Not needed on raids.....

[mkruger]

<DIV>Is it just me or is there no hope for us on raids.  We offer nothing special at all.  We are not top dps, we have no real buffs for our group, and we can't tank on raids.  So the question is why do guilds even need bruisers??  If a guild needs to add dps or a healer first person to get asked to leave...brusier.  Why is that ever other class as something to offer on raids that make them needed....no one needs a bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry just frustrated cause well we really dont offer much.....dps is the best thing we have and you have to be well geared to be good at that.  My question why is it just our class that offers nothing but we are the ones getting nerfed????</DIV>

[Devast]

bruisers are the same as before eof. dps and off tank when needed. they didnt really make any changes to help us tank epics, in fact they made it worse. there are lots of threads about this.<div></div>

[Risos]

<DIV>Im tellin yah everyone needs cannon fodder!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tiifa</DIV>

[mkruger]

<DIV>well im just saying sks can out dps and out tank us on raids so why even have bruisers there??</DIV>

[Zelkova]

<div></div>Overall we are a weak class in a raid setting, this is true. But we really shine in certain encounters, mainly ones where fighters or brawlers are specifically needed to pull or tank certain mobs, or adds... three princes are chel'drak come to mind. But some of the new EOF encounters are putting us to good use also.Now they just need to fix... our taunt resists which they nerfed AND broke all in one go, and avoidance tanking and we are good to go.In the meantime, I'd suggest buffing up: critical hit rate, recast speeds and getting the new deagro and Knockouts AAs to maximize combat art damage and lower your hate gain as much as possible. With ambidexterity from the original AGI tree and Ring of the Four Winds (if you can get it) you'll have a 13% boost to recast speeds of basically everything including clicky items and you will be putting out some fine DPS... not as good as a non-bard scout but sometimes darn close <span><span>:smileyhappy:Of course you could try to go the tanking route but I wouldn't advise it.</span></span><div></div><b>Edit:</b> Oops, I meant ring of the four winds (which you get for finishing the tower quest line and beating chel'drak), not chel'drak's ring.<p>Message Edited by brekehan on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:00 PM</span>

[Navino]

I can out dps the SK in my guild - And I can out tank him if I really try. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Sorry dude) <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thing is, I don't really try. Because I don't try and outtank him. But dps, well. It's easy.Take the dps AA lines, get yourself some decent weapons and equipment, get your masters and you're set.I haven't ever had the sk do more damage than I do, from what I know. And on some battles, especially those where you must joust the encounter, I come top 6-8, with about 1.5-6k. It's quite nice, but tbh, if you don't slack, you get a better dps amount. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh yeah - Always carry Battlefury (Blessing) and adorn your DT bracelet and MOA necklace with dps + 10 adornments. = Ub4r dps. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Devast]

if the sk is outdps'ing you then you are doing something wrong. they can outtank us no problem usually, but outdps...nope.<div></div>

[mkruger]

<P>sorry the sk's i raid with can do over 1100 dps...dont know what kind of scrub sks you guys raid with lol</P> <P>but yeah i saw saw adornments last night and really they are too expensive right now to buy so ill wait a bit before they go down in price.</P><p>Message Edited by mkruger on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:52 AM</span>

[ganjookie]

<div><blockquote><hr>mkruger wrote:<div>well im just saying sks can out dps and out tank us on raids so why even have bruisers there??</div><hr></blockquote>If any of my guilds SK beat me in DPS I would quit, seriouslyIf a SK is beating you, somebody is doing something wrong.</div>

[Grimchaos87]

I can see an sk doing 1100 dps, but thats crap honestly, and when you have full masters and better gear you will be out parsing that easily.  Self buffs and adornments only you can do more then 1100 dps, yet alone adding a coercer or other dps/haste buffs.<div></div>

[Hun]

Please, one day without this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing whinethreads.If you can't tank on raids, please play another class, coz you just do something wrong.If you can't do dps : look above.The bruisers aren't that much gimped as you say. You just don't wanna try it...<div></div>

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hunte wrote:Please, one day without this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing whinethreads.If you can't tank on raids, please play another class, coz you just do something wrong.If you can't do dps : look above.The bruisers aren't that much gimped as you say. You just don't wanna try it...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Because tanking for us is hardly about skill, it's all about gear. There's not much skill involved in casting Pressure, Oppress and hitting 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 in between (1 is my autoattack and I just use Dropkick/Pound to activate autoattack anyway). Some probably aren't decked out in the best of the best raid gear, for starters, and plate tanks can get by easily with just physical mit and any tower shield plus defensive AAs (ours defensive AAs suck, a lot), we have to worry about a LOT more in comparison and it doesn't surprise me that most have trouble.Well anyway, care to tell what kind of gear you tank so good in?Or would you rather just continue to scold people for not being as leet as you without offering any useful advice?</div>

[Devast]

well with the current mechanics resists are doing just about nothing and it is all about the avoidance. if you can boost your avoidance to 70%+ and maintain over 8k-9k hp you should be tanking on the same level as most other tanks. the only thing bruisers lack compared to the others is the ability to generate as much aoe aggro. we only have so many taunts and aoe's compared to the mechanics of the other tanks. if you are just tanking 1 or 2 epics than a bruiser should do just fine. this is of course until they fix the resists and those resists actually have some meaning, then the bruisers will be at the bottom again thanks to the way the game is designed.<div></div>

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>Devaster wrote:well with the current mechanics resists are doing just about nothing and it is all about the avoidance. if you can boost your avoidance to 70%+ and maintain over 8k-9k hp you should be tanking on the same level as most other tanks. the only thing bruisers lack compared to the others is the ability to generate as much aoe aggro. we only have so many taunts and aoe's compared to the mechanics of the other tanks. if you are just tanking 1 or 2 epics than a bruiser should do just fine. this is of course until they fix the resists and those resists actually have some meaning, then the bruisers will be at the bottom again thanks to the way the game is designed.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I've noticed more differences in resists than before EOF. In some places, anyway. From 2k to 6k resists in Deathtoll I was taking average 1500 damage less from AEs, which is not amazing but it's something. I would not say to get resists as high as possible but it doesn't hurt to stay at 5k or more for the damage you are trying to tank.</div>

[Illustrious]

<P>sorry the sk's i raid with can do over 1100 dps...dont know what kind of scrub sks you guys raid with lol</P> <P>but yeah i saw saw adornments last night and really they are too expensive right now to buy so ill wait a bit before they go down in price.</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>1100 dps aint the end of the line in dps tho, not even close.</P> <P> </P> <P>As a lowly monk i can do zone average parses of 1300+ quite easily in some KoS raid zones and some individual encounters including some named of 2.2 - 2.5k. Im sure higher is possible especially with a corcer in grp (which i never get). definatly dont see our SK doing that yet, tho it would be nice to see (from a raid effort perpective at least)</P>

[Ether]

<P>Sadly, bruisers are at the utter bottom of the barrel in terms of raid desirability.</P> <P> </P> <P>Argueing the DPS capabilities of a bruiser is equally sad, when a smart raid leader will be considering classes that offer DPS + other essential abilities (like debuffing).</P> <P> </P> <P>Countering the above, congratulations you have played one of the easiest classes to solo up to 70, but it stops here. See, it had its price.</P>

[mkruger]

<DIV>someone who got the point of the post to begin with...thank you Etherin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and yes it is possible to do some nice dps, but you have to have the right group set up and good gear....like Etherin said a good raid leader would replace us for more dps/other abilites to help the raid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i love my bruiser and im not going to lvl another toon because i feel there is still stuff to do on my main.  this post was in no way to bash on bruisers we are a great class but we really have nothing at all offer raids.</DIV>

[heelena]

<P>get off the mothermilk and grap a bottle of beer...</P> <P>what the hell is wrong with those players - first the lvl a charakter up to 70 and have fun and suddenly there is a raid and they cant do it anymore... you should all play a fae! if i would be a raid-leader i would replace all of you! because you dont want to be in a raid! if you be in a raid you will be needed for any purpose...</P> <P> </P>

[Shaolin Sam]

<P>Welp... I don't personally see where there's a problem with having bruisers on raids. I usually parse anywhere from 900 to 1800+ DPS on raids. Get me in the right group, with all my abilities up, mob properly debuffed and it's a fast fight and I can reach a peak of around 2700 DPS (top end so far). I "never" have a problem justifying my being there. They lose me... They lose a decent chunk of DPS.</P> <P>Don't underestimate your own class imo. There will always be a place for bruisers. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Devast]

the knockout eof line is making a nice difference in damage. my dps has gone up quite a bit since eof release and i am sure it was meant to be this way since they made everything have so many more hp's and so much tougher.just find your own role and guild to accomodate you and stop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing on the boards already.<div></div>

[mkruger]

<DIV>no one ever said i hated my class now...i even said i still love my bruiser</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>see we have to have a perfect set up with one mob to be doing all this dps.....our problem is UTILITY that is what this post was created for.  we have no utility.  other classes get dps and debuffs, and they were ment to be dps classes so put them in that exact same situation you described and watch them out dps you and add something extra.  sure if they lose you there goes a chunk of dps but they can replace it rather easily......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>everyone comes in here bashing on people when we could have a discussion on what utility we actually bring....oooh we do dps dont think i dont know this, what extra do we add?? wizards can out dps us and they give resist buffs and can pump man for example.  so how about everyone get the hell off their high horse and answer the question what is it that makes us unique on raids?  my point here really isnt anything at all, we are just extra dps....why are we the only class that seems to have 0 utility on raids?</DIV>

[Illustrious]

decent c/p/s debuff and 24% grp dps buff isnt nothing, sure its not uber but its as good as some other classes that get to raid.  Remember there are many classes that are not absolutely "required" on raids but that doesnt mean they dont have a place. No sane raid ldr is going to want several bruisers on the same raid but on the other hand you wouldnt want several of many other classes either.

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>Illustrious wrote:Remember there are many classes that are not absolutely "required" on raids but that doesnt mean they dont have a place.<hr></blockquote>Of course you're right but what all other subclasses have going for them is that there is actually a place for either / or. As it is there is no reason to bring a brawler into a raid, however, if you have anyone who can deal better damage or take a hit better. You should know that melee skill debuffs are useless on raids. Even stacked with an Illusionist the mobs are still going to be hitting plenty, this is intended game design so encounters cannot be trivialized. Rabid Cry is weak, and barely gets a mention most of the time.If they fixed evade tanking, for brawlers in particular, and made some encounters built with this in mind we could have a solid place in (almost) every raid. Mobs that proc AE nukes or debuffs when they strike in melee, would make a brawler an asset if we could actually avoid the hits, and that's just one small example.I really don't think we need any drastic changes, but evasion needs to be fixed and needs to be made WORTH DOING. And that will help brawlers tremendously. Even if we aren't MTing... low maintanence off-tanks, anyone? This is what I'd really like but anything better than we got now would be good at this point... at least they are looking into evasion still.</div>

[Grimchaos87]

I think we can tank just fine, even in raid situations.  Tanked labs last night, and reading the parse gave me a second wind.  I actualy avoided!! /gasp thats right.  Vyemm I avoided 15/28 attacks, on the three amigos I avoided 35/47 attacks.  Avoidence in labs at the very least works fine, and I will now have to test this in other zones.  With the right group setup its more then posible to tank a T7 raid.  key classes are crucial.  Warden is by far the most important IMO.  My mit was at 3749 with the normal healer mit buff, add the wardens more then 1k of instant recast mit, and I was sitting at 4808 on every trash mob I killed.  On named that number was 5500 ish for the first 3:50.  My avoidence was sitting at 69% (I'm honestly dps specced, but I am considering changing that).  Are we the best tanks? no.  Are we viable tanks? yes.  I posted the parses from those two fights on thishttp://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117505&page=11so you can see for yourself.  Btw, with a dps spec I am hitting 1500 dps pretty consistantly in most groups I'm put into in raid.  While tanking I was only hitting 1k-1200 ish on most fights, but I didnt have a coercer in my group.  The group setup was Warden, Mystic, Templar, Assassin, Dirge, Bruiser (me).<div></div>

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>Grimchaos87 wrote:I actualy avoided!! /gasp thats right.  Vyemm I avoided 15/28 attacks, on the three amigos I avoided 35/47 attacks.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Interesting. I know they nerfed labs hard for the combat changes.. but that's impressive <span>:smileyhappy:</span> But also makes me curious how well a defense specced guardian with a tower shield would evade in comparison. I have a feeling the results wouldn't be so good on some of the tougher encounters, like Vilucidae, but who knows. We've spent most of our time in the EOF zones since the release so I personally haven't had much time to screw around in KoS.</div>

[eyes007]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mkruger wrote:<BR> <DIV>someone who got the point of the post to begin with...thank you Etherin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and yes it is possible to do some nice dps, but you have to have the right group set up and good gear....like Etherin said a good raid leader would replace us for more dps/other abilites to help the raid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i love my bruiser and im not going to lvl another toon because i feel there is still stuff to do on my main.  this post was in no way to bash on bruisers we are a great class but we really have nothing at all offer raids.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's BS man, a good raid leader looks to make do with what he/she has, maximise every little usage of his raid force and find ways to achieve what others do but without being fussy. It doesn't take a super raid leader skills to put together a force of required classes to defeat a raid encounter, the "cookie cutter raid force" I mean where's the challenge if you eliminate the hardness factor? To me, that's just called farming.</P> <P>In any case, you might need to adjust your thinking that it's the class that makes the raid. Sure it can be hard, sometimes nigh impossible, but the same mechanics apply to groups as it does to raids. You can give a dude fabled gear, full masters, the best of everything, but if he can't play for beans he isn't any use. I'd take a great player playing a weak class than a mediocre player playing a great class anyday cos at the end of the day, if you can't challenge yourself in EQ2, there isn't anything worth doing until the next expansion and so on.</P> <P>So I say balls to ya! Remember why you made your toon and work towards changing people's opinions and mindsets.</P>

[mkruger]

<DIV>yes a raid leader looks to make do with what he/she has....but why the hell would he pick bruiser if there are other options is the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing question.  yea thats what raiding is farming...you are farming good gear.  and lets look at it from my view, i play on a pvp server and we dont have all the classes so every spot counts and many times you need more healers or more dps so whats the first class you can get rid of....bruiser.  please go back and read that post, it really has no relavence to anything.  "I'd take a great player playing a weak class than a mediocre player playing a great class"  what kind of person would take the weak class over the great class?? you need classes not the the players on raids, if they can do the job then thats all you need, you dont need them to do an amasing job.  you also failed to answer the question what we offer on raids.  so far no one has really given me an answer besides dps and all classes can dps so someone please enlighten me.</DIV>

[eyes007]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mkruger wrote:<BR> <DIV>yes a raid leader looks to make do with what he/she has....but why the hell would he pick bruiser if there are other options is the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing question.  yea thats what raiding is farming...you are farming good gear.  and lets look at it from my view, i play on a pvp server and we dont have all the classes so every spot counts and many times you need more healers or more dps so whats the first class you can get rid of....bruiser.  please go back and read that post, it really has no relavence to anything.  "I'd take a great player playing a weak class than a mediocre player playing a great class"  what kind of person would take the weak class over the great class?? you need classes not the the players on raids, if they can do the job then thats all you need, you dont need them to do an amasing job.  you also failed to answer the question what we offer on raids.  so far no one has really given me an answer besides dps and all classes can dps so someone please enlighten me.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Which is why you shouldn't be a bruiser because it's YOU that fails to see what we can offer. Me, I offer my experience, my help to new raiders who need instruction, the odd pickup of mobs of a healer gets aggro, Main Assist role more often than not. I don't submit to the pessimism that my class is useless, I [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well make my class useful. If you can't then why do you bother posting here or playing a bruiser? It seems like your mind is made up unless you are looking for people to convince you to seriously think about raiding. The points you so glady exclaim to the world just proves you're not raiding for the excitement and challenge, but to farm until you get bored and leave the game. It's laziness like that that gets under my wick because people can't find a worthy challenge so they complain about how [Removed for Content] their class is and how boring the game is and don't bother to do anything about it. You're nothing but a hypocrite if you play a bruiser but maintain our uselessness in raids.</P> <P>So rather than seek enlightenment, maybe you should just look for another class so you don't upset the bruiser community anymore than you have already. </P><p>Message Edited by eyes007 on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[mkruger]

LOL DO YOU READ??? i know what the hell we offer and what we dont.  and the dont's are a lot more than the do's.  congrats that you as a person bring knowledge about raids(which any [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] can read up on) and you can tab through mobs so people can assist through you, really kudos sir.  i know we are not useless, i do just fine in groups and pvp i own, so why dont you just stop assuming [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  if you are good at raiding and have the strats its never a challenge, its fun doing new stuff and i never said i didnt like raiding.  i said we have nothing to offer the raids, and what we do is very marginal and other classes can take our roll.  so you stop assuming [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  i play this game for pvp that is my main focus so maybe raiding is nothing but farming so i can do that better.

[eyes007]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mkruger wrote:<BR> LOL DO YOU READ??? i know what the hell we offer and what we dont.  and the dont's are a lot more than the do's.  congrats that you as a person bring knowledge about raids(which any [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] can read up on) and you can tab through mobs so people can assist through you, really kudos sir.  i know we are not useless, i do just fine in groups and pvp i own, so why dont you just stop assuming [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  <FONT color=#66ff00>if you are good at raiding and have the strats its never a challenge, its fun doing new stuff and i never said i didnt like raiding</FONT>.  i said we have nothing to offer the raids, and what we do is very marginal and other classes can take our roll.  so you stop assuming [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  i play this game for pvp that is my main focus so maybe raiding is nothing but farming so i can do that better.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>alright then simple, stay out of raiding conversations if all you do is pvp. If you know what we offer then why do you keep asking us? The part highlighted in green is the ONLY constructive thing you have said except having the strats and specific toons and that it's not a challenge, yet having the strats and less specific toons makes it harder, does that not make it harder and more fun? Point is, if you don't NOT like raiding, and you only have a bruiser, where is your substance if you CAN raid with others? Also the guy that supported your comments used the right wording to justify his point regarding raid leaders, "Smart", a smart RL will get the objective done in the best most  painless way possible, you on the other hand used the word "Good" which only proves you don't even know the definiton of the word.</P> <P>I understand your aimless point fully don't get me wrong, why use a bruiser to fill up a 24 man raid, the question is why not? Is that last person THAT integral to a raid that he needs to contribute something awesome? Does not the 25% dps buff increase their group's dps that singularly is impressive in itself? Our worth mya be under question, but I'm not gonna give up and be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and accept that. You can say what you will about your bruiser but I can tell you most of the community isn't willing to accept their toon is "marginal" at best and the greater community for that matter.</P><p>Message Edited by eyes007 on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

[mkruger]

lol again with you not reading....i have stated in a few posts that i still like to raid....let me put it so you can maybe understand, what makes us more useful than other classes in raids? there is nothing, rabid cry is overrated and really doesnt do much especially if ur in a group of casters.  and no a lot more challenge is not fun, wiping over and over is never fun.  and what does the definition of the word have to do with anything...it is how you interpret the word in the context of the sentence. the reason why a bruiser doesnt fill up a 24 man raid is because OTHER CLASSES REPLACE US EASILY.  no one said i was giving up either, this is trying to bring attention to the lack of need for us on raid.  you are also welcome to not admit how weak we are when it comes to raid utility and thats fine with me, but dont come here posting ignorant [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like this saying that we are fine as raids that we offer just as much as other classes when we dont.

