its not just me we really have been gimped?

[djinnz]

<DIV>70 full aa raiding bruiser fabled, al masters</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>post expansion seems every combat art is less effective every mob hits me harder and more consistantly, my taunts dont land as well as they did. im basically half the tank i was, dps i can get by, but tanking in my duo against even heroics is just awful. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is that what other high end bruisers are seeing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[DisturbedMagg]

Im missing kidney pucnch and shake off m1 apart from that same as you and im completly screwed ovr compared to pre EOF

[DisturbedMagg]

<DIV>O yea and avoidance is apprently working better against mobs now. <STRONG><U><EM>APPRENTLY</EM></U></STRONG></DIV>

[Zendi_Perma]

<DIV>I haven't tried by duoing/trioing setup yet, but I definitely take WAY more damage solo.    I haven't parsed DPS much.    I have already respecced to the final ability in the INT line for more mit and crit when 30% or below health since I will apparently be spending much more time in that condition....</DIV>

[BigRed1]

<P>I am the same as you guys T7 raiding bruiser etc etc.. I have tanked most T7 several Epic mobs in KoS, I put together a group and headed to MM castle and procceded to take beating after beating! My taunts didnt seem to be grabbing the mobs, and the mobs where ripping me apart..they were hitting me fast and often ..I didnt seem to be avoideing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. After several whipes at pretty much the front of the zone we left. The group consisted of:</P> <P>Bruiser </P> <P>Temp</P> <P>Troub</P> <P>Assassin</P> <P>Swashie</P> <P>Inq.</P> <P>not the greatest setup for a bruiser tank but all the members were fully fabled and mastered out! We went to the Crypt next while this was much easier I was still taking over the top dmg from the mobs in there.  Pre EoF I could pretty much tank any group content with one healer..any type of healer with no problem. I dont see being able to tank EoF with less than two healers!</P> <P>For an expansion that was supposed to bring us upto par tanking it seems to have fallen fall short of that. At first impression of EoF it reminds me of the big EQ1 nerf to monks with AA's were they dropped our skills and to get back to our original abilities we had to get all the AA!</P> <P> </P>

[eyes007]

<P>Well, I don't see much problem with blues and greens, they go down fairly easy. However, I saw some spike damage from whites, not huge but enough that you saw it in your health pool. Those mobs in mistmoore castle are pretty exciting, a group of three with one 3up, and 2 2ups, all yellow -is what you generally see. The singles are pretty easy for a full group, I was told earlier that an inquisitor friend went in there with a guard and 2 healers and the rest dps, and it's still pretty rough. I don't think we have to worry too much about bruisers only feeling the hurt, my good friend is a fabled guardian and with a single healer he was being pressed hard. The zone is pretty tough even for the experienced, training seems slightly better now, you see your health go down alot slower so you don't have to worry about spike dmg.</P> <P>In all, I'd say I'm satisfied. My avoidance is back up to over 70% again after a nice +3deflection neck piece that dropped in mistmoore catacombs, I'l use that for tanking and the MOA for dps.</P>

[Supp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigRed1 wrote:<BR> <P>I am the same as you guys T7 raiding bruiser etc etc.. I have tanked most T7 several Epic mobs in KoS, I put together a group and headed to MM castle and procceded to take beating after beating! My taunts didnt seem to be grabbing the mobs, and the mobs where ripping me apart..they were hitting me fast and often ..I didnt seem to be avoideing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. After several whipes at pretty much the front of the zone we left. The group consisted of:</P> <P>Bruiser </P> <P>Temp</P> <P>Troub</P> <P>Assassin</P> <P>Swashie</P> <P>Inq.</P> <P>not the greatest setup for a bruiser tank but all the members were fully fabled and mastered out! We went to the Crypt next while this was much easier I was still taking over the top dmg from the mobs in there.  Pre EoF I could pretty much tank any group content with one healer..any type of healer with no problem. I dont see being able to tank EoF with less than two healers!</P> <P>For an expansion that was supposed to bring us upto par tanking it seems to have fallen fall short of that. <FONT color=#0099ff>At first impression of EoF it reminds me of the big EQ1 nerf to monks with AA's were they dropped our skills and to get back to our original abilities we had to get all the AA!</FONT></P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#cccccc>I never played EQ1, but I have a friend who did, and when I described what was happening he mentioned a megonerf to monks. I forgot to ask if the imbalance was ever corrected. In this case, he was describing how SOE resolved an 18lb weight limit issue by releasing low weight, high AC, good stat gear. Monks were tanking better than warriors, and so SOE did some nerf that crippled them.</FONT><p>Message Edited by Supple on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:05 PM</span>

[djinnz]

