AVD tanking fix or more nerfs?

[PhozFa]

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194 new changes ahead and alot of #s. Certain parts imply closing gaps between avd vs mit tanking including MG (http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=115127#M115127) saying ..... "Discussions on mitigation, avoidance, resists, and similar factors would benefit from reading <a href="message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194" target="_blank">this post</a> which details some of the changes that are coming with the launch of Echoes of Faydwer. Basically, we've had the same concerns as many of you for a while about some of these topics, and the mechanics folks have been working on improving these systems for some time."<div></div>

[Coriantum]

<DIV>Gungo here had to use this account for now.</DIV> <DIV>I see nerfs but feel free to enlighten me on the monk boards. I explained what i read overthere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Owa]

<FONT face=Garamond size=4>What I get from this is tanking is going to be harder and avoidance is going to be worse etc etc - BUT we're going to be more equal to plate tanks. Even though it's going to be worse. Yeah.</FONT>

[Quicksilver74]

<P><SPAN><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <LI><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>It forced named raid encounters to have increased melee attack skills, which unfairly affected classes that rely more on avoidance.</SPAN> <LI><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Cloth and Leather armor wearers were effectively double penalized because increasing their mitigation values gave less benefit per-point than did Chain/Plate.</SPAN></LI> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>QFE</P> <P>This means that guardians having higher mit won't give them that much more of an advantage of us.  It also means that epics aren't going to have as high crush/pierce/slash skills, so avoidance will actually be effective on them.  </P> <P>We may indeed have a lower overall avoidance % after these changes are made due to some base chances being lowered, however it also means that what we do have will be much more effective.  I only hope that sony doesn't force brawlers into the position of being a MT all the time.   I still want good DPS and Utillity AAs to give us the choice.  </SPAN></P>

[Gaige]

<P>What you <EM>should have </EM>got from this is that brawlers will be beefed up in regards to defense.  Not only will they gain personal mitigation, the difference in mitigation between a brawler and a warrior will shrink.  So we gain ground in two ways and that is only mitigation.</P> <P>As far as avoidance, while overall avoidance is being lowered (because when avoidance works, it works too well.  Hence all the bonuses mobs have now) its going to be more effective.  Instead of having a visual 80% avoidance that is only effectively working as 40% avoidance, the avoidance we do have in EoF should fully work.  There isn't going to be any tricks with accuracy modifiers, damage modifiers or con minipulation as far as mobs go because they shouldn't be needed.</P> <P>The mobs started getting buffed to ridiculous levels because the devs had to assume any decent raid tank had capped mitigation and 60%+ avoidance with at <EM>least </EM>10k hp.  To combat that mobs had to be superpowered.</P> <P>I think everyone is reading way to far into the parry/deflection changes instead of paying attention to the overall picture.</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

That's what it seems like to me..Basically a redux of Gaige's interpretation:There will be less gap between plate and brawler tank mitigation and avoidance, therefore mobs won't need the "always hit" bonuses and "super damage" they have, therefore brawlers will be viable tank alternatives.I already have two support classes, a melee DPS, a Caster DPS, and a healer. I'm definately switching my Bruiser to tank mode. Even if we don't "need" him as a tank.. I'll play my other DPS classes as DPS... and pull him out for tanking.This announcement definately put a big smile on my face!<div></div>

[Kaedi]

With the increase of the haste/dps caps I wonder if they will raise the scalability of our group dps buff.

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>What you <EM>should have </EM>got from this is that brawlers will be beefed up in regards to defense.  Not only will they gain personal mitigation, the difference in mitigation between a brawler and a warrior will shrink.  So we gain ground in two ways and that is only mitigation.</P> <P>As far as avoidance, while overall avoidance is being lowered (because when avoidance works, it works too well.  Hence all the bonuses mobs have now) its going to be more effective.  Instead of having a visual 80% avoidance that is only effectively working as 40% avoidance, the avoidance we do have in EoF should fully work.  There isn't going to be any tricks with accuracy modifiers, damage modifiers or con minipulation as far as mobs go because they shouldn't be needed.</P> <P>The mobs started getting buffed to ridiculous levels because the devs had to assume any decent raid tank had capped mitigation and 60%+ avoidance with at <EM>least </EM>10k hp.  To combat that mobs had to be superpowered.</P> <P>I think everyone is reading way to far into the parry/deflection changes instead of paying attention to the overall picture.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Probably the best post I have ever seen you make Gaige.   You hit the nail on the head.  

