Rumble (Taunt/damage stance) on raids.

[gelinx]

Hey all, have a quick question for the other raiding Bruisers out there.  Whats your take on our taunting stance Rumble? Atm, I used to have it always up on raids for the added dps, and to be the third on the hate list on various reasons. But, last night when my guild did a x2 raid in MM castle, I was told by a former paladin who came back to guild recently and was the main tank of the raid, that I should never have the stance up unless I am mt'in. I didn't totally agree with him, but he does know his stuff.  I can't say I'm perfect either, so I try to keep an open mind about bettering myself. But, usually its the Guardian or Zerker that is the mt on most of the raids, and I usually dont have much trouble with it on, unless I use Knockout Combination. Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV>i use it all the time a MT shouldnt really have that much of an issue holding aggro if hes does then tank it yourself :smileywink:</DIV>

[Thail]

I always have mine up. Unless I aboslutely CANNOT take aggro.No one ever thanks you for it but having it up and being 3rd on hate list = saved lives. Makes you 1 or 2 taunts away from getting aggro and with your higher avoidance you can take the pain a lot longer then who ever is 2nd MT (thats if you have a 2nd MT) then FD when they are are rdy to take it or MT is back on his feet.Its also a great way for "them" to blame you Them: "Thail you have your aggro buff up dont you". Me: "Of course"  Them: "Well, stop your messing up the aggro" Me: "Ya, this time I pulled aggro when I didnt want to. But what a  short memory you have I saved our [Removed for Content] 2 fights ago when you forgot to heal MT"Anyway the moral of the story is. YOU know best when to use it and when not to. Beside [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are doing listening to a Pally anyway? What are you a Monk or something?Guys if I start listening to a Pally please shoot me in the head.<div></div>

[Hun]

I always have it up. If the MT can't hold aggro, I'm tanking, whats the problem ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[EQ2Luv]

Turning a mob with directional AE might be one problem... 8^)<div></div>

[DisturbedMagg]

<DIV>Always got it up and to be honest if a pally cant keep aggro with a funnel up and amends then he shouldnt be tanking in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Luv wrote:<BR>Turning a mob with directional AE might be one problem... 8^)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you know what your doing you'll always be ready for the mob to turn to either /rescue it back in place or if it goes to you to turn straight away.</DIV>

[gelinx]

<div></div>Yeah, I wasn't in his group for Amends. Ill list the group setupGroup 1:MysticPaladinCoercerSwashbuckler TemplarMonkGroup 2:Bruiser (me)IllusionistBrigandWarlockNecromancerFuryWhat I am now experimenting with now is the taunt stance dance, in which instead of me toggling rumble, or going full detaunt stance, I would alternate between them to stay high in the list. <div></div><p>Message Edited by gelinx on <span class=date_text>12-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 PM</span>

[DisturbedMagg]

<DIV>so he's getting the funnel from the coercer and has amends on the swashy. Yeah...ok...you should just slap him and tell him to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off already</DIV>

[Kaedi]

<DIV>Yep I keep mine up all the time, staying high on the list is never a bad thing when you can actually take a hit or three and potentially save the softer classes.  Paying attention helps when frontal ae mobs turn to you, just swing them around and everyone's fine.</DIV>

[Zelkova]

If you never pull agro with it, go nuts.If you do, don't use it unless you are MT. Plain and simple. It is pathetic damage and not worth frustrating the healers from needing to save your leather wearing butt every time you peel a mob off of the tank.Need to save someone? Use rescue or Drag. There's no need to "stay third on the hate list".<div></div>

[Valkea]

<blockquote><hr>brekehan wrote:If you never pull agro with it, go nuts.If you do, don't use it unless you are MT. Plain and simple. It is pathetic damage and not worth frustrating the healers from needing to save your leather wearing butt every time you peel a mob off of the tank.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yep. Pretty much common sense. If you're pulling aggro, turn it off. I never have it turned on in raids, or groups, cause I tend to pull aggro quite a bit without it and easily stay #2-#3 on the hate list. Bad MTs? Maybe. But I'd rather keep the healers on them than trying to keep me up ( assuming they can even get heals off before I drop ).<div></div>

