The Gutting of the Brawler Class is in my mind the single greatest nerf in EQ2 history

[Ether]

<DIV>Dusted off my 70 bruiser that I hadnt really played in quite some time, thinking I would test the new combat system. Was convinced it couldnt be as bad as people were saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me assure, they are in fact worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would have probably been fine if they had somehow made it so my efforts to take down a level 60-64 (green mind you) triple up were made very difficult and require alot more skill. However, I am now parsing incomming damage at approx 4 fold what it used to be. Thats right, not some increase in the < 50% range.. we are talking 400%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sadly, we now fulfill our status as the least desirable member of any raid force. Argue against that if you will, but seriously, what class is less needed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By all means, start a bruiser and level up if you wish, but this class used to be fun, now its a chore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Luckily at this stage in the game, most people I know have plenty of alts they would rather play. Any attempt to argue for improvements are probably not going to go as far as the Rangers (for example) succeeded with, simply because there arent many of us out there.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Etherin on <span class=date_text>11-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 AM</span>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>Apart from soloing heroic green and blue namers nothing has really changed, and pretty much no melee classes can solo them easily any more anyway so its not like brawlers have been singled out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have tanked all the new eof instances with 1 healers apart from MM and thats doable with 2 healers and have just tanked nizzara today and cleared zone with a druid/cleric combo rather than a prefered druid/shammy. So tanking wise we are not really worse off imo. (and im a monk btw so you bruisers still got it easier than me )We could still do with higher uncontested avoidance i think as 12% for fabled defense stance does not compare favourable with a plate tank and tower shield against epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS wise there is also little change, i am parsing around the same position on raids as i would expect depending what buffs i have got and can still push out some nice dps in a decent grp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im a little disapointed with our new AA line that there isnt really much exciting in it but its not bad and nothing to really complain at either imo.</DIV>

[Devast]

im pretty sure resists are just broken or soe's new curve is off the scale of reality. not just greens and blues but everything in the game is hitting for max damage and max spell damage. its pretty ridiculous, resists dont even factor in anymore.i know that none of the melee classes can solo much now. i know a brigand can still solo simply because they can kite stuff around. which i may end up trying soon enough.of course they screwed us over in the avoidance and that hurts for an avoidance tank, but i think the resists will get fixed some day. until then im just going to be a poor bruiser.<div></div>

[KnAdidas25]

I 100% agree Etherin,  My Monk is a joke in EoF.  I was switching up tanking with a Pally in Kaladim and the difference is really sad.  <div></div>

[eyes007]

<DIV>Too many threads about this issue, alot of people have warranted complaints, I do not disagree or criticize your agony but I'm one of the few bruisers who is happy with my toon. I don't know how many there are out there but I happily went with a strong tanking build and couldn't care less about the dps side of it. I never expected any changes to our class but am happy with the results.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure it's harder, I used to solo lvl70^^^heroics 69^^^heroics evne easier, but after testing it yesterday I can sense everyone's pain, definitely quite hard, the only blues i have soloed so far ar the books that attack you right at the beginning of Obelisk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adornments can help, I use a Hammer of the Dragonborn and it has +5 parry, and +5 defense, I bought me a fabled +4 defense adornment and now my hammer is +9 defense, and I'm less than 1% away from 70% avoidance again self-buffed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I'm saying is give it time, choose your adornments carefully, build your AA's and you might find that your brawler might be in the same if not better position than it used to be. Ironically as it turns out, my dps is much stronger now too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

[Tasye]

Chicken little! Chicken little!I don't know where you are getting a 400% increase in damage taken, unless SOE unfairly targetted you. <span>:smileytongue:</span>I'm taking more damage, but not a lot more, and I can still destroy green 3ups and a good number of blue 3ups, and I tanked with a Monk this morning through Obelisk, Crypt and Catacombs. It was pie. No, it was cake. It was piecake. Cakepie.<div></div>

[etch666]

<P>My DPS has gotten much worse in relation to everyone elses (this is after all aa's in Knockouts line). Due to each mobs new found avoidance skills, MY CA's and attacks miss maybe 30% of the time, making moves like 100 hand punch a waste of power. </P> <P>Its frustrating as hell so stand behind a 20ft tall epic mob (not a brawler mob), using fabled weapons and master CA's in master offensive stance and miss a big portion of the attacks. I guess its where the saying 'you couldnt hit the side of a barn' comes from.</P>