[Owa]

<DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Most Bruisers don't play on PvP servers so it's probably of no interest to you, but...I wonder how this will affect us in PvP. Scaling mobs down is one thing - being unable to avoid player attacks would be a disaster.</FONT></DIV>

[Coriantum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <P><SPAN><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <LI><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>It forced named raid encounters to have increased melee attack skills, which unfairly affected classes that rely more on avoidance.</SPAN> <LI><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Cloth and Leather armor wearers were effectively double penalized because increasing their mitigation values gave less benefit per-point than did Chain/Plate.</SPAN></LI> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>QFE</P> <P>This means that guardians having higher mit won't give them that much more of an advantage of us.  It also means that epics aren't going to have as high crush/pierce/slash skills, so avoidance will actually be effective on them.  </P> <P>We may indeed have a lower overall avoidance % after these changes are made due to some base chances being lowered, however it also means that what we do have will be much more effective.  I only hope that sony doesn't force brawlers into the position of being a MT all the time.   I still want good DPS and Utillity AAs to give us the choice.  </SPAN></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>We won't be the issue i see is that whiel avoidnace is being made more effective. Avodiance difference between warriors/rogues vs brawlers will be narrowed as well. If you thought brawlers had no place in raids before. Wait till you see the new tanking scouts that do even mroe dps since they can get mroe haste dps.  </P> <P>Here is what i see (raid buffed)</P> <P>      Guardians (Before)                       Guardians (after)<BR>  80%(6k+) mitgation 70% avoid               60%(6k+) mitgation 60% avoid</P> <P>     Brawlers (Before)                          Brawlers (after)<BR>  50%(4k+) mitigation 80% avoid             50%(4k+) mitgation 60% avoid</P> <P>Avoid will now work for both classes and the difference in mtigation between the 2 classes will be narrowed, but we are still the lesser of both tanks. Its even worse when you look  at rogues.</P> <P>swashbuckler (before)                        Swashbuckler (after)<BR>70% (5k+) mitigation 75% avoid              55% (5k+) Mitigation 65% avoid </P> <P>and increased dps due to changes in haste/dps caps (yes scout autoatk is higher then brawler autoatk dps) </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>-Gungo</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Coriantum on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:38 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<div><blockquote><hr>Coriantum wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div>Here is what i see (raid buffed) <p>      Guardians (Before)                       Guardians (after)  80%(6k+) mitgation 70% avoid               60%(6k+) mitgation 60% avoid</p> <p>     Brawlers (Before)                          Brawlers (after)  50%(4k+) mitigation 80% avoid             50%(4k+) mitgation 60% avoid</p><span class="time_text"> </span><hr></blockquote>See.. this is why I don't throw numbers in any of my posts.You have no idea whether or not Brawlers are being lowered to 60% avoidance or 70%. And even then, you won't know how big a difference 10% avoidance will make in defense. Scouts, same thing.Hell, even the Devs don't really know yet, they are just talking about the PROPOSED change. They said so themselves the numbers could be changed from testing.One things they DID say was that the changes aren't meant to make scouts "the new tanks", and they won't make changes that would make that happen. Straight from their mouths.So I wouldn't call out that the sky is falling until we see some hard, tested numbers.</div>

[Coriantum]

<P>Fact is i do know they are reducing avodiance on brawlers by 10+% and gaurds/rogues by 5+%</P> <P>Under the new changes we are goign from a base 30% deflection and 10% parry to 25% delfection and 5% parry. That is a direct nerf of 10% to brawlers 5% to rogues and warriors.</P> <P>Fact the current cap of 420 is being raised 50% higher. What currently was 420 is raised to a higher number. both parry and deflection are being normalised. Since brawlers are getting hit in both caps and guards/rogues are only being hit by parry. I find it safe to assume braalwers are getting hit twice as much. Hence i applied a 5% avodi reduction to both. while rogues and warriors only get a 5% reduction from parry. Brawlers get a 10% reduction from both parry and delfection nerf. <BR><BR>The key difference here is the protection value from shields which is the direct opposite to defelction is not getting raised. And as suchbrawlers take a double nerf to avoidnace compared to the other classes.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Using those numbers and the aproximate known values from Curent raid classes i can fairly safely say those numbers are basically accurate. </SPAN></P> <P>and finally why did they not raise the defense cap. By far the easiest cap to reach. And under the current changes it was not even mentioned? I have no problemwith the changes i think they are a step in the right direction. I just feel these changes do not help the avodiance tank be comparable tanks or Dps.</P><p>Message Edited by Coriantum on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:56 AM</span>

