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J4k

06-23-2006, 09:49 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ominuswolf wrote:<BR> Oops lol anywho i see peps talkin about our dps or utility abilities but from a group or raid perspective we are no real use our tanking ability is bad aye we can tank but thats know how and skill if you are I have tanked with rangers before and there dps has as good if not better group control then we have and as dps yes in the right group with the right buffs we do fine but still low end and <FONT color=#ffff00>if you are proud of your dps for a bruiser remember group buffs arnt ur buffs and another class with those same buffs would probably do better</FONT> Im just sayin SOE has to make us DPS or TANKS cause right now thats what a group is lookin for dps or a tank not a i kinda do both but not very well class<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wrong. Bruiser dps alot of it is auto attack. im gunna say about 50% of our dps is auto attack compared to other classes whos majority of dps comes from combat arts. DPS buffs will effect us more so then a class whos dps is highly combat art based and not as much auto attacking. Haste will also effect us slightly more for the same reason. Now im not saying those buffs DONT effect anyone but us but they do have better benefits. Now i cant believe you said rangers were better dps then us. You need to seriously rethink what your doing if this is happening. Our aggro controll does imo need looking at. 2 taunts and basing our hate mostly on dps really aint cutting it Especially when you got other fighters with more taunts pulling out the same or better dps ( i know ive said it 100 times but its a fact ).Wether or not these other classes need nerfed i dunno, I saay they need tweaking others say leave them alone but something needs to be done on one of the ends. I dont like nerfs as much as the next person but when they need to happen, they need to happen thats how it goes to keep balance. As far as tanking goes we can do it fine. sure some extra mit wouldnt hurt things but our main issue is hate when you got other fighters dishing out more taunts and more or really close to the same dps it can become a struggle.</P> <P>Now last time i heared we were probably one of the better group tanks. We dps we tank etc. group tanking vs raid tanking are very different and i think our raid tanking is what needs the looking at. I tanked from 60 - 70 just find pulling 4 - 5 different encounters at once no problem.</P>

Colossaltitan

06-23-2006, 09:53 PM

If theirs any problem its the fact that we are the class that isn't necessary, and a class that isn't necessary gets jewed on buffs, which inturn makes our dps not-so-hot.

J4k

06-23-2006, 09:56 PM

<DIV>Well i am pretty happy with my role in raids. YES split pulling would freakin own all but it would also require the game to basically change everything about it for it to even be remotly like eq1 and even fun to do. Basically in a raid im dps most of the fight pulling 1k - 1.4k dps. When [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hits the fan say we get another mob or the tank goes down i can pretty quickly switch into defensive + mitigation buff and change my armor out while building aggro on the mob untill the main tank is up. ( Our aggro does own over time but it takes time to get the aggro up there. ) Also Feign death has its uses and can save alot of time to which is a nother role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus i r teh l33t fl0w3r kicker in lyceum !! FEAR ME<BR></DIV>

Gungo

06-23-2006, 09:57 PM

Dragorn you do realise scouts base auto atk damage is higher then brawlers right? Now granted scouts comabt arts are also higher damage in comaprison to bruisers. But in general scouts pure auto atk is greater total amount then brawlers because its higher. furthermore i think what the original poster means is HASTE and DPS (not including the 24% bruiser DPS) is not directly associated to the bruiser and thus should not be considered part of our ability of added DPS. If the bruiser would sit out of raid and a ranger took his place that same haste buff would go on that ranger and thus increase the raids DPS just as much if not more. Even without that bruiser that added DPS is still directly included in the raid becuase the bruiser did not provide that DPS.

J4k

06-23-2006, 10:11 PM

<DIV>You should probably raid more gungo. Assassins can pull as much dps auto attack as me yes but why would u say ranger. Rangers cant pull as much dps as me useing combat arts vs me auto attacking. They get more combat arts then us = they will be doing less auto attack and more combat arts going off. swashbucklers are probbly also pretty close to the dmg. Seriously though you need to go raid a bit often or get better gear. Ive auto attacked and seen the dps i can pull generally in the 700 - 900dps range. Assassins can do more most likly but thats about it. Go parse a scout on a fight doing normal stuff useing combat arts etc. now parse a brawler or even a berserker see what percentage of there dps is from auto attack vs what percentage is from there combat arts.</DIV>

Colossaltitan

06-23-2006, 10:13 PM

<DIV>I'm sure Dragorn realises that, but what he pointed out earlier is, Scouts combat arts totally pwn ours as far as DPS goes.<BR><BR>So, where they can sit their and hit CA's to put out great DPS, we auto-attack hitting a few ca's here and their (aside from when KO Combo is up) So, we would make more out of the DPS Buffs.</DIV>

Colossaltitan

06-23-2006, 10:13 PM

yoooooo, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ! u post too fast dragon >_<

J4k

06-23-2006, 10:23 PM

<DIV>sorry <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> im getting ready for work and hitting refresh on the page every so often. What i was saying is if you parse a scout then parse a brawler more of the dps will have been from auto attack for a brawler then the scout due mostly to them have more combat arts plus higher damagin combat arts + poison etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if you get someone doing 50% of there dmg is auto attack then a scout doing 30% auto attack dmg. Bruisers dps will be increased more so then the scouts. now haste is a little different because the scout will get more hits inbetween the combat arts so haste effects us both pretty evenly.</DIV><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 AM</span>

Gungo

06-23-2006, 10:25 PM

<P>I do raid daily and i am in the second guild world wide who got DT access. Rangers was a bad class comparison. Mainly because rangers Bows are not comparable to the dual wields a brawler uses. Orginally it was stated rangers bows would be equal to the damage rating of 2 handers. So far there is no bow remotely close to a fabled 2 hander. The best bow DR wise (not including procs) is the bow off the monoliths. (i think its a ~91DR?) This bow with the summoned T8 ammo from the taranix bow will outdamage ANY Brawler. I said before in a prior thread me and the monk in guild genrally parse in at the top 8 of our parse list. The classes that regularly are in the top 3 are still necros with the master DPS pet, either of 2 rangers, an assasins, and conjuror w master pet. </P> <P>I guess you missed the entire point of this argument when they said it is not our direct DPS that is appleid in the raid. A bruiser does parse high, but it is not because he brought that dps to the raid. IF the bruiser left the raid the only thing that would go with him is his 24% dps buff. Brigands do good dps. The reason brignads are so saught after in raids is not because of their DPS, but its because thier Debuffs allow the raid to do a whole lot more DPS. This DPS is directly related to the brigands debuffs. If the brigand left the raid the raids dps would drop considerably. This applied DPS would not show up on any parser unless you look at the total raid DPS.</P>

J4k

06-23-2006, 10:33 PM

<DIV>neg. Yet another " you missed the point speech ". He sais you put a ranger in a same group as the bruiser for dps buffs and the ranger will do better dmg. I relpy no because not all buffs effect all classes the same for for example dps buffs would effect a class that the majority of the dps os auto attack IE Brawlers. Yes it effects other classes to but it will do a slightly higher different on a brawler. you are trying to explain to me what effects dps in a raid and its pretty much a pointless explanation. Grats you were 2nd into DT i was first. I finished the claymore questline first ww killed tarinax first ww firstto kill princes i think 5 times before anyone else did grats me. I know what brigands do, i know what dps buffs do and how they effect people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must now go to work yay!</DIV>

Gungo

06-23-2006, 11:14 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm sure Dragorn realises that, but what he pointed out earlier is, Scouts combat arts totally pwn ours as far as DPS goes.<BR><BR>So, where they can sit their and hit CA's to put out great DPS, we auto-attack hitting a few ca's here and their (aside from when KO Combo is up) So, we would make more out of the DPS Buffs.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>True but what does that have to do with the original posters comments? Scouts are suppsoe to do more dps. We are not a dps class. At least not mroe dps then a scout. The scouts in genreral add more overall dps to raids then brusiers. where the orginal poster was gettign at.</P> <P>Let me put it simply</P> <P>RAID of 24 peeps - Overall DPS lets say 18,000 DPS</P> <P>bruiser drops raid.- Raid DPS Drops 1000dps + 200DPS associated w DPS buff<BR>total raid DPS 16,800</P> <P>Ranger takes bruiser spot- adds 1000DPS +debuffs and buffs 400DPS<BR>raid dps now 18,200<BR></P> <P>Now out of that 1000 DPS the Bruiser added directly to raid 400 of that is directly related to the bruisers autoatk and combat arts self buffed. the other 600 is from the 100% hatse and 76% dps and procs the other classe sin the group provided him.</P> <P>The original posters comment was that the BRUISER direct DPS is not related to him in acctuality only 400 direct dps and 200 dps from the 24% dps buff is attributed by the bruiser.<BR></P> <P><BR> </P>

