Unarmed AA versus Fabled Dual Wield

[lagerone]

<DIV>Has anyone parsed the DPS from the Unarmed AA line versus dual wielding Fabled Tier 7 weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My question is really simple, with 2 DR 60 ish Fabled weapons will you outdamage Unarmed with STR 4-4-8, all other things being equal.</DIV><p>Message Edited by lagerone on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Another stipulation should be parsing with Unarmed with Str/Sta/Int all at 4, 4, 8... and fabled weapons at Sta/Wis/Int 4, 4, 8.</P> <P>Just trying out the fabled weapons with the Strength line spec'd doesn't do it full justice.</P> <P> </P> <P>Personally, I think the Wisdom's AA will be unreliable damage compared to the +DPS from unarmed... but I'm not sure how big a difference it would be. I have my Staff of the Flapping Wing now... and haven't respec'd once yet... so I might try this out myself sometime.</P>

[Gungo]

The str AA line is good DPS, but it does not parse as well as 2 very good raid obtained 60+ dual wields with int/wis/sta line. On the other hand the str line does provide decent defense with the increased riposte AND nek3 zone drops brawler gloves that have a 5% 56 dam proc while fighting unarmed. And until recently str AA line doubled your ranged DPS. Its a very good DPS AA setup. But a well equiped raiding bruiser is not doin himslef justice by going unarmed.

[Quicksilver74]

<P>By the way, Base damage for unarmed is 33-100 with a 2.5 delay.  That is with no DPS modifier.   if you don't have fabled weapons it's a good way to go.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT* thats at lvl 70 btw.   dunno what it is for lower lvls</P><p>Message Edited by Quicksilver74 on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[RPZip]

It's interesting that you say your Unarmed base daamge is 33-100... that's what mine is at level 60 when I do /weaponstats without any buffs on. Or is that 33-100 if you subtract the 20% boost from the STR line first?<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Base damage, as in no Strength modifiers, no DPS modifiers... essentially, the info you'd see if you were inspecting it like you can with weapons.</P> <P>For example.. say you inspect a pristine adamantine war maul... and it says "Damage: 33-98 (54.3 Rating)"... that's basically what unarmed is like at lvl 70.</P> <P> </P> <P>Weaponstats will usually give you MUCH higher than that, since it adds in Strength bonus and DPS modifiers.</P>

[satyr-icon]

