you get a warlock that goes nuke crazy, of course you will lose aggro. Make sure you have the best equipment available, and be wise where you but your bonus pts.People keep bringing up the pally heal... but you keep forgetting about our ward. That not only abosrbs damage but also increases your hate.The person who posted the end game raid mob post... i really don't agree with him. HIS play style does not work. Instead of "trying" to go dps and drainging his mana, he should go DEFENSIVE, let the dps do the dps. He should be worried about hate, ward, and taunt... thats it... not dps. And as he stated his playstyle does not work.You can't take one person's word on it. I love my sk. A friend of mine has a lvl 50 zerker... he let me plya it. I HATED it. A 60s recast timer was unblieveable for me, and all their taunts on one timer really blew. I like our 6s - 15s recast, we are a very versatile class!Everyone has gripes about their class, just loot at the other 23 class boards. i have to say SK has been such a fun experience. Yes at times i was annoyed about some of things things happening in game. But over time and many many levels later I learned how to play correctly... just like every other class has to. Like a warlock learning to not spam nukes but doing a very strategic play style to help EVERYONE in the grp.I have to say, in pickup groups it is going to be tough at times, but as the game progresses and you pass that lvl 40 mark, it becomes a very fun and rewarding experience playing a SK.just my 1 russion rouble (spelling?)

[Ishnar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vadirus wrote:<BR>Eh?<BR><BR><BR>I'm a lvl 40 SK. You can look at my profile anytime for my equipment, but I'm fairly decked out. I have a 3% melee haste, which I wanted to get not to really cause more damage, but to hold aggro better. I've focused totally on being a tank - nothing else. All my bonuses have went to STA, Health, and my Taunts. All my spells are Adept1 or above. I have the specialization that's the upgrade to Disease Cloud. I have the best food and drink always on me.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is pretty interesting, but I see you left out STR.  I'm not speaking of the DPS contribution of STR but power,  I burn through power like it is going out of style so I get STR equipment whenever it is available.  Are you playing a race with a high starting STR to begin with, or does going full defensive save a lot of power?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ishnar</DIV>

[Shadame]

Part of the SK's problem is our power usage... it's way too high.The lifetap issue was hit on the head pretty well... it needs to be fixed, and bady.I havent done the End game raids and stuff, so I can't comment there, but as a 34 SK in RE (before I stopped playing) I was able to hold my own, just not as conviently as others. Yes, there is always the "play your class well and you can do it" part, but after measuring the comparable effort, it just seems completely unbalanced.

[SuDang]

Biggest problem I encountered thus far (lvl37) is keeping aggro on named fights with lots of adds. I can AE, selfrune etc as much as I want. I loose aggro sooner or later on the adds. A Pally never has this issue as self healing generates alot more aggro on all around it seems. ( despite the fact that it seem way more efficient to kill the adds first and keep the named mezzed <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )2nd bad thing is the low +health on lifetaps..but well.

[Urg]

Permafrost is pretty easy, we MT just fine, and increased DPS over a guardian makes us a better class for it imo. Mitigation is pointless when the healer never runs out of mana. But in raids, the DPS of the MT just isn't that important. Mitigation and aggro retention is, and at that we lose.

[DUNN]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> olord wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>People keep bringing up the pally heal... but you keep forgetting about our ward. That not only abosrbs damage but also increases your hate.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>By the way paladins get wards Also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><B>Class</B></FONT><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Spell Name </FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff> Skill</FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>  Level</FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Power Cost </FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Concentration</FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>   Description</FONT></B></DIV><B>Paladin</B>Faithful Zealdetermined faith 26.6 53     0wards a target group member and increases the paladin's hate generation <P></P><B>Paladin</B>Display ofDevotiondetermined faith40.4 140wards a target group member and increases the paladin's hate generation <P></P><B>Paladin</B>Devout Sacramentdetermined faith40.890Wards a target group member and increases the paladin's hate generation <P><BR> </P>

[roza]

<DIV>Raknor.. zerker dishing out tons of damage in a few seconds??... not true by all means.  im a 45 shadowknight with all my spells adept 1 or at least app4, i outdamage my berzerker friend in almost any fight if i try i just find it hard to hold aggro against him. heh</DIV>

[Shadame]

whats the power consumption of the sk v. the berzerker tho?

[roza]

<DIV>yeah sks do have to use up a ton of power to outdamage.. its kinda sad... but in the short run it IS possible to do it =D</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dont get me wrong. i still think they need to stop ignoring our class. but when i unleash im really not that bad of dps..  </DIV>

[Pheeb]

<blockquote><hr>rozaki wrote:<DIV>Raknor.. zerker dishing out tons of damage in a few seconds??... not true by all means. im a 45 shadowknight with all my spells adept 1 or at least app4, i outdamage my berzerker friend in almost any fight if i try i just find it hard to hold aggro against him. heh</DIV><hr></blockquote>Am lvl 30 SK - played with a Bezerker friend who is 32 and I kept getting the aggro and mostly holding it - he then asked me to go MT as he found I had better luck with aggro holding...So I guess it depends - all my spells are App4 or Adept I

[far]

<DIV>I really wish there was a definiative list of SK spells and their effects from app I to Adept III or even master, because every time i move from app iv to adept the power goes up 10-20 pts but the effectiveness of the spell moves at times less then 2%.. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</DIV>