Seriously What is with the complaints?

[wesblueeyes]

<DIV>So I have been seeing so many talk about how the bruiser got nerfed blah blah how we cant solo heroic greens or blues...Where does this come from? I solo heroic greens and blues just fine....Also I see how people complain about how the extra 5% mitigation increase from the defensive stance is worthless. Havent you all noticed we now get a boost to deflection on the stance? I will say that my ability to tank 71+^^^ mobs is not as good as a plate tank, but it can still be done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just seems that people would rather complain than try to see how things are =/ So far I only have 11 AA points in the new EoF lines and my dps is back to normal, I know with the rest it will be higher than what it once was on average. Sure I will agree that KoS fabled/legendary is now garbage compared to the new EoF treasured...but our class is still great.</DIV>

[Rayche]

<DIV>Wow! Cool!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is great news!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey Guys! And here you were all thinking our ability to avoid and absorb damage has been gimped!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All you gotta do is be more like Wes and your problems are solved!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank goodness you came along and explained how this all works...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/em rolls happily into battle certain that he won't have his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handed to him this time... because Wes said so.</DIV>

[Devast]

green and blues heroics are ignoring my avoidance and resists. who said we couldnt solo green and blue heroics? so far the only triple arrow heroics i havent been able to solo are 68+. as for named i havent been able to kill above a 64. and if the named cast, since they nerfed stuns from everything not just knockbacks, i cant keep them interrupted enough to stay alive. and since resists have some extreme curve, the green and blue named will just nuke the hell out of me and im dead.the only way i can see myself soloing these named is kiting them, but i have yet to invest in some snare items.<div></div>

[Jay1981]

<P>I must say I agree with Wes, didn't your mom every tell you it takes more muscles to frown then it does to smile <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I personally love my Ikky Bruiser. I mostly duo with my girlfriends Fury, and we have a blast. She's big into Heroic quests, and everytime we walk into a heroic group of blues, and sometimes whites (depends if we have a deathwish or not hehe) we always laugh at the comment "This group is intended for a group of 3 or more", makes me smile when the two of us dish out the pain! haha. And although we have tried almost every tank/healer combo, we always come back to our lizzys, we have great fun. And I know I may get flamed for saying this, but I (or we I should say) love being "jacks of all trades, and masters of none".</P> <P>Just my 2cp. C'mon people, list some things you like bout your bruisers!</P>

[ganjookie]

I like punting gnomes/dwarves/pecks and rats about off Kelethin bridges!<div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>its not the issue with soloing heroics or even really group tanking. UNLESS you get into high lvl (read orange/possibly yellow con) named, Epic/possibly heroic mobs. Where avodiance has been reduced substantially compared to preEoF. I am not talking about diminshing returns. Thats is a separate change i have no problem with. Its the total reduction of avoidance vs epics. I guess the only way to show this is to parse a log fighting epics, but that is extremely hard to parse when you die so easily becuase you can't avoid them and have reduced mitigation.</P> <P>And to the OP. Not trying to harp on you but you do not understand the deflection increase. It was not a direct increase to deflection. Your deflection did not go up all of a sudden with that update. What happened is the developers realised vs epics or other high con named heroics w high to hit ratios your avodiance is basically removed. So they put in a flat minimum of deflection (not total avodiance) of 12% on master stance. This means you will deflect at least 12%, BUT this 12% still gets reduced a tad by level difference so as a 70 that 12% gets reduced vs a 74/75 mob. The developer relaised vs those fights YOU WILL NOT AVOID. These realised this and put in a base deflection. The problem now comes from the fact that ALL CRUSADERS and WARRIORS can use a tower shield and recieve a 20% base. So basically on ALL EPICS and on high level named heroics. I not only have less mitigation % but less avodiance %. Effectively removing the way i play my character. Prior to this change I, as a fighter, would grab epic adds in raids and protect  DPS/HEALERS. While the MT would tank the raid mob . Now after this change Rogues tank epics better (same uncontested roll vs epics + more mitigation) and provide more dps and buffs. </P> <P>Answer this one question do you beleive rogues should tank epics (and high con heroic named) better then brawlers, because currently that is the case.</P> <P>It was not an issue of we can no longer solo or that we can no longer do general group content. We can. We always could even before the added mit % or base deflect. It was simply we are now preprogrammed to be at a disadvantage. </P> <P>A simple fix to this would be to give ALL fighters a BASE uncontested 360 avodiance of 20%. Remove uncontested block and deflection. Remove the ability to raise this uncontested portion. Warriors are happy because they now have a base 20% 360 (lowered by level). Crusaders are happy becuase they have a base 20% 360.  Brawlers are happy becuase they have a base 20% AND are not worse off then other fighters. And all fighters are happy becuase in no way shape or form will a scout tank better.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><BR>Now for my typical rant<BR>Any fighter who really complains about the above suggestion either <BR>A) is to dumb to realise that the above suggestion is actually an improvement to all fighters<BR>B) has a hardon for keeping brawlers as subpar tanks. <BR>C) ALL of the Above</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:07 AM</span>