<P>no supple it was never reverted, back when monkly buiness was the by far the most popular monk message board, they had a section for just posts about the nerf, when they finally locked it and archived it, there was some amazing amount of posts in it. like 10'000 or somthing silly.</P> <P> </P> <P>the out cry was huge and persistant, there was pertitions, sit ins, parses, swearing....... well just about every possible argument you could think of made, but soe barely ever responded let alone change anything</P>

[Zaviur]

<DIV>You forgot the fact that the lead guy said several months later that monks were not "that broken."  Yet they left the issue unfixed from pop until this eq2 came out so maybe 2 years was it?  It was all rumared to have started when the guild leader caused an uproar because some monk tanked mob x and did a pretty good job at it.  He was trying to get them to fix warriors or plate classes and instead got monks nerffed right before PoP release.  After PoP a lot of raiding warriors were able to wear plate and dps at or above the level of monks.  Kinda Sick if you ask me.</DIV>

[heelena]

<P>i was yesterday in obelisk and crypt</P> <P>the inc. damage i could manage (serveral 2 grouped yellow trippel ups should hit) but the AGRO! OMG!</P> <P>and the end i was disapointet, even the lvl 64 wizzi grabbed the agro off me like there is none. that was </P> <P>the hardest tanking i had for a long time.... lots of work... AGRO NO`CONTROL</P> <P> </P> <P>lg</P> <P>shifter</P>

[Thail]

<div></div>I vote gimped. There is just no way we can take a mit reduction on our gear. SOE you cant make the game work for avoidance tanks. Give it up. When you take away mit (yes, just like every other class) you screwed us x's 2. Plain and simple. It wasn't this bad in beta.  But whatever we are brawlers who cares right?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Thail on <span class=date_text>11-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 AM</span>

[Tasye]

I certainly take more damage, but I don't really care because it's manageable. My Bruiser is 70, in only mastercrafted and without a single Adept3 or Master 1 and I was still able to solo the vamps in MM for the Rallos cloak...not a big deal, but I'm not unhappy with the changes.<div></div>

[AaronSnow]

<DIV>Aggro control really sucks now. Will anyone want us to be MT anymore?</DIV>

[Gungo]

In groups go mid stance the loss of skills in defensive is to much without a warden. Midstance is well for all group play. The issue is the +melee skills.

[chOgg]

<div><blockquote><hr>BigRed1 wrote:<div></div><p>...</p><p>For an expansion that was supposed to bring us upto par tanking it seems to have fallen fall short of that. At first impression of EoF it reminds me of the big EQ1 nerf to monks with AA's were they dropped our skills and to get back to our original abilities we had to get all the AA!</p> <hr></blockquote>Actually, I think we are now on par to the other tanks.  They're having an extremely hard time tanking things now that were easy before.  Go see the combat forum.  There's many threads on how raiding and soloing has become so difficult that people are wondering what to do now.  I personally think Sony will see that things are screwed up and at least un-screw things a little bit.Thoral, 64 Bruiser, Mistmoore</div>

[Gungo]

Yes and no. I play both a bruiser and guard fully fabled. While green/blue/white heroics and soloing is basically harder it is balanced. The problem compounds on us when we fight yellow-orange heroic named and epics. We really are getting just flat out massacred. 2 consecutive hits for 5-6k+. even when kept up our avoidance is not avoiding. That MT hits 10% less avoid and about 6-8% more base mitigation. The mitigation curve is huge so its hard to see the % increase. The avodiance is really the issue. even w 10% less avoidance thier avodiance is alot more effective. Avoidance is getting reduced tremendously by mobs skill checks/levels. Block thier version of deflection is not reduced by combat skills. When they include the portion of deflection to not scale then the brawlers should be more in line to high end tanking although still not recommended as 6-8% base mitigation is a very huge difference now and not only that a guards skill set is more tank oriented (ToS, sphere, 2 mitgation buffs, reenforcemnts, etc) We will never be the preferred MT and we shouldn't be really. But we should be able to tank effectivly if needed. With the destruction of avodiance on live that is not the case.