[eyes007]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mkruger wrote:<BR> lol again with you not reading....i have stated in a few posts that i still like to raid....let me put it so you can maybe understand, what makes us more useful than other classes in raids? there is nothing, rabid cry is overrated and really doesnt do much especially if ur in a group of casters.  and no a lot more challenge is not fun, wiping over and over is never fun.  and what does the definition of the word have to do with anything...it is how you interpret the word in the context of the sentence. the reason why a bruiser doesnt fill up a 24 man raid is because OTHER CLASSES REPLACE US EASILY.  no one said i was giving up either, this is trying to bring attention to the lack of need for us on raid.  you are also welcome to not admit how weak we are when it comes to raid utility and thats fine with me, but dont come here posting ignorant [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like this saying that we are fine as raids that we offer just as much as other classes when we dont.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>we seem to have a problem here with understanding each other's communication because I haven't said you don't like to raid, I said for someone who continues to raid and enjoy it, it disputes the point you're trying to make, YOU seem to get raid invites no problem, YOU like to raid still, YOU are raiding while you explain that bruisers don't have any value in raids so therefore don't get asked?</P> <P>Rabid Cry overrated huh - do you turn yours off and tell everyone that you won't use it because its overrated and adds no value? Please.</P> <P>You're right, dying is no fun, getting it in the end is exceptionally rewarding however.</P> <P>interpretation of the word is only as good as those who read it, I have a different interpretation of the word, you have a different interpretation, if you want people to understand you a) provide a definition b) don't use it / smart raid leader = using the best tools for the job. good raid leader = using what tools you do have to get the job done.</P> <P>hmmm....bruisers offer nothing to raids, other classes replace us easily, rabid cry is overrated...sounds like you've given up on us to me, but I'll defer, if you haven't given up looking out for us and bringing "constructive" attention to our class, perhaps crying out "we suck" isn't exactly the best way to get people on our side particularly other bruisers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>now another misunderstanding, I know there are alternatives to bruisers, I'm certainly not ignorant of that, nor that in every aspect, there is a better version of what we do, my point is always about proving our worth ourselves, changing mindsets, pushing the class to it's limits, not letting up (which is a measure of respect I have for the Paladin Community). We are the strongest tank based melee dps in this game (don't bother about SKs, I saw your post, another brilliant attempt to win the community on your side), coupled with a dirge and inquisitor we hit 80% dps or more, but that's not my point, putting a bruiser with the MT Guardian, the dirge and inquisitor 1) main tank gets crazy dps 2) with hate transfer on bruiser he maintains hate or gets a HUGELY increased aggro base.</P> <P>One thing I will argue strongly against, is that we have nothing to offer, I'll never admit that, I like my class in raids enough to know that isn't a problem in my guild and following the lines of typical progression, those that can't do straight away, will do so eventually, with what they have, with WHO they have. No more arguments please, we're getting nowhere, I for the most part will remain happy as a bruiser in group/pvpv/raids, you on the other hand will still search for his worth in raids, I hope you find it one day friend.</P>

[Ether]

<P>In response to eyes007,</P> <P> </P> <P>Im inclined to believe you simply never have led a raid. I challenge you to go to any server and accumulate information from most of the guild leaders/raid leaders about which class they could easily see themselves without on their next raid. I've been in 3 raid guilds over the course of 2 years now. Never, not once did I opt to lead with my bruiser, or did another RL ask specifically for my bruiser in place of a dirge/brigand/necro/healer (my other alts).</P> <P>If you can provide me with any example of what the raid needs that a bruiser brings that cant be easily replaced with somebody other class in low or high abundance, Ill be silent.</P> <P> </P> <P>So far we seem to be pretty good at triggering traps... but this results in quite a few deaths anyway.</P>

[Prothos]

<P>Ok I will be honest I skimmed over most of the posts. </P> <P> </P> <P>We are not needed in the game except for a few situations.  This could easly be replaced by having 2 personnel with alts in the guild that are brawlers.  I think both Monk and Bruiser have sub par dps and do not tank as well as guardian/zerker.</P> <P> </P> <P>YOU ARE NOT NEEDED.  A SCOUT WILL OWN YOU DPS AND A PLATE TANK WILL DO A BETTER JOB TANKING PERIOD.</P> <P> </P> <P>And honestly to everyone that does not see this then your blind and in your own world.</P>

[mkruger]

<DIV>see eyes there again we need a perfect group to have this amasing dps, and on a pvp server you can't make a perfect group...Etherin and Prothos thank you both for seeing it how i see it.  again eyes you are allowed to believe that everything is fine, but the first step in solving a problem is admitting there is one.</DIV>

[Prothos]

<DIV>Guardian in my guild says,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"To be honest I do not know what Brawlers role in the game is at the moment."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guilds humor us and keep us around to loot the leather and fist weps.</DIV>

[Risos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grimchaos87 wrote:<BR>I think we can tank just fine, even in raid situations.  Tanked labs last night, and reading the parse gave me a second wind.  I actualy avoided!! /gasp thats right.  Vyemm I avoided 15/28 attacks, on the three amigos I avoided 35/47 attacks.  Avoidence in labs at the very least works fine, and I will now have to test this in other zones.  With the right group setup its more then posible to tank a T7 raid.  key classes are crucial.  Warden is by far the most important IMO.  My mit was at 3749 with the normal healer mit buff, add the wardens more then 1k of instant recast mit, and I was sitting at 4808 on every trash mob I killed.  On named that number was 5500 ish for the first 3:50.  My avoidence was sitting at 69% (I'm honestly dps specced, but I am considering changing that).  Are we the best tanks? no.  Are we viable tanks? yes.  I posted the parses from those two fights on this<BR><BR>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117505&page=11<BR><BR>so you can see for yourself.  Btw, with a dps spec I am hitting 1500 dps pretty consistantly in most groups I'm put into in raid.  While tanking I was only hitting 1k-1200 ish on most fights, but I didnt have a coercer in my group.  The group setup was Warden, Mystic, Templar, Assassin, Dirge, Bruiser (me).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Amen.  My raiding experience is limited and so is our guilds content abilities but last night in labs I was parsing number one consistently on every fight.  Doing so usually netted me the mobs hate throughout the fight no matter what happened but no one said a word because I would barely get hit throughout the entire fight, never even enough to get through the group wards and stoneskin spells, so I wouldnt take a single point of damage.  The crazy thing about it was I was in offensive stance the entire time and never even bothered switching to defensive.  Either labs trash just got nerfed that hardcore, or these adornments really are doing something for me.  It's nice to hear that I should be able to avoid on the named too.</P> <P>Tiifa, FF, Nagafen</P>

[Prothos]

No offense but if you parsed no 1 on a raid then your guilds dps is so low its not even funny.  And thats sad.....

[mkruger]

<DIV>yea that is the saddest thing i have ever heard or it is a lie.....because the only way it is true is you dont have wizards or assassins</DIV>

[Prothos]

So true lol....

[eyes007]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mkruger wrote:<BR> <DIV>yea that is the saddest thing i have ever heard or it is a lie.....because the only way it is true is you dont have wizards or assassins</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wonderful man, you have true class there, warming up to more bruisers with your brilliant charm.</P> <P>Let me put it this way, I recognise the stuggles we face as being involved in raids, I recognise we aren't the best of everything but I for one:</P> <P>- remain positive and try my best to change that and peoples mindsets</P> <P>- won't settle for mediocrity (unlike you naysayers)</P> <P>- will always post if I have something constructive to my class</P> <P>These are some things you will never have, still amazes me you get to raid as a bruiser the way you preach about our worthlessness.</P><p>Message Edited by eyes007 on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

[Prothos]

<DIV>I think he is telling it how it is more then how people wish it was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all have differnt ways of putting things.  Whether his is right or wrong most of the people that play the game life in free countries so he has the right to speak his mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are our opinions I am not sawing I am 100%right all the time but I think a lot of people feel this way atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are a medium dps</DIV> <DIV>We are a sub par epic tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where do we fit in?></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly>>></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ZERKER honestly has it all.  But I played a zerker in t5 for to long and I needed a change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[heelena]

<P> </P> <P>i cant believe on which servers you are?</P> <P>i am on valor and have a nice friendlist, build up for the past year.</P> <P>i get tells to join a raid.</P> <P>i get tells to mt nizara, valdoon, obi, mm,....</P> <P>i get congratz from our raidleader being in the raid.</P> <P>i get respect for what our class brings to the raid.</P> <P>i am not uber.</P> <P>we go raiding in kos, have not killed tarrinax yet.</P> <P>so far i cant understand. i see the bruiser not over all classes - but a nice class beeing everything in one. combine the dps and the tanking option makes us NEEDED. so i still cant understand - or i am just lucky? </P> <P>greetz</P> <P>shifter</P> <P> </P>

[eyes007]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prothos wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think he is telling it how it is more then how people wish it was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all have differnt ways of putting things.  Whether his is right or wrong most of the people that play the game life in free countries so he has the right to speak his mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are our opinions I am not sawing I am 100%right all the time but I think a lot of people feel this way atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are a medium dps</DIV> <DIV>We are a sub par epic tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where do we fit in?></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly>>></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ZERKER honestly has it all.  But I played a zerker in t5 for to long and I needed a change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you for a constructive response Prothos, I understand an opinion is every man's entitlement but it's what we do with that opinion that makes the difference. While communities as a whole tend to cry "nerf" and cry wolf over little minor things, it's those comments that generally put people off playing a class and thereby weakening the community (as we all know SOE goes by quantity over quality when it comes to making changes).</P> <P>Crying over spit milk is only making things worse, actively promoting our worth and pushing for positive changes as a whole might seem futile but its at least a step in the right direction, after all the brawler community isn't small by any measure, concerted efforts might get that we want without coming across as a spoilt little child.<BR></P>

[Risos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prothos wrote:<BR> No offense but if you parsed no 1 on a raid then your guilds dps is so low its not even funny.  And thats sad.....<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heheh yes I know, and thats why we are content challenged.  Only one of the people that are on the list are even remotely close and he's an assassin.  I hoped by bragging constantly to them about it they would figure out what they are doing wrong but we will see.:smileysad:  I like them but we are far from a good raid guild...</P> <P>Tiifa</P>

[mkruger]

<DIV>well i have a right to be negative, we really dont have a place in raids to begin with and then they nerf our avoidance and change the entire combat system, please tell me how i am supposed to be positive???  how can you say we are settling for mediocrity? all of my posts have been about how middle of the line or sub par we are. as far as im concerned this is constructive, the longer this post gets more attention then maybe the devs will notice something.  like i said before if we go around happy with our class and dont express the problems then nothing will change.</DIV>

[mkruger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> heelena wrote: <P>so far i cant understand. i see the bruiser not over all classes - but a nice class beeing everything in one. combine the dps and the tanking option makes us NEEDED. so i still cant understand - or i am just lucky?<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>well if you read above, zerkers for one can dps just as well and tank better so there we are not needed, and zerkers can take our spot. also in most cases your gonna want the most dps as you can get on a raid, there is no need to have back up tanks everywhere (when we cant even do that as well as other classes) so then again we can be replaced by a scount or mage for better dps.

[Devast]

movu is just bitter because hes crap at pvp. i dont even know who movu is and he is on my server. must be one of those raiders that is in farm status and has nothing to do but whine about every little thing because he/she cant do it themselves.<div></div>

[mkruger]

who the hell are you first off...and second that is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard in my entire life.  honestly /uninstall and do the world a favor, just because your to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing blind to see an obvious problem dont come here claiming i suck at pvp, quite the opposite actually.  your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] statements have nothing to do with the thread so please take your noob [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] somewhere the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] else.  im tired of all you people pretending things are ok, and that we really have something to offer raids.  we do NOTHING THAT CAN NOT BE DONE BY SOMEONE ELSE.  this isnt a little thing either, but if you want to be a [Removed for Content] and think that go ahead.  what can i not do myself as well?? since that part of your worthless post makes no sense.

[Risos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mkruger wrote:<BR> who the hell are you first off...and second that is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard in my entire life.  honestly /uninstall and do the world a favor, just because your to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing blind to see an obvious problem dont come here claiming i suck at pvp, quite the opposite actually.  your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] statements have nothing to do with the thread so please take your noob [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] somewhere the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] else.  im tired of all you people pretending things are ok, and that we really have something to offer raids.  we do NOTHING THAT CAN NOT BE DONE BY SOMEONE ELSE.  this isnt a little thing either, but if you want to be a [Removed for Content] and think that go ahead.  what can i not do myself as well?? since that part of your worthless post makes no sense.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Too much swearing makes your post unreadable...</P> <P>Tiifa</P>

[mkruger]

<DIV>yea Raijnn is haxx0ring words he shouldnt.....</DIV>

[Risos]

<P>He likes to give me html errors when he intervenes...</P> <P>Tiifa</P>

[heelena]

<P>movu i still dont understand</P> <P>fury can be replaced by warden</P> <P>inqui can be replaced by templer</P> <P>rangers can be replaced by assas</P> <P>zerkers can be replaced by sk´s</P> <P>wizzi can be replaced by necros</P> <P>and and and...</P> <P>everyone is replaceable. if you dont play your class well then you get replaced. read other class-forums then you see that other classes have also problems with identification. non class is better then the other. all classes are able to raid and are good in a raid. no class is more or less uber. if a class brings bonuses to a raid and you think we dont, the start an alt and make yourself happy. i love my bruiser - i wont start a new charakter. i know also that alot of gamers dont know what a bruiser is good for (aahhh leather = weeeaaakk) but those who had the chance to raid with me and group with me are prooved for better. ask them, they will say the best about the bruiser class!</P> <P>shifter</P><p>Message Edited by heelena on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:29 AM</span>

[DisturbedMagg]

<P>I read the first page and skimmed through the rest because a certain someone is constantly repeating themselves.</P> <P> </P> <P>Im going to say this once,</P> <P>I have yet to be benched for a raid. My guild is a raid guild, we 've cleared all KOS zones and working through EoF. Not once has the debate come up were a class has been required over another class, but in reality every class can actually be replaced, im not gonna bother wasting ym time with examples, because some dumb [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on here wont understand anyway. From a "tank" point of view we generally have a zerker, pallydin, sk, bruiser. Guess what, there has been and will continue to be instances where i will end up tanking a epic mob trash or named. I will die (like every tank),  i will and have done many times also lived through it, i dont consider myself nor the bruiser class iself a main tank. However we are there for situations where [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], plain and simple [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s up. The mt drops i gain aggro, i hold aggro and stay alive until either the secondary tank or mt is back up and rdy to tank again, in which i let aggro drop down slightly and he gets the mob back on him. </P> <P> </P> <P>This is an example for you</P> <P> </P> <P>Tank drops - in a perfect situation the second mt will pick it up, im sure you'll also know this doesnt always happen, and more then likely the mob will eat a few DPS before they do. So guess what this little useless class in a raid can do, well sicne im high on the hate list (specially for this situation might i add) generall i few taunts with some dmg gets me aggro, ALTHOUGH! theres also i nice little taunt we get called rescue (guess what!? you can have upto 6 positions with you AA's now! AND GUESS WHAT!? you dont need gear for it ZOMG!)</P> <P>So as i said this useless class in a raid gains aggro takes it back to the wall/corner/ w/e your mt was tanking and pops vigorous spirit and holds aggrp.</P> <P>MT gets to his feet, gets buffed and all the while im stable with this mob, and the healers arnt stressing about it either.</P> <P>MT tells me he's good to go, he'll get aggro back i drop into off/mixed stance and back to DPS'in.</P> <P> </P> <P>and guess what? the mob didnt go through 8 DPS classes, the mob didnt chew up 2,3,4 healers therefore making the raid undoubtably wipe.</P> <P>Read over that and tell me what did i in that certain situation bring to the raid force, then while your at it think of epics/ etc with adds, but im sure you can work that out yourself.</P> <P>If you cant understand what your class brings to situations such as groups, RAIDS etc, then dont bother playing it and certainly dont bother wasting people's time who know how to play their class.</P> <P> </P>

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>DisturbedMaggot wrote:<div></div><p>If you cant understand what your class brings to situations such as groups, RAIDS etc, then dont bother playing it and certainly dont bother wasting people's time who know how to play their class.</p> <p></p><hr></blockquote>So you listed a bunch of fighter-standard duties, and that's what bruisers can bring to a raid? Nevermind that other fighters don't need to put up a mit buff that burns health... and I just have to wonder if the Rescue AA isn't completely useless because it's never failed to give me instant agro in it's current form <span>:smileysurprised: Also, all fighters also have Rescue.</span>The topic at hand is what we can bring to a raid besides for personal skill. And I'm not so sure the "pinch-tank" scenario really answers that question. Sure it's <b>something</b>, but it's not a "bruiser thing"! I could go on and on about my add pulling macros, or how I nearly reach scout quality DPS with my intense combat art damage / recast / crit spec, but that doesn't help out Bruiser joe who's sittin out on a pickup raid because his class didn't come with anything special built-in, you know what I'm sayin?Anyway I agree the OP keeps repeating the same old thing but at least he's right... we don't offer anything that another class can't do even better. Hell we can't even FD and save our own butts as well as everyone else now with Tinkering <span>(</span>99% chance FD ??? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>)They could do things to make us stand out a little more in a raid without affecting our solo ability, too. Like making our str/agi buff a group buff and/or improving Rabid Cry a bit (but more like a LOT, since it wasn't very strong before and now in light of the combat changes it's just that much weaker!).I personally feel all classes deserve, and dare I say NEED to have some quality that makes them stand out as a class all their own and makes them desired, especially in high end raid content where everyone eventually ends up and characters stop developing (or should). To the person who said all classes have raid identity problems: First of all as a full-time T7 raider I strongly disagree, only a few classes have a serious lack of class-specific roles. But, let's say you're right just for a minute... would you consider this acceptable or would you consider it a problem? I'm sure you already know my answer <span>:smileywink:</span></div>

[DisturbedMagg]

<DIV>You want to equal a scouts DPS, roll a scout. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A scout is there to DPS</DIV> <DIV>A guard is there to tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see myself there to off tank and do what ever dps i do between grabbing adds about to wtfpwn the healers and tank in a tough spot if the MT drops. If thats saves the day then what else do you need? DPS? o yeah! Lets do mad DPS and pwn the mob while the tanks down and hope we kill it before it kills the other 23members of the raid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a said i have yet to be benched, if you get benched for "better" classes you obviously arnt proving yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the reason we dont excell at either DPS or tanking is becasue we get the best of both worlds, theres no doubt in my mind that they should have or should do 2 seperate AA lines. One strictly DPS one strictly Tanking BUT once you start in one line you cant enter the other withou /respec. But each line should signficantly increase the users choice. Although tbh, im fine with the way i am and wouldnt know which to take, and prosuming it didnt mess up the current bruiser stats etc like another combat revamp (but just for us) i prolly woudnt change</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:19 AM added last paragraph</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:21 AM</span>

[Prothos]

<DIV>Well it's all a point of view.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But a lot of people still miss the point.  A zerker could take your spot off tank better then you and do around or above your dps.  THIS IS MY POINT!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You honestly have no prema roll in a guild.  So you pick hate up once in a while or some crap thats not my point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><EM>You can be replaced by others that do the job better.</EM></U></STRONG></DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> heelena wrote:<BR> <P>movu i still dont understand</P> <P>fury can be replaced by warden</P> <P>inqui can be replaced by templer</P> <P>rangers can be replaced by assas</P> <P>zerkers can be replaced by sk´s</P> <P>wizzi can be replaced by necros</P> <P>and and and...</P> <P>everyone is replaceable. if you dont play your class well then you get replaced. read other class-forums then you see that other classes have also problems with identification. non class is better then the other. all classes are able to raid and are good in a raid. no class is more or less uber. if a class brings bonuses to a raid and you think we dont, the start an alt and make yourself happy. i love my bruiser - i wont start a new charakter. i know also that alot of gamers dont know what a bruiser is good for (aahhh leather = weeeaaakk) but those who had the chance to raid with me and group with me are prooved for better. ask them, they will say the best about the bruiser class!</P> <P>shifter</P> <P>Message Edited by heelena on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:29 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you wouldnt replace a brigand for a swashie though so the rule doesnt apply for all plus i wouldnt swap an sk for a pali as the pali is more valauble with poa , amends and healing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Ether]

DisturbedMaggot (suitable name at this point),No intelligent raid guild assigns the bruiser to the MA position. The situtation you describe is what might happen if both the MT and MA go down. Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.It has nothing to do with skill playing a bruiser, its the tools that SOE has given us. They are simply lacking. Im here posting as I would like to see some changes to allow me to feel comfortable about bringing my bruiser back to raids. I've got 4 other raiding alts and all of them offer far more.Nice try though...