[chOgg]

I complain about the above suggestions just because I want to cause trouble.  Now go add a D) to your list!  Phpthpthtphtpht!Thoral, 67 Bruiser, Mistmoore<div></div>

[ganjookie]

^^meanie<div></div>

[eyes007]

<P>well Gungo...errr....YOUR TYPING SUXS SO THERE!</P> <P>Seriously I agree with Gungo about the epic tanking, the stated line was "brawlers will now be able to tank epics" and this is not the case, because of shields and adornments, plates can get close to or more than 50% avoidance with a base percentage to block with a standard 5k mit or more. I still am wary to say it's 360 as my Pally gets hit pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard from the back but I don't know for sure so you are most likely right, nonetheless I do think they should roll back the brawler uncontested avoidance back to 20 (from 15) or that maybe the avoidance engine could very well be broken that alot of people say.</P> <P>However, the OP I agree with her that it isn't all doom and gloom. Things are tougher, but I wouldn't start complaining until I have 100 AA points and see what that does to the way I tank blues and whites, plus with adornments and the gear that comes out of EoF, there isn't much reason for me to complain except for epic tanking which I'm not too bothered on right now anyway, maybe in a few months.</P> <P>The way I see it, everything is precisely gear dependant, no more using a generic piece of armor for any occasion, if you wear tank gear, your dps drops, if you wear dps gear, you're one or 2 shotted, in raids different resists for different mobs, a mix of dp and tanking. In most of the elite guilds this will be standard practice, but I think people have to get used to the fact you can't use the same item for any occasion, thats where I assume people are having difficulties, expecting their one faithful fabled suit is the be-all. I mean, the +3 deflection neck slot item out of Mistmoore Catacombs is a great investment, I'd use that for tanking anyday over the more time consuming MOA, hell, the Necklace of Shadowy Strikes that also dropped in MC is similar and nowhere near as hard to get. I'm building three sets of gear, tanking gear, dps gear, resists gear (mostly jewelry if I can help it), if you still have trouble then fine, it comes down to perception cos frankly, I'm doing bloody okay.</P> <P>Oh SOE, fix the betrayal signature hats quests. I'm tired of being the only sucker in my guild without a class hat and a godamn monk hoolah hat in my inventory that is useless to me. Thanks.</P> <P>EDIT: err the filters let me down on the use of the words bloody and godamn, I don't understand why, you do know there are Kiwis, Aussies and Poms that play this game don't you?</P><p>Message Edited by eyes007 on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>

[wesblueeyes]

<DIV>Ok well I did say that tanking anything 71+ was...interesting but yes I will agree that epic tanking is pretty much out the door for us. I doubt that we ever will be able to do epics better ever, I just don't see SOE spending much time invested in this situation. In the end though we weren't the best at tanking most epics anyways (notice I did say most not all)</DIV>

[Gungo]

true i am not asking to epci tank better then a guard. But i will like to be a better add tank then rogues and comparable add tank to other high dps fighters.