[BigRed1]

<P>Went back to MM last night with a slightly altered group:</P> <P>Bruiser, Temp, Fury, Brig, Swashie and Trub. We did much better with this setup, I believe a large part of that is because the healing of the fury worked well in keeping me up until the big Templar heals could hit. That being said the damage I was taking was still over the top, several of the group encounters I was bouncing from green to orange and back and forth until we killed one or two of the mobs.  </P> <P>I have read people saying they have no problems so I took the same group and ran to afew other zones. Kaladim<spelling> we had a nice mix of mobs from green up to white con, single arrow to tripple arrow up. Anything of even con or below..an easy fight it seems ..we were pulling multiple triple up white con mobs at a time and I was not taking near the dmg.  The yellow con mobs in the Crypt instance zone didnt seem to be on the same scale as the ones in MM either.  </P> <P>Another issue I have noticed that seems to be constant through all the zones I have been in so far is teh mobs stun alot ..I cant count the times when I had to bud pull that I got stunned had to remove it myself cause it dosent show up as dot and then recover the agro. Also healers seem to be pulling more "hate" since EoF, the Templar I have been grouping with is pulling agro like Shaman used to with prewards. </P> <P>One last issue is dots, I cant speak of this first hand because my custom UI has been down since EoF went live and I am not putting the effort into default to set it up..just waiting for updates on my Custom. The healers were saying that the dots in MM were being slammed on almost faster than they could remove and they were coming from a wide range of resists, from a single multi mob encounter.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[BigRed1]

<DIV>Almost forgot to add with the same group we went to the Catacombs off LP, and took out an epicx2..blue I think might have been green I cant remember..it was at the top of the asscent straight out from zone in, looked like one of those funky deformed bat/bug things that are flying around everywhere. The point here is that even an Epic x2 is an easier fight than the Yellow con mobs in MM.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by BigRed1 on <span class=date_text>11-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[BigRed1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Yes and no. I play both a bruiser and guard fully fabled. While green/blue/white heroics and soloing is basically harder it is balanced. The problem compounds on us when we fight yellow-orange heroic named and epics. We really are getting just flat out massacred. 2 consecutive hits for 5-6k+. even when kept up our avoidance is not avoiding. That MT hits 10% less avoid and about 6-8% more base mitigation. The mitigation curve is huge so its hard to see the % increase. The avodiance is really the issue. even w 10% less avoidance thier avodiance is alot more effective. Avoidance is getting reduced tremendously by mobs skill checks/levels. Block thier version of deflection is not reduced by combat skills. When they include the portion of deflection to not scale then the brawlers should be more in line to high end tanking although still not recommended as 6-8% base mitigation is a very huge difference now and not only that a guards skill set is more tank oriented (ToS, sphere, 2 mitgation buffs, reenforcemnts, etc) <STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>We will never be the preferred MT and we shouldn't be really</FONT></STRONG>. But we should be able to tank effectivly if needed. With the destruction of avodiance on live that is not the case.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with that. A guard is always going to be the preferred tank for raids. It is fun to step in and tank here or there ..but I didnt role my bruiser with the idea of being a main raid tank. I think it is safe to say that no one roled a bruiser with that in mind. However they need to fix the fact that group content is beating on us to the point where I need to build a raid MT group just to do a group zone.<BR>

[VelocityW]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by VelocityWiz on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[Blindrage]

<DIV>I am a lvl 68 bruiser in most all player crafted gear, some legendary, with all M1 or AD3 spells.  Last night was my first time playing since the expantion.  I did notice that I was getting HAMMERED even in "defensive" against lvl 59^^^s(Ifound the mid stance to provide more of a defensive benefit than defensive) when I was running through Lower Faydark.  I also noticed that my DPS had increased quite a bit when in a group with fury+inq+troub.  I was able to pull off a steady 800 and sometimes a 1400.  I was using a Staff of the Flapping wing with 650STR.  My normal hit was probably in the 900 range, with crits as high as 2000.  I don't have crit AA maxxed yet because until two days ago I was using fists.  I am going to respect and choose WIS/INT/STA line with STR itself maxxed for my AAs.  I don't really care so much about my ability to tank as I am going DPS bruiser, but I did notice a huge drop in performance in tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this info help someone.</DIV>

[Cocytus]

<P>I'm annoyed at the mit/avoidance hit but honestly? I haven't had a very difficult time. I can still duo most anything with 1 healer. And I can solo all the same stuff I could before, heroics included.</P> <P> </P> <P>/shrugs</P> <P><BR>ACTUAL groups where I'm tanking are annoying, because I can't mass pull the same way I used to, but doing/soloing is the same.</P>

[Devast]