Gungo

06-23-2006, 11:33 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>neg. Yet another " you missed the point speech ". <FONT color=#ffff33>He sais you put a ranger in a same group as the bruiser for dps buffs and the ranger will do better dmg.</FONT> I relpy no because not all buffs effect all classes the same for for example dps buffs would effect a class that the majority of the dps os auto attack IE Brawlers. Yes it effects other classes to but it will do a slightly higher different on a brawler. you are trying to explain to me what effects dps in a raid and its pretty much a pointless explanation. Grats you were 2nd into DT i was first. I finished the claymore questline first ww killed tarinax first ww firstto kill princes i think 5 times before anyone else did grats me. I know what brigands do, i know what dps buffs do and how they effect people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must now go to work yay!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>if you are proud of your dps for a bruiser remember group buffs arnt ur buffs and another class with those same buffs would probably do better</FONT> </P> <P>__________________________________________________ _______________</P> <P>Who said anything remotely what you are saying there. The part you qouted had nothing to do with what you are saying that i had highlighted in yellow. What he is saying is the DPS provided by a bruiser in raids is not directly related to the bruiser. Put any other DPS class in that group and you will come out with the same or higher result. Becuase they will gain as much benefit from haste and DPS as a brusier. Secondly Our combat arts generally are on a 0.5 cast time. what that means is casting combat arts have little effect on auto atk dps. Btw rangers auto atk is alot more of thier DPS then you think. General parses show after the proc nerf ranger auto atk as much as ~40% of thier DPS.</P> <P>So i guess you are correct you missed the point. Great speech btw. I see your [Removed for Content] got a chubby.</P> <P>Btw please explain to me how</P> <P>bruiser does 1000 dps in raids</P> <P>500 from auto atk and 500 from combat arts = 50% DPS from auto atk</P> <P>Ranger does 1500 dps on raids</P> <P>600 from auto atk and 900 from combat arts= 40% dps from auto atk</P> <P>now if the bruiser had 100% DPS mod he would have 1000 dps related to auto atk<BR>Now if the ranger has 100% DPs he would have 1200Dps related to auto atk</P> <P>So explain to me how because the bruiser total % of dps is related more to auto atk why a ranger would not benefit from 100% DPS mod as much.<BR></P>

J4k

06-24-2006, 04:42 AM

Instead of useing math that you think sounds logical but it isnt possibly look at parses. Ive seen a scout put into a group with 100% dps from my group and then we switched places and the increase to dps our dps was different. My dps jumped slightly more then that of the scout. Ive noticed that when a scout is put into a group that is highly proc oriented vs me in that group his dps goes up higher then mine. You can do all your math all you want but it dont mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Try watching and studying your parses try moving people around and see how the dps changed.

Gungo

06-24-2006, 08:41 AM

<P>Like you always liek to qoute. I guess you "missed the point" of this thread. You cna remvoe a brawler and add a scout to fill in the bruiser slot in the raid and the raids overall DPS would go up. The bruiser has no other raid role beyond that. Case closed</P> <P>Maybe you should look at those classes inr aids more closely because not all scouts are created equal. A rangers DPS is heavily Auto atk oriented now.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:43 PM</span>

J4k

06-24-2006, 10:20 AM

<DIV>whats you just said didnt make much sense. IN about 70% of your posts you try and say someone is missing some point. But ok lets pretend what you said did make sense. Just because you personally cant pull good dps doesnt mean I or any other bruiser cant. Im parsing up there pretty high. Do i Constantly out parse an assassin? no. Do i constantly outparse summoners or swashbucklers? no not constanly But i pull up pretty close behind them and on some mobs and in some cases i can pull ahead of them in dps. I NEVER ONCE said that giving us a dps buff instead of a scout would like totally make is the bestest dps ever d00d. no i merly said some buffs help some classes more so then others. IF you actually ever did research ever payed attention to parses to not just a class in its sellf but the person playing that class do on an average and what groups they are in. What buffs they have when it comes to dps, haste or procs maybe you would know this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bob the assassin could pull 1200 dps a fight while rick the assassin pulls 1500 both in the same group same buffs etc. That 300 dps could have been the difference between rick timeing his combat arts and bob going crazy just hitting random buttons spamming the crap out of everything. Equipment probably played a factor in it. theres so many things that could play a factor in ones dps that dont involve just buffs from other people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you need to get over your ranger obsession. Rangers were nerfed to nothingness. There dps is completly lacking atm and is a extremly bad thing to be bought of as a reference or comparrison to any dps related discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as far as we not having a raid roll thats wrong also. We along with being able ( and i say being able becuase maybe not all bruisers pull 1000 - 1500 dps but we are capable of it ) We can tank when stuff goes wrong like getting an add or the tank died. FD if need be to save from haveing either run back or fight back to where we were. We can avoid hits for a tank if need be poping our avoidance to 80% + helps more then you think when you have shake off on another tank ( generally an encounter that required 2 tanks 1 normally has me blocking for them ). If you seriously cant find a role for yourself as a bruiser. Quit. play a different class go make a ranger since your so obsessed with them but dont ( especially after all your oh we are uber tanks posts ) try and say we have no role. Now the case is closed.</DIV>

DarkMirrax

06-24-2006, 11:39 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>whats you just said didnt make much sense. IN about 70% of your posts you try and say someone is missing some point. But ok lets pretend what you said did make sense. Just because you personally cant pull good dps doesnt mean I or any other bruiser cant. Im parsing up there pretty high. Do i Constantly out parse an assassin? no. Do i constantly outparse summoners or swashbucklers? no not constanly But i pull up pretty close behind them and on some mobs and in some cases i can pull ahead of them in dps. I NEVER ONCE said that giving us a dps buff instead of a scout would like totally make is the bestest dps ever d00d. no i merly said some buffs help some classes more so then others. IF you actually ever did research ever payed attention to parses to not just a class in its sellf but the person playing that class do on an average and what groups they are in. What buffs they have when it comes to dps, haste or procs maybe you would know this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bob the assassin could pull 1200 dps a fight while rick the assassin pulls 1500 both in the same group same buffs etc. That 300 dps could have been the difference between rick timeing his combat arts and bob going crazy just hitting random buttons spamming the crap out of everything. Equipment probably played a factor in it. theres so many things that could play a factor in ones dps that dont involve just buffs from other people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you need to get over your ranger obsession. Rangers were nerfed to nothingness. There dps is completly lacking atm and is a extremly bad thing to be bought of as a reference or comparrison to any dps related discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as far as we not having a raid roll thats wrong also. We along with being able ( and i say being able becuase maybe not all bruisers pull 1000 - 1500 dps but we are capable of it ) We can tank when stuff goes wrong like getting an add or the tank died. FD if need be to save from haveing either run back or fight back to where we were. We can avoid hits for a tank if need be poping our avoidance to 80% + helps more then you think when you have shake off on another tank ( generally an encounter that required 2 tanks 1 normally has me blocking for them ). If you seriously cant find a role for yourself as a bruiser. Quit. play a different class go make a ranger since your so obsessed with them but dont ( especially after all your oh we are uber tanks posts ) try and say we have no role. Now the case is closed.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The fact that your even coming close to the scouts shows that we arnt where we are supposed to be , the whole brusier vision needs to be addressed by a dev , are we dps or are we a tank ? It would be nice to know what class we actually are and dont give the usual jack of all trades cos that description is a swashie (ie can tank , util , dps etc) not us.</P> <P>So what is it </P> <P>a) DPS - If so we are seriously lacking , where should we fit and where should we be .. who knows really but i know that our whole build is a tank and as phay says meh dps thats what we should be. Now if the vision is for us to be dps then make it so and solve all the arguements.</P> <P>b) Tank -If so again we are lacking , as stated warriors get uber AA lines which increase their aviodance and in trade we get what ? yes thats right nothing. </P> <P>Either way we do have a role to fill in a raid and thats FD/Resser if theres not enough people online that turned up to raid. Dps Buff dont make me laugh your not serious dragorn are you we are on a raid for dps only you must be kidding ? we would get picked over a ranger/assasin for dps .. yea of course we would why not raid with 5 healers a guard and the rest bruisers then if we are that good.... If i hear one more person say if you dont like you class roll another .. CHECK THE SIG I HAVE ENOGUH TOONS AS IT IS and i love my brusier out of every class i play and if i want to fight to get my class to where we should be then goddammit im going to. Stop the bickering you two get over it ...</P>

Gungo

06-24-2006, 06:34 PM

<P>Dragorn you really are blind. You really need to stop playing with your [Removed for Content]. Take your own advice and look at the parses. <BR>PARSES are inherently FLAWED. they do not adequetly show where DPS is applied. SUre a bruiser can parse high. BUT HE PARSES HIGH with another classes buffs on him. AGAIN YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT. Parses give credit to the bruiser for the assasin applied poien buff. The coercer dps buff. The illusinist haste buff. Etc etc etc. THAT IS NOT OUR DPS. I am sure you get your jollies off on raiods looking at your INDIVIDUAL NUMBERS ON PARSERS. You seem to be a selfish and nieve person like that. But remeber this remove that bruiser from raid put in a REAL SCOUT class. ANd that scout will make the raids OVERall DPS higher then your l33t. 500 dps a bruiser adds. </P> <P>THat is the point the original poster was making which you still are entirely missing.</P> <P>Bruiser only bring thier own dps (~400-500solo) and a 24% group dps buff. That is all. Bruisers do not increase the raids DPS beyond that. scouts as a whole produce higher DIRECT dps numbers and increase the RAIDS overall dps more with their buffs and debuffs. </P>