<P>Then you can double that DR, because with unarmed you double attack on 96% of your attacks. </P> <P>So instead of comparing unarmed with a 55 DR duel weild weaponset, you know already that you will out dps that by a million miles. First because of your 20% dps increase and secondly because you will double attack a lot.</P> <P>In addition to this, the procs that you get from the sta-int line, will have DOUBLE the chance of procing on auto attack hence the double attacking etc.</P> <P> </P> <P>So the comparison is way off.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am currently using two t7 fabled weapons, with dr of 60.6 and 58 for offhand. I have str-sta-int at 448 each .When i fight unarmed i do more dps by far then i do with weapons with this setup. However, when raiding i sometimes need to put on different weapons for either stats, hp, or dmg type effects. But on average, unarmed is the killer!</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> satyr-icon wrote:<BR> <P>Then you can double that DR, because with unarmed you double attack on 96% of your attacks. </P> <P>So instead of comparing unarmed with a 55 DR duel weild weaponset, you know already that you will out dps that by a million miles. First because of your 20% dps increase and secondly because you will double attack a lot.</P> <P>In addition to this, the procs that you get from the sta-int line, will have DOUBLE the chance of procing on auto attack hence the double attacking etc.</P> <P> </P> <P>So the comparison is way off.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am currently using two t7 fabled weapons, with dr of 60.6 and 58 for offhand. I have str-sta-int at 448 each .When i fight unarmed i do more dps by far then i do with weapons with this setup. However, when raiding i sometimes need to put on different weapons for either stats, hp, or dmg type effects. But on average, unarmed is the killer!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>:smileysurprised: eeeeeeeeeEEEEEEE *head a'splode*</P> <P> </P> <P>Okay..</P> <P>The comparison is the Strength line with Stamina and Intelligence lines vs using <STRONG>two </STRONG>DR 60 dual wield weapons, along with the Wisdom line. Strength line being 55 DR with 96% double attack vs DR 60 + DR 60. So yeah, the comparison is perfectly valid.</P> <P>And like I said.. you can't just slap on two weapons with the Strength line and expect a proper comparison. You need to respec to the Wisdom line for the added damage for it to be at all fair. Otherwise the Strength line is getting the extra 20% DPS mod that the weapons won't, so <EM>of course</EM> you'll parse lower... you've got 16 basically wasted points when using those weapons.</P> <P>Sorry if this sounds a little bit on the flaming side, but I said as much in the very first post I made in this thread. Having to repeat myself makes me testy.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also.. a while back they took out the procs on any extra attacks from Double Attack. You will only proc on the first one, so it is <EM>exactly</EM> like Dual Wield. No, you won't proc twice on Mantis Bolt, and Dual Wield crits on the offhand anyways, so there's literally no advantage whatsoever to having Double Attack.</P> <P>Even moreso now that they aren't letting ranged attacks (with 70-100 DRs) use that Double Attack.</P> <P>At level 70, unarmed is better than any weapon except the high end damage ones. So mostly fabled or those exceptional legendary weapons. Prime exampels being Twin Calamities or Staff of the Flapping Wing. Which means you can get fabled quality damage right away by speccing with the Strength line.</P> <P>But once you get those weapons, you might as well switch over since you'll not only do the same damage (or even a bit higher), but you'll also get extra stats and nifty procs that unarmed is currently lacking.</P> <P>And there's been lots of posts on this subject over the last few months, so you can read the same info from a dozen longtime bruisers on these boards too. The only thing that hasn't been done is specific parses under controlled settings, with results posted on the forums... which is what the OP was asking for.</P> <P>If I ever reach 50 AAs (currently working on my Coercer's AAs), I'll do the parse and post it. I have a staff of the flapping wing and tons of respec's left. Just need like 6 or so more AAs.</P>

[neon_24]

OK Str/Sta/Int 4/4/8 Vs   Sta/Wis/Int 4/4/8 60+ DR Dual weild (Marr's Fist 60.6DR / Fist of Bashing 60.8DR) 100+ DR 2 Hand (Staff of the Flapping Wing DR 108.5 / Mallet of the Overlord DR 106.6) i will do this once i get back to a decent connection i should be able to do it friday and Saterday nights <div></div>

[Gungo]

O use the new Nek 3 gloves which add to unarmed proc damage.

[lagerone]

<DIV> <DIV>I really appreciate the well thought out responses.  I have one of the Calamities now and I'm holding out for a second Fabled D/W, but if 4-4-8 STR proved to do more damage I would happily leave those slots empty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know if you're raiding no one really would like to think that having NOTHING instead of 2 raid drops would lead to a better DPS outcome but it would be nice to clear this up once and for all with a parse instead of a 'pinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes I agree the 4-4-8 STR should be offset by 4-4-8 WIS for a true comparison.  I was away from the game for a while and I'm sitting on 33 AA and I only have one D/W Tier 7 Fabled so alas I can't do the parse myself.</DIV></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by lagerone on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:10 AM</span>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>If you have one of teh calamities... maybe you should work on Wurmslayer.  It's really a very nice weapon, and has a nice extra proc for draconic mobs.  Slow delay for a dual wield, makes it have higher damage.  It's great for doing CA's inbetween each autoattack.   Personally it's my favorite weapon. </DIV>

[neon_24]

sorry was not able to get any raid parseing done tonight ended up haveing to tank MO i will see what i can get tomarrow <div></div>

[blueduckie]

Why would a 1% proc aa line (wis line) be better than agi line for reuse timer on combat arts. Unless the wis % to proc goes up with each rank.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Yes it does...</P> <P>In fact, both the % and the damage goes up with each rank, so it ends up being a high damage, aoe proc with 8% chance to go off.</P> <P>Debatably better than 20% +DPS, but definately better than using a 30s ability 2.4 seconds sooner.</P> <P> </P> <P>Honestly.. the Agility line should either be increased to 2.5% per rank (max 20%), along with a 10% reduction in CA power cost... or changed into something else completely (maybe a proc to hit multiple targets with AoE like the other fighter classes?). Those would put it into competition with the other lines.</P>