[gelinx]

I don't keep it on most of the time, I do have it on for the simple fact that having it attack me after the tank goes down can buy precious seconds for the raid.  Peeling off the MT is not intended, but to be honest Paladins are not the best when it comes to filling the MT role. Guards have all the "I win" buttons, (61 Guard meself) and it was basically the first time I have raided with a Pally being the main tank. For MM x2, I believed that it was important to stay near the top of the hate list because we had one plate and two brawlers, so if Pally goes down its either going after one of the brawlers or one of the DPS classes who can't take a hit as well as I can. Also, the damage proc with the stance is not that pathetic, off the top of my head mines does from 118-200 (master 2 choice). Its basically like having storming fists proc off, which is nice added dps. Anyways, I ended up maxing out the detaunt stance incase it will ever be needed. Being as the assasin can generate some mean hate, I was thinking if he transfered the aggro to me I would basically keep both of us below a couple spots on the threat list. Also, the first couple times I peeled with KO Combo, I would just get next to the MT and wait for him to feel. I dunno, I kinda got my hopes up with a dev mentioning us being viable raid tanks, or maybe it was just a dream. Anyways, I snapped out of coming to that thought, and am know trying to mess around with the stances. The feedback is very much appreciated, its good to get some different point of views from this. <div></div>

[Zelkova]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>gelinx wrote:I don't keep it on most of the time, I do have it on for the simple fact that having it attack me after the tank goes down can buy precious seconds for the raid.  Peeling off the MT is not intended, but to be honest Paladins are not the best when it comes to filling the MT role. Guards have all the "I win" buttons, (61 Guard meself) and it was basically the first time I have raided with a Pally being the main tank. For MM x2, I believed that it was important to stay near the top of the hate list because we had one plate and two brawlers, so if Pally goes down its either going after one of the brawlers or one of the DPS classes who can't take a hit as well as I can. Also, the damage proc with the stance is not that pathetic, off the top of my head mines does from 118-200 (master 2 choice). Its basically like having storming fists proc off, which is nice added dps. Anyways, I ended up maxing out the detaunt stance incase it will ever be needed. Being as the assasin can generate some mean hate, I was thinking if he transfered the aggro to me I would basically keep both of us below a couple spots on the threat list. Also, the first couple times I peeled with KO Combo, I would just get next to the MT and wait for him to feel. I dunno, I kinda got my hopes up with a dev mentioning us being viable raid tanks, or maybe it was just a dream. Anyways, I snapped out of coming to that thought, and am know trying to mess around with the stances. The feedback is very much appreciated, its good to get some different point of views from this. <div></div><hr></blockquote>We aren't raid tanks... not yet. Scouts have always taken hits better than us in raids, and had comparable *actual* evasion. Right now the situation is even more in their favor because of their uncontested shield block (if they're using a shield, anyway). For now just stick to DPS and FD often, and let the chain wearers sit at the top of the hate list while spamming that detaunt <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> We need a VERY serious evasion buff to even come close to our supposed tank role in raids.I've parsed the damage of Rumble over the course of raids and it always adds up to a very small total amount of damage, in the area of 1%. The amount of hate gained from it is not worth it if it's not needed. And having been in the position of healer with a bruiser in group who never turns off Rumble (used a defiler and fury, though my main is my bruiser) I wouldn't dream of putting someone else through the same crap <span>:smileytongue:</span>We can still be good offtanks in some raid encounters with heroic adds, by using our quick taunts.. but well, they're heroics.</div><p>Message Edited by brekehan on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 PM</span>

[Hun]

brekehan, please stop ruin the bruisers reputation. We can definetly be raid tanks. Since the last patch we also have an uncontested deflection part. We can tank epic x4 Named mobs. So please stop it -.-<div></div>