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gojirax wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wow! Cool!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is great news!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey Guys! And here you were all thinking our ability to avoid and absorb damage has been gimped!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All you gotta do is be more like Wes and your problems are solved!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank goodness you came along and explained how this all works...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/em rolls happily into battle certain that he won't have his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handed to him this time... because Wes said so.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5>umm arnt you like LVL 28 ? lol</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5></FONT> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffffff size=3>true i am not asking to epci tank better then a guard. But i will like to be a better add tank then rogues and comparable add tank to other high dps fighters.<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>well with the new changes rogue tanks suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] too so we are definatly on par with them now lol <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>and yes nobody is asking to tank as well as a guard but to be on par with one would be nice ... i mean lets look at the healer class</P> <P>warden ,fury , temp , inq , defiler , mystic</P> <P>is there anyone one of them that doesnt do the job as well as the other but in a different way ? imo thats the best balance soe have in the game atm but no doubt that the healers will disagree with that statement as whatever class you are you will always get people who want to do what another does better than you .. i.e a templar will want a defilers debuffs and wards etc etc etc etc</P> <P><BR> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Rezzonico]

<P>Peter Griffin from "The Family Guy" is stronger than a bruiser...i don't speak anymore.... :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P>NGE is coming :smileyvery-happy:</P><p>Message Edited by Rezzonico on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:09 AM</span>

[DisturbedMagg]

<DIV>I tanked the named before clockwork menace the other night from like 88% to 0% (one shot full fabled raid guardian - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? <<<Issues) tbh avoidance etc worked better for me on that one x4 encouter then it does on heroics. Not much to go off only one encouter, however i had a log but i did a hard reset on my comp and didnt back that up so thats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My current situation i cant raid much for the next few weeks, so like i said above that one named was extremely easy imo,  weather it was a lucky streak or not idk but when i was doing it i actually thought SOE had got something right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ill start parsing some crap when im back full time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>People complaining in regards to heroics prolly dont realise that what their complaining about wasnt meant to be soloable in the first place, personally only one named im having issues with is the Portal Lady in Forsaken city, she hits like brick. But 900 rallos zek status solves that one easily :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i think everything is fine in that respect, its just crap because your used to be able to do something and now you cant, just adapt to it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although i obviously prefere pre EOF because of how easy it was to farm, it just wasnt balanced, and dispite that fact it undoubtably still isnt balanced all in all its alot better. (Thats for the ppl yapping about not being able to solo 68^^^)</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I havnt as yet seen any raiders post parses so maybe its best to start doing that, complaing about something w/o proof is one thing with it is another.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:56 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:02 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <span class=date_text>12-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:06 AM</span>

[BigRed1]