well im honestly not all that unhappy. i would like to see avoidance fixed. 60% just doesnt seem to work like 60%. mass pulling groups of blues and greens is just not possible. i gained 4% mit from eof and los about 8% avoidance. but now i just get owned by multiple mobs. im not sure if avoidance is just meant to be not very effective anymore, but if its meant to work the same then 60% is not working the way it should.<div></div>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> VelocityWiz wrote:<BR> Actually I think I'm tanking better, before the expansion I wasn't able to tank nizzari fully and now I can.  Also I wasn't able to do labs with one group like we can now.  I just think that all these nerfs caused balance.  I don't see one class better than another at tanking now.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face=Garamond size=5>You tank Labs with one group? Our fully-fabled Guardian can't tank Labs with one group and neither can any of our Bruisers - all of whom are better geared than you, I believe. What's your secret?</FONT>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cocytus wrote:<BR> <P>I'm annoyed at the mit/avoidance hit but honestly? I haven't had a very difficult time. I can still duo most anything with 1 healer. And I can solo all the same stuff I could before, heroics included.</P> <P> </P> <P>/shrugs</P> <P><BR>ACTUAL groups where I'm tanking are annoying, because I can't mass pull the same way I used to, but doing/soloing is the same.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face=Garamond size=5>Not so for the Bruisers in my guild. We've noticed a big difference in soloing, grouping and raiding - and the yellow grouped double-up vampires in Castle Mistmoore are a nightmare. Why so many mobs in EoF have stuns/roots/stifles etc I don't know - but I hope the devs change it. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=5>Plus, while I'm bleating about stuff, what the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is up with effectively giving everyone safe-fall?</FONT></P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> VelocityWiz wrote:<BR> Actually I think I'm tanking better, before the expansion I wasn't able to tank nizzari fully and now I can.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Also I wasn't able to do labs with one group like we can now</FONT>.  I just think that all these nerfs caused balance.  I don't see one class better than another at tanking now.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yea ok

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cocytus wrote:<BR> <P>I'm annoyed at the mit/avoidance hit but honestly? I haven't had a very difficult time. I can still duo most anything with 1 healer. And I can solo all the same stuff I could before, heroics included.</P> <P> </P> <P>/shrugs</P> <P><BR>ACTUAL groups where I'm tanking are annoying, because I can't mass pull the same way I used to, but doing/soloing is the same.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face=Garamond size=5>Not so for the Bruisers in my guild. We've noticed a big difference in soloing, grouping and raiding - and the yellow grouped double-up vampires in Castle Mistmoore are a nightmare. Why so many mobs in EoF have stuns/roots/stifles etc I don't know - but I hope the devs change it. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffff33 size=5>/Most if not all the guys in my guild are reporting HUGE resists from mobs etc etc and yes along with the stuns/roots/stifes hehe makes it fun fun ! </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffff33 size=5>tbh dont be concerned just yet they nurfed abilitys and gave aa's to improve the abilitys to be superior than they were before once you put the aa's into them .... basically the devs were too lasy to recalcualte so just reduced abilitys gave the aa's and said there u go .... go get them and your back to normal /meh :O</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=5>Plus, while I'm bleating about stuff, what the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is up with effectively giving everyone safe-fall?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=5></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffff00 size=5>/Agreed ! feks me off the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mages survive now !!!!!</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Madmoon]

<DIV>I hear how a lot of bruisers are complaining about being nerfed, but then using Mistmoore as proof.  They said over and over that EoF dungeons would be <EM>much</EM> harder than DoF or KoS.  I would like to hear more from Bruisers that regularly worked PoA or even SoS, and their impression, pre- and post-.  Myself, the changes seem subtle, but then I solo a lot or work with the same group often, so I do not think I would be a good barometer.</DIV>

[wesblueeyes]

<P>Like others I am fabled out, masters out the yin, and pretty much top end bruiser. This is what I have found.</P> <P> </P> <P>So far I have found that our dps abilities are on par or slightly higher with the right AA than previously. Taunting may be harder with the taunts because they are resisted more, but I have found this to be true with ALL other fighters. Hell crusaders cant hold aggro to save their lives now. I have done some groups with our guild zerker/guardian and even they are complaining how often their master+ level taunts are getting resisted.</P> <P>As for avoidance I have seen that as long as the mob is 70 or less avoidance for me is working great, but as soon as the mob is 71+ I feel like I did before EoF. As for getting tore up guys, the mobs hit a lot harder now after the changes. so basically mitigation is more important now...yay. Anyways it is not that we got gimped, it is that the changes in the game make us feel that way. </P> <P>A fix for this is to change Deflection skill to be like Block on shields, another words change it where mobs of higher level, arrowed up cant lower the Deflection skill and hit us easier. This is true for Block but not Deflection =/ Also if they found a way to make taunt land more often on mobs that would help out all fighters, not just us.</P>

[Serpentine]

<DIV>Vote gimped</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 60 Bruiser .. im 4 4 8 8 in the strength line atm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In full defensive mode I was having trouble with even level conned mobs.  At least the ones in EoF.</DIV> <DIV>Green single ^^^ level 50 heroic mobs are a handfull and ive died a few times.  I have top end gear but nothing really fabled.</DIV> <DIV>I am putting out the same if not more DPS but the spike damage is off the chart.  I have to use my heal at least once every fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways .. thats what i see so far.</DIV>