J4k

06-24-2006, 06:41 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>whats you just said didnt make much sense. IN about 70% of your posts you try and say someone is missing some point. But ok lets pretend what you said did make sense. Just because you personally cant pull good dps doesnt mean I or any other bruiser cant. Im parsing up there pretty high. Do i Constantly out parse an assassin? no. Do i constantly outparse summoners or swashbucklers? no not constanly But i pull up pretty close behind them and on some mobs and in some cases i can pull ahead of them in dps. I NEVER ONCE said that giving us a dps buff instead of a scout would like totally make is the bestest dps ever d00d. no i merly said some buffs help some classes more so then others. IF you actually ever did research ever payed attention to parses to not just a class in its sellf but the person playing that class do on an average and what groups they are in. What buffs they have when it comes to dps, haste or procs maybe you would know this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bob the assassin could pull 1200 dps a fight while rick the assassin pulls 1500 both in the same group same buffs etc. That 300 dps could have been the difference between rick timeing his combat arts and bob going crazy just hitting random buttons spamming the crap out of everything. Equipment probably played a factor in it. theres so many things that could play a factor in ones dps that dont involve just buffs from other people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you need to get over your ranger obsession. Rangers were nerfed to nothingness. There dps is completly lacking atm and is a extremly bad thing to be bought of as a reference or comparrison to any dps related discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as far as we not having a raid roll thats wrong also. We along with being able ( and i say being able becuase maybe not all bruisers pull 1000 - 1500 dps but we are capable of it ) We can tank when stuff goes wrong like getting an add or the tank died. FD if need be to save from haveing either run back or fight back to where we were. We can avoid hits for a tank if need be poping our avoidance to 80% + helps more then you think when you have shake off on another tank ( generally an encounter that required 2 tanks 1 normally has me blocking for them ). If you seriously cant find a role for yourself as a bruiser. Quit. play a different class go make a ranger since your so obsessed with them but dont ( especially after all your oh we are uber tanks posts ) try and say we have no role. Now the case is closed.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffffff>The fact that your even coming close to the scouts shows that we arnt where we are supposed to be , the whole brusier vision needs to be addressed by a dev </FONT>, are we dps or are we a tank ? It would be nice to know what class we actually are and dont give the usual jack of all trades cos that description is a swashie (ie can tank , util , dps etc) not us.</P> <P>-<FONT color=#ffff00>Where exactly are we "SUPPOSED" to be? because 1 out of 20 bruisers can high high dps we arnt where we are supposed to be lol? Oh btw gl with your whole devs need a vision for a class that ant gunna roll with them. Sure they put classes in categories such as fighter are the obvious choice for a tank etc but from there it is your on vision of what you want to do that takes place. Also we are both dps and a tank. They are one we rely on our dps to tank although atm the aggro isnt quite comparrtive to the other tanks.</FONT></P> <P>So what is it </P> <P>a) DPS - If so we are seriously lacking , where should we fit and where should we be .. who knows really but i know that our whole build is a tank and as phay says meh dps thats what we should be. Now if the vision is for us to be dps then make it so and solve all the arguements.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>How are we lacking? We do have the capability of getting 1k - 1.5k dps i know because i can and do that much.</FONT></P> <P>b) Tank -If so again we are lacking , as stated warriors get uber AA lines which increase their aviodance and in trade we get what ? yes thats right nothing. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>We to can increase our avoidance and get it to a quite high amount of you put full 8 aa into parry and deflectin. ( im gunna say 85% maybe a little more. ) Yes a mitigation AA would be nice but honestly mitigation isnt my problem when tanking. The fact that other classes have 500 different ways of getting aggro vs out 2 taunts and dps/roughhousing is the biggest issue.</FONT></P> <P>Either way we do have a role to fill in a raid and thats FD/Resser if theres not enough people online that turned up to raid. Dps Buff dont make me laugh your not serious dragorn are you we are on a raid for dps only you must be kidding ? we would get picked over a ranger/assasin for dps .. yea of course we would why not raid with 5 healers a guard and the rest bruisers then if we are that good.... If i hear one more person say if you dont like you class roll another .. CHECK THE SIG I HAVE ENOGUH TOONS AS IT IS and i love my brusier out of every class i play and if i want to fight to get my class to where we should be then goddammit im going to. Stop the bickering you two get over it ...</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Congadulations on not being able to read? No where did i ever say we are here for DPS only. I didnt even mention that we are here for the dps in my post. Although the Group dps buff is liked very much in the dps group. For starters ME pulling 1000 - 1500 dps a fight is also buffing the rest of the group which in turn will be doing more dps now also. The fact is you have no idea where our class should be. We basically are there minus a little more hate gain. Before you try and think you know where a class should be play it a little more. You have 5 characters not one of which is lvl 70. I mean honestly how much can you know about what a class should be that you havnt even played enough to be 70 yet?</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As far as bickering goes i havnt a issue with gungo really. dunno or care if he has one with me but i merly just disagree with some of his views as he obviously does mine also.</DIV>

J4k

06-24-2006, 07:04 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Dragorn you really are blind. You really need to stop playing with your [Removed for Content]. Take your own advice and look at the parses. <BR>PARSES are inherently FLAWED. they do not adequetly show where DPS is applied. SUre a bruiser can parse high. BUT HE PARSES HIGH with another classes buffs on him. AGAIN YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT. Parses give credit to the bruiser for the assasin applied poien buff. The coercer dps buff. The illusinist haste buff. Etc etc etc. THAT IS NOT OUR DPS. I am sure you get your jollies off on raiods looking at your INDIVIDUAL NUMBERS ON PARSERS. You seem to be a selfish and nieve person like that. But remeber this remove that bruiser from raid put in a REAL SCOUT class. ANd that scout will make the raids OVERall DPS higher then your l33t. 500 dps a bruiser adds. </P> <P>THat is the point the original poster was making which you still are entirely missing.</P> <P>Bruiser only bring thier own dps (~400-500solo) and a 24% group dps buff. That is all. Bruisers do not increase the raids DPS beyond that. scouts as a whole produce higher DIRECT dps numbers and increase the RAIDS overall dps more with their buffs and debuffs. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Last i checked SOLO dps has nothing to do with the discussion which is about our dps in a raid. OMG IM MISSIONG THE POINT WHY DONT DONT MAKE AN EFFECTIVE POINT INSTEAD OF TALKING OUT YOUR BUTTOCKS. do you know what a raid is by chance? its a combined 4 groups that work together to fight evil and protect the world from nasty things!! RAWR. Well in this here raid you work together as a team be it helping each other do more dps, tank better LAND YOUR DEBUFFS better. You know without certain other classes half those debuffs your obsessing over wouldnt land alot so maybe 50% of the fight would be without that particular debuff.</P> <P>Useing your loging No tank is actually tanking anything. The templar. the druid, the shaman they are actually tanking the mobbecause it is there heals and there buffs keeping him alive. You can post that im missing the point 100 times the fact is you change your point ever 5 minutes. first we are talking about raid dps now you got your jollies up on solo dps and all of a sudden you a person argueing we are great tanks ohh is now saying we fit no role.</P> <P>Ill say it again This whole arguement is about YOU NOT FITTING A ROLE IN YOUR RAID. That is selfish. you are basing ALL your opinions on the fact that YOU or your guild thinks your no good and are worthless in a raid. Now a high majority of my opinions are based of things WE are capable of maybe not all bruisers are doing it but your are very capable of it. Second parses wether you like it or not the buff helping you dps its still your dps. i give them dps to i debuff the mobs crushing slashing and piercing so the tank will get hit a few less times. </P> <P>And why are you obessing with [Removed for Content] now all of a sudden. kinda freakin me out.</P><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 AM</span>

Gungo

06-24-2006, 07:54 PM

<DIV>n/t</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:06 AM</span>

Gungo

06-24-2006, 08:03 PM

<P>I am not changing the topic the problem is you lack the simple comprhension to understand that. Bruisers direct dps is basically their solo dps and the dps related to thier Dps buff. Now when the bruiser comes to a raid. And the illusinist places that 46% haste on the bruiser. Who do you associate that DPS too?</P> <P>Do you associate that dps to the illusinsit since it was his buff that made the dps go up or the bruiser?<BR>Parsers associate the DPS to the bruiser. Which is why Parsers are inherently flawed.<BR>But if the bruiser never went to the raid. The illusinsit still has that buff. The illusinist will then place that buff on another class.<BR>More then likely a scout. Guess what happens to the raids DPS. Little to no change. Why because that haste buf fprovided by the illusinsit never left the raid with the bruiser. That appleid DPS is still in the raid and brought to the raid by the illusinist. <BR></P> <P>hence the original poster point that bruiser do not bring a tanking or DPS role to raids. Wether i agree with him or not is not the issue. It was the fact you are to dumb to understand him.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