[ganjookie]

Im all for it, this sounds good.  Everything else has been said by those better then me<div></div>

[Ameniel]

I'm afraid that this is gonna make us too much like other tanks and take away some of the uniqueness brawlers had. Hope not though.

[Gaige]

Gungo your estimation, fake numbers and cries of nerf are just you overreacting.  Seriously.  Its kind of sad.  Just calm down.

[Coriantum]

Please enlighten me what is fake with my last post. The fact tht avoid is reduced by a fla 10% for brawlers and 5% for guad rogues? Nope should i povide that qoute for you?Or how about the fact parry and deflection are being scaled further which equates to 2 reductions to brawlers and 1 to guards/rogues? I think not again. Whats really sad is your inability to view both sides of the argument. But then again you always were fascist.

[ganjookie]

<div></div>Dude its just the base being reduced the max will still be fine, this isnt something to get all frothy sweaty about, I have to agree with Gaiger on this one.plus calling people facist is pretty lame dude, [Removed for Content] is that about...<div></div><p>Message Edited by ganjookie on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:44 PM</span>

[Scarrlette]

Please leave the insults out of the disccusion.  Thanks.

[WaachBack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Most Bruisers don't play on PvP servers so it's probably of no interest to you, but...I wonder how this will affect us in PvP. Scaling mobs down is one thing - being unable to avoid player attacks would be a disaster.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yep, the way I see it is that this is a nerf for us pvp brawlers. It may help us tank in raids, but that isn't our main focus anyway on a pvp server. </P> <P>Maybe a dev will come and explain exactly how this will affect the people on pvp servers.</P> <P> </P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coriantum wrote:<BR> <P>Fact is i do know they are reducing avodiance on brawlers by 10+% and gaurds/rogues by 5+%</P> <P>Under the new changes we are goign from a base 30% deflection and 10% parry to 25% delfection and 5% parry. That is a direct nerf of 10% to brawlers 5% to rogues and warriors.</P> <P>Fact the current cap of 420 is being raised 50% higher. What currently was 420 is raised to a higher number. both parry and deflection are being normalised. Since brawlers are getting hit in both caps and guards/rogues are only being hit by parry. I find it safe to assume braalwers are getting hit twice as much. Hence i applied a 5% avodi reduction to both. while rogues and warriors only get a 5% reduction from parry. Brawlers get a 10% reduction from both parry and delfection nerf.<BR><BR>The key difference here is the protection value from shields which is the direct opposite to defelction is not getting raised. And as suchbrawlers take a double nerf to avoidnace compared to the other classes.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Using those numbers and the aproximate known values from Curent raid classes i can fairly safely say those numbers are basically accurate. </SPAN></P> <P>and finally why did they not raise the defense cap. By far the easiest cap to reach. And under the current changes it was not even mentioned? I have no problemwith the changes i think they are a step in the right direction. I just feel these changes do not help the avodiance tank be comparable tanks or Dps.</P> <P>Message Edited by Coriantum on <SPAN class=date_text>09-29-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:56 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Fact is the base is being reduced. We don't know how much our skills are going to raise the actual % of avoidance we end up with.</P> <P>Also, Moorguad specifically talked about the numbers being tossed around:</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The other thing to keep in mind is that the numbers we're plugging into these formulas will be adjusted throughout beta. That's precisely why we're doing it now, in fact; the normal game update cycle of a few weeks simply isn't enough time to give these kinds of changes the testing they deserve. The beta server is an isolated environment [Removed for Content] a nice long span of testing time, which is very beneficial to this process.</FONT></P> <P>And besides, straight from the Dev's mouth... scouts aren't going to become the new tanks:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <HR> Heart's Rage wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN>Is this going to allow brigands to offtank and actuall tanks get some generic crafted gear and go head to head with a mob like Vyemm?</SPAN> </FONT></P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>That's not a goal of these changes, and we wouldn't make them if that would be the result. If anything, these changes make gear selection more meaningful again. And remember, epic mobs will be adjusted to take these factors into account.<BR></FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Found both of these quotes in <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=115163#M115163" target=_blank>this post</A>.</P> <P> </P> <P>If testing shows that Brawlers are still getting the short end of the stick, then maybe we will have our Deflection tweaked differently, who knows.</P> <P>The reason we are saying you are going overboard is because they've just tossed out their IDEAS here, I doubt this is that far into actual coding, let alone any real testing whatsoever. So doomsaying over the initial numbers being a little off is ridiculous.</P> <P>Cool the jets man... wait until we see some actual coded mechanics and tested results.</P>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>Gungo your estimation, fake numbers and cries of nerf are just you overreacting.  Seriously.  Its kind of sad.  Just calm down.<hr></blockquote>/agree Its too early too se how this all pans out in the field. At launch soe stated all fights will be able to tank just in diffrent ways.  For a while i thought they changed thier mind but these changes seem to be they are still out for it. I rarley see bruisers talking about tanking Niz (all the way throu) or tough (non wise prince) raid mobs. Lets just say for a minute these changes are a success and we can tank as effectively as a zerker. Zerkers still have better all around agro generating therefor making us inferior tanks. The AA setups will have alot to do how these changes are. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>I am not doomsaying these changes. I do think they are a step in the right direction. But the way these changes are currently setup is far from the "They are finally fixing us posts" people are reporting. They are fixing avoidance not fixing brawlers. </DIV> <DIV>BTW fascist is not an insult its a person who has fanatical one sided views, who completely disregards anyone elses views but thier own. <BR>I understand these changes will help brawlers in the long run. What these changes do not do is make brawlers better tanks, but liek you said raidi. We will see when these changes hit test how well these changes help brawlers as they are. </DIV>