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etherin wrote:<BR>DisturbedMaggot (suitable name at this point),<BR><BR>No intelligent raid guild assigns the bruiser to the MA position. The situtation you describe is what might happen if both the MT and MA go down. Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.<BR><BR>It has nothing to do with skill playing a bruiser, its the tools that SOE has given us. They are simply lacking. Im here posting as I would like to see some changes to allow me to feel comfortable about bringing my bruiser back to raids. I've got 4 other raiding alts and all of them offer far more.<BR><BR>Nice try though...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>hmm i dont get that comment mate ? the MA is simply what the raid is targeting through any class can be MA , for example im MA on my brigand

[tomsky]

<P>couple of points from raidin 70 bruiser </P> <P>1) If your being out dps'ed by a SK, i would be extremly worried, SK dps is worse then templars in some ways lol, and dont listen to navino he's a n00b :smileywink: </P> <P>2) You dont have to be really well geared for DPS'ing, 2 decent weapons u can generally get from broker - Fists of fire breath/ancient velium claws (cheap) or fists of pain/bashing (lot more priced)</P> <P>3) Other uses for us include our 25% dps mod buff, if your in a melee group you are a big asset to them adding a hell of alot more damage to them, aswell as a 44% avoidance buff on 1 group mate.</P> <P>4) Feign Death - Always useful if going to a raid zone where mobs can repop - E.g Deathtoll, if you FD at last minute and are able to rez ppl, instead of having to clear all the trash again it is alot more easier for this and people appreciate it alot more and like having time saved. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>But yeah, mostly were useless for raids, still more useful to have 5 bruisers then 5 guardians tho lol eh? we can off tank if needed, but if your guild is decent enough you shouldnt need to, and another use for us? raising the DKP those slimy monks have to spend!!! best use ever</P>

[Prothos]

Just have a Necro FD or tink sicne they can make FD items or some crap now.

[Prothos]

Necro = more dps then us and FD ^^

[Risos]

<DIV>Wouldn't it be great if Rabid Cry got a haste buff added to it as well?  Yay for more procs!  Although I doubt that would silence the crowd it would make me much happier.  Two bruisers in a dps group would equal 50% haste 50% dps, I think that would help a bit.  Do monks haste, dps buffs go group wide?  I'm on a pvp server so I don't really get to see them in action unless their lying on the ground at my feet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tiifa</DIV>

[chOgg]

<div></div>I'm not at all qualified to give serious input to this thread, but I had something happen the other night I think is hilarious after reading this thread.I just reached level 70 and thought to myself, wow, I can go on a labs raid now, when Zeropointmodule says in 60-69 chat that they are looking for a brawler for a labs trash raid.  I thought to myself, nobody looks for a brawler for a raid!  Wow!  So I went.  I wasn't sure what to expect because I'm Captain Mastercrafted.It turns out they needed someone with a fast FD to pull the named away from the doors.  LOL.  However, since it was my first time in Labs, I had a great time doing it.  I even got a relic leather tunic out of it!Oh, and I learned that we can use FD to just walk right on by epics if I have a minute or so.  Just pop FD, weight a few seconds, take 1 step, pop it again, rinse, and repeat.  I would have been able to rejoin the raid quickly without dying except for the last FD.  I thought I would be okay and I took two steps and jumped instead of one with another FD, and the epic knocked me about 20 yards down the stairs in the air.  It was totally awesome.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>Thoral i am not sure you can classify labs trash runs as raiding. Which brings up an entirely different debate. Unless you consider being the best class to avoid raiding our defined role. </P> <P>EDIT:Which if they added pulling (fake death, agro reduction, short duration weaponshield immunities, ecounter splilting) as our role in raids many, MANY brawlers would be alot happier to actual have a role.  </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:25 PM</span>

[chOgg]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Thoral i am not sure you can classify labs trash runs as raiding. Which brings up an entirely different debate. Unless you consider being the best class to avoid raiding our defined role. </p> <p>EDIT:Which if they added pulling (fake death, agro reduction, short duration weaponshield immunities, ecounter splilting) as our role in raids many, MANY brawlers would be alot happier to actual have a role.  </p><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">12-19-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:25 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yeah Gungo, that's why I wasn't trying to actually argue any point but just relate the story.  However, you've turned my babbling into a good point.  I'd LOVE to have more unique abilities for pulling.  We already have feign death and several short immunities.  Your suggestion of encounter splitting would be extremely useful and make brawlers essential for every raid, though it would also mean that the difficutly of the encounters would be changed to compensate for the ability to split the encounter."best class to avoid raiding"...LOL.</div>

[mkruger]

<DIV>ok for people who dont feel like reading through half the garbage that people are posting about this thread let me summarize......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We have no defined role on raids</DIV> <DIV>2. Other classes can replace us for raids and do a better job</DIV> <DIV>3. Our utility on raids is almost non exisitent</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im glad to see more people seeing it the way i do, with the nerf to avoidance and the entire combat system it has made us even less wanted in raids (i almost typed needed, but we all know no one NEEDS a bruiser).  so with every expansion in the history of EQ and EQ2 there have been more problems created then fixed.  imo the devs need to stop designing new content for awhile figure out a way to fix the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up now.  everyone who thinks we do just fine in raids is right, we do fine in raids, the problem is we dont do anything someone else can't do better.  if you think otherwise please re-roll or /uninstall cause you are ignorant to the problems our class is facing, and for the final time untill we get enough people to see that there is a problem nothing will change.</DIV>

[DisturbedMagg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etherin wrote:<BR>DisturbedMaggot (suitable name at this point),<BR><BR>No intelligent raid guild assigns the bruiser to the MA position. The situtation you describe is what might happen if both the MT and MA go down.<FONT color=#ffff00><U> Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.<BR></U></FONT><BR>It has nothing to do with skill playing a bruiser, its the tools that SOE has given us. They are simply lacking. Im here posting as I would like to see some changes to allow me to feel comfortable about bringing my bruiser back to raids. I've got 4 other raiding alts and all of them offer far more.<BR><BR>Nice try though...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>1) Didn't say MA position</P> <P>2) (highlighted) Name a tool any class has to recover from a wipe,<U> without</U> naming a plate tank. As i stated i have numerous times had [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] gone wrong were ive tanked the mob, be it trash or named till it died.</P> <P>As i said, i see it as best of both worlds - There is no doubt at all, that SOE should impliment AA'S or w/e that split the bruiser apart so you can choose which path you can take, e.g tank or DPS. Maybe its different on your server but i know of 3 raiding guilds that always have a bruiser with them, except if they turn up for raids, and im not talking random guilds, these are ones that raid everynight and have other classes that can apprently replace the brusier class.</P> <P>Some other post said bruiser can be replaced by a zerker, so you wouldnt sooner have the likes of guardian backup tank compared to a zerker or like in certain zones you dont need 6 healers you can role with 4 does that mean the 2 healer left out for that raid arnt a required class? No, just means they arnt needed at that moment. I understand what your saying by we have no role, my point of view is im there incase [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hits, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] can always go  wrong in every zone regardless of how many times you do it. Theres always a chance something will [Removed for Content] up. Instead of taking this attitude with it, tell SOE what you want instead of going round in circles, you want DPS then lose any tanking abiltiles we have. You want tanking abilties on scale with or near zerkers/guardians lose your DPS. You wont get both, because we'll be back at square one again with people complaing we overpowered and we'll get nerfed 100 times again. A split of the class seems the easiest way imo.</P>

[McDade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <DIV>You want to equal a scouts DPS, roll a scout. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A scout is there to DPS</DIV> <DIV>A guard is there to tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see myself there to off tank and do what ever dps i do between grabbing adds about to wtfpwn the healers and tank in a tough spot if the MT drops. If thats saves the day then what else do you need? DPS? o yeah! Lets do mad DPS and pwn the mob while the tanks down and hope we kill it before it kills the other 23members of the raid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a said i have yet to be benched, if you get benched for "better" classes you obviously arnt proving yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the reason we dont excell at either DPS or tanking is becasue we get the best of both worlds, theres no doubt in my mind that they should have or should do 2 seperate AA lines. One strictly DPS one strictly Tanking BUT once you start in one line you cant enter the other withou /respec. But each line should signficantly increase the users choice. Although tbh, im fine with the way i am and wouldnt know which to take, and prosuming it didnt mess up the current bruiser stats etc like another combat revamp (but just for us) i prolly woudnt change</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:19 AM added last paragraph</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#66ffff size=3>this is my third try at this post which starte out as a well thought out and very convincing arguement for BRUISER TO STICK TOGETHER ....but the forums keep dleting what I take the time to type and I am very frustrated ...sot all I have to say is  .....Hey MAGGOT ...you siad this in a different thread;</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff size=3>"<FONT color=#ffffff>In reply to the ppl saying we cant tak heroics and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] we can, we can dps. what we are trying to put across is the fact that we dont excel in either and that if there was one position left in a grp /raid and you had a choice of w/e class u want (regarless of person behind the wheel) a bruiser will always fall short.</FONT><FONT color=#66ffff>"</FONT></FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#66ffff size=3>You can't even agree with yourself .....stop posting and let the rest of us work on getting some Dev love for the Bruiser class ......BTW ....you seem to want to tank sometimes and DPS sometimes .....Roll a Berzerker ....and you will be better at both ....or a Brigand ....or a Swashie</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#66ffff size=3>Mcdade</FONT></STRONG></P>

[Ether]

Darkmirrax,Most guilds will use an MA capable of holding aggro and taking over the MT position should he fall. Granted however, the discussion was about the possibility of a bruiser taking over the MT position (regardless of prior MA status). A bruiser, with their abysmal group taunting capabilities is not particularly well suited to this.

[Prothos]

<DIV>Either way I will play my Bruiser but I want either the choice to be MT or DPS or for SoE to decide for us and acually let us have a defined role.  Thats it....</DIV>

[DisturbedMagg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> McDade wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <DIV>You want to equal a scouts DPS, roll a scout. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A scout is there to DPS</DIV> <DIV>A guard is there to tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see myself there to off tank and do what ever dps i do between grabbing adds about to wtfpwn the healers and tank in a tough spot if the MT drops. If thats saves the day then what else do you need? DPS? o yeah! Lets do mad DPS and pwn the mob while the tanks down and hope we kill it before it kills the other 23members of the raid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a said i have yet to be benched, if you get benched for "better" classes you obviously arnt proving yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the reason we dont excell at either DPS or tanking is becasue we get the best of both worlds, theres no doubt in my mind that they should have or should do 2 seperate AA lines. One strictly DPS one strictly Tanking BUT once you start in one line you cant enter the other withou /respec. But each line should signficantly increase the users choice. Although tbh, im fine with the way i am and wouldnt know which to take, and prosuming it didnt mess up the current bruiser stats etc like another combat revamp (but just for us) i prolly woudnt change</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:19 AM added last paragraph</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#66ffff size=3>this is my third try at this post which starte out as a well thought out and very convincing arguement for BRUISER TO STICK TOGETHER ....but the forums keep dleting what I take the time to type and I am very frustrated ...sot all I have to say is  .....Hey MAGGOT ...you siad this in a different thread;</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff size=3>"<FONT color=#ffffff>In reply to the ppl saying we cant tak heroics and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] we can, we can dps. what we are trying to put across is the fact that we dont excel in either and that if there was one position left in a grp /raid and you had a choice of w/e class u want (regarless of person behind the wheel) a bruiser will always fall short.</FONT><FONT color=#66ffff>"</FONT></FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#66ffff size=3>You can't even agree with yourself .....stop posting and let the rest of us work on getting some Dev love for the Bruiser class ......BTW ....you seem to want to tank sometimes and DPS sometimes .....Roll a Berzerker ....and you will be better at both ....or a Brigand ....or a Swashie</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#66ffff size=3>Mcdade</FONT></STRONG></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have never disputed we dont excell at anything. Ive said all along it would be nice for the bruiser class to split so it can be either as we are, DPS bruiser (and hit DPS number slike assns etc) or a tank bruiser (and tank on par with guardians etc but avoidance based that works).</P> <P>But all i ever read is bruisers are useless in raid situations, then why the [Removed for Content] do so may guilds take them consistantly night after night. Obviously that alone proves they bring something to a raid. Without going into detail, there was a hardcore raiding guild who needed a bruiser, this guild has cleared all kos instances and killed all contested, on there site they had needed classes listed it said the following - </P> <P>Bruiser (<FONT color=#ff0000>HIGH PRIORITY</FONT>)</P> <P>Again i ask why the [Removed for Content] would a hardcore raiding guild which owns the server want a "useless, doesnt bring anything to a raid" class as high priority?But wait! Obviously they dont know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] their on about, they are obviosuly clueless raid leaders, that owned each contested (inc matron) week in week out out of nothing but pure luck. Obviously there wasting the guild space, and should [Removed for Content] a bruiser of completly and instead get a scout or another tank, even better! Get a zerker!</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Diapause]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>"Again i ask why the [Removed for Content] would a hardcore raiding guild which owns the server.."</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This proves you don't know crap of what your talking about. You play on the same server as Dissolution, they might have an issue with your 'owns the server' statement. <BR>

[aislynn00]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brekehan wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>I have a feeling the results wouldn't be so good on some of the tougher encounters, like Vilucidae, but who knows. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Last time we did Vilucidae, I avoided 21% of all attacks.  That was solely due to blocks (I was using a fabled tower shield); no misses nor any parries whatsoever.  I assume a brawler wouldn't see any misses or parries either, so your avoidance would be lower than that of a guardian using a tower shield, or pretty much equivalent if the guardian were using the buckler line.

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> brekehan wrote: <div>I have a feeling the results wouldn't be so good on some of the tougher encounters, like Vilucidae, but who knows. </div> <hr> </blockquote>Last time we did Vilucidae, I avoided 21% of all attacks.  That was solely due to blocks (I was using a fabled tower shield); no misses nor any parries whatsoever.  I assume a brawler wouldn't see any misses or parries either, so your avoidance would be lower than that of a guardian using a tower shield, or pretty much equivalent if the guardian were using the buckler line.<hr></blockquote>Yes, I was actually referring to a brawler tanking those encounters. But helpful info regardless, so thank you <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>At least it would seem that "uncontested block" is working as intended, and that contested avoidance is still completely worthless? Hehe</div>

[DisturbedMagg]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diapause wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>"Again i ask why the [Removed for Content] would a hardcore raiding guild which owns the server.."</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This proves you don't know crap of what your talking about. You play on the same server as Dissolution, they might have an issue with your 'owns the server' statement. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>1) Why would they have a problem with it for one? I was refering to numerous guilds that own a server, my example was of a guild on a different server though. so again it doesnt even concern disso, so i have no idea how the [Removed for Content] your read my previous post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> 2) obviously you dont know w tf your on about cuz im on splitpaw server. So gratz you<BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:20 PM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etherin wrote:<BR>Darkmirrax,<BR><BR>Most guilds will use an MA capable of holding aggro and taking over the MT position should he fall. Granted however, the discussion was about the possibility of a bruiser taking over the MT position (regardless of prior MA status). A bruiser, with their abysmal group taunting capabilities is not particularly well suited to this.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>why thats what a ST is for ? MA is just who the raids dps is targeted through an MA will should never get aggro im still conufesed why anyone would use a backup tank as an Ma .. oh well lol its late <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Ether]

Darkmirrax,Semantic discussion never usually end well. That you have never heard of guilds using an MA that is also the secondary tank is suprising. I would of course welcome a discourse on the topic. If Im not mistaken, your main is a brigand, so I can see where being the MA might make sense... if the MT locks down an encounter, you get to aim the DPS and provide the first essential debuffs to start off on that mob. The flaw in that strategy might however be that the brigand needs to generate quite a bit of hate on your target with said debuffs. There are thus reasons to let the MA be someone with inherent defense to initially generate good aggro on a target and pull it away from the MT. If your MT locks down all of your encounters reliably, thats great.This has unfortunately deviated from the OP.. so to put things back on track...Bruisers suck in raids...There that feels better.

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Etherin wrote:DisturbedMaggot (suitable name at this point),No intelligent raid guild assigns the bruiser to the MA position. The situtation you describe is what might happen if both the MT and MA go down. Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.It has nothing to do with skill playing a bruiser, its the tools that SOE has given us. They are simply lacking. Im here posting as I would like to see some changes to allow me to feel comfortable about bringing my bruiser back to raids. I've got 4 other raiding alts and all of them offer far more.Nice try though... <hr> </blockquote>hmm i dont get that comment mate ? the MA is simply what the raid is targeting through any class can be MA , for example im MA on my brigand<hr></blockquote>From my expirience brawlers make the best MAs. If that brawler was hardcore tanking heroic content all the better as he'll usually be quick to switch between targets.<div></div>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>Etherin wrote:Darkmirrax,Semantic discussion never usually end well. That you have never heard of guilds using an MA that is also the secondary tank is suprising. I would of course welcome a discourse on the topic. If Im not mistaken, your main is a brigand, so I can see where being the MA might make sense... if the MT locks down an encounter, you get to aim the DPS and provide the first essential debuffs to start off on that mob. The flaw in that strategy might however be that the brigand needs to generate quite a bit of hate on your target with said debuffs. There are thus reasons to let the MA be someone with inherent defense to initially generate good aggro on a target and pull it away from the MT. If your MT locks down all of your encounters reliably, thats great.This has unfortunately deviated from the OP.. so to put things back on track...Bruisers suck in raids...There that feels better.<hr></blockquote>We usually switch between wizard and monk as our MA. They both get the job done very well. If I wanted to put a brigand on a target the MT isn't targeting, I'd put a secondary tank on that target. But that's usually not the case, since the brigand would debuff the hardest mob in the encounter and that mob is usually the mob the MT is actively generating hate on.<div></div>

[TheSummoned]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DisturbedMaggot wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Diapause wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> DisturbedMaggot wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <p>"Again i ask why the [Removed for Content] would a hardcore raiding guild which owns the server.."</p></blockquote> <hr> </blockquote>This proves you don't know crap of what your talking about. You play on the same server as Dissolution, they might have an issue with your 'owns the server' statement. <hr> </blockquote> <div>1) Why would they have a problem with it for one? I was refering to numerous guilds that own a server, my example was of a guild on a different server though. so again it doesnt even concern disso, so i have no idea how the [Removed for Content] your read my previous post.</div> <div> </div> <div> 2) obviously you dont know w tf your on about cuz im on splitpaw server. So gratz you</div><p>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <span class="date_text">12-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:20 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Maybe you should apply to Fable. I heard they were brawlerless <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (and still No.1 on the server) EDIT: Oh wait. Pauzze returned to raiding after his break it seems. That should fill their brawler needs quite well.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TheSummoned on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 AM</span>

[allegacy]

