Mantis Bolt proc rate

[lucid_dream]

<div></div>Query about Mantis Bolt Sta AA line proc.I was looking through my parses and noticed that it seems to proccing alot less than advertised. I got 8 points in Mantis Bolt, so proc rate should be 24%. I was killing ^ solo mobs with just auto-attacks.Hits      Mantis Bolt procs           %69                  6                          8.771                  5                          769                  6                          8.7Thats just 3 mobs, but fairly consistent.But 8% is a LOT less than 24%.Anyone else encountered this? Or am I missing something?<div></div>

[Pins]

Are you counting your offhand swings? Also what is the delay on your weapon. 24% means that 24% of the time when using a 3.0 delay weapon you will proc, and if you use a faster or slower weapon your proc chance will be adjusted based on that.

[FallenFeather]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>It says the proc has a chance on every succesful attack, how can that have anything to do with your offhand ? It should be exactly what it says.Also I think there are more descriptions on things that doesnt seem to be as correct with how I've seen it work; "Does not affect epic targets" , yet they get knocked back, "DMG only CA that costs health instead of pwr for monks"  does knockback too (or did, duno if they have changed that)..If you have 25% crits that would meen something like every 4th hit or about 5/20 should be critical, yet it seems to be less. Not the least, Mantis proc, is something I have also noticed to have a lower proc stat then what it should have, I dont see the dmg it should do so very often.I dont have the numbers to prove me right about all this, prove me wrong if you want, I'm just summing up my impressions here,, now the balance of classes are good the way they are now, so no nead to "fix whats not  broken" , but its a bit missleading when you spend a small fortune to respec for DPS  to Mantis when its about nothing to get from it.<div></div><p>Message Edited by FallenFeather on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 AM</span>

[FallenFeather]

<div></div>Ok was readig a bit more on the forum here and seems you need your int up to get <b><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=23910" target="_blank">Mantis proc rate</a></b> higher, makes sense, but not real all that logical is it ?(Its in Gungos post btw)<div></div><p>Message Edited by FallenFeather on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:20 AM</span>

[tt66]

FallenFeather : I believe Gungo was saying that a higher int increases the <i>damage</i> from your Mantis Bolt proc, not that the proc itself will occur more often.Pinski : Thanks for the info. I always assumed that %procs based on "hits" were normalised in some way, and a 3.0 delay sounds reasonable.So the actual % proc rate for Mantis Bolt is 24 * (weapon delay/3.0)? If lucid_dream was dual-wielding with two 1.0(ish) delay weapons, then the rate would indeed be about 24 * (1.0/3.0) or approx 8%.<div></div>Hrm. Good to know.

[FallenFeather]

<div></div>Ah yes, I didnt read it properly, so thats how its like then. Still not all that bad, better get that int up as well now I guess, or anyone know if it matters much ?<div></div><p>Message Edited by FallenFeather on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:54 AM</span>

[Expiate]

<div><blockquote><hr>lucid_dream wrote:<div></div>Query about Mantis Bolt Sta AA line proc.I was looking through my parses and noticed that it seems to proccing alot less than advertised. I got 8 points in Mantis Bolt, so proc rate should be 24%. I was killing ^ solo mobs with just auto-attacks.Hits      Mantis Bolt procs           %69                  6                          8.771                  5                          769                  6                          8.7Thats just 3 mobs, but fairly consistent.But 8% is a LOT less than 24%.Anyone else encountered this? Or am I missing something?<div></div><hr></blockquote>what a terrible name for a brawler proc</div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tt66 wrote:<BR>FallenFeather : I believe Gungo was saying that a higher int increases the <I>damage</I> from your Mantis Bolt proc, not that the proc itself will occur more often.<BR><BR>Pinski : Thanks for the info. I always assumed that %procs based on "hits" were normalised in some way, and a 3.0 delay sounds reasonable.<BR><BR>So the actual % proc rate for Mantis Bolt is 24 * (weapon delay/3.0)? If lucid_dream was dual-wielding with two 1.0(ish) delay weapons, then the rate would indeed be about 24 * (1.0/3.0) or approx 8%.<BR> <BR>Hrm. Good to know.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I was wrong it is strength  not intelligence. It was just confusing me since i had to zone every time i changed gear for my AA ui to update the change in damage. Int so far only effects storming fist and itme spell procs liek basilisk boots from deathtoll.<p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 PM</span>