J4k

06-24-2006, 09:50 PM

<DIV>So we bring nothing to the table as far as dps is concerned hmm? 24% dps buff last i checked wasnt bad. Different between us and a enchanter is along with the 24% dps buff we bring Damage with us. that 24%. Your making a dps group would you rather put a non dps class in for a buff or put a class that can do dps and also bring a dps buff with them. It may be half that of a coercer but we also bring our own raw dps to. me + inquisor + either a illusionist or bard you will have yourself a mighty fine dps group. More people dealing dps that can bring buffs then just people there to buff bot. and the topic of this thread is we need a slot to fill. Our dps isnt the only thing we can do. Along with dealing out dps bring a dps buff to the raid and a debuff we can if needed tank the mob if we get an add or the tank died. Now other classes bring debuffs yes you said it but we bring out own thing to the raid. You arnt going to have your little bringand tanking if the tank goes down. hes not going to get aggro on an add if one was to come. You can call people dumb and think they dont comprehend things all day long. Fact is you continue to say we play no role. Maybe you dont i do. I know what im capable of. I know i can dish out close to that of scouts dps ( about 200 - 400 difference occasionally more) along with helping there dps out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you are the one that doesnt comprehend that we are capapble of dishing out more then the low [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] numbers that you keep posting. Maybe you dont know how or dont have the skill to but we are capable of it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as far as your obsession with solo dps and buffs. Buffs are there to enhance other classes dps. Thats there role in the raid. As a fighter or scout our role is to except the buffs and use them to the best of our ability to produce the best results.. IE Damage or tanking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically it boils down to this. You dont do alot of damage probably what 700 - 900 so you auto assume crap we are useless for dps. I and i know ive talked to other bruisers who can pull 1k - 1.5k its possible to do. These numbers arnt that far from that of scouts. Now add that damage to the ability to tank a mob if the tank died. Tank a mob if you get an add or even tank a mob that constantly mem blurs ( something no scout can do ). Now add both those to the ability to esentially save time on raids if [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] goes wrong by FDing. Now Along with those 3 things WE can if a fight required 2 tanks and you arnt necessarily going to be one of them, we can throw shrug off on the tank and if its a paladin build aggro for him and bam your helping him keep aggro + probably blocking a good portion of hits. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the Original post sais Oh we dont dps and we dont tank. Well i just listed 5 things we do on raids 2 of which includ being CAPABLE of doing high dps and tanking. explain to me what slot dont we fill on a raid?</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

Gungo

06-25-2006, 05:11 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>So we bring nothing to the table as far as dps is concerned hmm? 24% dps buff last i checked wasnt bad. Different between us and a enchanter is along with the 24% dps buff we bring Damage with us. that 24%. Your making a dps group would you rather put a non dps class in for a buff or put a class that can do dps and also bring a dps buff with them. It may be half that of a coercer but we also bring our own raw dps to. me + inquisor + either a illusionist or bard you will have yourself a mighty fine dps group. More people dealing dps that can bring buffs then just people there to buff bot. and the topic of this thread is we need a slot to fill. Our dps isnt the only thing we can do. Along with dealing out dps bring a dps buff to the raid and a debuff we can if needed tank the mob if we get an add or the tank died. Now other classes bring debuffs yes you said it but we bring out own thing to the raid. You arnt going to have your little bringand tanking if the tank goes down. hes not going to get aggro on an add if one was to come. You can call people dumb and think they dont comprehend things all day long. Fact is you continue to say we play no role. Maybe you dont i do. I know what im capable of. I know i can dish out close to that of scouts dps ( about 200 - 400 difference occasionally more) along with helping there dps out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you are the one that doesnt comprehend that we are capapble of dishing out more then the low [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] numbers that you keep posting. Maybe you dont know how or dont have the skill to but we are capable of it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as far as your obsession with solo dps and buffs. Buffs are there to enhance other classes dps. Thats there role in the raid. As a fighter or scout our role is to except the buffs and use them to the best of our ability to produce the best results.. IE Damage or tanking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically it boils down to this. You dont do alot of damage probably what 700 - 900 so you auto assume crap we are useless for dps. I and i know ive talked to other bruisers who can pull 1k - 1.5k its possible to do. These numbers arnt that far from that of scouts. Now add that damage to the ability to tank a mob if the tank died. Tank a mob if you get an add or even tank a mob that constantly mem blurs ( something no scout can do ). Now add both those to the ability to esentially save time on raids if [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] goes wrong by FDing. Now Along with those 3 things WE can if a fight required 2 tanks and you arnt necessarily going to be one of them, we can throw shrug off on the tank and if its a paladin build aggro for him and bam your helping him keep aggro + probably blocking a good portion of hits. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the Original post sais Oh we dont dps and we dont tank. Well i just listed 5 things we do on raids 2 of which includ being CAPABLE of doing high dps and tanking. explain to me what slot dont we fill on a raid?</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by J4kik on <SPAN class=date_text>06-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never said i agree or disagree with the original poster. Although you do like to assume about me and my playstyle alot. You know what they say about people that assume. Anyway my DPS numbers are fine i am regularly on the parse. But back on topic I understand what the original poster was saying. Now you talk about us backup tanking and other crap. But what the original poster was saying is other classes can backuptank better then a bruiser. Other classes dps better then a bruiser, other classes buff dps and has the same debuff higher then bruiser. For instance using your points<BR>I see how you consistently mention placing inqusitors, illusinist and bards just to make it seem liek you produce DPS. That is th eentire point you keep missing. YOU need other classes to increase your dps to be comparable in raids. You need the illusinost etc to place us on the top of parses. Heck i have done it as well i have been on the top of parses. But you said it yourself before even a guardian can be on the top of parses if he gets the same buffs. <BR>our debuff swashies have the same debuff only alot better and do more DPS.<BR><BR>Our dps buff is essientally one of the lowest dps buffs. Inqusitors. coercers, heck even zerkers give a better dps buff.<BR><BR>our offtanking well zerkers/paladins can offtank or MT better. Monks can rescue and tsunami which gives the raid at least 15secs. to get a secondary tank or mt back up. SO who offtanks better?<BR><BR>For memwiping mobs you can use a paladin or SK or monk to do just as good or better of a job. Sk hate dots work well for memwipes as does amends. Actually any tank can handle mem wipes with the use of a certain class, but i am sure you know that.<BR><BR>for shrug off seriouly if it is so good how many times have you been placed in the MT group to shrug off the MT? Any fighter can shrug off and off more. Use a paldin instead he can block buff a good portion, ward, heal, wis buff, and mtigation buff the tank.<BR><BR>basically it boils down to your inability to see the original persons point. And your assumptions about other people to prove a point you have no basis on. You like to assume other do not know how to play thier class just to make yourself seem special. You feel the need to say how good you are to prove yourself. When in fact a person who knows what they are doing has no need to brag about such feats. You don't see me here posting how i hit 1800 dps on raids or how i tank this mob or that. You don't see me posting how i regularly save raids by jumping in during mem wipes. Or if the tank falls jumping in rescuign agro and off tankign many named until the mt is back up. I don't need to sit here and brag or porve myself especially to you. I do very well. Possibly to well, then again i am not nieve enough to see other people points of view.<BR><BR>I never said i agree with the original poster, but he does have a valid concern when he says we do not bring a dps or tank role in riads and as such have no real role. Which has been the point of many brawlers complaints on these boards. Basically he is saying we are not the best in any one field and he believes we are not necesary in raids because another class can fill that need better then us. Its a very valid concern just not one i agree with.<BR><BR></P>

Deeds

06-25-2006, 05:54 PM

<P>LOL, some of these posts make me laugh.</P> <P>I have a 70 bruiser (dps AA set up) and a 70 brigand and we raid 5 times a week. On raids, let me just say that my brigand's dps, blows the bruiser away, and i bring A LOT more to the raid. </P> <P>It is simple really, as a brigand I can use many different poisons, AND I have de-agro skills that a bruiser does not ( yes you can fd to drop agro, but you will lose dps).</P> <P> </P>

J4k

06-25-2006, 07:02 PM

<DIV>Gungo your obsession with missing points is ming boggeling. Everyone who disagrees with the dumb things you say is missing the point. You say we rely other classes buff to be comparable? are you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing stupid? You see scouts in groups solo with no buffs pulling 1500 dps? they rely on buffs just as much as the next guy. And then you say you can call people dumb and think they dont comprehend thigns all day long?....... all you ever say is oohh man you miss the point which in other words your saying you have not effing idea what your saying [Removed for Content]. Now if you actually read my post i said generally if a raid required 2 mobs to be tanked generally im in one of the tank group either blocking the tank of tanking. ALSO if Over time a bruiser can produce a greater amount of aggro the just about any other tank that will be in your raid other then the main tank. Simple our hate come from DPS. Most others comes from taunting if your other fighters are taunting through the fight they are dumb. I in the other hand and constantly building aggro through the fight not needing to taunt. So if the MT goes down i get aggro simple as that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And how many times have you actually used shrug off? Ive used it quite a few times and have then asked how much you noticed me blocking and the numbers are quite high. Most people yourself obviously including doesnt realise that its actually a great buff THUS why you never really see us in the MT group. But it a roll we can play. Not to mention any fighter can shrug off yes but no fighter can get there avoidance to 85% which if you actually ever used it instead of talking about something you havent a clue about youd know it actually does a pretty nice job at blocking attacks. Also lets take into account a zone like... halls of seeing. Lets say 2 of your tanks just got smacked for a rediculous amount of damage. Oh good thing you got a scout there instead of the bruiser to dps the mob while it whipes the raid. OR rather have a bruiser there who can get the aggro and potentiall avoid ever being 1shot by the mob due to his avoidance. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i dont see how you cant comprehend that we are capable of pulling dps close to scouts. If your tank can actually keep aggro you shouldnt have to worry about FDing to lose aggro.i pull 1k - 1500dmg rarly pull aggro. If i do it can just flip the mob and tank it another thing a scout cant do very well. Basically the post is about we cant dps and we cant tank? Well we CAN dps you and we CAN tank. All you guys are argueing is that You dont know how to dps and your guild either wont let you tank or you dont know how to tank either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing ive been trying to say this entire time is this thread shouldnt be WE as a class cant do something but rather it should be that YOU cant find something to do or your guild wont let you do anything. I listen 5 things plust heres more we can do. Scouts can debuff and attack mobs thats 2 things grats them compared to the 5 things i listen plus probable more i didnt list i think we got it quite well. </DIV>