[Godsgift4040]

<DIV>Not sure how people are argueing that we are the same tank as we were before the expansion. I went a pure tank build in KoS and less dps build. I could hit 5k mitigation self buffed with vig spirit up and without potions. Now i cant hit more then 3.9k self buffed with vig spirit up. Even with full mitigation adornments u arent gonna make up the 1.1k mitigation that was lost regardless. Epic tanking doesnt come down to avoidance it comes down to mitigation (at least how soe has made them game). In this department we got gutted and there really isnt another way around it. So i have started the transition to dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Now if only our deagro moves worked a little better...</DIV>

[edyts]

Still ery happy with my bruiser.  Can tank same stuff as before....an new instances one healer as well...dps can still ge mme agg on raid if not careful so all n all im happy.  we werent the only ones nerfed, and i agree its harder to solo group  mobs.  But they were intended to be group mobs we prolly shouldnt have been able to before. <div></div>

[Owa]

<div><blockquote><hr>edyts wrote:Still ery happy with my bruiser.  Can tank same stuff as before....an new instances one healer as well...dps can still ge mme agg on raid if not careful so all n all im happy.  we werent the only ones nerfed, and i agree its harder to solo group  mobs.  But they were intended to be group mobs we prolly shouldnt have been able to before. <div></div><hr></blockquote><font face="Garamond" size="5">My Bruiser is quite a lot worse off than pre-patch. I don't understand how anyone could <i>not</i> be worse off, frankly. I can tank T7 instances OK still of course - but off-tanking is not good. If someone else has all the tank buffs and dies...well put it this way, my avoidance isn't avoiding very much, especially in raids.My DPS seems about the same I think - but in my opinion SoE [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed us.  They [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed all tanks actually - but they [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed avoidance tanks hardest. I'm not one of the hard-core raid-tanking Bruisers, but I must say I was looking forward to the expansion and the stated aim of finally making avoidance tanking a worthwhile alternative to mitigation.Dunno about you but rather than being better, I think we're worse off than at any time since launch. <i>(Still the best class though, naturally</i> <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>)</font></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etherin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Dusted off my 70 bruiser that I hadnt really played in quite some time, thinking I would test the new combat system. Was convinced it couldnt be as bad as people were saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me assure, they are in fact worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>stoped reading at that point ...... thanks for assuring us we are worse when we HAVENT benched our bruisers and kept playing them through all changes ..</P> <P>ty for your opinion though even if its wrong</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> edyts wrote:<BR>Still ery happy with my bruiser.  Can tank same stuff as before....an new instances one healer as well...dps can still ge mme agg on raid if not careful so all n all im happy.  we werent the only ones nerfed, and i agree its harder to solo group  mobs.  But they were intended to be group mobs we prolly shouldnt have been able to before.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=5>My Bruiser is quite a lot worse off than pre-patch. I don't understand how anyone could <I>not</I> be worse off, frankly. I can tank T7 instances OK still of course - but off-tanking is not good. If someone else has all the tank buffs and dies...well put it this way, my avoidance isn't avoiding very much, <FONT color=#ffff00>especially in raids.</FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=5></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffff00 size=5>/To be honest a lot of the raid zones and mobs are bugged to fek and back , it zhredder [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is he all about one version easy as cake the other totally unbeatable .. getting killed on labs trash .. im not talking about just me either when your raid MT gos down in one hit with a temp/Defiler/Warden and Mystic in 2nd group bolstering the guy ISNT right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> the whole combat system is screwed at the moment or so it seems with clearly avoidance needing the most tweaking. resists all over the shop mobs with newly aquired parry skills ? lol its a fun xpansion pack <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><FONT face=Garamond size=5></FONT></P> <DIV><BR>My DPS seems about the same I think - but in my opinion SoE [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed us.  They [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed all tanks actually - but they [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed avoidance tanks hardest. I'm not one of the hard-core raid-tanking Bruisers, but I must say I was looking forward to the expansion and the stated aim of finally making avoidance tanking a worthwhile alternative to mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/Again Dps was untouched it seems other than the resists<BR></FONT><BR>Dunno about you but rather than being better, I think we're worse off than at any time since launch.<BR><I>(Still the best class though, naturally</I><SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN>)<BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/Nahh we couldnt go back to being worse than before lu13 ! christ even back then people thought we were scouts and now we get a deaggro line woot wtg soe why not just add us to the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] rogue class !</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>WOW must have hurt your toon anna as i dont ever recall you complaining ever lol <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Hun]