[Thoral]

I was looking at the Crane Twirl AE proc from the wisdom line, and it says it should proc on 8% of successful melee attacks (at 8 points).  I'm a level 70 bruiser, and I was fighting gazers on gazer isle that are level 60 non-heroics.  I would fight them in small groups so I could get combat to last for at least 2 minutes for each parse.  I would use a combat art to start melee with each gazer, and I was in third person view to make sure my autoattack was on.  Crane Twirl procced either zero or one time over each two-minute fight, for an average of about 1 proc every 4 minutes.  Lets just say it was every 2 minutes to be generous.  Now, my normal sustainable DPS as a pre-raiding bruiser against a group of gazers is about 600 if I'm using my combat arts including my AE combat arts.  So, over a 2 minute fight I'm putting out about 72000 damage.  If my Crane Twirl proc goes off when there are 5 gazers around me, it will do approximately 1500 points of damage (about 300 each).  That is 2% of my total damage.  I know this doesn't add up to 8% of my attacks, so either SOE's code is wrong or I'm not hitting with as many of my attacks as I think.  I'll refrain from blaming others until I parse my number of hits.The other thing I get from the wisdom AA line is Crane Sweep, which I can use on a 1-minute timer.  It does similar damage to Crane Twirl, though not as a proc and it has a knockdown.  That would equal about 4% of my total damage since I can use it twice during a 2-minute fight.So, for the 16 points I spent in the wisdom line (4/4/<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, I get a little higher resists and an extra 6% DPS.  I also get a little extra aggro on those encounter and AE mobs.I'm not really asking anything here or trying to prove any points, I just thought I would ramble about this rather than do my work.

[lucid_dream]

<div><blockquote><hr>tt66 wrote:So the actual % proc rate for Mantis Bolt is 24 * (weapon delay/3.0)? If lucid_dream was dual-wielding with two 1.0(ish) delay weapons, then the rate would indeed be about 24 * (1.0/3.0) or approx 8%.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Hmm that sounds like good logic yes. I am dual wielding 1.6 delay weaps (so with haste, its a bit less).My only problem with Sony's description of these things, if the AA says 24% of successful hits, then it really should be 24%. I understand normalisation, but it is just very misleading when something says 24% and you expect it to add good dps. Then when you respec and actually try the AA ability, and its only giving 8% (a fraction of the advertised amount) - well its disappointing and misleading. <span>:smileysad:</span></div>

[tt66]

<div></div>ekopocka : Assuming Crane Twirl is normalised in the same way as Mantis Bolt, you'd only be looking at 1.5 procs per minute (for a 2H) or 3 procs per min when DW. Given SOE's wacky random number generation, your experience doesn't sound totally unreasonable.Not to say that it makes Crane Twirl particularly good, mind you.The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that I shouldn't be going 448 Sta/Wis/Int if I'm planning on hitting things with a 2H staff. By *not* dual-wielding, I'm only getting half the benefit of Mantis Bolt and Crane Twirl!It is somewhat counter-intuitive to realise that the you get twice as much benefit from the Wisdom line by not using a staff, but I guess that is partly the downside of the proc-based system, and partly one of the many advantages of going DW.I rather think I might try 4/4/8/5/8 4/8/8 int/sta. I'm going to miss Crane Sweep, as an additional short-cast aoe stun/knockback is an invaluable and versatile tool (I particularly like it for dealing with Brigand thugs), but to my mind the 8/8 mantis star is a more powerful art. Plus, I have had a lot less trouble with aggro control on mobs since going down the "attention" Bruiser AA line.<div></div>

[Thoral]