Gungo

06-25-2006, 07:11 PM

<P>All i have to say and i will leave it at this. One of the main concerns in the bruiser community is that we are not the best at any one thing. We are not the best dps nor are we the best at anythign else we offer. Some people feel That since we are not the best at any specific role we are not truly necessary in raids. This concern has been posted many times before. I do not necessarily agreee with it myself. But that does not mean it is not a valid concern. JUst look at this thred other then me and you going back and forth you have had several other brawlers tell you the same thing i am telling you. Yet you consistantly turn a blind eye to what they are saying. You keep spamming the same crap w/o addressing what they are saying. Hence why i keep telling you that you are missing the point. Its either you don't understand the issue or you don't agree and are unable to state your position witout looking liek you have no clue.</P> <P>And yes you are still missing what peopel are saying i understand what you are saying that all classes get buffs and how buffs work. What you don't understand is for instance a scout class produces higher direct DPS and makes the classes they are grouped with dps go up substantially more through thier buffs and debuffs. This utility a bruiser does not have (except for thier dps buff) as such scouts will produce higher dps and are more saught after then bruisers. You don't have to take my word for it. Just open your eyes. Why do raid guilds not need or want mroe then 1 bruiser? Why do some raid guild not eve recruit bruisers (eternal chaos) etc. Is everyone in the game wrong and you correct? are bruiser this leet dps class no one sees but you? Or are you being blind to concerns brought up by other People.</P> <P>The sad part is your posts are full of insults swears and self congratulatory points w/o any real points. It lacks any substance and frankly makes you look childish and stupid. The fact that you keep saying we don't know how to play and that you are the exception proves this point entirely.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>The reason people dont place bruisers in the mt for shrug off is not because it is not better. My guild does use a crusdaers avodi buff But while the paladin can get ~60+% avoid, he cna also ward/heal, mtigation buff, and stat buff wis, dps proc buff, etc. It is not that every raid guild doesnt know a brawlers avoid buff is not better its because other fighters offer more in that area and are better. </SPAN></P> <P>the next point you brought up about offtanking. You act like there is not other better suited fighters on raids. While i do offtank when i can. I do realise in those situations other classes are better, monks can rescue and tsunami which will provide 15secs of imunity, zerkers can offtank better then a brawler, while they can only hit ~70% avoid in a mt group setup they can hit 80+% mtigation. They also have a death immunity and better taunting skills. I cna lay down the facts for yo u but if your goign to ignore everyone then there is no point really.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Once again becuase you keep missing this point. I do regularly hit the top 5 on parses. I do offtank when i cna and help on mem wipes. I do play well. But i do realise i only hit the top 10 on parses because i ask ofr the furies buff or inq buff, the assasin proc or conjuror proc, I ask for the illusinist haste or coercer dps buff. Now what i do realise and you don't understand is that since scouts have a higher base auto atk and higher direct dps then a bruiser that if i didnt ask for these buffs and instead these buffs where placed on a swash brignad etc. It would actually be more overall dps for the raid. at this same point the brawler doe svery little to increase the over all raids dps. whereas scouts buffs and debuffs increase the raid alot more. Just using the brigands debuff for an example can raise your overall raids dps by several thousand DPS. Once you realise a bruisers DPS is not that number you see on ACT. But in fact associated to other classes. Then you will realise we are not a true dps class. But then again that has always been your standing that bruisers are a dps class that is a better tank then scouts casters. Where my standing is we are a tank that will always be less dps then scouts and casters. Utlimately two different sides of the same coin.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:40 AM</span>

Deeds

06-25-2006, 07:27 PM

<P>Dragorn, the 1k-1.5k dps you do in the ideal group, with 5 others in your grp puting all their dps buffs on you (inq, illusionist etc.) my Brigand can do in a grp with 5 templars. The point is, any good scout does not need the IDEAL grp make up to pull excellent dps. A bruiser does.</P> <P>Oh and just about everything you said you can do on a raid, a well played berserker can do better, and is a better tank. (except the fd, ofcourse)</P> <P>I switched to a scout for raiding because a bruiser just did not bring enough to the table for raids. We already had a MT and a secondary tank and if you are not in the ideal dps grp, you kinda feel like a red headed step child.</P> <P>So yes, having a roll to fill, is a valid concern for a lot of bruisers.</P> <P> </P>

DarkMirrax

06-26-2006, 11:41 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>whats you just said didnt make much sense. IN about 70% of your posts you try and say someone is missing some point. But ok lets pretend what you said did make sense. Just because you personally cant pull good dps doesnt mean I or any other bruiser cant. Im parsing up there pretty high. Do i Constantly out parse an assassin? no. Do i constantly outparse summoners or swashbucklers? no not constanly But i pull up pretty close behind them and on some mobs and in some cases i can pull ahead of them in dps. I NEVER ONCE said that giving us a dps buff instead of a scout would like totally make is the bestest dps ever d00d. no i merly said some buffs help some classes more so then others. IF you actually ever did research ever payed attention to parses to not just a class in its sellf but the person playing that class do on an average and what groups they are in. What buffs they have when it comes to dps, haste or procs maybe you would know this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bob the assassin could pull 1200 dps a fight while rick the assassin pulls 1500 both in the same group same buffs etc. That 300 dps could have been the difference between rick timeing his combat arts and bob going crazy just hitting random buttons spamming the crap out of everything. Equipment probably played a factor in it. theres so many things that could play a factor in ones dps that dont involve just buffs from other people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you need to get over your ranger obsession. Rangers were nerfed to nothingness. There dps is completly lacking atm and is a extremly bad thing to be bought of as a reference or comparrison to any dps related discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as far as we not having a raid roll thats wrong also. We along with being able ( and i say being able becuase maybe not all bruisers pull 1000 - 1500 dps but we are capable of it ) We can tank when stuff goes wrong like getting an add or the tank died. FD if need be to save from haveing either run back or fight back to where we were. We can avoid hits for a tank if need be poping our avoidance to 80% + helps more then you think when you have shake off on another tank ( generally an encounter that required 2 tanks 1 normally has me blocking for them ). If you seriously cant find a role for yourself as a bruiser. Quit. play a different class go make a ranger since your so obsessed with them but dont ( especially after all your oh we are uber tanks posts ) try and say we have no role. Now the case is closed.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffffff>The fact that your even coming close to the scouts shows that we arnt where we are supposed to be , the whole brusier vision needs to be addressed by a dev </FONT>, are we dps or are we a tank ? It would be nice to know what class we actually are and dont give the usual jack of all trades cos that description is a swashie (ie can tank , util , dps etc) not us.</P> <P>-<FONT color=#ffff00>Where exactly are we "SUPPOSED" to be? because 1 out of 20 bruisers can high high dps we arnt where we are supposed to be lol? Oh btw gl with your whole devs need a vision for a class that ant gunna roll with them. Sure they put classes in categories such as fighter are the obvious choice for a tank etc but from there it is your on vision of what you want to do that takes place. Also we are both dps and a tank. They are one we rely on our dps to tank although atm the aggro isnt quite comparrtive to the other tanks.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>/Do you even read whats posted or just see litle parts of the point ? So becasue a 1-20 brusiers can hit good dps thats it is it ? thats where we should be or is that just YOUR opinion mate ? the whole question WE CANT ANSWER mate IT CAN ONLY BE ANSWERED BY A DEV, what gives you the right to decide what we are ? And as for the devs need a vision i can be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure that we will be made into tanks , not dps but tanks.</FONT></P> <P>So what is it </P> <P>a) DPS - If so we are seriously lacking , where should we fit and where should we be .. who knows really but i know that our whole build is a tank and as phay says meh dps thats what we should be. Now if the vision is for us to be dps then make it so and solve all the arguements.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>How are we lacking? We do have the capability of getting 1k - 1.5k dps i know because i can and do that much.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>/And ? is that close to a zerker dishing 2k ? or an assassin ? erm nope so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] , we have one debuff and no util.</FONT></P> <P>b) Tank -If so again we are lacking , as stated warriors get uber AA lines which increase their aviodance and in trade we get what ? yes thats right nothing. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>We to can increase our avoidance and get it to a quite high amount of you put full 8 aa into parry and deflectin. ( im gunna say 85% maybe a little more. ) Yes a mitigation AA would be nice but honestly mitigation isnt my problem when tanking. The fact that other classes have 500 different ways of getting aggro vs out 2 taunts and dps/roughhousing is the biggest issue.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>/You might want to learn how to TANK then made cos your so het up on doing dps you dont know you role , dont spout bs about me not knowing what i play when you struggle to hold aggro , most brusiers are fine holding aggro. Oh btw whats the avoidance cap mate ?</FONT></P> <P>Either way we do have a role to fill in a raid and thats FD/Resser if theres not enough people online that turned up to raid. Dps Buff dont make me laugh your not serious dragorn are you we are on a raid for dps only you must be kidding ? we would get picked over a ranger/assasin for dps .. yea of course we would why not raid with 5 healers a guard and the rest bruisers then if we are that good.... If i hear one more person say if you dont like you class roll another .. CHECK THE SIG I HAVE ENOGUH TOONS AS IT IS and i love my brusier out of every class i play and if i want to fight to get my class to where we should be then goddammit im going to. Stop the bickering you two get over it ...</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Congadulations on not being able to read? No where did i ever say we are here for DPS only. I didnt even mention that we are here for the dps in my post. Although the Group dps buff is liked very much in the dps group. For starters ME pulling 1000 - 1500 dps a fight is also buffing the rest of the group which in turn will be doing more dps now also. The fact is you have no idea where our class should be. We basically are there minus a little more hate gain. Before you try and think you know where a class should be play it a little more. You have 5 characters not one of which is lvl 70. I mean honestly how much can you know about what a class should be that you havnt even played enough to be 70 yet?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ff6600>/And you idea is that we should be dps and nothing else is that what you want ? go play an assassin mate it would really suit your playstyle better. Play my brusier a little more hahaha dont make me laugh i've played him the release of the game mate I dont think i need to prove myslef to you and if you base your argument on the fact that i dont have an uber lvl 70 in my sig you are more foolish than you look if you like i can fully update my sig for you if it makes all the differernce to you .. oh and btw i also have 70 warden , 70 defiler , 69 monk , 56 ranger on test if you want to compare [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sizes to let me know</FONT> </FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As far as bickering goes i havnt a issue with gungo really. dunno or care if he has one with me but i merly just disagree with some of his views as he obviously does mine also.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gotta love the whole lot of BS that you spout mate fair play , Every single thing you write is etiher wrong or crap. Such a shame and yes that is a personal attack on you for a change as you seem so intent on doing it. Rather than focus on the issue you just come up with the same old drivel /meh mate its a game , thought you had a hot mrs and big $££" ? go use em and leave the playing to the big boys not 14 year olds. Daddy pay well for your ebay toon btw ??