[auk]

Pendant: Fascism and fanaticism are two very different things.Ob: I don't think that means what you think it means.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PhozFate wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> Gungo your estimation, fake numbers and cries of nerf are just you overreacting.  Seriously.  Its kind of sad.  Just calm down.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>/agree <BR><BR>Its too early too se how this all pans out in the field. At launch soe stated all fights will be able to tank just in diffrent ways.  For a while i thought they changed thier mind but these changes seem to be they are still out for it. I rarley see bruisers talking about tanking Niz (all the way throu) or tough (non wise prince) raid mobs. Lets just say for a minute these changes are a success and we can tank as effectively as a zerker. Zerkers still have better all around agro generating therefor making us inferior tanks. The AA setups will have alot to do how these changes are. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have tanked nizara up to the final named w 1 healer (warden). In my opinion we tank nizara the best. We get hit less, and thus do not get with fireclaw as much. If we do get hit with fireclaw u just hit "stonedeaf" and ignore the 4k a tick dot. Wardens elemental wards and stone deaf and group heals can take out the fire elemental w good dps. I have not however killed the final named w 1 healer. Possible i am sure just need to be on the ball and control those 2 adds. I regularly do the first 8 named just to get the lifetap wrist or dehate gloves. <BR>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> PhozFate wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Gaige wrote: <div></div>Gungo your estimation, fake numbers and cries of nerf are just you overreacting.  Seriously.  Its kind of sad.  Just calm down. <hr> </blockquote>/agree Its too early too se how this all pans out in the field. At launch soe stated all fights will be able to tank just in diffrent ways.  For a while i thought they changed thier mind but these changes seem to be they are still out for it. I rarley see bruisers talking about tanking Niz (all the way throu) or tough (non wise prince) raid mobs. Lets just say for a minute these changes are a success and we can tank as effectively as a zerker. Zerkers still have better all around agro generating therefor making us inferior tanks. The AA setups will have alot to do how these changes are. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I have tanked nizara<u> up to the final named</u> w 1 healer (warden). In my opinion we tank nizara the best. We get hit less, and thus do not get with fireclaw as much. If we do get hit with fireclaw u just hit "stonedeaf" and ignore the 4k a tick dot. Wardens elemental wards and stone deaf and group heals can take out the fire elemental w good dps. I have not however killed the final named w 1 healer. Possible i am sure just need to be on the ball and control those 2 adds. I regularly do the first 8 named just to get the lifetap wrist or dehate gloves. <hr></blockquote>Notice i said all the way throu. I also said it wasn't impossible. I'm happy for you but TBH i have had a brigand tank most of niz except the last named. Warriors just do it noticably easier. I have healed warriors in legendary gear in there before but i know only 1 brawler i can get throu there and hes raid tanked fabled. <div></div>