<DIV><Rant On></DIV> <DIV>I agree with Gungo. Before Eof I pulled agro on trash epic in every raid zone and was able to hold agro and survive in DPS built group in my mixed stance. I was able to tank a few of the end named mobs in the Epic instances. Post EoF the trash is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near one shotting me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the arguement that I should wait for 50 more AA and 100 plat or more in adornments<based or my server pricing> just to get back to where I was pre EoF dosent make sense to me..cause where were we before expansion <this is directed at end game raiders>  We were the occasional tank, mainly we were dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been the MA for my guild and the occasional tank ...and I generally make the top 5-10 on dps parse..all this is great ..but we are not raid breakers. Most casters and scouts can out dps us if they are in the right group and equiped the same. As it stands now every other tank in the game blows brawlers away for end game content.  I personally am thinking it is time to move on to a class that actually brings a defined role to raids so I dont have to deal with SoE muddling around with my  class ever GU/Expansion and then waiting for them to fix what they broke. I love my bruiser but I am thinking it might be time to retire him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I said it in a previous post and I will say it agian.. this expansion is the same as the one that SOE did in EQ1 where they took most of the dps and avoidence from the monk class and forced you to spend months getting AA just to regain the spot you were at before expansion. I personally think its a slap in the face of everyone that spent money and time to reach the point they were at pre EoF only to get bumped back for no reason by SOE.</DIV> <DIV> <Rant off></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now all that said, I probably will continue to play my bruiser because my 70 Necro just isnt as fun.  Although at 28AA  with only partial fabled gear he is already out Parsing my bruiser. </DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigRed1 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now all that said, I probably will continue to play my bruiser because my 70 Necro just isnt as fun.  Although at 28AA  with only partial fabled gear he is already out Parsing my bruiser. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>he should hes dps after all .. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] necro/conj always tops our parses ... stupid god damned procs giving them stupid amount of dps !</P> <P>nurf the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] pet classes they have been uber since lu13 so its about time they got "balanced" !!!</P> <P>(aimed at phayax !!)</P> <P><BR> </P>

[deadsidedemon]

<P>We went back to labs last night to help gear some new folks up.  Granted Labs is pretty [Removed for Content] now, but due to a lack of plate tanks logging on I had to tank the whole thing.  Only 4 healers and 16 people in the raid, but I didn't notice any major survivability issues.  Until Vyemm, anway.  He pretty much took my avoidance skills, chewed them up, and spit them out ... near constant barrage of 4-5k hits.</P> <P>I'm not trying to say how great I am (because I'll admit I'm not very good!) - I just want to reinforce the real issue here, which continues to be the uselessness of avoidance vs very high level mobs.</P> <P>And giving all fighters a 20% uncontested avoidance may be a great way to define the tanks, won't argue with that.  But that is a major, fundamental change that would affect the difficulty of existing encounters.  It would make all fighters better, so the mobs would need to be harder ... and if that happens, brawlers wouldn't have much net gain in the end.</P>

[Untalent]

To the people saying to get 100 aa's to be able to tank... I have to call BS.I'm sorry to tell you this, but just in case you haven't looked at the new achievements, there isn't jack diddly squat in which inceases our avoidance or ability to take hits any better except an increase in our mountain stance and the ghetto tsunami ability (both aren't very good imo).

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gojirax wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wow! Cool!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is great news!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey Guys! And here you were all thinking our ability to avoid and absorb damage has been gimped!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All you gotta do is be more like Wes and your problems are solved!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank goodness you came along and explained how this all works...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/em rolls happily into battle certain that he won't have his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handed to him this time... because Wes said so.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5>umm arnt you like LVL 28 ? lol</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5></FONT> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffffff size=3>true i am not asking to epci tank better then a guard. But i will like to be a better add tank then rogues and comparable add tank to other high dps fighters.<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>well with the new changes rogue tanks suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] too so we are definatly on par with them now lol <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>and yes nobody is asking to tank as well as a guard but to be on par with one would be nice ... i mean lets look at the healer class</P> <P>warden ,fury , temp , inq , defiler , mystic</P> <P>is there anyone one of them that doesnt do the job as well as the other but in a different way ? imo thats the best balance soe have in the game atm but no doubt that the healers will disagree with that statement as whatever class you are you will always get people who want to do what another does better than you .. i.e a templar will want a defilers debuffs and wards etc etc etc etc</P> <P><BR> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Really WoW because MM inner sanctum has a epic x4 raid mob specifically designed for rogue tanks. Thats 1 more then brawlers.