Get yourself the right equipment. When EoF came out I started waering stuff, I never used in KoS. In  a tankgroup with dirge I easily reach 80% Avoidance. I still can tank the old kos-encounters like Mutagenic Outcast and also the new EoF-encounters aren't a problem.So please stop whining.<div></div>

[Tasye]

Um...improvements? Rangers? Are you kidding? I mean, are you for real? Rangers. Got Shafted. Hardcore. And. Got. Nothing. Back. Ever.I know. I was a Ranger. Don't sit there and pretend to know what's going on with classes and nerfs when you have. No. Freaking. Clue.And then you try and pout out that you are taking 400% more damage. Exsqeese me? Pudding powder? I play a Bruiser...level 70 and the most I ever got off the same mob was ...20% more damage, which is a huge amount of damage,to be sure. but *not* *the* *end**of**the**world*. I followed a Monk....a MONK that tanked Obelisk and Crypt and handled adds like *nothing* was there.Don't sit there and cry chiken little, and don't lie about taking a little bit more damage and making it out like it is the end of the world.  I don't tank end game raids and I never will, but everything this side of MM in EoF is trivial. I'm in Mastercrafted and have few Adept 3's and already the instances are 'easy' to the extent of 'boring' perhaps there's something else at work...maybe?<div></div>

[Bobby_Burning]

<P>Yeah, i don´t like the whining, too.</P> <P> But still theres a point here. I think the people complaining, are not running around in full fabled (like you enone) and are not part of a high end raiding force <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tasye wrote:<BR>Um...improvements? Rangers? Are you kidding? I mean, are you for real? Rangers. Got Shafted. Hardcore. And. Got. Nothing. Back. Ever.<BR><BR>I know. I was a Ranger. Don't sit there and pretend to know what's going on with classes and nerfs when you have. No. Freaking. Clue.<BR><BR>And then you try and pout out that you are taking 400% more damage. Exsqeese me? Pudding powder? I play a Bruiser...level 70 and the most I ever got off the same mob was ...20% more damage, which is a huge amount of damage,to be sure. but *not* *the* *end**of**the**world*. I followed a Monk....a MONK that tanked Obelisk and Crypt and handled adds like *nothing* was there.<BR><BR>Don't sit there and cry chiken little, and don't lie about taking a little bit more damage and making it out like it is the end of the world.  I don't tank end game raids and I never will, but everything this side of MM in EoF is trivial. I'm in Mastercrafted and have few Adept 3's and already the instances are 'easy' to the extent of 'boring' perhaps there's something else at work...maybe?<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is cry chicken little ? isnt that a kiddies film ??? and as for the rangers they did get a lot of improvements after they got gutted not much ofc but they didnt just get discarded and if/when they fix hawk dive problem solved for rangers<BR>

[TheSummoned]

I can still solo Poet's Palace without much difficulty. /shrug <div></div>

[Tasye]

You can believe all you want. Rangers got nothing in the end.And I just got done MT'ing a few instances. OMG! Chicken little! The sky! It's falling down!I await the fabled nerf that makes us unable to tank. Will it help if I make heavy breathing noises and cry, "Nooooo..you aren't my father!"But hey you know...if you want to believe that you suck, by all means go ahead and prove it. LOL.LOL.<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tasye wrote:<BR>You can believe all you want. Rangers got nothing in the end.<BR><BR>And I just got done MT'ing a few instances. OMG! Chicken little! The sky! It's falling down!<BR><BR>I await the fabled nerf that makes us unable to tank. Will it help if I make heavy breathing noises and cry, "Nooooo..you aren't my father!"<BR><BR>But hey you know...if you want to believe that you suck, by all means go ahead and prove it. LOL.<BR><BR>LOL.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>im still lost lol !</P> <P> </P> <P>and rangers did get love <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[ganjookie]