DarkMirrax

06-26-2006, 11:45 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deedbit wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5>Dragorn, the 1k-1.5k dps you do in the ideal group, with 5 others in your grp puting all their dps buffs on you (inq, illusionist etc.) my Brigand can do in a grp with 5 templars. The point is, any good scout does not need the IDEAL grp make up to pull excellent dps. A bruiser does.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5>Oh and just about everything you said you can do on a raid, a well played berserker can do better, and is a better tank. (except the fd, ofcourse)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5>I switched to a scout for raiding because a bruiser just did not bring enough to the table for raids. We already had a MT and a secondary tank and if you are not in the ideal dps grp, you kinda feel like a red headed step child.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5>So yes, having a roll to fill, is a valid concern for a lot of bruisers.</FONT></P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Btw Dagorn you might want to read the above post its the most sence yet , plus its short and sweet so even your brain can take it in ....</P> <P>if fact ill enlarge it aswell just to be sure you dont miss anything oh and put it in a preeeeeety color for u</P>

J4k

06-26-2006, 06:30 PM

<P>Actually I never said i pull 1k - 1.5k in an ideal group. Im rarly in an ideal group which would max out my dps and haste. Thanks for assuming you know something. Now All you have done here is prove my point in previous threads. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5>Oh and just about everything you said you can do on a raid, a well played berserker can do better, and is a better tank. (except the fd, ofcourse)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=1>A well played zerker can do about anything better? Hmmm overpowered? yes they are but maybe you need to learn to play your bruiser better? I over a fight build up much more aggro then that of a berserker on a single target mob. Thus if the MT dies it goes to me. Berserkers avoidance buff doesnt come close to ours. You can sit here and say oh you have no brain so ill enlarge my text for you. If you cant comprehend that we do have roles to play you are the one with no brain. Sure zerkers like ive said many times over and you just basically proved my point they are over powered and need changed. Also ive seen nice parses from quite a few other raiding guilds so dont sit here and</FONT> say a brigand will pull 1.5k dps in a group of 5 templars. Sure maybe back when you could use a 2handed wurm slayer as a 1hander double attacking. </P> <P>You play a scout and are arueing you know so much about a bruiser? What your really saying is you sucked so bad as a bruiser that you had to switch to a different class. I dont need an ideal group to pull 1K + dps. You guys sit and and look at what only YOU can do as far as tanking and dps but dont see theres bruisers out there who can do high dps and tank just as well as a berserker. ( except on multi mobs )</P> <P>Now i will say berserkers dps is a bit overpowered which does have alot to do with there AA's being far superior to just about any classes. </P> <P>Oh and dakrmirrax how much raiding do you actually do if you have 5 level 70 chars? How much time do you actually spend on your bruiser? Dont act like you know something plz</P> <P>Basically this threads pointless now. People who dont even play bruisers anymore or not enough to know anything acting like they do.</P>

Gungo

06-26-2006, 06:49 PM

<P>Thats classic dragorn. This thread is pointless because people don't agree with your un substantiated opinion. Way to prove a point there bud. i still love how you completely ignore a valid argument and keep stateing how you are the exception to all bruisers. It gets better and better the more you write.</P> <P>Here is the problem you faield to address:</P> <P>"</P> <P>All i have to say and i will leave it at this. One of the main concerns in the bruiser community is that we are not the best at any one thing. We are not the best dps nor are we the best at anythign else we offer. Some people feel That since we are not the best at any specific role we are not truly necessary in raids. This concern has been posted many times before. I do not necessarily agreee with it myself. But that does not mean it is not a valid concern. JUst look at this thred other then me and you going back and forth you have had several other brawlers tell you the same thing i am telling you. Yet you consistantly turn a blind eye to what they are saying. You keep spamming the same crap w/o addressing what they are saying. Hence why i keep telling you that you are missing the point. Its either you don't understand the issue or you don't agree and are unable to state your position witout looking liek you have no clue.</P> <P>And yes you are still missing what peopel are saying i understand what you are saying that all classes get buffs and how buffs work. What you don't understand is for instance a scout class produces higher direct DPS and makes the classes they are grouped with dps go up substantially more through thier buffs and debuffs. This utility a bruiser does not have (except for thier dps buff) as such scouts will produce higher dps and are more saught after then bruisers. You don't have to take my word for it. Just open your eyes. Why do raid guilds not need or want mroe then 1 bruiser? Why do some raid guild not eve recruit bruisers (eternal chaos) etc. Is everyone in the game wrong and you correct? are bruiser this leet dps class no one sees but you? Or are you being blind to concerns brought up by other People.</P> <P>The sad part is your posts are full of insults swears and self congratulatory points w/o any real points. It lacks any substance and frankly makes you look childish and stupid. The fact that you keep saying we don't know how to play and that you are the exception proves this point entirely.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>The reason people dont place bruisers in the mt for shrug off is not because it is not better. My guild does use a crusdaers avodi buff But while the paladin can get ~60+% avoid, he cna also ward/heal, mtigation buff, and stat buff wis, dps proc buff, etc. It is not that every raid guild doesnt know a brawlers avoid buff is not better its because other fighters offer more in that area and are better. </SPAN></P> <P>the next point you brought up about offtanking. You act like there is not other better suited fighters on raids. While i do offtank when i can. I do realise in those situations other classes are better, monks can rescue and tsunami which will provide 15secs of imunity, zerkers can offtank better then a brawler, while they can only hit ~70% avoid in a mt group setup they can hit 80+% mtigation. They also have a death immunity and better taunting skills. I cna lay down the facts for yo u but if your goign to ignore everyone then there is no point really.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Once again becuase you keep missing this point. I do regularly hit the top 5 on parses. I do offtank when i cna and help on mem wipes. I do play well. But i do realise i only hit the top 10 on parses because i ask ofr the furies buff or inq buff, the assasin proc or conjuror proc, I ask for the illusinist haste or coercer dps buff. Now what i do realise and you don't understand is that since scouts have a higher base auto atk and higher direct dps then a bruiser that if i didnt ask for these buffs and instead these buffs where placed on a swash brignad etc. It would actually be more overall dps for the raid. at this same point the brawler doe svery little to increase the over all raids dps. whereas scouts buffs and debuffs increase the raid alot more. Just using the brigands debuff for an example can raise your overall raids dps by several thousand DPS. Once you realise a bruisers DPS is not that number you see on ACT. But in fact associated to other classes. Then you will realise we are not a true dps class. But then again that has always been your standing that bruisers are a dps class that is a better tank then scouts casters. Where my standing is we are a tank that will always be less dps then scouts and casters. Utlimately two different sides of the same coin."</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:50 AM</span>