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hunte wrote:brekehan, please stop ruin the bruisers reputation. We can definetly be raid tanks. Since the last patch we also have an uncontested deflection part. We can tank epic x4 Named mobs. So please stop it -.-<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm sorry? - I'm - not the one ruining anything. Even the devs seem to be aware of the fact that brawlers are broken as tanks. The avoidance "buff" we got was an error, it put us right on par with a buckler-equipped scout for tanking... but of course we can only get it in defensive stance while shields can be used always with no penalty. More changes will be upcoming.Of course it's not a black and white issue, but let's be real: put enough healers on a mage and they can tank raids also, hell a necro can probably even hold agro better than any other class. So why not use one? The same reason people generally don't use brawlers. Because it's not efficient. The less healers you have on a tank the better, because you have more room for DPSers and power regen, or whatever else that's needed. Right now our plate brethren are much more efficient tanks and that's the imbalance that needs fixing.I'm definitely not out to ruin anyone's fun though, if you wanna be a tank then keep it up. And you'll be all the better when we get our real buffs. But facts are still facts.</div>

[Bobby_Burning]

<P>I´m sry enone but if you can tank on your raids its because you´re part of a very good raiding force. I´m playing on the same server and i can tell you it´s even difficult to tank groups in mistmoor (and instances alike). Difficult because people won´t let you tank, and because if the healers don´t know their stuff you´re dead. a guard or zerker survives longer.</P> <P> </P> <P>and thats the problem in my view. I know my stuff, and i "could" tank any mob, but my class won´t let me.</P> <P> </P> <P>and [Removed for Content] I don´t have the time to lvl my zerker...</P>

[Supp]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Well, I can see I'm an evil [Removed for Content] just like everyone else here. Hell yes, I always have mine up. I take aggro once in a while, but not often enough to warrant dropping the buff, and it's not like I die if I take aggro anyway. It's not like the mob actually goes anywhere cause I'm standing right next to the tank anyway. There was a short period of time where I was offsetting that buff with the AA the procs a detaunt, but then they changed it so you cant have both that one and rumble up simultaneously. But even so, I seem to be fine. I mean, we're not dps right? So why should they complain? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

[Navino]

<font size="2"><font size="3">I use it occassionally on raids. Doesn't mean I use it all the time, because it really depends if you feel the mt is getting enough hate.For example, I definitely wouldn't use it on a x2 raid, and it's only on the pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] easy raids that I do use the stance. It just boosts my DPS a little bit more, and also I get the hate if the MT goes down, which is also a bit of a bonus, so that the healers and mages don't wipe, etc. </font></font><div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<P> /agree with above posters.</P> <P> </P> <P> I use Rumble ALL the time. If you have a good MT, the added hate should not be a problem in the least (unless you throw up KO combo immediately, but then, you may need to adjust what your doing).</P> <P> </P> <P>Seriously though, a Pally with a coercer and a swashy losing agro to you means either the Pally sucks, the coercer has no clue of his own buffs, or the swashy is afk.</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>Yeah, the only thing I can think of in that case is that the Pally had his Amends on the Swashy, who was using his dethreats (like evade)... that could screw things up for the Pally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it is, there's been a few situations where I've pulled aggro when DPSing aggressively... I've had to shut off Rumble, and was moved out of the DPSing group. Still parsed between 3rd and 4th on the DPS lists...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm currently sitting with the Rumble alternative Shiftiness, because I want to do my DPS and be in the DPS groups without pulling aggro, since I can't seem to take hits anymore anyways either (raids). In group situations, it shouldn't matter though.</DIV>

[Aienaa]

<P></P> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>I'm sorry? - I'm - not the one ruining anything. Even the devs seem to be aware of the fact that brawlers are broken as tanks. The avoidance "buff" we got was an error, it put us right on par with a buckler-equipped scout for tanking... but of course we can only get it in defensive stance while shields can be used always with no penalty. More changes will be upcoming.</FONT> <HR> <P>A little mentally challenged are we??</P> <P>Scouts use ROUND shields for starters...    I also can not possible see where you get that using a shield is without penalty....  Since when is the loss of 1 dual wield weapon not a penalty for using a shield...</P> <P>I don't know how many scout classes you have played, but my 68 Bruiser is a much better tank than my 70 Assassin even though my Assassin is fully fabled and my Bruiser is mastercrafted / Legendary...  Not to mention that the only way a scout can tank is in defensive stance also, which still does not reach the levels of avoidance as a brawler class even with a ROUND shield equiped....</P> <P>You also seem to have forgetten that most scouts do NOT have any form of taunt, which makes it extreamly hard to hold agro, and even harder if you are using a ROUND shield due to loss of DPS</P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 70 Troubador  /  Ninnor - 68 Bruiser</P>