<div></div>k this is just a suggestion/awnser/reference to what you postedYou said.We offer nothing special at all.I say.While this may hold true , we have nothing like dispatch , secure , vines , nothing that demits the mobs resist/mit.(reference)We do have Eye Gash , may not be the best thing offered , but still can be used. +1Rabid Cry , M1 - 25 bonus to non combat CA attack rate. Dunno about you but 25 is a fairly hefty number. Fairly close to zerk proc. +1Now through the bruiser AA , we have Drag and Stoneskin proc 20% chance on a successful riposte. +1I highly doubt you have been to inner sanctum MM and if so , i doubt you have made it to Tacticians Armor.Anyone who knows about this , this is where Drag comes into play bigtime. +1If you havent scored enough AA for Drag , then atleast give it a shot , its fairly decent.You said.We are not top DPS.I say.I agree with you here , you asked a question and pretty much awnsered it yourself.While we may not be listed for Uber DPS , that does not mean you cannot achieve big numbers on raids.This includes buffed or not buffed , Dirge or no Dirge , Coercer or no Coercer , Illu or no Illu , Conjy or no Conjy. Zerk or no Zerk.While it might take a bit of work , you can get your numbers up.You should not be getting outparsed by a SK , kudos to the SK for getting those kind of numbers. But you should not fall below his average.You said.We can't tank on raids.I say.Any average excarnate/renegade equipped bruiser should not have a issue MA'n on raids.This includes add control(working with your chanters/bards/necro-any class that has control over a single target)Many high end raids , I work with a zerker to help with add control , especially in Inner sanctum MM.Thankfully our healers = teh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e and a decent guard , i dont have to fool with tanking boss's , but have had to tank Vyemm before.Classic trio tank split - if you know anything about dealing with Tari - guard/zerk/bruiser combo ftw.SummaryIm pretty sure their are alot of corners i left out , mainly because i didnt feel like doing a detail at 4am.But from what you have asked , and said , i can fairly sum up a few things.1. obviously you are behind on high end raiding2. your trying to force your view on others without having played the high end completely.3. while i agree we may lack in the utility department , we offer other services , some which i explained.Suggestions1. try to be more knowledgeable of the class2. do something more then a labs raid ?3. your character on eq2players is access denied , cant see your gear , cant comment. wanna see mine ? Sarikan on eq2players , nothing to hide.Edit: add to suggestions , hook up with rallos zek deity , finish it up , use those blessings and miracles , cloak is fairly decent.if you havent already done so.<div></div><p>Message Edited by allegacy on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 AM</span>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diapause wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>"Again i ask why the [Removed for Content] would a hardcore raiding guild which owns the server.."</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This proves you don't know crap of what your talking about. You play on the same server as Dissolution, they might have an issue with your 'owns the server' statement. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>1) Why would they have a problem with it for one? I was refering to numerous guilds that own a server, my example was of a guild on a different server though. so again it doesnt even concern disso, so i have no idea how the [Removed for Content] your read my previous post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> 2) obviously you dont know w tf your on about cuz im on splitpaw server. So gratz you<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:20 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This guild obviously has either a: no Bruiser or b:no high playtime Bruiser. </P> <P> </P> <P>Would love to see you link the website of said guild though..</P>

[Ether]

Couple responses:1) Allegacy, invoking the idea that if people arent satisfied with their raiding bruiser, that they must be playing incorrectly or subpar is as naive as it always has been.2) Ezahia, any chance I can inspire you to expand on why you prefer the bruiser as the MA? Not trying to be confrontational, just really want to know. My view is that the optimal raiding strategy is usually to have an MA that can also pick up the MT duty if needed. Bruisers again lack the ability to 'clean up' a disjunct group encounter.I'd almost be inclined to assume that people finding their bruisers extremely satisfying to raid with, simply havent raided with many other classes to know what really helps out the team.

[allegacy]

im not invoking any idea here , the dude was short and to the point about a useless class being on a raidi just gave him a few things i thought on a personal level about the class i like , even agreed with some of the points he madeobviously he lacks any true high end knowledge , hey im not argueing the fact they we are the most replaceable spot on a raid force , im not argueing that we are fairly useless , or class to be , im simply pointing out a few things.and if you are losing a parse to a SK , you are playing subpar to your class ability , and this may be the only point i made , and that is the well spoken truth.and if he isnt happy with the bruiser class , by all means i didnt tell him to stick with it , just gave a few opinions on things to change if he i sstill gonna be playing itso pls enlighten me about this naive you speak of ?<div></div>

[eyes007]

<P>It's really a waste of time Alle, Etherin and MKruger are adamant that the light is dim on their side of the road while refusing to believe that others have a better view of it, let them rant, I doubt many people think their opinions are worth much anyway, they've already told the entire bruiser community that they suck which leads me to question why they even post here if it isn't of any value.</P>

[eyes007]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etherin wrote:<BR>Couple responses:<BR><BR>1) Allegacy, invoking the idea that if people arent satisfied with their raiding bruiser, that they must be playing incorrectly or subpar is as naive as it always has been.<BR><BR>2) Ezahia, any chance I can inspire you to expand on why you prefer the bruiser as the MA? Not trying to be confrontational, just really want to know. My view is that the optimal raiding strategy is usually to have an MA that can also pick up the MT duty if needed. Bruisers again lack the ability to 'clean up' a disjunct group encounter.<BR><BR><FONT color=#66ff00>I'd almost be inclined to assume that people finding their bruisers extremely satisfying to raid with, simply havent raided with many other classes to know what really helps out the team.<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All this proves is your view is narrow-minded etherin, when will you take in the point that "other people" equals more opinions than yours so therefore might have truth in their statements. I would be inclined to believe that YOU'RE the one that has limited raiding experience with other classes and optimal setups etc. which can be understandable if you're entirely comfortable with the only way you know how.</P> <P>That's just my assumption so don't bother trying to prove it wrong, and naivety has a two edged sword my friend, naive is also not being able to look outside the box and see that there is another world out there that involves raiding bruisers. Another word for that is called "progressive".</P> <P>You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have absolutely been found wanting.</P> <P>Welcome to the New World.</P> <P>God save you, if it is right that he should do so.</P>

[DisturbedMagg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diapause wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>"Again i ask why the [Removed for Content] would a hardcore raiding guild which owns the server.."</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This proves you don't know crap of what your talking about. You play on the same server as Dissolution, they might have an issue with your 'owns the server' statement. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>1) Why would they have a problem with it for one? I was refering to numerous guilds that own a server, my example was of a guild on a different server though. so again it doesnt even concern disso, so i have no idea how the [Removed for Content] your read my previous post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> 2) obviously you dont know w tf your on about cuz im on splitpaw server. So gratz you<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:20 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe you should apply to Fable. I heard they were brawlerless <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (and still No.1 on the server)<BR><BR>EDIT: Oh wait. Pauzze returned to raiding after his break it seems. That should fill their brawler needs quite well.<BR> <P>Message Edited by TheSummoned on <SPAN class=date_text>12-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:00 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Quick explanation, again im not going into details so take it as it is.</P> <P>Left nek cuz im uk based and i decided i was gonna try raiding at a less insane time so went to sp, app'd to Fable, had the guild invitation inf ront of me and declined for my own personal reason. From what i was told Pauzze was fed up, so left (for w/e  reason, non of my business) but still logged in to help them. e.g 3P's etc. Anywayz thats what i was told from a member soOooO Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. </P> <P> </P> <P>And i cant show you the website due to the fact they dont require one now so its no longer there :smileytongue:</P>

[DisturbedMagg]

<DIV>I cant believe theres actually other ppl who dont agree with the "were useless in xxx " Theres me thinking everyone thinks were completly utterly useless and we always get benched except me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eyes 007 -  Alle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was one of the ppl who said if you cant do xxx then u must be playing your class wrong and i'll stick with it to an extent <3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i dont get is this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say SOE gave you a choice you could be either...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solid DPS but have no tanking abilty  OR tank but not much in the way of DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which would you choose, obviously it varies from person to person but say you could choose, think and decide.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once you have your decision /log, Click create new charater, pick the option you decided on.</DIV>

[allegacy]

<div></div>say soe did give us the optioni wouldnt have to reroll , as i dont have to reroll right nowexample/comparison/referenceGoodany good swash or brig can break 2.5k dps single target yes ? if you havent seen one do it , then ya need a new rogue.any good bruiser should be able to break 1.5 easily.match those numbers-we are doing 1.0k less then the decent played swash!Well Played/uberany well played swash should be able to break atleast 3.5k , and thats maybe extending it.any well played bruiser can top 2.2k , thats pushing the limit , give or take a possible flux of 2.0k through 2.5k.we are 1k and under now of a difference.Summarythese other class's will out-do you as a utility class , they may even out-buff you , and even out-dps you.their is no need to reroll if you wanna do dps as a bruiser , you just gotta know when and what combo to use when the mob is debuffed , alot of it is timing , and yes , being buffed helps , usually coercer/conj/dirge/zerk can push your numbers WELL over any dps issue you might have.the point being argued isdo we usually get buffed this way. - usually not.do we bring utility - no.can we parse well without having to be superbuffed - yes.can we stay in boundary of other class's(major dps class's) when properly buffed - yes.would we be asked to sit out for another class - yes.can we tank trash - yes.can we tank boss's - some.are we a viable MT - no.do we have fun while playing - hell yes.if you have issues with the class , try to find a way to work with it , and make it work.if you get frustrated , then reroll and try something else or take some time off.i personally enjoy playing a bruiser , and these things i said are purely a personal view , and account of things i have seen while playing the class , and i wont force anything on you to make you believe a bruiser is what you want or not want to play , or believe they can or cannot bring anything to a raid.<div></div><p>Message Edited by allegacy on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:19 PM</span>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> allegacy wrote:<BR> say soe did give us the option<BR><BR>i wouldnt have to reroll , as i dont have to reroll right now<BR><BR>example/comparison/reference<BR><BR>Good<BR><BR>any good swash or brig can break 2.5k dps single target yes ? if you havent seen one do it , then ya need a new rogue.<BR><BR>any good bruiser should be able to break 1.5 easily.<BR><BR>match those numbers-<BR><BR>we are doing 1.0k less then the decent played swash!<BR><BR>Well Played/uber<BR><BR>any well played swash should be able to break atleast 3.5k , and thats maybe extending it.<BR><BR>any well played bruiser can top 2.2k , thats pushing the limit , give or take a possible flux of 2.0k through 2.5k.<BR><BR>we are 1k and under now of a difference.<BR><BR>Summary<BR><BR>these other class's will out-do you as a utility class , they may even out-buff you , and even out-dps you.<BR>their is no need to reroll if you wanna do dps as a bruiser , you just gotta know when and what combo to use when the mob is debuffed , alot of it is timing , and yes , being buffed helps , usually coercer/conj/dirge/zerk can push your numbers WELL over any dps issue you might have.<BR><BR>the point being argued is<BR>do we usually get buffed this way. - usually not.<BR>do we bring utility - no.<BR>can we parse well without having to be superbuffed - yes.<BR>can we stay in boundary of other class's(major dps class's) when properly buffed - yes.<BR>would we be asked to sit out for another class - yes.<BR>can we tank trash - yes.<BR>can we tank boss's - some.<BR>are we a viable MT - no.<BR>do we have fun while playing - hell yes.<BR><BR>if you have issues with the class , try to find a way to work with it , and make it work.<BR>if you get frustrated , then reroll and try something else or take some time off.<BR><BR>i personally enjoy playing a bruiser , and these things i said are purely a personal view , and account of things i have seen while playing the class , and i wont force anything on you to make you believe a bruiser is what you want or not want to play , or believe they can or cannot bring anything to a raid.<BR> <P>Message Edited by allegacy on <SPAN class=date_text>12-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:19 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well said.</P> <P> </P> <P>A complete objective view of where Bruisers are today. We can do decent DPS. We can tank Epics that are crap. We are completely replaceable.</P> <P> </P> <P>Though, as always the person behind a class > the class itself..</P> <P> </P> <P>So, if you can play your Bruiser exceptionally, you can still find a spot in a great guild. </P> <P> </P> <P>Bottom line becomes, if a great player of another class (tank or DPS) in there.. your spot is gone.. and that is sad.</P>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>Etherin wrote:Couple responses:1) Allegacy, invoking the idea that if people arent satisfied with their raiding bruiser, that they must be playing incorrectly or subpar is as naive as it always has been.2) Ezahia, any chance I can inspire you to expand on why you prefer the bruiser as the MA? Not trying to be confrontational, just really want to know. My view is that the optimal raiding strategy is usually to have an MA that can also pick up the MT duty if needed. Bruisers again lack the ability to 'clean up' a disjunct group encounter.I'd almost be inclined to assume that people finding their bruisers extremely satisfying to raid with, simply havent raided with many other classes to know what really helps out the team.<hr></blockquote>I don't get it. Why would you want your MA be your ST at the same time? I really don't. If the MT goes down and the MA should be on a different target (a trash in a named encounter) that MA will be forced to switch to the named and keep him targeted, even though the adds can push out plenty of DPS. Just an example. I'd rather have a reliable ST and MA then both of them together in 1. I rather have a MA that changes targets quickly after the last mob dies (or better yet, has a new target JUST before the last mob dies) and usually very good tanking <i>brawlers </i>(both monks and bruiser if you didn't yet know what a brawler is) have the expirience in switching targets quickly. Like I do on my bruiser. I was MA most of the time in my old guild and I did a heck of a good job.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> allegacy wrote:<BR> say soe did give us the option<BR><BR>i wouldnt have to reroll , as i dont have to reroll right now<BR><BR>example/comparison/reference<BR><BR>Good<BR><BR>any good swash or brig can break 2.5k dps single target yes ? if you havent seen one do it , then ya need a new rogue.<BR><BR>any good bruiser should be able to break 1.5 easily.<BR><BR>match those numbers-<BR><BR>we are doing 1.0k less then the decent played swash!<BR><BR>Well Played/uber<BR><BR>any well played swash should be able to break atleast 3.5k , and thats maybe extending it.<BR><BR>any well played bruiser can top 2.2k , thats pushing the limit , give or take a possible flux of 2.0k through 2.5k.<BR><BR>we are 1k and under now of a difference.<BR><BR>Summary<BR><BR>these other class's will out-do you as a utility class , they may even out-buff you , and even out-dps you.<BR>their is no need to reroll if you wanna do dps as a bruiser , you just gotta know when and what combo to use when the mob is debuffed , alot of it is timing , and yes , being buffed helps , usually coercer/conj/dirge/zerk can push your numbers WELL over any dps issue you might have.<BR><BR>the point being argued is<BR>do we usually get buffed this way. - usually not.<BR>do we bring utility - no.<BR>can we parse well without having to be superbuffed - yes.<BR>can we stay in boundary of other class's(major dps class's) when properly buffed - yes.<BR>would we be asked to sit out for another class - yes.<BR>can we tank trash - yes.<BR>can we tank boss's - some.<BR>are we a viable MT - no.<BR>do we have fun while playing - hell yes.<BR><BR>if you have issues with the class , try to find a way to work with it , and make it work.<BR>if you get frustrated , then reroll and try something else or take some time off.<BR><BR>i personally enjoy playing a bruiser , and these things i said are purely a personal view , and account of things i have seen while playing the class , and i wont force anything on you to make you believe a bruiser is what you want or not want to play , or believe they can or cannot bring anything to a raid.<BR> <P>Message Edited by allegacy on <SPAN class=date_text>12-21-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:19 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well said.</P> <P> </P> <P>A complete objective view of where Bruisers are today. We can do decent DPS. We can tank Epics that are crap. We are completely replaceable.</P> <P> </P> <P>Though, as always the person behind a class > the class itself..</P> <P> </P> <P>So, if you can play your Bruiser exceptionally, you can still find a spot in a great guild.</P> <P> </P> <P>Bottom line becomes, if a great player of another class (tank or DPS) in there.. your spot is gone.. and that is sad.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THIS ENTIRE SENTIMENT.</P> <P>But saying that most guilds even those that min max 100% have at least 1 guard, bruiser, zerker. We are not useless.</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> allegacy wrote:<BR> k this is just a suggestion/awnser/reference to what you posted<BR><BR>You said.<BR><BR>We offer nothing special at all.<BR><BR>I say.<BR><BR>While this may hold true , we have nothing like dispatch , secure , vines , nothing that demits the mobs resist/mit.(reference)<BR>We do have Eye Gash , may not be the best thing offered , but still can be used. +1<BR>Rabid Cry , M1 - 25 bonus to non combat CA attack rate. Dunno about you but 25 is a fairly hefty number. Fairly close to zerk proc. +1<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Now through the bruiser AA , we have Drag and Stoneskin proc 20% chance on a successful riposte. +1</FONT><BR>I highly doubt you have been to inner sanctum MM and if so , i doubt you have made it to Tacticians Armor.<BR>Anyone who knows about this , this is where Drag comes into play bigtime. +1<BR>If you havent scored enough AA for Drag , then atleast give it a shot , its fairly decent.<BR><BR>You said.<BR><BR>We are not top DPS.<BR><BR>I say.<BR><BR>I agree with you here , you asked a question and pretty much awnsered it yourself.<BR>While we may not be listed for Uber DPS , that does not mean you cannot achieve big numbers on raids.<BR>This includes buffed or not buffed , Dirge or no Dirge , Coercer or no Coercer , Illu or no Illu , Conjy or no Conjy. Zerk or no Zerk.<BR>While it might take a bit of work , you can get your numbers up.<BR>You should not be getting outparsed by a SK , kudos to the SK for getting those kind of numbers. But you should not fall below his average.<BR><BR>You said.<BR><BR>We can't tank on raids.<BR><BR>I say.<BR><BR>Any average excarnate/renegade equipped bruiser should not have a issue MA'n on raids.<BR>This includes add control(working with your chanters/bards/necro-any class that has control over a single target)<BR>Many high end raids , I work with a zerker to help with add control , especially in Inner sanctum MM.<BR>Thankfully our healers = teh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e and a decent guard , i dont have to fool with tanking boss's , but have had to tank Vyemm before.<BR>Classic trio tank split - if you know anything about dealing with Tari - guard/zerk/bruiser combo ftw.<BR><BR>Summary<BR><BR>Im pretty sure their are alot of corners i left out , mainly because i didnt feel like doing a detail at 4am.<BR>But from what you have asked , and said , i can fairly sum up a few things.<BR><BR>1. obviously you are behind on high end raiding<BR>2. your trying to force your view on others without having played the high end completely.<BR>3. while i agree we may lack in the utility department , we offer other services , some which i explained.<BR><BR>Suggestions<BR><BR>1. try to be more knowledgeable of the class<BR>2. do something more then a labs raid ?<BR>3. your character on eq2players is access denied , cant see your gear , cant comment. wanna see mine ? Sarikan on eq2players , nothing to hide.<BR><BR>Edit: add to suggestions , hook up with rallos zek deity , finish it up , use those blessings and miracles , cloak is fairly decent.<BR>if you havent already done so.<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by allegacy on <SPAN class=date_text>12-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:22 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>One question why did you mention retribution of stone as a raid tool? it does not proc unless you riposte (and rarely). Which doesnt proc unless you are tanking (generally) which a bruiser rarely does on raids, Its not only unreliable and unpredictable, but is alot of vested points in an abitlity w extremly limited use. Get a complete legendary set for raids which gives you a stone skin proc on MELEE. While the mitigation is lower it has decent resists AND  boost to both double atk and a melee proc AND stone skin proc. Plus as it has 6 peices (helm unknown location possibly unrest) but only reauires 5 to complete the set you can choose which pieces to replace. </P> <P>I guess the question is what merit do you see in getting retribution of stone, because when i tested it the proc rate was dismal. I would much rather it was turned into a % of deflections which is our best avodiance check.</P>

[Ether]

Eyes,Did you just bring god into the equation? If only you could see where my middle finger is pointed and where your god can shove it (Im certain being the doting brat you are you wouldnt be too far behind).Alegacy,Thanks for the admission that we are the most replaceable raid class. My sentiments exactly <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Assuming a person has only raided labs that you dont know, is by definition naive.Gungo,Usually good posts and glad you are resilient. Keep on truckin <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Ezahia,Thanks for the advice. I wasnt trying to agitate you at all. You insulted me nonetheless, guess Ill be less inclined to attempt open discussions with you in the forums or in game in the future.<p>Message Edited by Etherin on <span class=date_text>12-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<P><BR>Ajeco both your brusier and dirge retired  ??</P> <P> </P>

[allegacy]