[Isabelle]

Hey my bruiser still tanks better than my wizard! <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> <div></div>

[Devast]

I have a 68 well mastered and adept 3's bruiser with nearly all legendary gear and str/int line. 4/4/8 str, 4/4/8 int, 4/4/5 sta so far. pre-eof i had no problem tanking multiple groups of greens/blues or just even a single group. after eof one healer has a hard time keeping me alive. i was in poa last night and pre-eof when I was able to tank even cons and yellows pretty well now its a fight for my life. tanking the upper level stuff as a bruiser with only 1 healer is out of the question for a bruiser. we brought in a 70 guardian who was fairly well geared in legendary, some fabled, and good jewelry. you dont need to be fully fabled etc. to tank poa, but he was getting his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] beat with us only having 1 healer.tanks lost a lot of mit, but they gained some avoidance.pre-eof i had around 70% avoidance depending on how far into a level i was and buff with defensive stance. after eof i have around 60% with defensive stance. I gained 4% melee resist from eof and lost about 300 mit. why does 60% avoidance seem to have nearly no effect? its like im tanking with my base 35% or so which is nearly what a healer might have. we are avoidance tanks and i am getting hit far too often with 60%. im getting my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handed to me by a group of green con heroics...other people have been saying how avoidance is not checking the values correctly and i agree. i have no proof, but unless they neglected to tell us that avoidance is severely not as effective as it was before, it is not working correctly. there is no way a loss of 5-10% avoidance should mean i am getting hit as much as I currently am. the fighting is definately way more difficult, and i can only imagine how difficult endgame raiding and eof dungeons must be with all this stuff not working as intended or them sneaking one by us.anyone else seem to notice that they are getting owned from such a small loss of avoidance?<div></div>

[JonnyBlaaze]

<DIV>Anyone know why the hell they nerfed backwards running? Its really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing annoying to get attacked while running, my character auto turns and Im suddenly running 1 mph.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wesblueeyes wrote:<BR> <P>Like others I am fabled out, masters out the yin, and pretty much top end bruiser. This is what I have found.</P> <P> </P> <P>So far I have found that our dps abilities are on par or slightly higher with the right AA than previously. Taunting may be harder with the taunts because they are resisted more, but I have found this to be true with ALL other fighters. Hell crusaders cant hold aggro to save their lives now. I have done some groups with our guild zerker/guardian and even they are complaining how often their master+ level taunts are getting resisted.</P> <P>As for avoidance I have seen that as long as the mob is 70 or less avoidance for me is working great, but as soon as the mob is 71+ I feel like I did before EoF. As for getting tore up guys, the mobs hit a lot harder now after the changes. so basically mitigation is more important now...yay. Anyways it is not that we got gimped, it is that the changes in the game make us feel that way. </P> <P>A fix for this is to change Deflection skill to be like Block on shields, another words change it where mobs of higher level, arrowed up cant lower the Deflection skill and hit us easier. This is true for Block but not Deflection =/ Also if they found a way to make taunt land more often on mobs that would help out all fighters, not just us.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree with the above poster. And lockeye told me he is checking into the avodiance not checking skill issue and is placing a portion of deflection into uncontested. The changes that come from that should allow us to be acceptable tanks. Not to say it won't still suck to tank. It surely will but at least we will be able to tank high lvl content w extreme focus on tanking. Also i am trying to bring up the reissted taunt issue. Since Taunts are treated as a spell we as fighters should have +disruption to lower the resist rate an additional 20% to help. </P> <P>I am defintely going to focus on my tanking AA's more. Like dropping the final int ability and going for full deflection and parry when deflection gets fixed. Taking brell for the 10 minute mitigation buff. And reevaluating gear to be extremely mitigation/skill focused. We will see i am sure we have more changes coming.</P>

[deadsidedemon]

<P>I'm not having any issues tanking, and neither is my Monk wife ... so not real sure what the hubbub is about.</P> <P> </P>

[Cocytus]

<P>I am not noticing HUGE differences, but small ones....annoying moreso than stopping me from doing anything. Also, yeah...EOF is alot harder than KOS...so.</P> <P> </P> <P>I've been gauging old/new in KOS zones.</P>

[gelinx]

