Bare handed Vs. DW weapon

[Zeronx]

<DIV>I have been reading alot of the posts in here in regards to AA advice and such, and most everyone agrees on the 4/4/8 setup in STR.  But I see you only get the benefits of that setup if you have no weapons at all equipped in your primary and secondary slots.  Is it best for a Bruiser to go with no weapons at all?  I know that it also comes down to your AA configuration, right now I am using batons, but I will lose those if it is best to go bare handed.</DIV>

[Madmoon]

<P>If you max out the Strength AA Double line (and 4-4-8 sounds right, but I don't have the right abilities in front of me,) you cannot come close to the DPS that you will get bare-handed, unless you have Fabled Weapons.  And even then, that's only true at the end-game.  Otherwise, bare-handed is like constantly upgrading Fabled Weapons.</P> <P>I have been looking for Fableds, as I am near the end (66th,) but none are available for anything approaching a normal price (two jokers had some up for 60 plat :smileyvery-happy: )  The best Legendary DR I saw was 48.  I completed a quest where I received two DW with a DR of 45, so I thought, hey, attune them and try.  My DPS dropped from 45 to 25 - almost half.  If you max out the INT line, I suppose this might go up, in fact if not as a statistic, but you can take advantage of a lot of the INT line bare-handed, too.  For right now, the most bang-for-the-buck for those of us not likely to raid or have 60 plat to buy raid gear is STR-INT.</P>

[Zeronx]

TYVM for the info.

[Illustrious]

Str, Int, Wis at 4,4,8 AA is pretty much the best dps spec you can get with NO fabled weapons. While Sta, Int, Wis also all 4,4,8 being the best DPS spec for 2 x dr 57+ DW.

[Zeronx]

Sorry, but I haven't learned what some of the acronymn's used in here are, I know DW is Dual Weild, but DR ?  I know there are some others that I can't think of atm that I never did know what they ment.

[Ameniel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeronx wrote:<BR> Sorry, but I haven't learned what some of the acronymn's used in here are, I know DW is Dual Weild, but DR ?  I know there are some others that I can't think of atm that I never did know what they ment.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>DR = Damage Rating. </P> <P>Damage rating of t7 fabled are about 2 full tiers worth better than the lvl 62 mastercrafted, making them the only dw wepns able to compete with bare fist STR 4-4-8 INT 4-4-8 setup. </P>

[Madmoon]

<P>If you search the broker for dual wield (DW) weapons, or look at any weapon of your own, you will see a damage rating (DR.)  At the end (level 65 and up,) it is not worth doing anything but strength unless you can get a couple DW each with a DR of 57 or better, which is available only with Fabled weapons.  Then you might respec over to STA-WIS-INT, and do better or as good as the STR AA line, plus getting the stat bonuses of the weapons over bare-hands.</P> <P>Someone once wrote something similar for two handed (2H) weapons, stating what DR it would be worth switching over to it, and some bruisers use both, switching in fights or situations as necessary.  However, I cannot recall what the DR for a 2H needed to be, and with a STA-WIS-INT build there was some negative associated with a 2H as opposed to DW, but, again, I don't remember.</P> <P>Simply put, STR AA is very hard to beat.</P>

[MrMartin]

<P>Why WIS?<BR>I went 4-4-8 INT, 4-4-8 STA and 4-4-8(1 atm) AGI.<BR>That gives me 18% crit, 24% proc to do 100-150 dmg on every autoattack and improved reuse timers.</P> <P>Is WIS better then STA and if so, why?</P>

[Illustrious]

<P>Wisdom is good for the ae proc forget its name but its on the third level down on the line, it fires often and is a decent proportion of your entire zonewide dps if you check your parser.  The second skill down is ok as well for a short ae knockdown(needs a staff equipped to use though), even if u dont normally use a staff u can put one in a hotbar to equip then use skill then re-equip your normal weapon(s) again afterwards.</P> <P> </P> <P>I wouldnt say Wis is better than Sta but both are far better than Agi. Agi line imo is by far the weakest line of them all, for dps anyway. Bottom line is that for a non fabled brawler the str/int/wis line is the best dps you are likely to get. Others may disagree but i have tried many combinations before i got fabled and thats what i found myself. </P> <P> </P> <P>Personally ive now gone 4,4,8 int and 4,5,8,8,1 Wis its not the highest zonewide dps but the endline skill craneflock from WIS is really handy on occasion especially when tanking harder encounters to get a nice lump of grp aggro on pull, or when you need a dps burst to get a hard mob down quickly b4 it kills you if you are solo. </P><p>Message Edited by Illustrious on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:32 AM</span>

[Thoral]