Etherin - their was a ? at the end of the labs statement , its speaking of have you done more then labs ?it was based as a question , maybe i wasnt clear enough - so kill the naive crap.Gungo - i mentioned the stoneskin as a + to the classmaybe its not the most valueable endline AA to havebut its Pathing grants some ok things , reuse timers on a few things i personally like to useever riposte alot of heroic content ? i do quite a bit myself , so it was sorta valueable to have , since myself have to be a bruiser inbetween dps and manageable tanking on recoverys in either heroic and epic content , or just tanking fast instance runs.soak hit ? pls i can already cram 12khp easy into my bar , and deagro ? no thank you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />see these are my personal statements , not everyone is the samei never said we are NUMERO UNO to have in a raid , as a matter of fact i said more then once , yes we can be replacedbut im speaking of my own admission into the class , that not only can i play this class well , but i dont have to have buff bots surrounding me to do soi can also hold my own if i have to pick up agro , and live through trash , usually having 1 warden alone support mealthough i have to admit i like the wiz agro transfer now through heroic content , provides more power heal through AA adjustments on someany of you other bruisers get this during heroic runs n crap ?pretty nice now.also on a weapons POVi rarely wield fist weaps , if so they are backup - because #1 in my past guild , we never got a good calamitie , or destruction fisti currently wield hardshell baton from crab x2 in primary , and scepter from tarinax in secondary for my dps setupand if i have to go into backup , i wield staff of the flapping wingand if i have to be setup for a encounter where i have to tank 1 trash mob or more - then i wield hardshell baton in primary and marr's fist in secondary.just throwing that our their to let you know what i wield and when i find it appropiate to wield personally. again we are all different and not everyone is the same  , these are my personal thoughts and actions.<div></div>

[gelinx]

I don't understand why this thread was even started in the first place. I see no benefit whatsoever to stack classes on a raid. There are 24 total classes in the game, as well as 24 spots for a raid. Each class offers their own buffs and debuffs that do not stack with another person of the same class. If you cannot take down a raid mob with a balanced out raid, then it is not because of the fact that you only have one assasin instead of two, or two templars for seven healers. Its all about skill from that point on, as well as gear. The only time I have been benched on a raid was when the other Bruiser was on and we switch regularly. My point is that it makes no sense why we shouldn't have a spot for raiding. Yes we don't add anything big like hate gain or some other [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that you keep trying to stress, but we do add something. Anyways, there is something wrong with you as a player or your guild if they do not have Bruisers on their raids. Simple as that. <div></div>

[Zelkova]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>gelinx wrote:I don't understand why this thread was even started in the first place. <b>I see no benefit whatsoever to stack classes on a raid.</b> There are 24 total classes in the game, as well as 24 spots for a raid. Each class offers their own buffs and debuffs that do not stack with another person of the same class. If you cannot take down a raid mob with a balanced out raid, then it is not because of the fact that you only have one assasin instead of two, or two templars for seven healers. Its all about skill from that point on, as well as gear. The only time I have been benched on a raid was when the other Bruiser was on and we switch regularly. My point is that it makes no sense why we shouldn't have a spot for raiding. Yes we don't add anything big like hate gain or some other [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that you keep trying to stress, but we do add something. <b>Anyways, there is something wrong with you as a player or your guild if they do not have Bruisers on their raids. Simple as that.</b> <div></div><hr></blockquote>LOL are you serious? We add "something". You do know that (most, nearly all) buffs aren't raid wide right? It's only wasteful to stack two of the same class in one group.And you know many classes have arguably useless debuffs in a raid (including, but not limited to: brawlers)? Our buffs aren't enough to be worth a mention most of the time either, considering each brawler class has 1 meaningful group buff that's very weak in comparison to basically anything else, they're nothing raid worthy by any means.So taking that in mind... tell me, what does a raid guild need a brawler for aside from three princes? (And let's not stretch the meaning of "need", here, beyond what you know I'm talking about.)I hope you have something better than "to loot the monk gear". Though from the looks of it you don't have much to enlighten us with.I'm really sick of people pulling out the "I never get benched on raids so there's no problem" bit to answer the topic, honestly. This is what that equates to: "<b>having a brawler on a raid doesn't stop you from killing stuff so everything is peachy</b>". It's BS. If you don't have a real answer then you're not contributing anything.<b>edit:</b> made this a bit more.. friendly</div><p>Message Edited by brekehan on <span class=date_text>12-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:01 PM</span>

[gelinx]

<DIV>Too bad I stopped caring now about this useless thread.  While you waste your time sitting around thinking why people won't invite you to a raid because of what you can or can't bring to the table, I'll be using my useless class to raid. Of course I know that our  buffs don't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing affect raid wide, thats not the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems that you are not gonna change your opinion, or at least keep an open mind about it. So I guess there is only one thing to do....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/violin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go make a healer, scout, enchanter or Guardian then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There I solved the problem of this thread! Now let it die!</DIV><p>Message Edited by gelinx on <span class=date_text>12-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> gelinx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Too bad I stopped caring now about this useless thread.  While you waste your time sitting around thinking why people won't invite you to a raid because of what you can or can't bring to the table, I'll be using my useless class to raid. Of course I know that our  buffs don't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing affect raid wide, thats not the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems that you are not gonna change your opinion, or at least keep an open mind about it. So I guess there is only one thing to do....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/violin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go make a healer, scout, enchanter or Guardian then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There I solved the problem of this thread! Now let it die!</DIV> <P>Message Edited by gelinx on <SPAN class=date_text>12-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What you fail to understand is there is abig difference in need. While raiding guilds do not need brawlers to win any fight. they do need other classes. What guilds who try to build raids to beat hard encounters, they tend to stack the most benficial classes. It is flat out false to suggest that 24 classes is the optimal raid force for all given situations. The truth is sometimes raids are eaiser with 7 healers or an extra heavy dps'er. And in those situations the first classes to be dropped are generally brawlers and to certain extent crusaders.</P> <P>The sad part is you even supported our own claim. I garantee you that in your raids they stack certain classes. I bet you have raided with 2 wardens or furies or templars before. Yet when another bruiser logs on one of you has to sit out. Ask yourself why does your guild ask a brawler to sit out in the first place. If we are so needed. This has gone so far as guilds who do not even recruit brawlers because of this mentality. </P> <P>Let me put this in simple terms for you. Brawlers do benefit a raid. Brawlers are not the most ideal in any category for raids. hence brawlers are not necessary to raid. Hence why brawlers are not needed. its really that simple. Do not fool yourself into thinking your guild will not be able to continue without you. Do not fool yoursel finto thinking w/o you in raid your raid zone wide dps will drop (in fact depending on the class replacing you it may go up). Do not think your MT will suddenly fail to be an effective tank. You can quit this game tomorrow and your guild will go on as nothing has happened. But you remove your guild gaurd, templar, defiler, dirge, brigand, swash etc etc and a mad rush to recruit another will take place. You and your class are easily replacable. The end</P>

[Ether]

Gelinx,The alternative is that we perhaps pursue where we would like changes rather than be complacent. I already play my other alts on raids. Most are equally fun, but would love to justify taking the bruiser out for a spin again.As for this thread dying, Im sure it will on its own since:1) most people dont post on this board anyway2) bruisers are among the least played class on any server (www.eq2census.com).

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> allegacy wrote:<BR>Etherin - their was a ? at the end of the labs statement , its speaking of have you done more then labs ?<BR><BR>it was based as a question , maybe i wasnt clear enough - so kill the naive crap.<BR><BR>Gungo - i mentioned the stoneskin as a + to the class<BR>maybe its not the most valueable endline AA to have<BR>but its Pathing grants some ok things , reuse timers on a few things i personally like to use<BR>ever riposte alot of heroic content ? i do quite a bit myself , so it was sorta valueable to have , since myself have to be a bruiser inbetween dps and manageable tanking on recoverys in either heroic and epic content , or just tanking fast instance runs.<BR>soak hit ? pls i can already cram 12khp easy into my bar , and deagro ? no thank you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>see these are my personal statements , not everyone is the same<BR>i never said we are NUMERO UNO to have in a raid , as a matter of fact i said more then once , yes we can be replaced<BR><BR>but <BR><BR>im speaking of my own admission into the class , that not only can i play this class well , but i dont have to have buff bots surrounding me to do so<BR>i can also hold my own if i have to pick up agro , and live through trash , usually having 1 warden alone support me<BR><BR>although i have to admit i like the wiz agro transfer now through heroic content , provides more power heal through AA adjustments on some<BR>any of you other bruisers get this during heroic runs n crap ?<BR>pretty nice now.<BR><BR>also on a weapons POV<BR><BR>i rarely wield fist weaps , if so they are backup - because #1 in my past guild , we never got a good calamitie , or destruction fist<BR>i currently wield hardshell baton from crab x2 in primary , and scepter from tarinax in secondary for my dps setup<BR>and if i have to go into backup , i wield staff of the flapping wing<BR>and if i have to be setup for a encounter where i have to tank 1 trash mob or more - then i wield hardshell baton in primary and marr's fist in secondary.<BR><BR>just throwing that our their to let you know what i wield and when i find it appropiate to wield personally. again we are all different and not everyone is the same  , these are my personal thoughts and actions.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not attacking your AA decision i just personally tried out this end aa ability and i was throughly unimpressed. You mentioned it under a raid benefit. the ability as it works provides the least benefit when it is most needed. You end up avoiding less the harder the mob becomes. Its counter productive. If you look at the legendary set its stone skin proc w a 20 sec duration is based on your attacks. Its an offensive proc. It provides a raid and group benefit. It is especially helpful on named with physical based Aoe's. The other issue i had with this line is Closed mind requires both Stone Deaf "OR" Hardened skin at rank 3. This is the only ability that requires both. I was hoping it was just a typo and should of said "OR".</P> <P>to be specific my AA's are 5 heal, 5 mitigation, 5 stone deaf, 5 group taunt, 3 single taunt, 5 callous stomp, 5 steel fist, 1 mezz, 5 kidney punch, 5 uppercut, 5 knockout, 1 drag</P>

[gelinx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> gelinx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Too bad I stopped caring now about this useless thread.  While you waste your time sitting around thinking why people won't invite you to a raid because of what you can or can't bring to the table, I'll be using my useless class to raid. Of course I know that our  buffs don't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing affect raid wide, thats not the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems that you are not gonna change your opinion, or at least keep an open mind about it. So I guess there is only one thing to do....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/violin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go make a healer, scout, enchanter or Guardian then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There I solved the problem of this thread! Now let it die!</DIV> <P>Message Edited by gelinx on <SPAN class=date_text>12-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What you fail to understand is there is abig difference in need. While raiding guilds do not need brawlers to win any fight. they do need other classes. What guilds who try to build raids to beat hard encounters, they tend to stack the most benficial classes. It is flat out false to suggest that 24 classes is the optimal raid force for all given situations. The truth is sometimes raids are eaiser with 7 healers or an extra heavy dps'er. And in those situations the first classes to be dropped are generally brawlers and to certain extent crusaders.</P> <P>The sad part is you even supported our own claim. I garantee you that in your raids they stack certain classes. I bet you have raided with 2 wardens or furies or templars before. Yet when another bruiser logs on one of you has to sit out. Ask yourself why does your guild ask a brawler to sit out in the first place. If we are so needed. This has gone so far as guilds who do not even recruit brawlers because of this mentality. </P> <P>Let me put this in simple terms for you. Brawlers do benefit a raid. Brawlers are not the most ideal in any category for raids. hence brawlers are not necessary to raid. Hence why brawlers are not needed. its really that simple. Do not fool yourself into thinking your guild will not be able to continue without you. Do not fool yoursel finto thinking w/o you in raid your raid zone wide dps will drop (in fact depending on the class replacing you it may go up). Do not think your MT will suddenly fail to be an effective tank. You can quit this game tomorrow and your guild will go on as nothing has happened. But you remove your guild gaurd, templar, defiler, dirge, brigand, swash etc etc and a mad rush to recruit another will take place. You and your class are easily replacable. The end</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I am glad you still think that. I am not denying that we can be replaced, but why the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would we? Are you just not showing your potential as a raiding bruiser to think that?  Put it into [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing simple terms for me? I already know what the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] everyone seems to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about. So be it. Also, I think it would be a problem if you need seven healers for the content.  You just waste space with your posts on this. I am sick of all this negative [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that has been going on our class boards.  Nothing good can be said nowadays. If you don't enjoy playing your bruiser, and do not feel like you can contribute anything, please do someone a favor and delete your character. Like Gungo said, you are easily replaceable, and everyone will go on as if nothing happened. Another sad thread on our class forums. <BR>

[Gungo]

<P>You call it a sad thread but it is not. We are not broken. But you said this thread is pointless. It is not. Everyone wants to feel needed and wanted. Everyone wants to feel thier class has a direct and tangible benefit to thier guilds success. It is part of the reason why there are so many guards and so few brawlers when you look at eq2census. Brawlers do great soloing, they work really well in groups, but lack in a specific area that could be addressed... This in many peoples opinion is raid role/utlity. This thread is far from pointless. No one in this thread said brawler suck or brawlers are broken. All brawlers want is our form of dispatch. Our malignacy (prenerf). Something thats says we need a brawler. Soe tends to shy away from this mentality and lieks to cookie cutter mold classes which is good to a degree until they remove what seperates classes. </P> <P>There is many thing soe could do to give brawlers thier role in raids. turn our lvl 50 highly resistable fear spell into a fear immunity line. Make an in group version of altruism for brawlers. Make pulling and splitting raid mobs more involved and a plethora of suggestion.</P> <P> </P>

[Valarye]

<P>I would agree that brawlers are not needed in a raiding atmosphere.  I myself am in a raiding guild and I feel sometimes that I am allowed on some raids to keep the raid leaders consious clear.  I do love being a part of raids, but I understand the need to balance for specific zones since SOE doesn't allow more than 24 members (which is a crying crappy shame).</P> <P>But what it comes down to is do you like playing your brawler?  If so, then there really isn't much left to discuss.  Just conceed that you aren't a master of any one or two trades and strive to make the best out of the class for yourself.  I don't mind being "filler" because I love playing my class.</P> <P>Valarye ~ 70 Bruiser </P>

[Lufalynx]

This thread is re-tar-ded. *IF* maybe you're right and it is a class problem, let me give you a bit of advice:  "DUDE, YOU PLAY THE CLERIC!"  Why'd you pick a bruiser anyway?  Don't you remember the "Holy Trinity" in EQ1?  (that is Warrior, Cleric, Wizard for your newbies)  Play a raid'centric class for raiding.Seriously though, I don't think the class is the problem.  Don't most raid leaders look for people who aren't going to get lost, misassist,  break mezzes, train, accidentally evac the raid,  or stir up drama in raid chat with "Raid advice"?  Wouldn't they take a bruiser that was reliable, on time, cool to hang with and helpful over the assassin who was always needing COH and directions to the zone and telling the raid leader what a '[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] he is?Now, I know what you're thinking...  "But, I love being a bruiser!"  or "I don't want to level up a cleric!"  Well then.  My advice is that you stop being the tag-a-long [Removed for Content] and start leading the raids.  *THEN* no one is gonna say "Lets ditch the bruiser 'cause they suck."   Grow a pair, step up to the table and make things happen.  If you whine a lot then people realize you're a whiner and won't respect you.  If you take charge...  Competently...  Then they think you're the man and it'll be "No way.  Lets wait till our bruiser gets here to lead the raid!".LufaPS, or you can whine some more and flame me.  Whatever makes you feel empowered.  : )<div></div>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>Lufalynx wrote:This thread is re-tar-ded. *IF* maybe you're right and it is a class problem, let me give you a bit of advice:  "DUDE, YOU PLAY THE CLERIC!"  Why'd you pick a bruiser anyway?  Don't you remember the "Holy Trinity" in EQ1?  (that is Warrior, Cleric, Wizard for your newbies)  Play a raid'centric class for raiding.Seriously though, I don't think the class is the problem.  Don't most raid leaders look for people who aren't going to get lost, misassist,  break mezzes, train, accidentally evac the raid,  or stir up drama in raid chat with "Raid advice"?  Wouldn't they take a bruiser that was reliable, on time, cool to hang with and helpful over the assassin who was always needing COH and directions to the zone and telling the raid leader what a '[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] he is?Now, I know what you're thinking...  "But, I love being a bruiser!"  or "I don't want to level up a cleric!"  Well then.  My advice is that you stop being the tag-a-long [Removed for Content] and start leading the raids.  *THEN* no one is gonna say "Lets ditch the bruiser 'cause they suck."   Grow a pair, step up to the table and make things happen.  If you whine a lot then people realize you're a whiner and won't respect you.  If you take charge...  Competently...  Then they think you're the man and it'll be "No way.  Lets wait till our bruiser gets here to lead the raid!".LufaPS, or you can whine some more and flame me.  Whatever makes you feel empowered.  : )<div></div><hr></blockquote>Give that bruiser a scout/mage/healer and you've got yourself a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more needed raiding class.<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Lufalynx wrote:<BR>This thread is re-tar-ded.<BR><BR>*IF* maybe you're right and it is a class problem, let me give you a bit of advice:  "DUDE, YOU PLAY THE CLERIC!"  Why'd you pick a bruiser anyway?  Don't you remember the "Holy Trinity" in EQ1?  (that is Warrior, Cleric, Wizard for your newbies)  Play a raid'centric class for raiding.<BR><BR>Seriously though, I don't think the class is the problem.  Don't most raid leaders look for people who aren't going to get lost, misassist,  break mezzes, train, accidentally evac the raid,  or stir up drama in raid chat with "Raid advice"?  Wouldn't they take a bruiser that was reliable, on time, cool to hang with and helpful over the assassin who was always needing COH and directions to the zone and telling the raid leader what a '[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] he is?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/And 1k dps less than everyone else with 0 utility ? umm yea<BR></FONT><BR>Now, I know what you're thinking...  "But, I love being a bruiser!"  or "I don't want to level up a cleric!"  Well then.  My advice is that you stop being the tag-a-long [Removed for Content] and start leading the raids.  *THEN* no one is gonna say "Lets ditch the bruiser 'cause they suck."  <BR><BR>Grow a pair, step up to the table and make things happen.  If you whine a lot then people realize you're a whiner and won't respect you.  If you take charge...  Competently...  Then they think you're the man and it'll be "No way.  Lets wait till our bruiser gets here to lead the raid!".</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Um so you walk into a HC raid guild with a brusier (they are likely NOT to want a brawler anyways) and demand that you be RL ? hmm thats likely to get you shown the door as quicky as your pompus head walked through it. Umm ajeco this guy seems suited for virtue or fable methinks</FONT><BR>Lufa<BR><BR>PS, or you can whine some more and flame me.  Whatever makes you feel empowered.  : )<BR><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>/Flaming you is more fun as picking on those who lack basic knowledge always makes you feel empowered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but hey i would love for you to walk into a guild and demand to be RL hehe in fact id pay for it..... now all i need is jookie to come and post but im a brusier and leet on a raid cos i eat pie .. over to you jooks .. :smileywink:<BR></FONT><BR></P> <HR> <BR>btw who are you again ?</BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lufalynx]