I don't know about canceling an account over these changes. C'mon now, you shouldn't be soloing heroics anyways. Thats why under the mob con it says "Encounter was made for a group of 3 or more".  It does not mean one person with decent gear.   They did make it harder to train fd through a zone, but it is not impossible. Avoidance tanking hasn't gone down that much, and when we start getting some of the better gear EoF offers as well as the new tree, we should be even better than before. The reason they tuned everyone down including the mobs was to promote greater growth to make up for the fact that the level cap was not raised with this expansion.  I've been playing my bruiser for quite a while now, and have experienced our peak of uberness. I also experienced some of the nerfage given to us such as the mez nerf, increasing recast time of self heal, and more recently savage bruising nerf. But none so far has been class breaking, we are still badass. And as a recent poster stated, it hasn't been long since the expansion has been released. They still have much to tweak. P.S. Btw I am also a raiding bruiser working on getting my other Calamity > < <div></div>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> gelinx wrote:<BR>I don't know about canceling an account over these changes. C'mon now, you shouldn't be soloing heroics anyways. Thats why under the mob con it says "Encounter was made for a group of 3 or more".  It does not mean one person with decent gear.   They did make it harder to train fd through a zone, but it is not impossible. Avoidance tanking hasn't gone down that much, and when we start getting some of the better gear EoF offers as well as the new tree, we should be even better than before. The reason they tuned everyone down including the mobs was to promote greater growth to make up for the fact that the level cap was not raised with this expansion.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00> I've been playing my bruiser for quite a while now, and have experienced our peak of uberness. I also experienced some of the nerfage given to us such as the mez nerf, increasing recast time of self heal, and more recently savage bruising nerf. But none so far has been class breaking, we are still badass. And as a recent poster stated, it hasn't been long since the expansion has been released. They still have much to tweak.<BR></FONT><BR>P.S. Btw I am also a raiding bruiser working on getting my other Calamity > <<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=5>Agree entirely. Anyone who quits over Bruiser nerfs isn't really Bruiser material anyway. We got through the other nerfs just fine and we'll do the same with these. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=5>PS. I'm still really [Removed for Content] off about safefall for everyone though</FONT>...:smileymad:</P>

[Valkea]

Here's my experiences post expansion:Tanking - Taunts are being resisted all over the place but I find myself to be holding aggro via DPS better than other fighter classes. However, I'm also getting hit harder and more frequently than before. Mobs are also parrying/blocking attacks much more frequently. DPSing - I was in a group this evening in Vardoon's where a 'zerker was tanking. 8/10 mobs I pulled aggro off him, no doubt from the taunt resists. I did not have rumble or any buffs on increasing my threat. I even slowed down on the dpsing and CAs and still pulled aggro. It was pretty much a mess. I find myself boggled as to what our role is even more so post-expansion. While I'm having fun with the new content, when I think about the differences now it makes me rather grumpy about my class. If I go DPS, I no doubt pull aggro and possibly die due to being hit much harder. If I tank, I may hold aggro better than other fighters but I'm getting smacked around much harder. <div></div>

[Cisgo]

<P> Since playing the monk/bruiser class since EQ1 beta I have seen many "adjustments" to class. Usually don't complain, I understand why they are done and accept it. But, last nite my bruiser (lvl 70 fabled ,bla bla) attempted to run through a small group of green mobs (maybe lvl. 65 or so) and I was smoked. I died because I never pay attention to my health bar when I run through green. But, I dropped very fast, and have come to the conclusion (not just with this incident, but with playing last few days, as well as compairing with EoF beta bruiser testing), that the avoidance needs some work. At mid 60's avoidance I am getting hit way too much for that number. Esp. the lower con mobs having very high strike rate against my avoidance.  Alot of the other changes I felt were in order to keep a balance with our new AA abilities and such, but this avoidance is pretty rough at the moment.</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cisgo wrote:<BR> <P> Since playing the monk/bruiser class since EQ1 beta I have seen many "adjustments" to class. Usually don't complain, I understand why they are done and accept it. But, last nite my bruiser (lvl 70 fabled ,bla bla) attempted to run through a small group of green mobs (maybe lvl. 65 or so) and I was smoked. I died because I never pay attention to my health bar when I run through green. But, I dropped very fast, and have come to the conclusion (not just with this incident, but with playing last few days, as well as compairing with EoF beta bruiser testing), that the avoidance needs some work. At mid 60's avoidance I am getting hit way too much for that number. Esp. the lower con mobs having very high strike rate against my avoidance.  Alot of the other changes I felt were in order to keep a balance with our new AA abilities and such, but this avoidance is pretty rough at the moment.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>agreed avoidance check seems broken atm and gungo said lockeye is "looking into it" so i would expect a little news soon enough from our good friend moorguard when he pops by :smileywink:

[deadsidedemon]