[Untalent]

To Gungo,I have to disagree about giving all fighters 20% avoidance right off the bat. I mean brawlers are the avoidance tanks, wouldn't it make sense that only brawlers got it? Or got the most at the least.Imo, I'd like to see something like this:30% uncontested deflection to brawlersOther fighters: screw them, honestly they can already get 20%+ to block which is uncontested. They are mitigation tanks and should be getting hit far less, not avoiding far more. If anything give them a base mit% increase.These are just bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] numbers and are by no means set in stone, but I'd like to see something like this. All of the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tanks can get their own 20% block uncontested with a shield and even increase it above 20. Shouldn't a brawler, being THE only avoidance tank have better chance than the others? The least they could do is rework our new achievement tree allowing us to increase our uncontested deflection.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <DIV>I tanked the named before clockwork menace the other night from like 98% to 0% (one shot full fabled raid guardian - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? <<<Issues) tbh avoidance etc worked better for me on that one x4 encouter then it does on heroics. Not much to go off only one encouter, however i had a log but i did a hard reset on my comp and didnt back that up so thats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My current situation i cant raid much for the next few weeks, so like i said above that one named was extremely easy imo,  weather it was a lucky streak or not idk but when i was doing it i actually thought SOE had got something right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ill start parsing some crap when im back full time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>People complaining in regards to heroics prolly dont realise that what their complaining about wasnt meant to be soloable in the first place, personally only one named im having issues with is the Portal Lady in Forsaken city, she hits like brick. But 900 rallos zek status solves that one easily :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i think everything is fine in that respect, its just crap because your used to be able to do something and now you cant, just adapt to it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although i obviously prefere pre EOF because of how easy it was to farm, it just wasnt balanced, and dispite that fact it undoubtably still isnt balanced all in all its alot better. (Thats for the ppl yapping about not being able to solo 68^^^)</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I havnt as yet seen any raiders post parses so maybe its best to start doing that, complaing about something w/o proof is one thing with it is another.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:56 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:02 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The reason why you tanked better then that guard after the initial 2%. One word DEBUFFS. In this expansion especially debuffs are HUGE. + skills, slow, dps reduction, etc. EQ2 is slowly going the route of eq1 in raids. Pretty soon we will need a weaponshielder for debuffs, before the MT engages.</P> <P>also your guards brain could of exploded if he did not have enough power.</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> deadsidedemon wrote:<BR> <P>We went back to labs last night to help gear some new folks up.  Granted Labs is pretty [Removed for Content] now, but due to a lack of plate tanks logging on I had to tank the whole thing.  Only 4 healers and 16 people in the raid, but I didn't notice any major survivability issues.  Until Vyemm, anway.  He pretty much took my avoidance skills, chewed them up, and spit them out ... near constant barrage of 4-5k hits.</P> <P>I'm not trying to say how great I am (because I'll admit I'm not very good!) - I just want to reinforce the real issue here, which continues to be the uselessness of avoidance vs very high level mobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And giving all fighters a 20% uncontested avoidance may be a great way to define the tanks, won't argue with that.  But that is a major, fundamental change that would affect the difficulty of existing encounters.  It would make all fighters better, so the mobs would need to be harder ... and if that happens, brawlers wouldn't have much net gain in the end.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Psst warriors and crusader alreayd have 20% with tower shields. The issue is brawler only recieve 12% in comparison.<BR>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Untalented wrote:<BR>To Gungo,<BR><BR>I have to disagree about giving all fighters 20% avoidance right off the bat. I mean brawlers are the avoidance tanks, wouldn't it make sense that only brawlers got it? Or got the most at the least.<BR><BR>Imo, I'd like to see something like this:<BR><BR>30% uncontested deflection to brawlers<BR>Other fighters: screw them, honestly they can already get 20%+ to block which is uncontested. They are mitigation tanks and should be getting hit far less, not avoiding far more. If anything give them a base mit% increase.<BR><BR>These are just bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] numbers and are by no means set in stone, but I'd like to see something like this. All of the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tanks can get their own 20% block uncontested with a shield and even increase it above 20. Shouldn't a brawler, being THE only avoidance tank have better chance than the others? <BR><BR>The least they could do is rework our new achievement tree allowing us to increase our uncontested deflection.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with you i would love for that to happen. fact is it wont. Another reason is increases to uncontested avodiance provides exponential gains in damage recieved. there is a huge difference in avoiding 20% compared to 30%.   We will still have more avoidnace vs most heoric and possibly adds in raids.  w uncontested deflection. So i will settle with a compromise of allowing all fighters the same uncontested avodiance. At least this way rogues will not tank better then brawlers. In the end i just want to play my brawler as i enjoyed. An add tank w dps. Take away the tank part in raids and i am just subpar dps. I am sure many high end brawlers played like i did. Where raids consisted of maybe 3-4 fighters mostly scouts, healers, casters (in that order). So while you have the MT (guard), You have the split tank/MA (zerk), the third tank would grab adds that popped or that broke off. All thes echanges did was reduce the need for addtional fighters in raid  more then ever, because now a defensive rogue would provide a better add tank w more dps and debuffs. So overall this change reduced bralwers raid effectiveness. (not saying other fighters don't have this issue particularly paladins have been up in arms about this same issue, but that is a different story. SoE needs to reevalute the role of EACH fighter in raids. Stop ignoring this plea. Go to each fighters class board and you will see the same story from the fighters complaining. What do we offer a raid.)<BR>