   Nah, Dark.  I'm not going to get labeled as a pompous would-be upstart raidleader because I'm not applying for the job of raid leader.  Oh, but then again, I'm not whining about being useless either.          <font color="#cc0033">I'm just TRYING TO HELP you get that phat loot you're after with these couple posts.</font>   Ok.  I accept that you probably don't have the weasel skills to become a raid leader in a big boy guild without making a lot of people wig and leave.  Here's plan B for you.  Quit your day time job (if you have one) and do what at least one of those big boys in the HC guild did, namely start your own raiding guild!  Power to the people and all that.  Best of all, since you're the leader, you get first pick of all the loot if you can keep your lackeys in line.  I'm telling you, you can REALLY BE SOMEONE on your server.  Someone big and important.  Someone toons look up to (virtually).  Plan C:  Start a healer class.  Boring, but useful on raids.  You'll get lots of great drops as you tag along with the pickup raids.  Or, heck, maybe the big boys will let you into their guild.  Thats the fast path to some really fine equipment that'll make you heal even better 4TW.  Plus, they'll never send you home.  That'll be for the bru... Er.  For the extra guardian or berserker that they don't need.  Plan D.  Just keep whining about it.  The devs are bound to pay more attention to this particular class "waaah waaaah" thread than the crybaby posts in the other class threads.  Plus, this option gives you a lot more fun time posting on boards rather than playing, requires little effort beyond said posting, and carries no responsibility to find a social solution.  Please, for our sake, try anything but Plan D because its just much too prepubescent (www.dictionary.com).     <div></div>

[Lufalynx]

Ok.  I lied.  I'm not really trying to help.  I'm just flame baiting.  <span>:smileyhappy:</span>All this ZomGing really just sort of makes me giggle and wonder if you whiners do anything else for fun.  Heh.  You all rock the playground.  Really.<div></div>

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lufalynx wrote: I'm just flame baiting.  <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>No, really? Who woulda thought you weren't totally serious with your "it doesn't matter what class you are as long as you're an Awesome Guy™" reply? I guess you just didn't realize that every other person in this thread has said that same thing?Moving right along...</div>

[Thail]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Etherin wrote:DisturbedMaggot (suitable name at this point),No intelligent raid guild assigns the bruiser to the MA position. The situtation you describe is what might happen if both the MT and MA go down. <i>Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.</i>It has nothing to do with skill playing a bruiser, its the tools that SOE has given us. They are simply lacking. Im here posting as I would like to see some changes to allow me to feel comfortable about bringing my bruiser back to raids. I've got 4 other raiding alts and all of them offer far more.Nice try though...<hr></blockquote><i>Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.</i>So untrue, If the healers brain fart and the MT dies.  I cant count how many time I have held off the mobs until the MT was back up,  As long as I am yelling at them to keep the squishy Lizard healed.Tools you have: Mastered TauntsRescue always rdyDragRumble being up during the fight</div><p>Message Edited by Thail on <span class=date_text>12-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 PM</span>

[Krokous]

<blockquote><hr>Thail wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Etherin wrote:DisturbedMaggot (suitable name at this point),No intelligent raid guild assigns the bruiser to the MA position. The situtation you describe is what might happen if both the MT and MA go down. <i>Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.</i>It has nothing to do with skill playing a bruiser, its the tools that SOE has given us. They are simply lacking. Im here posting as I would like to see some changes to allow me to feel comfortable about bringing my bruiser back to raids. I've got 4 other raiding alts and all of them offer far more.Nice try though...<hr></blockquote><i>Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.</i>So untrue, If the healers brain fart and the MT dies.  I cant count how many time I have held off the mobs until the MT was back up,  As long as I am yelling at them to keep the squishy Lizard healed.Tools you have: Mastered TauntsRescue always rdyDragRumble being up during the fight</div><p>Message Edited by Thail on <span class=date_text>12-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 PM</span><hr></blockquote>was that on t6 raid?? looks like. brawler survives like 1 hit, next one youre dead (if you arent in tank group)

[Zelkova]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Krokous wrote:<blockquote><hr>Thail wrote:<div></div><div><i>Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.</i>So untrue, If the healers brain fart and the MT dies.  I cant count how many time I have held off the mobs until the MT was back up,  As long as I am yelling at them to keep the squishy Lizard healed.Tools you have: Mastered TauntsRescue always rdyDragRumble being up during the fight</div><p>Message Edited by Thail on <span class="date_text">12-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>was that on t6 raid?? looks like. brawler survives like 1 hit, next one youre dead (if you arent in tank group)<hr></blockquote>Too early for this...He has a point with the Rescue at least. But drag is only for 5 seconds and generates zero hate so, while slightly helpful, it's not really suitable for that situation. And sorry Thail but if you try to convince me you're pulling off of the DPSers with your regular taunts, I'll tell you that you're full of crap. Unless they're as brain-dead as your healers (losing the MT on a mob an unbuffed brawler can tank FTW). Or you were taunting all through the fight which is borderline brain-dead also.Anyway, I'll go see if I can find the "I tanked the mob until the MT was up, and lived to tell about it!" T-Shirt for you, I think one of our Wizards has it...P.S. And I MA all the time. MA is not the ST (secondary tank). We do make good MAs because we have high surviveability (but anyone can do it, I've done it with my Fury - yes it was stupid but nevermind that). I know someone said it already but, whatever...</div><p>Message Edited by brekehan on <span class=date_text>12-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 AM</span>

[Thail]

<blockquote><hr>brekehan wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Krokous wrote:<blockquote><hr>Thail wrote:<div></div><div><i>Bruisers will not usually have the tools to recover a wipe.</i>So untrue, If the healers brain fart and the MT dies.  I cant count how many time I have held off the mobs until the MT was back up,  As long as I am yelling at them to keep the squishy Lizard healed.Tools you have: Mastered TauntsRescue always rdyDragRumble being up during the fight</div><p>Message Edited by Thail on <span class="date_text">12-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>was that on t6 raid?? looks like. brawler survives like 1 hit, next one youre dead (if you arent in tank group)<hr></blockquote>Too early for this...He has a point with the Rescue at least. But drag is only for 5 seconds and generates zero hate so, while slightly helpful, it's not really suitable for that situation. And sorry Thail but if you try to convince me you're pulling off of the DPSers with your regular taunts, I'll tell you that you're full of crap. Unless they're as brain-dead as your healers (losing the MT on a mob an unbuffed brawler can tank FTW). Or you were taunting all through the fight which is borderline brain-dead also.Anyway, I'll go see if I can find the "I tanked the mob until the MT was up, and lived to tell about it!" T-Shirt for you, I think one of our Wizards has it...P.S. And I MA all the time. MA is not the ST (secondary tank). We do make good MAs because we have high surviveability (but anyone can do it, I've done it with my Fury - yes it was stupid but nevermind that). I know someone said it already but, whatever...</div><p>Message Edited by brekehan on <span class="date_text">12-31-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:28 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Man you guys really suck at playing your Bruiser and your really great at the whiney [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing. I guess I will stop posting in this forum for a while. Until you sandy vg's fade away like the other wuss's before you.Well, I could stay here all day and explain to you how to play a Bruiser. But I have better things to do.Later,<div></div>

[Zelkova]

Damnit Thail, now who is going to teach me how to play my bruiser? <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[Thail]

<div></div>I already said no. You are now just going to have to learn on your owne.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Thail on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:58 PM</span>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV>I'll give everyone a hint:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use autoattack. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>MakhailSammael wrote:<div>I'll give everyone a hint:</div> <div> </div> <div>Use autoattack. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Shhh! You'll get us nerfed. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[tt66]

<div></div>So... basically what I'm seeing here is that the only things bruisers have to offer a raid are :1) Eye-rake debuff2) DPS group buff3) FD pulling4) sub-scout dpsdoes that sound about right? Things like emergency tanking would appear to be best left to plate wearers.Being a "good player" doesn't really seem to be particularly relevant, as surely you will have the same percentage of "good" bruisers as "good" shadowknights, "good" swashbucklers, etc. etc. I can't see how that makes bruisers any more or less raidworthy.I'm genuinely interested (so perhaps, this is not the correct thread!) to know if there is a unique selling point to the bruiser class, something that will make a raidleader want to have one along.I've had almost zero raid experience, I have at best average gear, so I know that I'm not going to be <b>that</b> important to a raid just yet. But it would be nice to think that at some point I'll be raiding because I'm useful to have along, rather than because there is an empty space on the raid list.<div></div>

[Madmoon]

<P>Gah - same old, same old.... I have never had a problem getting into a raid, or contributing.  If your guild won't let you in on a raid because you're a brawler, get a new guild.  As to having to make the raid leader care that I am there, he cares.  He cares about everyone taking up a spot on a raid.   And he cares that you contribute.  And that you listen to instructions.  And that you don't spam the raid channel.  After that, no one cares.</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Madmoon wrote:<BR> <P>Gah - same old, same old.... I have never had a problem getting into a raid, or contributing.  If your guild won't let you in on a raid because you're a brawler, get a new guild.  As to having to make the raid leader care that I am there, he cares.  He cares about everyone taking up a spot on a raid.   And he cares that you contribute.  And that you listen to instructions.  And that you don't spam the raid channel.  After that, no one cares.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>i agree most guilds will have space for you and we can fill the dps/offtank role (in an emergeny with on the ball healers !) quite nicely.  Unless your in a HC Raid guild who wants to optimise the positions and even then a brawler is still a nice addition.  </P> <P>I hate all this dont bring anything to a raid rubbish as it never shows the overall picture , i raid and as a brigand and a bruiser and i choose which toon to raid  with ; and my guild have no issue with which i bring , its all down to player skill ( hell give me ajecos dirge to play and ill bang out 1.2k dps !!) and as mad mentioned experience and ability to LISTEN to commands and THAT is the most important thing you can bring to a raid .  Ive lost count on the number of times you have a blast in a pickup and the amount of STUPID people who wear fully fabled yet fail to grasp SIMPLE instructions ?? I guess the bruiser commmunity is made up of smarter people but then i read what ganjookie posts and think hmmm maybe not [Removed for Content] <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (love ya ganj)</P><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:31 PM</span>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Madmoon wrote: <div></div> <p>Gah - same old, same old.... I have never had a problem getting into a raid, or contributing.  If your guild won't let you in on a raid because you're a brawler, get a new guild.  As to having to make the raid leader care that I am there, he cares.  He cares about everyone taking up a spot on a raid.   And he cares that you contribute.  And that you listen to instructions.  And that you don't spam the raid channel.  After that, no one cares.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>i agree most guilds will have space for you and we can fill the dps/offtank role (in an emergeny with on the ball healers !) quite nicely.  Unless your in a HC Raid guild who wants to optimise the positions and even then a brawler is still a nice addition.  </p> <p>I hate all this dont bring anything to a raid rubbish as it never shows the overall picture , i raid and as a brigand and a bruiser and i choose which toon to raid  with ; and my guild have no issue with which i bring , its all down to player skill <b><i><font color="#ffcc00">( hell give me ajecos dirge to play and ill bang out 1.2k dps !!)</font></i></b> and as mad mentioned experience and ability to LISTEN to commands and THAT is the most important thing you can bring to a raid .  Ive lost count on the number of times you have a blast in a pickup and the amount of STUPID people who wear fully fabled yet fail to grasp SIMPLE instructions ?? I guess the bruiser commmunity is made up of smarter people but then i read what ganjookie posts and think hmmm maybe not [Removed for Content] <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (love ya ganj)</p><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class="date_text">01-02-2007</span> <span class="time_text">06:31 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You couldn't do that even in PPR! <div></div>

[Ether]

<P>Lufalynx,</P> <P> </P> <P>Couple things,</P> <P> </P> <P>The holy trinity of eq1 was healers, tanks, and enchanters. Nice try though, but -1 for credibility.</P> <P>Whining about whiners is indeed still whining, so -2 for credibility.</P> <P>Maybe you and thail can start a bruiser fanboy club, live on the street and flex your muscles. It wont make raids go any faster, nor will your presence in the raid itself.</P> <P> </P> <P>Still desperately waiting for someone to come here and tell us why we arent the least valued raiding class in game. Simply invoking the idea that a good bruiser over a bad swashbuckler is better to have along doesnt quite seem like a class argument, does it?</P>

[fleshspi]

I don't play a bruiser, nor will I ever claim I know a lot about them. However, the point of this thread is to discuss if bruisers have any roles in raiding guilds, or raids in general. I'll simply say, look at every single top 10 raiding guild worldwide...Guess what, they all have at least 1 bruiser. Do they keep them out of pity? Do they keep them just to beat the princes? Do they keep them for their senses of humor? These guilds demand somewhere around 60-80% raid attendance out of their members, so if they're not taking them on raid at least 6 out of 10 times, they boot them. Now tell me why these top end HC guilds have bruisers, and simply do not boot them for their uselessness. The fact is, bruisers are a part of every successful raiding guild, no matter how small the part they play is. The only classes that should really have this concern, due to the amount of them in HC guilds are: SK, pally, ranger(pre-eof perhaps), and monks. So, by looking at the facts, yes, bruisers are demanded on raid forces. These guilds would not keep full members of a class if they used them 1 out of 10 raids.

[tt66]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>fleshspike wrote:I don't play a bruiser, nor will I ever claim I know a lot about them. However, the point of this thread is to discuss if bruisers have any roles in raiding guilds, or raids in general. I'll simply say, look at every single top 10 raiding guild worldwide...Guess what, they all have at least 1 bruiser. Do they keep them out of pity? Do they keep them just to beat the princes? Do they keep them for their senses of humor? These guilds demand somewhere around 60-80% raid attendance out of their members, so if they're not taking them on raid at least 6 out of 10 times, they boot them. Now tell me why these top end HC guilds have bruisers, and simply do not boot them for their uselessness.<hr></blockquote>I'd love to tell you why they have bruisers, I really would. But I don't know. In fact, nobody on this forum seems to know.8/8 Mantis Star maybe? <span>:smileyhappy:</span></div>

[Ether]

<P>Fleshspike,</P> <P>No. They don't. Simply wrong.</P> <P> </P> <P>example: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/guilds/guild_profile.vm?guildId=1051303" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/guilds/guild_profile.vm?guildId=1051303</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Another example of the ridiculous logic that bruiser proponents like to spew out. Perhaps if you want to try and provide some real arguments about what a bruiser brings, rather than suggesting that if someone else is doing it, they must be good...</P> <P> </P> <P>This thread is about raids. The bruiser class is a ton of fun to play. Its one of the most easy solo classes around. FD is arguably the most fun ability in game. If thats what you enjoy great, we all enjoyed it too. Raiding? hmm.. not so much.</P>

[fleshspi]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Etherin wrote:<div></div> <p>Fleshspike,</p> <p>No. They don't. Simply wrong.</p> <p>example: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/guilds/guild_profile.vm?guildId=1051303" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/guilds/guild_profile.vm?guildId=1051303</a></p> <p>Another example of the ridiculous logic that bruiser proponents like to spew out. Perhaps if you want to try and provide some real arguments about what a bruiser brings, rather than suggesting that if someone else is doing it, they must be good...</p> <p>This thread is about raids. The bruiser class is a ton of fun to play. Its one of the most easy solo classes around. FD is arguably the most fun ability in game. If thats what you enjoy great, we all enjoyed it too. Raiding? hmm.. not so much.</p><hr></blockquote>If you really want some "real arguments about what a bruiser brings" go ask the leaders of SD, NPU, CL, Disso, FoH, etc. why they have one. If you really want to find out, that'll be your ticket. Unless you rather enjoy sitting on the eq2players forums shooting people's suggestions down. These people aren't hard to find. And FYI I'm pretty sure fable had a bruiser before a ton of their members left not too long ago. <div></div><p>Message Edited by fleshspike on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> fleshspike wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etherin wrote:<BR> <P>Fleshspike,</P> <P>No. They don't. Simply wrong.</P> <P> </P> <P>example: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/guilds/guild_profile.vm?guildId=1051303" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/guilds/guild_profile.vm?guildId=1051303</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Another example of the ridiculous logic that bruiser proponents like to spew out. Perhaps if you want to try and provide some real arguments about what a bruiser brings, rather than suggesting that if someone else is doing it, they must be good...</P> <P> </P> <P>This thread is about raids. The bruiser class is a ton of fun to play. Its one of the most easy solo classes around. FD is arguably the most fun ability in game. If thats what you enjoy great, we all enjoyed it too. Raiding? hmm.. not so much.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you really want some "real arguments about what a bruiser brings" go ask the leaders of SD, NPU, CL, Disso, FoH, etc. why they have one. If you really want to find out, that'll be your ticket. Unless you rather enjoy sitting on the eq2players forums shooting people's suggestions down. These people aren't hard to find. <BR><BR>And FYI I'm pretty sure fable had a bruiser before a ton of their members left not too long ago. <BR> <P>Message Edited by fleshspike on <SPAN class=date_text>01-04-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:17 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually every guild has at least 1 brawler and 1 crusader. Simply because SOE Forces 1 in raids at times. (cheldrak/princes etc). You said it yourself why do guilds even use crusaders? Yet every top guild has at least 1 crusader. Sometimes those crusaders end up playing alts instead of thier main unless the raid mandates it. Look at phov one of the top paladins world wide. he ends up playing his scout alot on raids. Just because a guild keeps a class on reserve doesn't mean they are a needed raid class. </P> <P>That being said since most guilds are forced to take a brawler. </P> <P>1) They do choose a bruiser, while not necessarily relagated to playing alts do to the fact we can get our dps close to a scout. </P> <P>2) We can also provide eye gash a very nice offensive skill reducer that stacks w illusinist and swashy skill reducer. </P> <P>3) Either brawler can use mantis star a huge stamina debuff and after the massacer of defilers debuffs is a huge loss of hp's on epics. </P> <P>4) Many guilds use altruism more as a fail safe now. </P> <P>5) And drag has its new found uses. </P> <P>6) I also tend to favor intercede alot. </P> <P>7) and we are still a good choice for a third tank w rescue that produces decent dps. </P> <P>When EoF was released i was highly peeved w our tanking. Although we are tanking alot better now since the release of EOF. The reason is not only the minimal upgrades to stance but mostly the 3 passes they did on epic accuracy bonuses. Do you honestly think if brawlers did not make a huge stink about how bad avodiance was they would of changed us anyway. no way. Changes were made to brawlers defensive stance specifically because of feedback/complaints by brawlers on EoF release. Changes were made to mob accuracy because of brawlers and many tanks complaints on epic zone difficulty.   </P> <P>Bottom line is most guilds will want/have 1 buiser. We do ok. We are not 1 trick ponies (although many seem to prefer that) . We don't really have a "role". but we do help out in raids. And a good bruiser can find uses for all our skills even "Hardened Skin" on raids. </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>To say it simply bruisers in my opinion are fine now. I am able to offtank epics again, do some dps etc. </SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 PM</span>

[TheSummoned]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>fleshspike wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Etherin wrote:<div></div> <p>Fleshspike,</p> <p>No. They don't. Simply wrong.</p> <p>example: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/guilds/guild_profile.vm?guildId=1051303" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/guilds/guild_profile.vm?guildId=1051303</a></p> <p>Another example of the ridiculous logic that bruiser proponents like to spew out. Perhaps if you want to try and provide some real arguments about what a bruiser brings, rather than suggesting that if someone else is doing it, they must be good...</p> <p>This thread is about raids. The bruiser class is a ton of fun to play. Its one of the most easy solo classes around. FD is arguably the most fun ability in game. If thats what you enjoy great, we all enjoyed it too. Raiding? hmm.. not so much.</p><hr></blockquote>If you really want some "real arguments about what a bruiser brings" go ask the leaders of SD, NPU, CL, Disso, FoH, etc. why they have one. If you really want to find out, that'll be your ticket. Unless you rather enjoy sitting on the eq2players forums shooting people's suggestions down. These people aren't hard to find. <b><i> And FYI I'm pretty sure fable had a bruiser before a ton of their members left not too long ago. </i></b><div></div><p>Message Edited by fleshspike on <span class="date_text">01-04-2007</span> <span class="time_text">11:17 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I followed Fable's advancement closely, since I was in a rival raiding guild. The only time Fable had a bruiser was at the beginning of T7/end of T6, but that bruiser commited suicide (R.I.P.) and they have been bruiserless ever since. P.S.: Oh, and they had Vopice beginning of T6, but he quit after 2 or so months into DoF.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TheSummoned on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 PM</span>

[Krokous]

<blockquote><hr>fleshspike wrote: Do they keep them out of pity? Do they keep themjust to beat the princes? Do they keep them for their senses of humor?<hr></blockquote>Yes, they keep them for princes, hurricanus, and recovering raid wipe in zones where trash repops. and they keep them maybe for being sure to have one for possibility that soe makes some new encounter doable with brawlers only. Enough?