Avoidance check has always been broken, or at least poorly designed.  I'm glad they finally decided it important enough to do some analysis on.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cisgo wrote:<BR> <P> Since playing the monk/bruiser class since EQ1 beta I have seen many "adjustments" to class. Usually don't complain, I understand why they are done and accept it. But, last nite my bruiser (lvl 70 fabled ,bla bla) attempted to run through a small group of green mobs (maybe lvl. 65 or so) and I was smoked. I died because I never pay attention to my health bar when I run through green. But, I dropped very fast, and have come to the conclusion (not just with this incident, but with playing last few days, as well as compairing with EoF beta bruiser testing), that the avoidance needs some work. At mid 60's avoidance I am getting hit way too much for that number. Esp. the lower con mobs having very high strike rate against my avoidance.  Alot of the other changes I felt were in order to keep a balance with our new AA abilities and such, but this avoidance is pretty rough at the moment.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>agreed avoidance check seems broken atm and gungo said lockeye is "looking into it" so i would expect a little news soon enough from our good friend moorguard when he pops by :smileywink:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Moorgard is gone bud and lockeye posted what we talked about today.

[Tasye]

<div><blockquote><hr>BigRed1 wrote:<div></div> <p>Went back to MM last night with a slightly altered group:</p> <p>Bruiser, Temp, Fury, Brig, Swashie and Trub. We did much better with this setup, I believe a large part of that is because the healing of the fury worked well in keeping me up until the big Templar heals could hit. That being said the damage I was taking was still over the top, several of the group encounters I was bouncing from green to orange and back and forth until we killed one or two of the mobs.  </p> <p>I have read people saying they have no problems so I took the same group and ran to afew other zones. Kaladim<spelling> we had a nice mix of mobs from green up to white con, single arrow to tripple arrow up. Anything of even con or below..an easy fight it seems ..we were pulling multiple triple up white con mobs at a time and I was not taking near the dmg.  The yellow con mobs in the Crypt instance zone didnt seem to be on the same scale as the ones in MM either.  </p> <p>Another issue I have noticed that seems to be constant through all the zones I have been in so far is teh mobs stun alot ..I cant count the times when I had to bud pull that I got stunned had to remove it myself cause it dosent show up as dot and then recover the agro. Also healers seem to be pulling more "hate" since EoF, the Templar I have been grouping with is pulling agro like Shaman used to with prewards. </p> <p>One last issue is dots, I cant speak of this first hand because my custom UI has been down since EoF went live and I am not putting the effort into default to set it up..just waiting for updates on my Custom. The healers were saying that the dots in MM were being slammed on almost faster than they could remove and they were coming from a wide range of resists, from a single multi mob encounter. </p><hr></blockquote>MM is beyond nuts. Being a tank beyond the Foyer is off limits to me due to my gear. We wiped several time with a tank in fabled and threw our gloves in, this with a cleric and a druid healing. I tried tanking when our mt went down and I was utterly ineffective. I guess this zone is designed for groups in fully fabled and masters...something to look forward to <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We went to The Obelisk and the Crypt and had a pretty easy go of it. I found that I could do a decent job OT'ing and MT'ing on occasion without worry.I can live without the stuns. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span></div>

[Devast]

could someone post a link of where the dev's are discussing the avoidance issue at hand?<div></div>

[l00t]

<P>It sounds like its Gungos backroom talks with someone at SOE.</P> <P> </P> <P>found a link, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117505" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117505</A></P> <P>also more here, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117135" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117135</A></P> <P>Message Edited by l00t on <SPAN class=date_text>11-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:36 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by l00t on <span class=date_text>11-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> l00t wrote:<BR> <P>It sounds like its Gungos backroom talks with someone at SOE.</P> <P> </P> <P>found a link, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117505" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117505</A></P> <P>also more here, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117135" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117135</A></P> <P>Message Edited by l00t on <SPAN class=date_text>11-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:36 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by l00t on <SPAN class=date_text>11-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:39 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Pretty much whatever Pm's i talked about is posted here. Nothing crazy

[FXDXArien]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Prior to EOF I never had a problem holding aggro for groups.  (mostly mastered)  Now ran through Obelisk and I kept losing aggro to the templar....a fricking templar.  I was so frustrated.  The next day my husband tanks it instead of me on his monk...same thing.  He kept losing aggro to the templar.  They were told not to throw reactives up etc.  So not sure what is happening there but it sure is disheartening.  :smileysad:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Ari 70 Bruiser</FONT> </DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>agreed avoidance check seems broken atm and gungo said lockeye is "looking into it" so i would expect a little news soon enough from our good friend moorguard when he pops by :smileywink:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Moorgard is gone bud and lockeye posted what we talked about today.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Woot ! nooooooooooo whos gonna pop by and chat to us now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Cocytus]

I was told two days ago that legendary/fabled mix monks are tanking epics better than fully fabled berserkers. I'd like to test this, as bruisers are better thanks than monks.