<div><blockquote><hr>tt66 wrote:<div></div>ekopocka : Assuming Crane Twirl is normalised in the same way as Mantis Bolt, you'd only be looking at 1.5 procs per minute (for a 2H) or 3 procs per min when DW. Given SOE's wacky random number generation, your experience doesn't sound totally unreasonable.Not to say that it makes Crane Twirl particularly good, mind you.The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that I shouldn't be going 448 Sta/Wis/Int if I'm planning on hitting things with a 2H staff. By *not* dual-wielding, I'm only getting half the benefit of Mantis Bolt and Crane Twirl!It is somewhat counter-intuitive to realise that the you get twice as much benefit from the Wisdom line by not using a staff, but I guess that is partly the downside of the proc-based system, and partly one of the many advantages of going DW.I rather think I might try 4/4/8/5/8 4/8/8 int/sta. I'm going to miss Crane Sweep, as an additional short-cast aoe stun/knockback is an invaluable and versatile tool (I particularly like it for dealing with Brigand thugs), but to my mind the 8/8 mantis star is a more powerful art. Plus, I have had a lot less trouble with aggro control on mobs since going down the "attention" Bruiser AA line.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm specced for strength, so I don't use weapons most of the time.  The Crane Twirl proc works with any weapon, and I have hot buttons to equip my staff for a quick Crane Sweep and then unequip it.  My favorite thing to do in the whole game is to Sonic Fist into a huge group of mobs, Crane Sweep them, and teleport back.  I love watching them all fall down with a bunch of orange negative numbers over their heads.  /flexI looked through more parses last night and found that my Crane Twirl proccing was very different from one fight to the next.  I parsed two fights where I had over 70 hits (about 2 minutes long), and in one I had 6 procs and in the other I had 1 proc.</div>

[tt66]

Well, if I remember correctly, going bare-handed does not count as DW, so you're looking at an average of 1.5 per min. So... yeah. Not that impressive a rate. Also, I have a suspicion (and again, I'm relying on a notoriously faulty memory here), that the double attacks from the Str AA line <b>don't</b> allow procs. Hopefully someone else can verify that.Of course, the thing about statistics is that you really need a big sample of data to analyse. From my own experimentation, I haven't seen anything that makes me thing that the proccing rates are "off". It's just that a) I didn't really take into account the whole "normalized on a 3.0 speed" thing andb) It's only now that I'm realising how little they contribute to my overall dps.<div></div>

[Thoral]

If only my fiancee would let me do some parse testing instead of tanking for her all the time, I could do some research.  Bah, what am I thinking.  My fiancee PLAYS Everquest, so I have it better than most!<div></div>

[LuciferBB]

hmmm.... 24%of a successful attack.    A meaning 1. not 24% of your hits will proc. the way you looking at it is you did 60 hits and want about 15 of them to proc.  not working that way you do A hit and you have a 24% chance that it procs. now i have had critical proc more than 8 times in 60 hits.  about 15 times in a 60 hit combination.  i would think this would proc more.  it all revolves around the delay of the weapon.  to proc more often you get haste or longer delays.  i prefer haste.

[Hadanelith]

<p>I forget which Game Update it was, but SEVERAL GU's ago (like, before EoF even), they made it so that a Double Attack (2nd Melee triggered off an initial Melee) WILL NOT activate any sort of proc. Period.</p><p>The reasons they changed this were manyfold but all based around one simple thing: The 6 classes that could get decent double-attack rates were doing far more damage than they ever should have been by simply adding more procs to their characters rather than doing any "real" buffing. (The 6 classes being Bruiser/Monk with 96% double rate, Brig/Swash with 72% double rate, and Berserker/Guardian with something like a 24% rate, can't recall precisely.)</p><p>So, if you want to play Highschool Math for a moment...</p><ul><li>STR Line Double-Attacks @ 96% >>> out of 100 attacks, 51-52 are "Primary Attacks" that can trigger procs.</li><li>Bare-fists are 2.5 delay, so .24 x (2.5 / 3.0) = .24 x .83 = .20 or 20% proc rate</li><li>Given only ~50 attacks have the potential to trigger a proc, anything within an 8-11 range of procs is within statistical expectation of a 100-hit parse of pure melee using 96% double-attacks in STR line.</li></ul><p>Now that's referring to Mantis Bolt of course. When you're talking about Crane Flock... .08 x .83 = .066666 ~ .07 or 7%. Therefore, 2-4 procs in 100 hits (half of which are inelligible double-attack hits) is, unfortunately, expected.</p><p>-Hadanelith Raswrolski / Mossda Odis'Ossda, Kithicor Server</p>