[Ether]

<DIV>Flesh,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not shooting any suggestions down, rather, just waiting for someone to bring some up. Did you have any?</DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>I followed Fable's advancement closely, since I was in a rival raiding guild. The only time Fable had a bruiser was at the beginning of T7/end of T6, but that bruiser commited suicide (R.I.P.) and they have been bruiserless ever since.<BR><BR>P.S.: Oh, and they had Vopice beginning of T6, but he quit after 2 or so months into DoF.<BR></P> <P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So true however they do have pauzze so they do have a brawler and let me borrow your dirge pls <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>p.s what happened to daveke when he left fable ?<BR></P><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class=date_text>01-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:11 AM</span>

[Gladesman]

<DIV>Bruisers are not among the most desired classes for raids.. but that doesn't mean we don't contribute anything at all. It's just one of these classes that yeah, 1 is enough to take along and yes you will be left outside when 24+ people show up and there are other classes to choose from that just bring more to the table. But this also happens to a second brigand/swashie or a second SK/pally.  C'est la vie.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(What I am a little annoyed about is that our goodie counterparts the monks seem to have been quite pumped up and I feel as if my bruiser is now the lesser of the two, both in raid and group desirability.. I don't know how it is possible, but I'm getting out DPS-ed by monks most of the time these days, eventhough I'm very much so DPS focused gear/spell/AA wise! But that's probably worth a whole different discussion.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gladesman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Bruisers are not among the most desired classes for raids.. but that doesn't mean we don't contribute anything at all. It's just one of these classes that yeah, 1 is enough to take along and yes you will be left outside when 24+ people show up and there are other classes to choose from that just bring more to the table. But this also happens to a second brigand/swashie or a second SK/pally.  C'est la vie.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(What I am a little annoyed about is that our goodie counterparts the monks seem to have been quite pumped up and I feel as if my bruiser is now the lesser of the two, both in raid and group desirability.. I don't know how it is possible, but I'm getting out DPS-ed by monks most of the time these days, eventhough I'm very much so DPS focused gear/spell/AA wise! But that's probably worth a whole different discussion.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i agree with all of that except one thing with 2 brigands you can keep dispatch up a lot longer so a 2nd brig is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] useful addition :smileyvery-happy:

[Thoral]

When a bruiser uses Mantis Star to debuff stamina, how does anyone know how effective it was?  I assume that it doesn't count toward the bruisers's DPS in the parse, so will anyone actually notice it?  Also for my own info, if you have 8 ranks in Mantis Star, how many HEALTH does that reduce?<div></div>

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>ekopocka wrote:When a bruiser uses Mantis Star to debuff stamina, how does anyone know how effective it was?  I assume that it doesn't count toward the bruisers's DPS in the parse, so will anyone actually notice it?  Also for my own info, if you have 8 ranks in Mantis Star, how many HEALTH does that reduce?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Each mob has it's own HP per stam calculation. Or at least they used to... you really noticed a big difference on an epic mob after 200+ stam is debuffed. Assuming that hasn't changed much, a true epic x4 mob probably has something around 1000 hps per stam. So it should be noticeable.It'll never show on parses as a hit or a debuff or anything but most parsers will show you total amount of damage done to a mob which helps in figuring out how much hit points were being debuffed.</div>

[TheSummoned]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> TheSummoned wrote: <div></div> <p>I followed Fable's advancement closely, since I was in a rival raiding guild. The only time Fable had a bruiser was at the beginning of T7/end of T6, but that bruiser commited suicide (R.I.P.) and they have been bruiserless ever since.P.S.: Oh, and they had Vopice beginning of T6, but he quit after 2 or so months into DoF.</p> <div></div> <p> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>So true however they do have pauzze so they do have a brawler and let me borrow your dirge pls <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>p.s what happened to daveke when he left fable ?</p><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class="date_text">01-05-2007</span> <span class="time_text">09:11 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Daveke was in Unity after Raay retired from the raiding scene. He was the one that PM'd Fable leadership asking for strats on the princes.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TheSummoned on <span class=date_text>01-06-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>I followed Fable's advancement closely, since I was in a rival raiding guild. The only time Fable had a bruiser was at the beginning of T7/end of T6, but that bruiser commited suicide (R.I.P.) and they have been bruiserless ever since.<BR><BR>P.S.: Oh, and they had Vopice beginning of T6, but he quit after 2 or so months into DoF.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So true however they do have pauzze so they do have a brawler and let me borrow your dirge pls <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>p.s what happened to daveke when he left fable ?<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <SPAN class=date_text>01-05-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:11 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Daveke was in Unity after Raay retired from the raiding scene. He was the one that PM'd Fable leadership asking for strats on the princes.<BR> <P>Message Edited by TheSummoned on <SPAN class=date_text>01-06-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ahhhhhh <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Greavous]

<DIV>  <P>I <SPAN>haven't</SPAN> heard so much bleating as I have heard in this bloody discussion. Ether a lot of the people <SPAN>commenting</SPAN> have never played a Bruiser at the top lvl or are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] whipped into believing they are weak. I raid 5 - 6 days a week with a guild that are knocking out a lot of EoF zones including Freethinkers and Inner sanctum (only so you know this is from experience and not some labs farmer).</P> <P>Firstly <SPAN>don't</SPAN> let anyone tell you a Bruiser <SPAN>cant</SPAN> tank Epic mobs. The problem is most people don't understand how a Bruiser tanks so don't know how to set a group for him or heal him. Having said that we are not designed to be MT in epic zones. Thats not our job (normally). Our job is when the MT has ether been dropped or is getting hammered, we take that mob and hold it till the MT is back up or the healers have caught up. Drag has given us a <SPAN>hugely</SPAN> important role in raids. Anyone who doesn't see the use for that is BLIND. Instant agro for 5 secs? Bet ya there are a few OT's out there that would love to have that. Couldn't count the amount of times I've saved the MT from going down with that.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>Second. What happened the last time u saw a Wiz or Ranger or <insert agro magnet here> grab agro and watch as the mobs runs randomly through the raid after the <SPAN>for mentioned</SPAN><SPAN>perpetrator.</SPAN> If any of you have tanked in raids before u will understand that A: trying to see which way's up let alone which way the mob has run is a coin toss for the first 2 secs and B: I was in the perfect spot to tank this and now I got to go running all over the place to try and grab a <SPAN>renagade</SPAN> mob of some random <insert agro magnet here>. Well my MT <SPAN>doesn't</SPAN> have to worry about that. Nothing can get a mob back to the right place faster than a insta Sonic fist right up the mobs [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and ether drag or rescue or both straight back to where he was .5 of a sec ago. If you arnt used to doing this perhaps you need to start or go back to farming named in Sanctum.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>Forget that we do some solid dps, forget that we can heal our selves causing less load on our healers, forget that if the raid wipes we <SPAN>don't</SPAN> all have to start from the beginning again because the Bruiser has a feign death and enough health to live through an AE or a Dot. Forget that when it comes to short burst damage there are hardly any that can out dps us giving the raid a huge boost for when u are trying to burn D'Lizta Viswin past his 5%. Don't worry that we can intercept damage of the MT. It doesn't matter that if a mob throws up a raid wide stun that you are totally immune to it for 30 secs and because of that all the healers arnt gonna be wiped <SPAN>out. It</SPAN> really <SPAN>doesn't</SPAN> matter that I can put my 80% avoidance on a healer to use half the time.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>But the most important.</P> <P>We are the sexiest toons in the game</P> <P>Every raid needs a Bruiser</P> <P><BR></P> <P>If you don't agree with me thats ok. Go play a Monk and stop calling your self a Brawler.</P> <P>Sick of the whinging whining little boygirls who don't have an duel wield AK47 and cant do everything. Most of my plate tank mate are so jealous of the things we can do.</P> <P>I love being a Bruiser. Don't tell me I can't just cause u can't.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>End of rant.</P></DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greavous wrote:<BR> <DIV>  <P>I <SPAN>haven't</SPAN> heard so much bleating as I have heard in this bloody discussion. Ether a lot of the people <SPAN>commenting</SPAN> have never played a Bruiser at the top lvl or are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] whipped into believing they are weak. I raid 5 - 6 days a week with a guild that are knocking out a lot of EoF zones including Freethinkers and Inner sanctum (only so you know this is from experience and not some labs farmer).</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/So do a lot of the people you come here to rant at so please remember that</FONT></P> <P>Firstly <SPAN>don't</SPAN> let anyone tell you a Bruiser <SPAN>cant</SPAN> tank Epic mobs. The problem is most people don't understand how a Bruiser tanks so don't know how to set a group for him or heal him. Having said that we are not designed to be MT in epic zones. Thats not our job (normally). Our job is when the MT has ether been dropped or is getting hammered, we take that mob and hold it till the MT is back up or the healers have caught up. Drag has given us a <SPAN>hugely</SPAN> important role in raids. Anyone who doesn't see the use for that is BLIND. Instant agro for 5 secs? Bet ya there are a few OT's out there that would love to have that. Couldn't count the amount of times I've saved the MT from going down with that.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Hmm you contradict yourself my friend we can tank but we arnt designed to MT ? </FONT></P> <P>Second. What happened the last time u saw a Wiz or Ranger or <insert agro magnet here> grab agro and watch as the mobs runs randomly through the raid after the <SPAN>for mentioned</SPAN><SPAN>perpetrator.</SPAN> If any of you have tanked in raids before u will understand that A: trying to see which way's up let alone which way the mob has run is a coin toss for the first 2 secs and B: I was in the perfect spot to tank this and now I got to go running all over the place to try and grab a <SPAN>renagade</SPAN> mob of some random <insert agro magnet here>. Well my MT <SPAN>doesn't</SPAN> have to worry about that. Nothing can get a mob back to the right place faster than a insta Sonic fist right up the mobs [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and ether drag or rescue or both straight back to where he was .5 of a sec ago. If you arnt used to doing this perhaps you need to start or go back to farming named in Sanctum.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Yup thanks for confirming everything we already know oO</FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <P>Forget that we do some solid dps, forget that we can heal our selves causing less load on our healers, forget that if the raid wipes we <SPAN>don't</SPAN> all have to start from the beginning again because the Bruiser has a feign death and enough health to live through an AE or a Dot. Forget that when it comes to short burst damage there are hardly any that can out dps us giving the raid a huge boost for when u are trying to burn D'Lizta Viswin past his 5%. Don't worry that we can intercept damage of the MT. It doesn't matter that if a mob throws up a raid wide stun that you are totally immune to it for 30 secs and because of that all the healers arnt gonna be wiped <SPAN>out. It</SPAN> really <SPAN>doesn't</SPAN> matter that I can put my 80% avoidance on a healer to use half the time.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/So do scouts , so do potions + palis , so does every tinkerer in the game + necros , short burst dps is powned by a swashie with cunning/daring , a raid a huge boost how ? , intercept so can every other fighter oh and sanctuary + charms ftw on the last point.</FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <P>But the most important.</P> <P>We are the sexiest toons in the game</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/hehe sooo true <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Every raid needs a Bruiser</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Again true</FONT></P> <P>If you don't agree with me thats ok. Go play a Monk and stop calling your self a Brawler.</P> <P>Sick of the whinging whining little boygirls who don't have an duel wield AK47 and cant do everything. Most of my plate tank mate are so jealous of the things we can do.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/And all those plate tanks are the MTs /shrug its not about what we can do its about what we can't do is the whole issue</FONT> </P> <P>I love being a Bruiser. Don't tell me I can't just cause u can't.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Who is saying they dont love there bruiser ?</FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <P>End of rant.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>/End of me being a petty little [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lol </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>p.s its been ages since u been here gre !</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>Greavous wrote:<div><p> The problem is most people don't understand how a Bruiser tanks so don't know how to set a group for him or heal him.</p></div><hr></blockquote>I think the problem is that brawlers are by design the weakest tank. However I don't feel it was intentionally designed that way... but, it just ended up that way with AAs coming into play. Our tanking AAs are almost non-existant, and plate classes can get their avoidance up extremely high if they spec for tanking, while still maintaining their superior MIT. Also all plate classes have better means of generating hate, where we rely mostly on our damage for that which takes a tremendous hit in Defensive stance.That isn't to say I have a problem with that balance... other than I sort of wish we had the <u>option</u> to go completely tank spec because right now we don't. But it's not a big deal to me either way.Anyway I've said it before: put enough healers and buffs on a mage and they can tank. I don't think the ability to do so really says anything except... <b>just because it's possible does not mean it is efficient</b>. But that's a different topic entirely.P.S. Whining about whining FTL <span>:smileytongue:</span></div>

[Greavous]

<DIV>  <P>Hehe good to be back in here DarkMirrax</P> <P><BR></P> <P>The answers I gave was in response to the statement “not needed in raids”.</P> <P>These are the reasons we are needed. Seems like most people in here don't want to see why, just why not.</P> <P>Your statement “ Yup thanks for confirming everything we already know” is the sad part. You may know and take it for granted, but it appears the vast <SPAN>majority</SPAN> have no idea how a Bruiser is played well so sometimes a heads up is called for. You then give a list of things that can be achieved by a whole range of other classes/potions/tinkered.... We have it all in one package baby.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>I think seriously the biggest single thing that a Bruiser brings to a raid is the ability to take the mob when ever he/she darn well pleases and stay up long enough to make it a worthwhile move.</P> <P>We <SPAN>generally</SPAN> have 5-6 peeps sitting out most raids. I would be in the top 10 needed class and have never been sat out. Maybe its play style? Maybe it's cause I'm cute.</P> <P>If your raid doesn't get why you should be there, show them.</P> <P>Tanking is 80% attitude.</P> <P>Without that you can have Mit coming out your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and be hopeless.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>On a side note. I know this is about raiding and Epic mobs but tanking Heroics there is none better than a Bruiser. I self buff 74% Avoidance and 52% Mit. I very rarely am in defensive stance and usually pure offensive while tanking (with usually 6-7 mobs hanging off me at a time) Have grouped with some of the best Guards and Zerka's around. Every healer tells me I am far easier to keep up than any of them. No way can they hold agro off me. Thats my mob.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>Rejoice my Brawler <SPAN>bretheren</SPAN> and stop <SPAN>listening</SPAN> to the bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] being served to you. Yes there are some things that I would loved to be changed. But if SOE got off there collective [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and tried to fix some <SPAN>classes</SPAN> do you really think that its us that needs the most loving?</P> <P><BR></P> <P>Single groups and solo we are gods. In a raid if I want the mob there is no argument.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>Now stand back and watch the number crunches come out and show us all how wrong I am.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>While they have their calculators out , how about we go out and kick some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Greavous on <span class=date_text>01-06-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:13 PM</span>

[Ether]

<P>Greavous,</P> <P>An arrogant post with little concrete. Touching on each point:</P> <P>1) If the MT goes down on a multi mob encounter, dont waste your time. You cant recover that. I would never contest that we can do a fine job tanking a single epic mob. We can, and do it well.</P> <P>2) I'd take a brigand with appeal for mercy to clean up that mess than a bruiser any day of the week. And the brigand brings far more to the table for the raid. Nice try though.</P> <P>3) lots of points there. Yeah we have lots of little goodies. Your clincher though was the raid wide stun. Usually fix that pretty quick with my defiler, so again nice try.</P> <P> </P> <P>Finally glad you love being a bruiser, never said you shouldnt (dont think anybody here did).</P>

[Greavous]

<DIV>  <P>Thank you for your positive feedback there Etherin. <SPAN>Perhaps</SPAN> if you also were a true brawler you too might have a little arrogance.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>Today while OT'g DT some crazed fool agro'd the 2 eyeballs at zone in. Our Guard who is no mug <SPAN>grabbed</SPAN> one and I grabbed the other. He got taken out almost instantly because half his healing team still hadent zoned in. I grabbed both eye balls and tanked them while the rest of the raid zoned in and caught up. Only The MT and one of his healers hit the floor and both stayed on me till they were toast. So what your saying is u wouldn't have wasted your time and just left the raid to wipe?</P> <P><BR></P> <P>I keep hearing that a bruiser can't tank multi mobs. This is such bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Are we the best at it? no. Is it harder for us than a Zerka? Hell yes. Do we just say “ I'm not wasting my time?</P> <P>[Removed for Content] off.</P> <P>There is no way a Brigand can tank as well as a Bruiser. Can Brigand tank Epics. Yes with some crazy healers but not for long. We generally run with 2 Brigands. Why would we have another and miss out on all the other stuff we bring.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>Your defiler may very well have a loverly raid wide anti stun and I love them <SPAN>dearly</SPAN> for it,(I also have one) but when we need to pull a mob out of a bunch of stuff with out grabbing agro on the whole zone ill pass on that thanks.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>Dude please <SPAN>don't</SPAN> just take pot shots at people when they do things you can't.</P> <P>If you don't like tanking multi mobs thats fine. And if you <SPAN>consider</SPAN> me arrogant well good cause your right. I am arrogant.</P> <P>Better than being a whining pratt that loves to try and show how informed he is. Do u ever tank or do you just watch your Brigand do it?</P></DIV>

[Ether]

Greav,If you had any understanding of the brigand class and had read my post you would understand that appeal for mercy merely reduces the hate to the next poor sod the mob hits. Didnt say anything about tanking with the brig.You have resorted to quite a bit of name-calling, so hope you arent all flustered and bashing things in your home. You dont seem to handle being taunted well. Pity.I think its grand you picked up the gazers in DT, but from the sounds of it, the guardian didnt have any healing, but you did. Go figure.Arguing that you can handle multi-mob encounters is ludicrous and would love to hear a more developed argument for how (with our 3 total means of doing this).I dont expect any more civilized posts from you though...