My fiancee is a warlock, so the AE affects of the wisdom line are a must for me.  Also, sonic fisting into a group of mobs and doing the AE knockdown is pretty cool.  Then you can start another of your AE abilities with a longer cast timer and it will go off right around the time the mobs get up and get to you.  Follow that with your encounter taunt, single target taunt, and then your other AE and you'll have the extra mobs taunted pretty good.  Well, unless your warlock fiancee leads off with Rift.  /sigh<div></div>

[Blutig]

<font size="3"><font face="Courier New">HiyaMay I just clarify, bare handed - you mean not even those knuckle things you can use - which used to be "martial" weapons in EQ1 ?Additionally is this only applicable at higher levels when you have AP set up - Im only 29 and dont even have the AP expansion yet anyway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Fluff.</font></font><div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blutig wrote:<BR><FONT size=3><FONT face="Courier New">Hiya<BR><BR>May I just clarify, bare handed - you mean not even those knuckle things you can use - which used to be "martial" weapons in EQ1 ?<BR><BR>Additionally is this only applicable at higher levels when you have AP set up - Im only 29 and dont even have the AP expansion yet anyway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Fluff.<BR></FONT></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>correct , no weapons of any kind</P> <P> </P> <P>btw fist of bashing /pain are easy enough to get for DW</P> <P> </P>

[tt66]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Madmoon wrote:<div></div><p>Someone once wrote something similar for two handed (2H) weapons, stating what DR it would be worth switching over to it, and some bruisers use both, switching in fights or situations as necessary.  However, I cannot recall what the DR for a 2H needed to be, and with a STA-WIS-INT build there was some negative associated with a 2H as opposed to DW, but, again, I don't remember.</p><p>Simply put, STR AA is very hard to beat.</p><hr></blockquote>Since it seems to come up a lot, here is a quick and dirty way of working out the DR of your barehands. (Using, as an example, my newly-70-bruiser. So the stats may be a bit low compared to the big guys.)1) Unequip all "haste" items, and empty both your hands.2) Type /weaponstats to see the stats for your bare fists. Pay attention to the "base damage" bit. (we're calculating DR, after all).3) Take the average of the two values for base damage, and divide by 2.5 (the delay of fists).4) Multiply by 2. I'm not sure why, it seems required to work out DR. (Check with your other weapons if you don't believe me).So, my bruiser has a base fist damage of 50-83. Therefore, the DR is (66.5/2.5)*2 = 53.2 DR.It is my understanding that the 20% DPS buff only applies to the base fist attacks itself, not the additional procs from going 8 pts into Relentless PunchesSo the combined DPS of going 4/4/8 is : (1.2+0.96) *53.2 = 115DR (equiv)However, for a truly fair comparison, you have to assume that you'll be under the effects of Rabid Cry (25% dps) at all times, so the real figure is(1.2 + 0.96 + 0.25)*53.2*0.8 = 102.5DR (equiv).If you have two weapons (or a single 2hander) totallying less than 102.5DR, then you will have better autoattack damage going 4/4/8 strength.Whether or not the difference in DPS is actually worth the loss of 16AA points and any stats/procs/adornments on the weapon is up to you.(note : please feel free to fact/math check me on this. I'd hate to give out false info).<p>Message Edited by tt66 on <span class="date_text">01-30-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:43 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by tt66 on <span class=date_text>01-30-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[Thoral]

<div></div>If your 53.2 DR is correct, then here's what I get...(53.2 + 53.2*0.45) = 77.14 DR with 45% DPS and before the 96% double attack is applied.77.14 + 77.14 * 0.96 = 151.2 DR if the "double" attack is the same as the first attack meaning that it includes the DPS modifier.I'm not sure if 45 DPS is the same as 45% DPS though because of the diminishing returns curve (200 DPS = 125% DPS).Edit: for clarity<div></div><p>Message Edited by ekopocka on <span class=date_text>01-30-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:58 AM</span>

[tt66]

<div></div>Ekopocka : I'm pretty sure 45 DPS is about 45% DPS, I think you're still on the upcurve at that point. (Seem to recall you don't hit the diminished returns until around 100%?) It's a valid point however, and one worth considering once you start getting DPS adornments, group buffs, the Zek cloak etc. etc.If you don't mind me asking, how certain are you that the double attack is affected by the DPS modifier? I had always thought that when LU23 removed the ability to proc off a double-attack, it removed the DPS modifier as well. (Effectively treating double-attack as a "proc"). Of course, I'm often wrong <span><span>:smileywink:</span></span>But yes, if the additional attack <i>is</i> modified by your DPS modifier, you'll be looking at 151.2 DPS. Which, once you remove Rabid Cry, gives you an equivalent DR of 121DR.<div></div><p>Message Edited by tt66 on <span class=date_text>01-30-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[Thoral]