[lagerone]

<DIV>The Parse God...not the Pinion God...must rule this thread.</DIV>

[lagerone]

<P>Results from two solo runs tonight in Ancient's Table:</P> <UL> <UL> <LI>Unarmed:</LI> <LI>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-4-8</LI> <LI>19 parses, total damage 11,218, <STRONG>average DPS 590</STRONG>, highest 645</LI></UL></UL> <P> </P> <UL> <UL> <LI>Primal Velium Claws (53.4), The Twin Calamities (63.7):</LI> <LI>INT 4-4-8, STA 4-4-8</LI> <LI>19 parses, total damage 11,054, <STRONG>average DPS 581</STRONG>, highest 671</LI></UL></UL> <P> </P> <P>Short of two (good) Fabled weapons the STR line wins the DPS game hands down.  With two Fabled weapons based on the above parses you should out DPS the Strength line...just. </P> <P>That parse, right or wrong, suggests STR 4-4-8 is like having 59.4 DR weapons!  Would need more parses and ideally someone with 50 AA to further test this.</P> <P>Message Edited by lagerone on <SPAN class=date_text>08-30-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:17 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by lagerone on <span class=date_text>08-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:17 AM</span>

[Xxooo-Coav]

<DIV>I have outdps'd monks with Marr's Fist and the higher DR Twin Calamaties, and I only have STR/INT 4-4-8 (STA is still inwork)</DIV>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>Well, outdpsing a monk is a trivial task at best.  I've seen templars out dps monks!</DIV>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, outdpsing a monk is a trivial task at best.  I've seen templars out dps monks!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Monks get no respect. I have arguably one of the best monks in my guild she regularly parses 1200-1400. dual wielding the hand of destruction and twin calamities Generally. 4/4/8 int sta wis. we have 2 coercer and 0 illusinists in guild  So with 100% haste and nearor at 100% dps and with a few caster classes to give her procs. she is not doing templar DPS. A monk group is set up differenly then a bruiser group. No need for hate classes for monks instead just give them some good proc classes. Assasins/conjuros/wizards/coercer and she is on the top 8 of parses alot. Just because your monks suck doesn't means everyone does. Just like rangers always complaining they do crap dps. hard for me to see that when our rangers kick out ~2k DPS continuely. Of course both our rangers have 100+DR bows w T7 ammo summoning. bows and fully mastered. The only classes that continuely outdps our rangers are necros and assasins.<p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>08-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Xxooo-Coav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, outdpsing a monk is a trivial task at best.  I've seen templars out dps monks!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>A few months ago, Monks were some of the best consistent DPS.  Granted, I havent raided as a monk since March or April, but I after I converted to STR/INT line, I was consistently in top 10 of every fight, usually in top 5 (another monk would usually beat me out for the top few).</P> <P>Something to consider is who your group is.  Many times (as I was the newbie of the guild), would get slotted in the 'filler' group. That kinda meant I did not have any buffs other than what I could buff myself with.  </P>

[Dart]

<DIV><SPAN class=974074219-01092006> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Gungo hit it right on: Monks in the right group (in our case MT group, usually parse 1200 to 1400) so don't dis da monkeys. Most cases it is all about group makeup. Obviously they can self haste to 100%, its the added buffs for crit/proc chances and DPS mod's that make them shine.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana><FONT size=2>But OMGZOR give me a coerc, and bard<SPAN class=974074219-01092006> -</SPAN> Dr00l dps.<SPAN class=974074219-01092006> (usually I only get the Bard). Plus using KO combo durring dispatch... pwnzor</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2><Use Fist of mar and 63.7 dam rating Twin cal, this is in DPS mode. If tanking, I swap in my hard-shelled crab stick</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana><FONT size=2>Many O - times I have thought of going back to str line, <SPAN class=974074219-01092006>but </SPAN>just cant see bagging all my neat weapons.<SPAN class=974074219-01092006> Both twins (btw the debuff on the 57 dam rating twin is like over 1k to piercing)/fists of mar/crab-shelled baton/Staff of flapping wind...</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>My [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e: </FONT><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=413122202" target=_blank><FONT face=Verdana size=2>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=413122202</FONT></A><FONT face=Verdana size=2>. Think atm I have some resist gear on for crushing, so check in 24 hours.</FONT></P></SPAN></DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>Unarmed line sucks.  :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>448 wis/int/sta with vrak's club or tc/hod/marr's is the way to go.</P>