when did we start talking or caring about rangers from keynos?<div></div>

[Rayche]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR>when did we start talking or caring about rangers from keynos?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wow Ganjookie, I think that's the closest to being on topic of a post that I've EVER seen you! :smileysurprised:</P> <P> </P> <P>*Hands Ganjookie a cookie.*</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gojirax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR>when did we start talking or caring about rangers from keynos?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wow Ganjookie, I think that's the closest to being on topic of a post that I've EVER seen you! :smileysurprised:</P> <P> </P> <P>*Hands Ganjookie a cookie.*</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>rofl i just spilt my coffee <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR>when did we start talking or caring about rangers from keynos?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>WE dont I do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> my little hobby toon atm is a ikkle ranger <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Dak]

<P>I know when LU 24 came out, and I wasa playing my Dirge (lvl 51) I had been soloing in Prophets Peak, but after I could not even solo anywhere in SS anymore without support. Dirges unlike the Bruisers and other fighters had to be played very carefully as you out survived your opponent and did not out dps them, nor had the armor to protect yourself with. Bruisers as all fighters had the hps to take a lot of hits and attacks that did more damage, Dirges relied on Lifetaps and debuffs to solo, and with 2 debuffs nerfed, and 2 main (one being our only nuke) nerfed, it was extreamely hard to do anything against an even lvl to your toon.</P> <P>Atleast with the mages their roots stopped the opponents and not gave them a free maxed attack on you, and the daze is such a joke, I still have not figured out what benefit it has...</P> <P>Daze, opponent can attack, cast, and move freely, without limitations or effects...</P> <P>So you can still deliver some decent attacks and fight those equal to yourself...</P> <P> </P>

[ganjookie]

1. Sorry abot the coffee2. I try once a month to say something on topic<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR>1. Sorry abot the coffee<BR><BR>2. I try once a month to say something on topic<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>how did you ever get to 4963 posts ? [Removed for Content]

[ganjookie]

<div></div>well...I post stuff not on topic.then on one randomly chossen golden perfeCt day, I sit down at my keyboards (sans coffee stains), and review the threads avilable to post on.  I create a speadsheet and remove threads that I dont know anything about, that leaves me usually with 1 thread out of 50,000 I can make my knowledgeable response, which is what happened earlier.the rest of my posts are random spouts from my generator**added a C in perfect**<div></div><p>Message Edited by ganjookie on <span class=date_text>11-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 PM</span>

[Ether]

<blockquote><hr>Tasye wrote:Chicken little! Chicken little!<br><br>I don't know where you are getting a 400% increase in damage taken, unless SOE unfairly targetted you. <span>:smileytongue:</span><br><br>I'm taking more damage, but not a lot more, and I can still destroy green 3ups and a good number of blue 3ups, and I tanked with a Monk this morning through Obelisk, Crypt and Catacombs. It was pie. No, it was cake. It was piecake. Cakepie.<br><div></div><hr></blockquote>Tasye,Perhaps you need an aspirin, but I presume something like haloperidol would help more.Here's a tip. Download advanced combat tracker. Its really easy to find on the web, even for somebody with your intelligence. Come back after you have done some tests and perhaps you will be less inclined to over-use LOL in your future posts.

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR> well...I post stuff not on topic.<BR><BR>then on one randomly chossen golden perfeCt day, I sit down at my keyboards (sans coffee stains), and review the threads avilable to post on.  I create a speadsheet and remove threads that I dont know anything about, that leaves me usually with 1 thread out of 50,000 I can make my knowledgeable response, which is what happened earlier.<BR><BR>the rest of my posts are random spouts from my generator<BR><BR>**added a C in perfect**<BR> <P>Message Edited by ganjookie on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:44 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>haha im going to have to try that to confuse ppl !<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>like when ppl say brusiers cant tank my response will be .. its warm today though</P>

[ganjookie]

yes, your correct on that!I'd also like to add that some coffee is really hot compared to deer....most of the timebeefcakeBEEFCAKE<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV>and the pie is better than cheese too</DIV>

[ganjookie]

<div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div>and the pie is better than cheese too</div><hr></blockquote>AGREED!</div>