[Devast]

people werent saying that a scout could hold aggro better, but tank better. there is a difference. scouts could definately tank just the same or better with a buckler because of their uncontested blocking, base avoidance and what not. yes... a bruiser could easily hold aggro much better because they have taunts, just like a tank could hold multiple group aggro better than a bruiser.it was being able to take hits from a mob in question not holding aggro. and right now just about anyone in the game can take hits from a mob, but the classes with more hp have a better chance of surviving.<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<div></div><div></div>A rogue.. swashy or brigand.. has a Taunt as part of their class. The brigand at least, also has an ability they can put on others that takes a hit for them, and procs detaunt, like a better form of intercede when you lose aggro.Also, with Rogue AA's they can get better hitpoints/stamina, an AE taunt on par with ours (1k+ at max rank), oh, and get this.. a passive ability that gives extra avoidance, mitigation, health AND a taunt proc when hit, lol.On top of that, Brigands can get increase reuse of their single target Taunt and Intercept/Hate reduction ability... as well as a version of Intercede that's on par with ours at Master 1.If anything, a tank spec'd brigand will have all the same tools as a Bruiser, with the exception of Rumble... instead he gets a version similar to Guardians. Plus, he has a nice "intercept and detaunt on somebody" ability that we have no version of.Match this with similar DPS and debuffs, and I'd say Brigands are just as good at holding aggro, if not better.If Brigands (and swashies) are able to take the hits just as well as us, then they have us beat. I personally think Bruisers have better specialty moment defenses and tank better on non-Epics. I just wish we got even a smidgen of what they got in the form of aggro holding. Gimme just ONE "taunt when hit" ability..<div></div><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 PM</span>

[Landaros]

I dont raid, I dont have a standard group to play with. Therefore I got used to switch rumble off since i stole aggro too often in pickup groups.Nevertheless I think you often can evaluate if your tank is able to keep aggro or not - and if you overestimated him/ her - well still time to fd and switch it off.<div></div>

[Schwertheiliger]

<P>Well,</P> <P>the rumble topic is really complexe and depends on many factors which characterize the situation.</P> <P>In maintenance it's an ability which only effects yourself and others should not worry about so much in my opinion.</P> <P>On my server, innovation (german), I am one of very few top equipped bruisers an I have rumble master 2 always working. MT in my guild is a very experienced berserker who don't take it personal if I get the aggro sometimes. This also happens rather seldom, cause a well formed MT group should boost the MT  proper so that a little rumble don't restructure the whole aggrolist.</P> <P>Furthermore like said before rumble is a CA to improve safety. A switching aggro between tanks is in most cases much safer than if not. Only some mobs with degree bases aoes like tarinax for example shouldnt switch to a bruiser while hes working in the camp spot. However, if someone want to struggle with me about rumble I ask for arguments to put it off. There are quit less...</P> <P> </P> <P>Sometimes I like pickup groups for instances or such kinds cause it's a way to have fun or relax. I appreciate not to be MT therby cause to pull isn't my favourite action. It often happens that someone dislike rumble, but in general it's the same issue like on raids with the same pro and contra. I wish all other tanks would keep cool about that buff. It doesn't say anything about there qualities if they loose aggro to a bruiser. There is no reason for getting annoyed. It seems to me that tanks sometimes feel useless if they aren't first position in aggrolist. I'm sorry but just a negative "feeling" of another I won't drop an useful buff. In contrast these should change their attitude instead of struggling about.</P>