[J4k]

<P>Unarmed line is teh suxorz!!! Everyone who defends this aa is also teh suxorz. THE only benefitial thing about the unarmed AA was a bug that alloud you to double attack on ranged which with the right ranged item / ammo would be decent dps. Compare our double attack to that of lets say... every other class. Warriors get to use a 90 dmg rating weapon to double attack with that has stats and a proc. Scouts also get high dmg rating weapons 80 - 87 dmg rating i believe with procs. What do we get. We get unarmed 2delay low dmg rating fists that dont even hit any freakin dragons in this game which dont even get me started on how dumb that is. Im willing to bet if you get 2 duel wields from t6 you will do close to the same dmg as unarmed pooattack. Stick with fabled basically what gaige said as far as weapons and AA's except use the wurm slayer to. its a nice weapon.</P>

[Cocytus]

I LOVE the look and feel and dps of my Soulspur/Twin Calamity combo. Screw unarmed AA's. :p

[Schwertheiliger]

If you compare stre line dps with anything else you have to use the configuration 4 - 8 - 8 for some reason. You cant count the debuff out, cause he is the catalyst for the damage.

[-Frank-]

I used unarmed until I got a decent dual wield combo, and if I had to do it over again, I'd do the same thing. Whomever suggests that it's awful is just, well, kinda wrong. No, it's not as good as a pair of 60+ DR dual wielders, but it is noticably better than say, a pair of anything less. <div></div>

[satyr-icon]

I have gone agi-sta-int, str sta agi and sta agi wis, and now im back at str int sta at 448 each. And i swear, i parse higher unarmed. On some mobs i dont do a whole lot better, but in general on raids i parse out about an average of 700 dps unarmed and about 600 with weapons of DR 60.Sometimes i have to use weapons for different reasons, but when im out to show up on the top 5 of parser, its all unarmed that matters.Unfortunately i have spent my respecs and payed my bill do keep swapping AA lines, so now each respec costs me 10plat.If i would do more dps with sta int wis line, using my dr60s, i would definately pay the 10p needed, but however, if i found that to be a bad choice, i will never have the 100p needed to redo it.... So, in short, i better see some really good parses or arguments to ever spend those 10p going wis+sta+int.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

You can't really compare any DPS aa spread with one that contains any Agi... the Agility line does so little towards increasing DPS it's laughable.You <i>will </i>see appreciable increase in damage if you go Sta, Int, Wis with weapons... but they do have to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fine weapons. Even then, I'd probably wait for a free respec instead of wasting 10pp on it. I don't have that much money.And you can't go 4, 8, 8 in Strength line if you intend to get 4, 4, 8 in Stamina and Int lines... which one do you choose to be less? Half the procs on the Stamina line? Or half the crits on the Int line? Cuz weapons are gonna be 4, 4, 8 in Sta, Wis, Int.. and that's what you are comparing to.If all you have is 20 points to play with (after the initial point), then yeah.. 4, 8, 8 in strength is going to win out a bit compared to what else you could do with only 20 points. But eventually you are going to hit 50 points, and that edge disappears.<div></div>

[chOgg]

<div><blockquote><hr>satyr-icon wrote:...If i would do more dps with sta int wis line, using my dr60s, i would definately pay the 10p needed, but however, if i found that to be a bad choice, i will never have the 100p needed to redo it.... ...<hr></blockquote>I believe the limit is 10p for respecs.  You can respec as many times as you want for 10p each.Thoral, 57 Bruiser, Mistmoore</div>

[Landaros]

You have different opinions and surely different parses to prove everyone right or wrong.Nevertheless I havent seen any well known bruiser or monk on Mistmoore who is actually running around empty handed.<div></div>