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Etherin wrote:<BR>Greav,<BR><BR>If you had any understanding of the brigand class and had read my post you would understand that appeal for mercy merely reduces the hate to the next poor sod the mob hits. Didnt say anything about tanking with the brig.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Uber Skill , Raid Saver on numerous occasions , can also be used to split 2 mobs very effectivly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR><BR>You have resorted to quite a bit of name-calling, so hope you arent all flustered and bashing things in your home. You dont seem to handle being taunted well. Pity.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Agreed mate keep the bashing out of it theres not any need , just provide your critiscm without the addional Haxors<BR></FONT><BR>I think its grand you picked up the gazers in DT, but from the sounds of it, the guardian didnt have any healing, but you did. Go figure.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Thats what i would get from that too , he was first to grab and went down cos the healers hadnt reacted by the time you grabbed them you would have had all the heals focused on you and yes with my brigand ive tanked those eyes in an emergency too (taunt FTW!) its the MT issue that everyone has , you zoned in at ST/MA why not allowed to MT if we are so good and healers prefer healing you ? second question did you OT/ST AD and how did you do i would love to know?</FONT><BR><BR>Arguing that you can handle multi-mob encounters is ludicrous and would love to hear a more developed argument for how (with our 3 total means of doing this).</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/I agree with Etherin on this Grev mate , multi mob aggro we have to work like fiends at to maintain and even then i have to use drag to keep bringing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] runners back so i fkn focus on them ! so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] frustrating when i can tank better with my brigand than my brusier .. is that right ?</FONT></P> <P><BR>I dont expect any more civilized posts from you though...</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Keep it civilized and constructive pls or you will just get the thread locked</FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[tt66]

<div></div>Well, grats to Gungo for an actually helpful post, detailing things that might make a Bruiser an actual asset to the raid. Cheers for that, it at least gives me some modicum of hope for the future!Those people posting variants on "stop whining" or "hey! we have taunts!" or "it doesn't matter as long as you listen to the raid leader" or "omg u suxor!"  were not quite as helpful...<div></div>

[Gladesman]

<DIV>I don't really get the whole "bruisers can tank oh so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well" or "fix me, I can't tank!" discussion anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We're part of the fighter subclass, not all fighters should be equally good tanks. Unless we of course want to give all our nifty stuff to the guardian or zerker? After LU13 brawlers got such a boost that a lot of people seem to forget that when the game actually came out brawlers were just scouts with slightly less DPS and better tanking ability and some other cute abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, it's nice I don't get insta killed when raiding and that I can off-tank stuff, but if I would've wanted to be designated MT I would've gone back to my guardian whose only claim to fame is that tanking ability. Bruisers and monks are so much more than just an average tank is all I'm saying, I guess. </DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tt66 wrote:<BR> Well, grats to Gungo for an actually helpful post, detailing things that might make a Bruiser an actual asset to the raid. Cheers for that, it at least gives me some modicum of hope for the future!<BR><BR>Those people posting variants on "stop whining" or "hey! we have taunts!" or "it doesn't matter as long as you listen to the raid leader" or "omg u suxor!"  were not quite as helpful...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>those people were just giving you there opinion just like you asked mate and as for the it doesnt matter as long as you listen that my friend is the number 1 commandment for a raider :smileywink so if your looking for helpful look no further than that comment.</P> <P>p.s everyone has there own perceptions of how a brusier should be mine for example is a bruiser is a tank , designed to tank (hence the term avoidance TANK) but more recently made into dps and as such the fun has somewhat diminished for me pesonally due to the fact that if i wanted my brusier to be dps i would have made my brigand my main toon or played a pet class.  This doesnt mean i dont love my bruiser or wish soe would make avoidance as effective as Miti tanking but it does mean that due to my brigand bringing a lot more to raids my poor brusier is a little unloved atm <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>just my 2cp and please dont listen to the 14 year old leet speak its gibberish to me too.</P></DIV>

[Thoral]

Thanks you all for all the helpful info.  I'm just starting to go on full labs pickup raids, and several of the posters here have given me a few techniques to try out once I have some gear that will let me take a hit.  I've tried off-tanking when the main tank goes down, but I usually get two-shotted.  I guess my relic tunic doesn't quite make up for all my other gear still being master crafted.  =)<div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>What i don't necessarily agree with is the fact bruisers are the best heroic tanks. </DIV> <DIV>Yes we rock on white con and some yellow and below zones/encounters. But nizara which isn't to hard anymore or MM castle i still rather play our guild gaurd. While playing both. I have to say the gaurd is a much easier tank to keep up. Although when i play the guard i box gungo and have him follow the group for more dps (outside group) and if The dang legedary legs would ever drop for me.</DIV> <DIV>Imho bruisers are the best tank on anything white and below. Yellow mobs i really depends on the zone/mob.  </DIV>

[Bobbette]

I seem to have a role on raids.  Is it as a MT? Nooo, of course not.  But I would have rolled a guardian if I wanted to MT raids.  Or continue to play my 70SK so I could tank more.I like the versatility of my bruiser.  I like that she can do some very nice dps.  I like that I'm able to off-tank long enough for the MT to get back up.  I like that my FD & avoidance & buffs let me help the raid by springing traps, doing some scouting, triggering mobs, pulling some things, etc.I guess I'm one of those bruisers who isn't upset I can't tank like a plate class.  Probably because my original main was a plate class and I changed to bruiser because it really is more versatile.  But versatility will always mean someone can do X better than you -- because that's all they can do.<div></div>

[Thoral]

<div></div>I hate to keep this thread going, but I encountered something last night I have to ask about.  We put together a group to do the last Sol Ro diety quest with the heroic ring event in the Oratorium.  We ended up with a Monk in almost all fabled gear tanking since I only had a relic chest and mastercrafted.  We had a 67 healer and the rest were wizards and warlocks.Now I know I can tank up to about 72 or 73 triple ups if I have a full group that includes a good healer, so I figured the almost fabled monk could handle the 74 and 75 triple ups.  Well, it became apparent very quickly that he and the healer couldn't do it.  Every time he got hit, he was taking a quarter to a third of his health, and there was a nasty DOT that was hurting him pretty bad, too.  The healer was healing like mad, but I'm not sure if he was also curing the DoT.My question is whether or not it is typical for an almost-fabled brawler to die in about 4 hits (about 8 seconds) if he's not well buffed and not healed?If so, then how can a brawler off-tank an epic mob for the 30 seconds it would take to rezz and re-buff the MT?  I'm just starting to raid labs, and I was going to make it my goal to be able to tank for about 30 seconds in case the MT goes down, but now I don't know if it is possible.  I may be better off going all DPS and just FD when the tank goes down.Edit:  And how much of surviving is based on skill and how much on gear?  As far as I can tell, you just switch to defensive stance, pop a rescue or drag, and hit your self stun mit boost.Thanks!<div></div><p>Message Edited by ekopocka on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 AM</span>

[Ishya]

<div></div> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ishya on <span class=date_text>01-13-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 AM</span>

[Grimchaos87]

<div></div>Honestly when I rolled my bruiser I only cared to tank heroic groups (tanked 75% of the groups I was in on my way to 70) and solo well.  I hit 70, and started raiding, and was consistantly told that bruisers were terrible dps, that we were T2, and I would probably never break 1k dps.  I mastered all my spells out, and sudenly was parsing top 3 in my raid aliance, and that shut them up for a bit.  They still said that a bruiser could never tank epic mobs without being a huge problem for the raid as a whole.  I left that aliance and joined a guild with some friends.  They were willing to atleast let me tank Courts, which was simple, but hell, a mage that can hold agro can tank courts lol.  then about a month ago I was given the opertunity to tank labs.  We had a guard with us, but the raid leader wanted to see how well I could tank the zone.  We went through without any trouble whatsoever.  Three amigos stayed on me the whole fight, which shocked me because of our poor group agro holding skills.  Vyemm never stopped targetting me, I never lost agro to his mem blur, and was able to save rescue for alzid prime.  The healers told me that I was incredibly easy to keep up.  Once they stabilized me in the green I never left it.  I used a group setup of warden  (a ton of extra mit constantly) assassin, dirge, me (70 bruiser), mystic, and a templar.  I had no trouble keeping agro, and no trouble staying alive.  This past weekend I duel tanked tarinax with our guild guardian.  Again the healers had no trouble keeping me up, and with the great dps I can put out and taunting stance I was able to keep it off the dps.  Parses from labs showed I avoided aprox 70% of the mobs auto attack, which is about what my avoidence was (I'm a dps specced bruiser, not tank specced).  My point is that we are extreamly versitile, and if my guild schedules a raid that neither of the guardians show up for, they just have me tank it.  I am usually sitting at 1200-1500 dps in raid when not tanking, so having me there is not a burden at all.  Sunday night in freethinkers the second tank went LD, so I threw on def stance and some mit gear, and filled in for him.  It is more then posible to tank epics with a bruiser.  With the recent changes to epic to hit bonuses we avoid alot, and with the mit changes and the proper group setup our mit can stay well over 5k the entire raid.  We are far from useless.  We are not the best choice for a MT, because avoidence in the end is random.  I might avoid 15 attacks in a row, but then get hit 10 times and die because the healers cant handle the spike.  Don't try to tell me bruisers can't tank epics, try it yourself.  My guild is far from incredibly advaced.  We have still only killed the first named in freethinkers.  This is not some guild that could put [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near anyone in the tank spot and still make it through any zone.Dont knock it till ya try it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Grimchaos87 on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 AM</span>

[Thoral]

Great post!  That gives me hope.  Has anyone else tried this with similar, or different, results?<div></div>

[Grimchaos87]

btw, about your question about gear.  I am fully fabled and mastered out atm, so I am not saying that a bruiser in fully mastercrafted gear and ad1s can tank epics, I'm just saying its posible to tank them with the right gear and group setup <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Greavous]

<P></P> <P>Haha good job Grimchaos. Was beginning to think all my Bruiser brethren had bought the lie. Good to see ya doing the damage instead of <SPAN>believing</SPAN> the bull [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P>Front up brawlers. Only your fear of failure holds you back.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>To your post ekopocka, I very rarely use my self stun mit buff. The only time is when half the raid including half the healers has bitten the dust. Not only can you last the 30 seconds but most epics you will last the entire fight. Trouble is if you <SPAN>don't</SPAN> have the gear its gonna be hard to do.</P> <P>Yes ability is very important, but with out good solid mit and high avoid your just gonna get sat on your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P>Message Edited by Greavous on <SPAN class=date_text>01-09-2007</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:09 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Greavous on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 PM</span>

[Bobbette]

<div><blockquote><hr>ekopocka wrote:<div></div>I hate to keep this thread going, but I encountered something last night I have to ask about.  We put together a group to do the last Sol Ro diety quest with the heroic ring event in the Oratorium.  We ended up with a Monk in almost all fabled gear tanking since I only had a relic chest and mastercrafted.  We had a 67 healer and the rest were wizards and warlocks.Now I know I can tank up to about 72 or 73 triple ups if I have a full group that includes a good healer, so I figured the almost fabled monk could handle the 74 and 75 triple ups.  Well, it became apparent very quickly that he and the healer couldn't do it.  Every time he got hit, he was taking a quarter to a third of his health, and there was a nasty DOT that was hurting him pretty bad, too.  The healer was healing like mad, but I'm not sure if he was also curing the DoT.My question is whether or not it is typical for an almost-fabled brawler to die in about 4 hits (about 8 seconds) if he's not well buffed and not healed?If so, then how can a brawler off-tank an epic mob for the 30 seconds it would take to rezz and re-buff the MT?  I'm just starting to raid labs, and I was going to make it my goal to be able to tank for about 30 seconds in case the MT goes down, but now I don't know if it is possible.  I may be better off going all DPS and just FD when the tank goes down.Edit:  And how much of surviving is based on skill and how much on gear?  As far as I can tell, you just switch to defensive stance, pop a rescue or drag, and hit your self stun mit boost.Thanks!<div></div><p>Message Edited by ekopocka on <span class="date_text">01-09-2007</span> <span class="time_text">07:27 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well I managed to stay up the other night when our MT went down ... the mob went for the healers, I popped rescue (maybe drag too - can't remember), taunted, threw up my Hardened Skin which I've discovered I can taunt through, and just kept taunting.  It kept me up nicely while the healers got the MT back into the game and then he took back over.I should add that when I did that, I was wearing all legendary no fabled.I should also add that we have a monk (yeah he's in very nice gear) that is frequently our OT when we raid.  So it's entirely possible.  I think alot depends upon the player in question too.((Cures are hugely important too.  I was in a raid where the healer wasn't curing and died twice on the same trash mob just to the uncured dot.))</div>

[krazeeboy913]

<DIV>Im not gonna act like a know it all but a lvl 57 with only adept spells and legendary/treasured with adornment gear i am easily 2nd to 4th on the parse. ([expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] wizards!) Maybe ur doing something wrong if ur getting out dps by a SK. :smileyindifferent:</DIV>

[neon_24]

<DIV>Not being needed on a raid yea it sucks BUT you just have to work harder to make yourself wanted on the raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been gone on military leave for about 3 weeks and i just got back last night and as soon as i got in vent i hear "ITS ABOUT [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] TIME" "dude we so needed u the other night on Mayong MM" </DIV> <DIV>With Bruisers and monks is more about what the player can bring to the raid than spesfic spells and abilities. Albeit i like to think i bring [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good nubers to the parse even when not in the optimal group i have base 30% melee crit chance without potions or buffs, 43% DPS mod and 8% recast reduction that will be 12% when i get the chel'Drak ring, Full Knockouts line with Drag. As my raid leader says "your not a tank your a scout with Utility" and when i'm there i raid so i am perfectly happy with our class and where we stand in the game atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>I just finished reading this entire thread word for word.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I want to say Thank You to all the whiners out there that don't posses the strength to lead, and are too incompatent to follow.</DIV> <DIV>After reading this thread, I feel like becomming the best brawler raid tank in the world.  I feel like I'm going to tank every epic in this game, and do it well, JUST to show you all what morons you are.  Not only that, but I play a monk on a pvp server. So i'm going to do this without defilers, inq, SK, Coercer, or brigands.  I'm going to lead my guild to glory, not for myself. But for you, for all the whiney pissants who made the last hour of my life so enjoyable.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I say good day!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. To the people who didn't whine, this is NOT directed at you.</DIV>

[Ether]

<blockquote><hr>DynamicPerformance wrote:<DIV></DIV><DIV>I just finished reading this entire thread word for word.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>And I want to say Thank You to all the whiners out there that don't posses the strength to lead, and are too incompatent to follow.</DIV><DIV>After reading this thread, I feel like becomming the best brawler raid tank in the world.&nbsp; I feel like I'm going to tank every epic in this game, and do it well, JUST to show you all what morons you are.&nbsp; Not only that, but&nbsp;I play a monk on a pvp server. So i'm going to do this without defilers, inq, SK, Coercer, or brigands.&nbsp; I'm going to lead my guild to glory, not for myself. But for you, for all the whiney pissants who made the last hour of my life so enjoyable.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I say good day!</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>P.S. To the people who didn't whine, this is NOT directed at you.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Dynamic,While those pills last, perhaps you should invade North Korea and save the world? I heard that Kim guy packs a wallop of a kidney punch.

[DarkMirrax]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etherin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DynamicPerformance wrote:<BR><DIV></DIV><BR><DIV>I just finished reading this entire thread word for word.</DIV><BR><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV>And I want to say Thank You to all the whiners out there that don't posses the strength to lead, and are too incompatent to follow.</DIV><BR><DIV>After reading this thread, I feel like becomming the best brawler raid tank in the world.&nbsp; I feel like I'm going to tank every epic in this game, and do it well, JUST to show you all what morons you are.&nbsp; Not only that, but&nbsp;I play a monk on a pvp server. So i'm going to do this without defilers, inq, SK, Coercer, or brigands.&nbsp; I'm going to lead my guild to glory, not for myself. But for you, for all the whiney pissants who made the last hour of my life so enjoyable.&nbsp; </DIV><BR><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV>I say good day!</DIV><BR><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV>P.S. To the people who didn't whine, this is NOT directed at you.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dynamic,<BR><BR>While those pills last, perhaps you should invade North Korea and save the world? I heard that Kim guy packs a wallop of a kidney punch.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>nah i would say vanguard or wow would suit him better :smileywink:

[Ishya]

It's pretty simpleif you cant tank, or you cant reach top 5 dps in a raidyou are doing something wrongthis thread is so full of B******* i a m  ashamed i am part of this bruiser-community, so many whiners<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishya wrote:<BR>It's pretty simple<BR><BR><BR>if you cant tank, <BR>or you cant reach top 5 dps in a raid<BR><BR><BR>you are doing something wrong<BR><BR><BR>this thread is so full of B******* i a m  ashamed i am part of this bruiser-community, so many whiners<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>top 5 ? consistantly ? what above  ....</P> <P>2 conjurers ,  1 necro , 2 brigands and 2 swashie ? not to mention the wizzies cos granted we can get over them on SOME encounters but top 5 ? umm not unless your on a pvp server with only evil classes lol</P> <P>oh and ppl arnt whinners its there own personal opinions which they are entitled to and with your post count you have hardly been "Part of the bruiser community" have you ?</P> <P>if its bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] dont post , its easy </P>

[gelinx]

<DIV>double post > <</DIV><p>Message Edited by gelinx on <span class=date_text>01-13-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 AM</span>

[gelinx]

<P>Like I said before Greavous and Ishya, this is a sad thread on our class forums.  People doubt too much of the capabilities this class actually has. Which is great dps, minor utility, and the ability to stop a wipe when the MT goes down.  Sure we are not made for MT'ing, but we can step up if needed.  To be honest, the better encounters in the game require a guardian to tank it, sure a 'zerker can try to do the same, but they couldn't do it as well as a Guard.  The Guard in return sacrifices dmg output (though they can try to make up for a lil of it of it with STA line). The Guardian is only really there at a raid to MT, it would be a waste having him not MT, and it would suck to have more than one at a raid. </P> <P>At the time being, I am in almost full fabled.  With one healer in the group I can hit about 60-63% mitigation, and have about 70-74% avoidance. Dps specced on Brawler Tree (4-4-8 STA, INT, & WIS) and most of my points on bruiser tree is knockout line with Drag, and Sacrifice line (intercedes), with 4 points into deaggro.  For most raids I am dps that keeps intercedes on the Guardian or another tank.  If the event of a dps (usually gung ho wizzy and warlock) peels off MT, I use Drag and bring it back to the Guard giving him some time to act.  I also have to sweep for traps, and offtank adds when needed. And I must say, I have a hell of a lot of fun doing it. </P> <P>Bruisers and brawlers in general, are a pretty unique class in EQ2.  It was a change to have a monk under a fighter archetype instead of just some dps class in the past EQ and EQOA. The whole art of tanking by avoiding the damage and not just pure mitigation, had gotten meinterested.  So instead of choosing a barbarian warrior like I had in EQOA, I went barbarian brawler.  It was a nice change being nice dps, while being able to solo well and tank if needed.  I did only have him as my tradeskilling alt though, and didn't go back to leveling him until my Guardian was level 61.  But when I did, I had changed back from being just a group and raid only character to something more versatile, and was more fun playing.  I doubt I will go back to playing my Guard, I just have too much fun playing the Bruiser.</P> <P>Anyways, don't give up on your Bruiser. He can indeed fill in any role, but thats not saying that he will be the best capable class for that job.  My class hasn't been skipped for another Brigand/Wizard/Warlock/Necro/Conj/Healer on raids because we do have some importance.  If I can't convince you, then it is up to you to see it.</P>

[Ether]

<P>Ishya,</P> <P>If you are in the top 5, your raid is doing something wrong.</P> <P>On a few rare occasions, yes you could pop up into 5. Top 5 consistently against necro, conjurors, wizards, rangers, brigands, swashbucklers? No. Please. You claim that we are littering the thread with feces, but you have pulled this tidbit yet again from your own vacuous cavity.</P>

[Greavous]

<DIV>One thing I would change in your post Ishya. Not sure if you can tank AND be top 5 in dps. We were short plate last night and were gonna hit Lyceum. Guild leader asked me to tank it. </DIV> <DIV>We destroyed the zone the fastest we ever had. No wipes just next MOB.</DIV> <DIV>From now on we use a Bruiser for this zone. </DIV> <DIV>I was about 12 on dps parser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am rolled to tank not dps. I average around 1000 - 1200 dps on most raids.</DIV> <DIV>Our dps toons are all above 2000.</DIV> <DIV>One day I may go full dps but I love tanking miles too much.</DIV> <DIV>Also Enynti lvl 74 in Inner sanctum should be tanked by a Bruiser. </DIV> <DIV>I laugh in his face.</DIV> <DIV>Funny how we can't tank yellow or orange Epics. Seems it's a regular job for me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Gelinx you hit the nail on the head. People doubt too much the capabilities of this class. Once in a while you will get one shotted (very rarely now) YOU DON'T WANT TO STEP UP IN FRONT OF 23 OTHER PEOPLE AND GET PUT IN YOUR PLACE SO YOU DON'T STEP UP AT ALL. Just cause you can't tank everything seems a lot of you think that means we can't tank anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would really love to see the bruiser community stand up and start beating thier chest a bit. You can call it arrogance if you wish  if it makes you feel better. </DIV> <DIV>The reason Bruiser's don't tank much is our own fault. Peeps don't know what they don't know.</DIV> <DIV>Show them some Bruiser action and you will never have any trouble getting a place in a raid.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Greavous on <span class=date_text>01-13-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:09 PM</span>

[Ishya]

<div></div>thats why i said "or"it all depends on the AP builds )for the non-believers... 2x 8 points  in riposte,parry or deflection does wonders fyi <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Ishya on <span class=date_text>01-14-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:54 AM</span>