DarkMirrax

06-26-2006, 07:00 PM

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <P>Actually I never said i pull 1k - 1.5k in an ideal group. Im rarly in an ideal group which would max out my dps and haste. Thanks for assuming you know something. Now All you have done here is prove my point in previous threads. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5>Oh and just about everything you said you can do on a raid, a well played berserker can do better, and is a better tank. (except the fd, ofcourse)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=1>A well played zerker can do about anything better? Hmmm overpowered? yes they are but maybe you need to learn to play your bruiser better? I over a fight build up much more aggro then that of a berserker on a single target mob. Thus if the MT dies it goes to me. Berserkers avoidance buff doesnt come close to ours. You can sit here and say oh you have no brain so ill enlarge my text for you. If you cant comprehend that we do have roles to play you are the one with no brain. Sure zerkers like ive said many times over and you just basically proved my point they are over powered and need changed. Also ive seen nice parses from quite a few other raiding guilds so dont sit here and</FONT> say a brigand will pull 1.5k dps in a group of 5 templars. Sure maybe back when you could use a 2handed wurm slayer as a 1hander double attacking. </P> <P>You play a scout and are arueing you know so much about a bruiser? What your really saying is you sucked so bad as a bruiser that you had to switch to a different class. I dont need an ideal group to pull 1K + dps. You guys sit and and look at what only YOU can do as far as tanking and dps but dont see theres bruisers out there who can do high dps and tank just as well as a berserker. ( except on multi mobs )</P> <P>Now i will say berserkers dps is a bit overpowered which does have alot to do with there AA's being far superior to just about any classes. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Question If we can tank just as well as a zerker and they are overpowered what does that make us ? </FONT></P> <P>Oh and dakrmirrax how much raiding do you actually do if you have 5 level 70 chars? How much time do you actually spend on your bruiser? Dont act like you know something plz</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Raid Only 3 Maybe 4 times a week mate , its enough for me to keep it interesting rather than just doing it ... theres plenty more to the game than just raiding , everyone needs a hobby and mines alts. Total Count is 6 lvl 70s mate .. I enjoy the game. Only raid with 2 toons my brusier and my defiler as a rule unless we are short a toon then the raid has a choice of replacement :smileyvery-happy: I dont need uber lewt to prove I can play as most dont , phay wasnt the best equipt brusier yet hes one of the best ?</FONT></P> <P>Basically this threads pointless now. People who dont even play bruisers anymore or not enough to know anything acting like they do.</P><FONT color=#ffff00>/As mentioned I Love my brusier out of a lot of toons i have hes far and away the best one ... but when u hit 70 and dont want to raid 24/7 you need something else to do ... so for me its alts for you its raiding but doesnt mean i dont know the class as well as you im not so ignorant to assume you know nothing because in a lot of your reposes you show you do know , theres just no need to be so hostile we are all brusiers here :smileywink:</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hehehe Gungo i like his posts tbh , keeps me amused :smileyvery-happy:

DarkMirrax

06-26-2006, 07:01 PM

<DIV>btw quick edit gungo !</DIV>

J4k

06-26-2006, 11:02 PM

<DIV>Actually the thread is pointless because every post is the same now. Im still trying to convice you of the same thing and you continue to act like people are missing your points so you jus trepost your point again. As far as berserkers being over powered i never said what part of them is over powered so i will clarify. There dps is what really stands out and shouldnt. They can pull about 500 - 800 more dps on a group mob then us vs our 200 -300 more on single targets Mainly due to there AA line which like i said was Far far superior to any other fighter classes aa lines something i think needs to be looked at. And i will agree our class isnt the " Best " at any one thing but Really i like the class not being the best at any one thing because that just shows how much more skill it takes become the best at them. I mean you got guardians and berserkers who you can put a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] behind and they will still beable to play the class great because for one they get so many increase hate buttons that it would be hard not to get aggro. Then there AA lines give them increase dps and honestly they have better dps AA's then most dps classes. But then if you as a bruiser or monk can perform your tanking and dps just as good as them if not better thats just shows the amount of skill you have as a player. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally like a class where it takes a certain amount of skill to be the best at something rather then it being hand fed to us like some other classes. As far as roles are concerned we can perform many roles but unlike some other classes it does take alot more effort to perform them at par with a warrior class or a scout class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically what i see when people say " Oh we need a buff to make us stand out and make us wanted" I see you saying I want a buff so i can have an excuse as to why i cant tank or why im not doing dps but rather i can just buff someone and turn auto attack on while i pick my nose and try and fling the booger at something. Now you can say im missing a point i need bold letters to read i have no brain what ever you think makes you feel better but thats what i see when people keep saying we need some buff. Id rather be known as the bruiser who can perform any task as good as a guardian or berserker due to skill and dedication to the class and perfecting that skill then know as the guy whos in the healer group cause he has some + 500 to all heals or the guy in the dps group because he transfers all his damage to a scout to make them perform super godlike. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i can honestly see after some of the numbers posted here after seeing other guilds parses not just on my server but on others of bruisers dps and just by talking to some in game why people would want some uber buff or some weird [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that would make people want us but when it comes down to it we have the capability of being wanted and being assigned to any role we want we just have to prove that we are capable. Afer seeing parses and talking to people i wont say they suck for parsing low or not being able to tank but they just either arnt equiped or dont really take the time to learn what combat arts to use when how to time your combat arts, what weapons to use on what fights, what armor to use on what fights and what classes can you group with to not only enhance your dps but also others in your group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as far as buffs are concerned you can say scouts dont need buffs blaa i can be in a group with 500 templars and pull 2k dps well all your saying by that is pretty much every class but your brigand and your assassins are useless. By saying they dont need buffs to pull extreme high damage why not fill a raid with just them get rid of any buffer put 4 or 5 healers and a tank and go. thats what your saying point missed or not thats it and its wrong. Every class relys on buffs some more then others. Scouts from my experience like there proc buffs more so then there dps and haste procs. I personally love having my dps and hatse buffs. Ive seen the differences with scouts being buffed up with dps and haste vs me being buffed with dps and haste and the damage increase for me is higher. Now give a scout a bunch of procs there dps sky rockets compared to mine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And gungo the thing you fail to see is im not basing my entire posts over just DPS. You target that one thing and start bickering about it every time. As far as more then 1 bruiser in a guild? I dont think there should be more then one of any fighter class in a guild other then maybe have a guardian and berserker. EC has 2 monks which is 1 more brawler class then id personally have in a guild. Now if you really wanna know why people may not want a bruiser or want 2 bruisers or a bruiser and monk is because people like you people who will sit here say how useless we are as a class and wonder hmm why dont i get groups hmm why dont guilds want me or more then 1 of me HMMMMMMMMM. How about prove to them why they should want you rather then crying you actually have to work hard to be the best rather then having your hand held like other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im glad you know what other classes can do. but like i said if the tank died your most likly going to be next on the hate list i normally am. IF a mob mem whipes you have just as good a chance to get the aggro as the next tank. We can be immune to stuns and fears which combined with a templar could prove to be quite usefull on alot of fights for example cruror in DT. Maybe the mob just stunedd your precious zerker and guardian but wait we can be immune and get aggro beign some healer dies. We can be immune to AE's and the hard hitting frontal spells for 3 hits. we can get out mitigation to 6400 - 6500 for 3min without being stunned like a monk would be if they even attempted to get that high. Yes a guard zerker paladin what not can get to 60 or 70%. that jump to 80 - 85% is a pretty large one when dealing with shrug off especially since we have an extra avoidance check ( deflection ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something you keep missing in my posts is I dont ask for a group to focuse on just my buffs. Im generally not in the greatest of buff group when it comes to dps and haste buffs but yet still am capable of pulling 1k - 1500. You keep assuming my dps comes from this god group you have in your mind that will just focuse on my dps but thats far from how the groups are set up. Generally im in a group of 2 or 3 healers plus some tanking stuff or a group of scouts, inqu and conjuror. Im not saying you necessarily suck if i did im sorry because that prob isnt the case. But maybe try a little harder learn what to do when as far as dps is concerened and you will pull higher dps with or without your super group.</DIV>