[Dandeli]

<DIV>For all intense dps maximizing purposes, get Fabled weapons with matching delays (If you can). If you can match the damage types like pierce/slash/crush of weapons and then get modifiers to bump that up. I gave a duel calamites example below.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't quote me on these, off the top of my head:</DIV> <DIV>Some popular setups:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.5 Delay (prob one of worst setups, still better then not having matching delays)</DIV> <DIV>HardShell sharpened Baton</DIV> <DIV>Fist of bashing</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.6 Delay<BR>Dual calamites</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Toss in that Belt slayer belt for +7 pierce, Basilisk boots for +4pierce, that legendary earing from HoF for +6pierce. Yum (this what I use, minus the boots and earing which I want)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Marr's fist</DIV> <DIV>Horndrake crescent</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.8 Delay (setup I'd like to have = hand + fist - Both crushing)</DIV> <DIV>Hand of Destruction (GL getting)<BR>Fist of pain</DIV> <DIV>Ancient katar of Destruction</DIV> <DIV>Jade chokadai baton</DIV> <DIV><BR>1.2 Delay</DIV> <DIV>Scepter of destruction</DIV> <DIV>Bonetooth skewer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The wurmslayer is 3.0 delay. I dont know of another DW 3.0 delay weapon, if I were to use it at all I'd use it as a 2her.</DIV> <DIV>Velium is 1.3, I'd prob only use with Velium.</DIV> <DIV><BR>If these little tidbits dont matter to you, such as matching delay, concern with dpsing in between combat arts, your prob not too concerned with maximizing dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Unarmed is easier to maximize dps as far as effort put in compared to Fabled weapons.</DIV> <DIV>-If your feeling noob, dont tell anyone, and just go with unarmed till you get more interested in freaking out your dps. It's also best for button mashers.</DIV> <DIV>-the 1.6's are easiest to get situated into. </DIV> <DIV>-The 1.8's I would guess are too but so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to get for the majority of us. </DIV> <DIV>-1.2's are getting a little fast especially if you have haste. You can peak those out at 0.6 delay. Most your combat arts are 0.5 delay so if your feeling confident about being able to consistantly time within 0.1-0.2secs, I'd stay away from those)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope this helps<BR>XoXo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Dandelize on <span class=date_text>09-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:45 AM</span>

[Ishya]

<div></div>/weaponstatsunarmed lvl 70 ; 50 AP4s : STR 4 - 4 - 8 - 5- 1  int 4 - 4 - 8 - 4unbuffed primary:Base Damage = 40 - 120Actual Damage = 114 - 343Actual delay = 2.2 secondary: Base Damage = 40 - 120 Actual Damage = 114 - 343 Actual delay = 2.2 also note , will be a 96% chance to double attacks , so virtually almost doubles Autoattack DPSparsing my autoattack at 350-370 , with no buffs at all, only autoattack (with 15% haste belt though)/weaponstats with  52.3 dps and a 49.2 dps DW weapons:primary : 52.3 Dps weapon Base Damage 13-50Actual Damage 36 - 145Actual delay : 1.0secondary: 49.2dps weaponBase Damage  : 20- 59Actual Damage : 57 - 171Actual Delay : 1.4my dps is on same mobs : parsing my autoattack at 200-220 , with no buffs at all, only autoattack (with 15% haste belt though)so unless i get some 65-70 dps DW weapons i'll stay Unarmedi tried getting the proc ap, and noticed i only got 20-30 dps more with it  ( i am at 13pp respec now because of those try-outs =p )<div></div><p>Message Edited by Ishya on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 PM</span>

[ganjookie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishya wrote:so unless i get some 65-70 dps DW weapons i'll stay Unarmed<div></div><hr></blockquote>Pretty much what Im doing.  waiting till I get some 65+ dps then switch AAs</div>

[Ishya]

here is "some" proofonly autoattacking, no abilities used at all, occasionally reached 80% DPS /haste increase (with berserker in group) :barehanded dps : about 700 : <img src="http://users.pandora.be/Eshu/pic/autoattack.JPG"><div></div>