[Untalent]

Gungo you always offer great opinions and much incite. Why don't you try sending a message to one of the dev's again to see if they are planning anything and discuss some of our woes.

[Gungo]

<P>Imho Soe should focus all fighters into roles. The MT (guard), the ADD tank (zerker) , The support tank/MA (Paladin), The puller (monk), the melee dps group tank (bruiser), The caster dps tank (Sk).</P> <P>The Main Tank- a best single target agro tank, great recovery abilities (resuce etc), lots of self defensive buffs,(like temp mit buffs, save vs death,etc), low dps<BR>-Guard currently fills this role well<BR><BR>The Add tank- best aoe agro, snap agro, a few self defensive buffs, good aoe dps, deals w adds that spawn in raids<BR>-Zerk currently fills this role well</P> <P><BR>The Support/Main assist tank- This tank helps other tanks tank better, mit buff, wards, heals, adds agro, provides in group protection abilites, such as group heals, magic based stone skins single target buff  etc. This tank can block attacks for another person better then any other fighter. Also this tank has a prevent death single target ability that if the MT dies the paladin switches HP totals w the MT and the paladin dies. This tank also has support tank abilities like the old eq1 raid abilities to mark a target for killing, etc<BR>- Paladin should fill this role, but is currently missing alot more support abilities as in a decent block ability and a spell stoneskin other type buff.</P> <P>The Puller-This tank should have the highest incombat run speed, FD, an ability to reduce agro on surrounding encoutners, a long range non agro pulling ability, 10 sec 3 min recast immunity to aoe (even directed), a 15 sec immunity to melee every 3 min. and a 12 sec weapon shield ability (100% riposte agro lock ability.. in example mob can not change targets), good single target dps, good single target agro<BR>Monk should fill this role but is currently missing a few key ability-  as in working immunitys and agro lock and non sprint based run speed.<BR><BR>The melee tank-The best single target dps, increases melee dps of group (dps buff and group deagro melee proc),  aoe physical damage avoidance 10 sec duration 3 min recast. <BR>Bruiser- fits thsi role well a group deagro melee proc and  a group physical damage avoidance would allow them to protect melees<BR><BR>The caster tank- The best aoe dps, adds spell proc to group (increases spell dps+ lower agro), aoe spell avodiance 10 sec duration 3 min recast.<BR>Shadowknight fits this role well- increases thier dps and lowers casters agro.</P> <P>There is also room for the split tank or secondary tank- a short duration tank 1.5 minutes of being more effective and 1.5 minutes of being less effective w a 5min recast.  This tank increases his mit 10% and avoid 10% by a set amount and reduces spell damage by a set amount 20% for 1.5 minutes then the next 1.5 minutes he looses the same amount so -10/-10/-20 increasing damage. This could be a bruiser or sk imho or both. Allowing either to grab those encounter w 2 or more epic x4 named.</P> <P>These are just ideas, but it shows that tanks cna have predefined roles without stepping on each other toes as long as the developers keep their skills seperate and do not blend skills together.</P>