<div><blockquote><hr>tt66 wrote:<div></div>Ekopocka : I'm pretty sure 45 DPS is about 45% DPS, I think you're still on the upcurve at that point. (Seem to recall you don't hit the diminished returns until around 100%?) It's a valid point however, and one worth considering once you start getting DPS adornments, group buffs, the Zek cloak etc. etc.If you don't mind me asking, how certain are you that the double attack is affected by the DPS modifier? I had always thought that when LU23 removed the ability to proc off a double-attack, it removed the DPS modifier as well. (Effectively treating double-attack as a "proc"). Of course, I'm often wrong <span><span>:smileywink:</span></span>But yes, if the additional attack <i>is</i> modified by your DPS modifier, you'll be looking at 151.2 DPS. Which, once you remove Rabid Cry, gives you an equivalent DR of 121DR.<div></div><p>Message Edited by tt66 on <span class="date_text">01-30-2007</span> <span class="time_text">10:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm not sure at all about DPS mods being added into the double attack.  Now I wanna run home and do some tests!  Bah.  Stupid job.</div>

[JamesRay]

<P>Not sure if this has been brought up, but on my server ancient velium sells cheap:<BR>LEGENDARY<BR>Ancient Velium Claws - Dual Wield Fists/Slashing Damage - works with eagle spin<BR>53.4 Dmg Rating<BR>20 STR<BR>10 AGI<BR>20 STA<BR>80 Health<BR>45 Power<BR>+2 slashing<BR>+1 defense<BR>7% chance to proc 191 cold dmg (not factored into dmg rating)</P> <P>You have quite a few adornment options, +dmg, +dot, life tap/power tap, etc<BR>That is a lot of stat bonuses (40 Str, 20 Agi, 40 sta, 160 HP, 90 power, +4 slash, +2 defense)<BR>Plus use of the lifetap adornment triggers 2x/min at 209 dmg/140 heal per proc as well, which adds up when you're dual wielding them for 4 taps/min.  Not sure how all that translates toward additional dmg rating increase.</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

DPS modifies your damage. It makes your base autoattack damage higher.Procs are something that "processes" when you attack.The change they made was to make it so the extra autoattack "attack" didn't process Procs. That's it. It will still happen more often if you have Haste (since it happens with each autoattack and autoattacks are happening more often). It will still do more base damage with +DPS (since it's a second autoattack, not a proc for X damage).So yes, you still take into account the +DPS for the second attack. Just like Warriors and Crusaders still take into account Haste and DPS modifiers for their Double Attack, and multi-mob attack AA's.<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<div><blockquote><hr>JamesRay wrote:<div></div> <p>Not sure if this has been brought up, but on my server ancient velium sells cheap:LEGENDARYAncient Velium Claws - Dual Wield Fists/Slashing Damage - works with eagle spin53.4 Dmg Rating20 STR10 AGI20 STA80 Health45 Power+2 slashing+1 defense7% chance to proc 191 cold dmg (not factored into dmg rating)</p> <p>You have quite a few adornment options, +dmg, +dot, life tap/power tap, etcThat is a lot of stat bonuses (40 Str, 20 Agi, 40 sta, 160 HP, 90 power, +4 slash, +2 defense)Plus use of the lifetap adornment triggers 2x/min at 209 dmg/140 heal per proc as well, which adds up when you're dual wielding them for 4 taps/min.  Not sure how all that translates toward additional dmg rating increase.</p><hr></blockquote>You have to look at the Damage Rating and compare it all.2x 53.4 DR ends up with 106.8 DR. 7% proc of 191 cold damage translates to only being about ~4 DPS extra (7% is normalized over 3s delay, so 7% of 191, divided by 3 equates to around ~4).. which is not a lot.If you are already at or around 600 Strength, the +40 isn't gonna give you too much extra on your autoattack and CAs. +4 Slash in offensive also doesn't give much... +2 Defense even less in Defensive.Honestly, barehands ends up equaling or beating all that by enough to not warrant going out of your way specifically for those or similar claws.HOWEVER, the power and life tapping adornments gives a UTILITY that surpasses even the loss of DPS. Long raid fights or chain pulling will require decent power regen... something people aren't gonna go out of their way to give Bruisers on a raid. And in my experience on my alts, power procs help a LOT in this regard. Lifetaps help nicely for soloing (especially for non heal accessible classes) or even tanking a bit. I'd go with Power procs, personally... as I tank fine without the lifetaps.</div>