[Godsgift4040]

<DIV>I will say this, whatever the new expansion brings i just hope we, as a class, end up where we are atm, I am currently very happy with the class, i would like to see some changes but they are relatively minor ones. Yes i think we should do more dps then zerkers and or gaurdians who dps on raids, but there is a lot of things atm that are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing amazing about the bruiser class. We are uber soloers, uber group tanks, good sustainable raid dps on almost any encounter minus one or two that i can think of, a great tank if geared properly, are raid utility being that we pull or bounce agro with others etc.... and even destroy people in duels for the most part. You get to do almost every part of the game in a single class. With the best raid gear you can easily hit 6k mitigation (with vig spirit) and 80 percent avoidance in the right group for those that are dismissing our tanking ability... I for one am just hopeful that in EoF we end up with the same or similar things that we have now. I would hate to lose the ability to tank for additional dps or gain tanking abilities for lack of dps. If this happens, i just hope that WE get to choose where we end up through aas, not through this combat change.</DIV> <DIV>   70 Denubis Befallen</DIV>

[Gungo]

<p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 PM</span>

[Nawz]

<DIV>I don't like it. I rolled my bruiser, way back in the day at launch to be DPS. After being away for a year and coming back to find that I am pretty much a tank now blows. I wanna be tough and all, but if I wanted to be MT I would have made a guardian or SK. In the 4 months of being back, I have not once been DPS in a pickup group, EVER. Always stuck tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize scouts and mages are the DPS kings, but I want more damage AA's.  </DIV>

[Vegter Leeuw]

<div></div>the way its looking right now brawlers will become better raid tanks. thanks to the diminishing returns in mitigation, and with mobs losing their +skills our avoidance will work better while still being about 15 percent higher than plate tanks. now all they have to do is throw in some nice ae taunt aa's and we will make great raid tanks.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Vegter Leeuwen on <span class=date_text>10-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:33 AM</span>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Nawz75 wrote:<div>I don't like it. I rolled my bruiser, way back in the day at launch to be DPS. After being away for a year and coming back to find that I am pretty much a tank now blows. I wanna be tough and all, but if I wanted to be MT I would have made a guardian or SK. In the 4 months of being back, I have not once been DPS in a pickup group, EVER. Always stuck tanking.</div> <div> </div> <div>I realize scouts and mages are the DPS kings, but I want <u><b>more damage AA's</b></u>.  </div><hr></blockquote>more damage AAs? now thats funny. hmm a STR line dedicated to being able to do fabled weapon DPS without weapons. 1 perma single target proc, 1 perma AE proc crit hits, 2h staff AE, extra duel wield spin, extra ranged attack with debuff. Bruisers have very little tanking AAs. I have heard DPS classes complain we have too many damage AAs. <div></div>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>These changes are going to be great.  Just great.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   No need to worry honestly.   </DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>What you <EM>should have </EM>got from this is that brawlers will be beefed up in regards to defense.  Not only will they gain personal mitigation, the difference in mitigation between a brawler and a warrior will shrink.  So we gain ground in two ways and that is only mitigation.</P> <P>As far as avoidance, while overall avoidance is being lowered (because when avoidance works, it works too well.  Hence all the bonuses mobs have now) its going to be more effective.  Instead of having a visual 80% avoidance that is only effectively working as 40% avoidance, the avoidance we do have in EoF should fully work.  There isn't going to be any tricks with accuracy modifiers, damage modifiers or con minipulation as far as mobs go because they shouldn't be needed.</P> <P>The mobs started getting buffed to ridiculous levels because the devs had to assume any decent raid tank had capped mitigation and 60%+ avoidance with at <EM>least </EM>10k hp.  To combat that mobs had to be superpowered.</P> <P>I think everyone is reading way to far into the parry/deflection changes instead of paying attention to the overall picture.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>QFE</P> <P> </P> <P>Well said. </P>