[Gungo]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Untalented wrote:<BR>Gungo you always offer great opinions and much incite. Why don't you try sending a message to one of the dev's again to see if they are planning anything and discuss some of our woes.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The dev that runs combat mechanics alreayd looked at our issue and made his evaluation. This dev rarely changes his stance after he makes his assessment. He has since moved onto other issues (like resisted taunts). We will not see any changes to the same mechanic. Now in order to improve the overall issue "high end avodiance tanking". We either have to wait till the next expansion when everything gets flipped around again OR focus on other mechanics, abilites, AA's that will help improve us. The reason i still post on the issue is becuase the dev team does look at feedback. So i recommend any brawlers who feel high end avodiance tanking is lacking to /feedback. Other then that switch to raid DPS focus, becuase you will benefit more to your raid then trying to be an add tank w a tanking focus. </P> <P>AA's- The dev that made the AA's has not done a post release evalution yet. So he still may change these.<BR>If i would focus on 1 issue now regarding bruiser it would be AA's.<BR>Obvious bugs include Closed mind AA requiring both Stone deaf AND Hardned skin rank 3.<BR> Drag "NOT WORKING". <BR>The Detaunt proc increasing agro (theory). <BR>The Retribution of Stone AA almsot completely ineffective (< this will help high end tankign the most if we can convince the dev in charge of AA's that 10% of deflections should proc OR 1.8PPM.  I would love if this was changed to a straight up 1.8ppm melee proc. )</P>

[DisturbedMagg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DisturbedMaggot wrote:<BR> <DIV>I tanked the named before clockwork menace the other night from like 98% to 0% (one shot full fabled raid guardian - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? <<<Issues) tbh avoidance etc worked better for me on that one x4 encouter then it does on heroics. Not much to go off only one encouter, however i had a log but i did a hard reset on my comp and didnt back that up so thats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My current situation i cant raid much for the next few weeks, so like i said above that one named was extremely easy imo,  weather it was a lucky streak or not idk but when i was doing it i actually thought SOE had got something right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ill start parsing some crap when im back full time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>People complaining in regards to heroics prolly dont realise that what their complaining about wasnt meant to be soloable in the first place, personally only one named im having issues with is the Portal Lady in Forsaken city, she hits like brick. But 900 rallos zek status solves that one easily :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i think everything is fine in that respect, its just crap because your used to be able to do something and now you cant, just adapt to it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although i obviously prefere pre EOF because of how easy it was to farm, it just wasnt balanced, and dispite that fact it undoubtably still isnt balanced all in all its alot better. (Thats for the ppl yapping about not being able to solo 68^^^)</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I havnt as yet seen any raiders post parses so maybe its best to start doing that, complaing about something w/o proof is one thing with it is another.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:56 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:02 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The reason why you tanked better then that guard after the initial 2%. One word DEBUFFS. In this expansion especially debuffs are HUGE. + skills, slow, dps reduction, etc. EQ2 is slowly going the route of eq1 in raids. Pretty soon we will need a weaponshielder for debuffs, before the MT engages.</P> <P>also your guards brain could of exploded if he did not have enough power.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Meant to put 88% not 98%, ill edit that, so debuffs etc were already on and insanity didnt kill him, he read of the dmg and type but i cant remember what he said deffiantly wasnt insanity, just one of those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up things that happens every so often, and the point of the post wasnt to state i tanked better then a guardian but on that particular instance i tanked a 74x4 epic named and my parse actually described what should be happening all the time. Again as a stated thou since my raids times have gone to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] since its xmas its the only one of two raids ive tanked in so im guessing it was more of a lucky streak then anything.