[Gungo]

<P>Heresay is a funny thing.</P> <P>Find a player/guild saying a brawler is a better tank. It won't happen. As a bruiser who did/does tank epics it is not true. On another note the tanking changes are coming. Now i got to get retribution of stone changed from riposte % to deflection %. So it can benefit from a greater consistency of an uncontested roll vs harder mobs. </P>

[Rezzonico]

<DIV>NGE is coming here too  :smileyvery-happy: !!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>they nerfed everything....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know how people are so sure to say: </DIV> <DIV>"I play better now, i can tank green, blue heroics well in solo"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dammit...maibe most of you play 24/7 and got all fabled, but there's also people that pay a fee to play just 2-3 hours per day, and wants enjoy  in solo sometime by crushing the green and blue mobs without any problem.... everyone must enjoy.</DIV> <DIV>The Equip makes the difference, but everything has a limit.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am all mastercrafted, with hoolo hat and most spells adept III and master 1 ,   and i can't tank more than a 60 heroic.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I missed most of my mitigation (and i am leather) and also   3-4 % of my avoiadance (and i need it to tank)....now an hit for me, is such a handgranade in the balls....</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Rezzonico on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:22 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rezzonico on <span class=date_text>11-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 AM</span>

[Rezzonico]

<DIV>woops...what a bad grammar...</DIV>

[TheSummoned]

nm this post. Wanted to reply, but changed my mind and accidentally hit Submit Post. <div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by TheSummoned on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:35 AM</span>

[wayward]

<DIV>i aggree with it all but yeah whats up with all classes having safe fall.  i mean my 70 sk loves it but if everyone has it then make it so my safe fall goes up fast.  i mean you guys made it so SF hardly goes up at all now all classes have.  for those classes that have SF then we should never take any damage from where ever if you really think about it.</DIV>

[Etchii]

<P>Agreed on the gimped... I havn't tryed since they increased the uncontested avoidance yesterday, but a green heroic in kaladim p0wned me hard core no matter what strat I tried.  It was the goblin with the cube right past the kobolds near the front. </P> <P>For a 69 bruiser with 50/50 mix of legendary/mastercrafted & all adept 3 stances & plenty of master 1 CA's i think thats unacceptable.... maybe I'm wrong tho... /shrug.</P> <P>Its just frustrating going from KoS where I was able to solo heroic ^^^s one level beneath me about 90% of the time, to getting owned on green heroics in EoF 100% of the times... blah.  </P> <P> (I should note that heroic no arrow greens were no problem, infact they were easier than the non heroic ^ kobolds right next to them... seems arrows mean so much more than heroic or non heroic now...)</P> <P> </P> <P>As for the safe fall thing, I was unaware of the other classes getting the ability...kinda sux.  A guardian with all that heavy plate armor should not be able to jump off the top of crushbone like I am able to.... meh.   </P>

[Arealath]

I recently rerolled my bruiser and found that he only cures mental effects now....[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is that about?<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I cured trauma effects on myself as of 5 minutes ago.Some effects are not curable tho. Like the Fecund Wound one spiders do that hatch a spiderling... uncurable, you just have to deal with it. But any regular dot/debuff trauma effect that's on me I can cure fine.<div></div>

[Khalif]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arealath wrote:<BR>I recently rerolled my bruiser and found that he only cures mental effects now....<BR><BR><BR>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is that about?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The first ability in that line cures mental only, other cures are added into it as it upgrades, every 14 levels, roughly.

[Koriho]

<P>I think just about all soloers got hit hard with these changes - and I Strongly agree that isn't appropriate.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>However as far as brawlers go - they are still soloing a lot of the nameds in SoS so it cant be That bad.  And I've seen a few duo clearing nameds in EoF and doing instances.  You may not be able to farm with the ease that you used to, but evidently it's still doable.</P>

[Sorffats]

Bruisers definitely got gimped.   Pre-EoF I could tank in a group pretty well because of my ability to avoid.  Now it's as if my avoidance is nonexistant.  My bruiser is on a pvp server, and in pvp it's REALLY bad.  I was fighting an even con ranger just the other day and I avoided all of ONE of his attacks.  Any mage could avoid ONE attack.  I'm a bruiser, my longevity relies on my avoidance.  I may as well don a robe and call myself battle mage.

[deadsidedemon]

<font face="Arial">That sounds about right for PvP ... if you're in offensive stance (don't know if you were, but let's say you are) and the ranger was in his offensive stance, that is going to be a huge gap between your defensive skills and his offensive skills.  Kinda like fighting a green-con.As I've mentioned before, I haven't seen much dropoff in soloing/grouping.  I can still accomplish everything I could pre-EOF.  I can't speak for raiding, because frankly I haven't been raiding with my Bruiser for a month and don't really have plans to start up again anytime soon :p</font><div></div>