Gungo

06-26-2006, 11:36 PM

<P>There is one underlining problem in your debate. Since a bruiser is not the best at any specific point. And as you say well played bruiser has to work to be good at what he does to be comparable to what you consider a class that has an easier time. Any well played character of that optimal class will always outperform a bruiser. Sure a bruiser can get ~79% mitigation and ~84% aovidance w the best available gear in game for 3mins and he could be a decent tank w his aa's spec'd out to tank. But then a well played guard in adequete fabled will still be better. Sure a bruiser can hit 1500-1800 dps w all masters in the near perfect group w knockout combo every 5 minutes and int/wis/str dps aa setup dual wielding the twin calamites. But an assasin will do more dps. Do you not see any of these people's complaints? Do you not see what the original poster means? Many people including yourself do not see the value in a bruisers because we are not the best in any specific role. </P> <P>The reason i said you do not see the value in a bruiser is because even though 2 bruisers don't have stacking issues in raids. You wouldn't recommend a guild to have more then 2 bruisers. Yet many guild want multiple brigand, assasins, warlocks, Etc. If your guild only has 1 brawler who cares they say. You only need 1 brawler for fights liek the 3 princes for obvious reasons. </P> <P>The funny part of all this dragoarn is i actually agree with you. I think well played bruisers can be a benefit to a raid. Although i do understand the original posters complaints. With out a clear defined role people will always consider the bruiser a red headed stepchild to both fighters and scouts. Like i siad in my guild i tank and dps. I am on the parse. I am not necessarily speced out for dps hence i will not be on the top 3 although i am regularly around 6-8 place. even if i speced in dps i will not beat our necro, assasin, warlock, zerker(aoe only), ranger. Those classes regularly get 1.8-2k. Now given those facts and the fact bruisers DO NOT provide any direct utility that is needed. Why take a bruiser to a raid? an assasin stacks up better and adds a ton of dps. His appleid posien buff makes other scouts higher DPS. bruisers are liek enchanters. There really is no need to bring mroe then 1 brawler to a raid. Why bring an second enchanter when 2nd troubador is works better. A troubador will not only provide comparable power regen, but resists and lowers hate on real dps classes. That is the concern the orginal poster was talking about. It is a valid concern. </P> <P>What makes a bruiser good a good soloer is what also makes him a less then adequate raid class. We are the jack of all trades so to speak. We tank well we dps well, but that should not mean we shouldn't have a more defined raid role. Remeber the discussion i had about what could use fixing on a bruiser. I wasn't asking to be more dps then a scout, nor was i asking to be a better tank then a guard. In both regards we are well balanced. I even have no problems with bezerkers doing comparable Dps. I do however think we needed our own special raid niche.</P> <P>I said they should implement fake death pulling. I did agree with you i doubt this will be implemented anytime in the near future. So instead i wanted them to provide a long duration stone skin buff untoggable w long recast. Sort of like our mitigation buff. 3 min duration until cancled 3 min recast.instant cast. This buff would block 3 hits sort of like a ghetto form of the brigands reflex aoe avoid buff. But with its own litmitations. it would also help us in our tanking role. I would also like our offensive stance to work on ranged atks which it does not. I would also like our defense skill in agi aa line to be turned into mtigation. I would also like them to provide a lvl 70 fear as the lvl 50 version is highly ressits on 70 + mobs. Those are the direct issues i have with the bruiser atm.</P> <P>There are other issues they can fix, but nothing as pressing as those. I think fake death should have a dehate added onto it. This way the dps brawler can drop soem agro at the cost of time he could dps. It will also continue the line for upgrades in the future. I would like some way to provide addtional agro on mutiple mobs. Maybe increase our hate proc. I do not know i really don't see bruisers as having single target agro issues and this would surely make us lock down single targets much easier.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

J4k

06-26-2006, 11:52 PM

<DIV>The real problem for us or atleast me on the lines of dps is I could probably pull higher then 1.5k dps but the fact that we dont get much deagro other then maybe a guardisn or a pally has amends on you. This really effects our initial dmg compared to a scout who can go balls to the wall at the start with deagro. I mean we are in a game where there are 6 different types of tanks and only 24 people aloud in a raid. Only 1 of those tanks will be even tanking 90% of thr raid which leaves the rest of us who are going to be dpsing especially us and monks at a disadvantage when it comes to pulling aggro. If we had some type of self deagor or even a group deagro buff i really thing our dps could go higher then it is currently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying i wouldnt accept any enhancements to the class with open arms but i wouldnt cry about not getting any because im extremly happy with my class atm other then our burst aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind along with the buffing of a class by giving them some super new buff or increase dps comes the over powered complaints from other classes which can sometimes result in us being nerfed below what we were :smileysad:</DIV>

Gungo

06-27-2006, 12:06 AM

<P>Read my last post it actually addressed that issue. </P> <P>Btw no disrespect to you intended. At times i do post debate bluntly and attack the poster points. And i do agree bruiser do benefit a raid. But i understand the original posters concern. As many other brawlers have had this concern before. The original poster did not say we were a broken class. And i doubt any brawler on these forums thinks bruisers are. He is only questioning what is it he brings to raids that no other class can provide better.<BR></P> <P> </P>

ganjookie

06-27-2006, 12:12 AM

<p>This is a letter of love and peace; I will not lash out against anyone, and I will not use specific names of individuals or organizations that obfuscate the issue so that one can't see what ought to be utterly obvious to all. That said, let me merely point out that Gungo is a social liability. For openers, if you think you can escape from Gungo's repressive taradiddles, then good-bye and good luck. To the rest of you I suggest that he writes a lot of long statements that mean practically nothing. What's sneaky is that Gungo constructs those statements in such a way that it never occurs to his readers to analyze them. Analysis would almost certainly indicate that tasteless barmpots often take earthworms or similar small animals and impale them on a pin to enjoy watching them twist and writhe as they slowly die. Similarly, Gungo enjoys watching respectable people twist and writhe whenever he threatens to let us know exactly what our attitudes should be towards various types of people and behavior. I could go on for pages listing innumerable examples of Gungo's prissy revenge fantasies and merciless prank phone calls. I have already written enough, surely, to convince you that if Gungo's compeers had even an ounce of integrity, they would improve the living conditions of the most vulnerable in our society -- the sick, the old, the disabled, the unemployed, and our youth -- all of whose lives are made miserable by Gungo. Having studied his charges and finding them groundless, I must now tell the world that inasmuch as I disagree with Gungo's accusations and find his ad hominem attacks offensive, I am happy to meet Gungo's speech with more speech and, if necessary, continue this discussion until the truth shines. Don't let yourself be persuaded by raucous, vitriolic hellions who secretly want to reduce us to acute penury. Gungo knows that performing an occasional act of charity will make some people forgive -- or at least overlook -- all of his directionless excesses. My take on the matter is that there are three fairly obvious problems with his viewpoints, each of which needs to be addressed by any letter that attempts to do something about the continuing -- make that the escalating -- effort on his part to pigeonhole people into predetermined categories. First, the world would be better off if he had never been born. Second, he could use a heavy dose of sensitivity training. And third, we must work together to dispense justice. What can you do to help? For starters, you might want to hammer out solutions on the anvil of discourse. I personally derive great satisfaction in doing that sort of thing because Gungo's views are antiquated, misguided, and scurrilous. And I can say that with a clear conscience because if Gungo continues to inspire a recrudescence of predatory fatuity, I will unequivocally be obliged to do something about him. And you know me: I never neglect my obligations. Worst of all, our children's children would never forgive us for letting Gungo suborn the worst classes of execrable troglodytes there are to confuse, befuddle, and neutralize public opposition. </p> <p>I am not complaining about that. I wish I could put it more delicately, but that would miss the point. I have just one word for Gungo: superultrafrostified. Due to the power relationship between the dominator and the dominated, his favorite buzzword these days is "crisis". Gungo likes to tell us that we have a crisis on our hands. He then argues that the only reasonable approach to combat this crisis is for him to topple society. In my opinion, the real crisis is the dearth of people who understand that Gungo's roorbacks are precisely the kind of thing that will convict me without trial, jury, or reading one complete paragraph of this letter by the end of the decade. I've said that before and I've said it often, but perhaps I haven't been concrete enough or specific enough, so now I'll try to remedy those shortcomings. I'll try to be a lot more specific and concrete when I explain that most of you reading this letter have your hearts in the right place. Now follow your hearts with actions. I am sure that you, poor harried reader, have suffered from Gungo's improvident long-term goals and rightly concluded that his commitment to cannibalism is only part of the story, yes. But there are some judgmental propagandists who are mischievous. There are also some who are possession-obsessed. Which category does Gungo fall into? If the question overwhelms you, I suggest you check "both". After having read this, you may think that Gungo has always promoted the trendiest causes, the causes that all of the important people promote. Nevertheless, you should always remember that contumelious vigilantes are burdened with the preconceived ideas or feeble understanding of the circles to which they previously belonged, both politically and philosophically.</p><div></div>

Pnaxx

06-27-2006, 12:22 AM

<DIV>Where do you all find the time for these massive posts? It is insane. if your at work, careful, you may get fired...if your home.....hmmmm......get off the computer for a bit:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jookie...not meant for you.</DIV>

Gungo

06-27-2006, 12:55 AM

<P>Ganjookie that was pretty funny stuff. It actually reminded me of the first dialog from the movie "V for Vendetta" it was not as accute but a fun read nonetheless. Although not entirely accurate may hold some truth to the matter. As i do assertain some of the aforementioned ideas. You probably could have stated your point in less words. As i am certain most readers will miss the entirety of your points. Although the agenda is quite clear. I will lay out what you ultimatly mean. I am a protaganist who basically uses words and other people's ideas as a way to pursuade people to my own agenda. And to that regard ganjookie is correct. But that does not mean the validity of my statements is unbiased or wrong. It is ultimately up to the reader to decide on which side of the debate he stands.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:06 PM</span>

Godsgift4040

06-27-2006, 01:27 AM

<DIV>Like the brigand posting and i hope u realize that unbuffed brigands will have better dps then an unbuffed bruiser. If the bruiser and brigand are in the same uber group that jakik described inq, bard, chanter with a bruiser................. our dps will be close to a brigands and can occasionally beat them. We have a amazing brigand in my guild and when we were in the same group for labs and hos our dps was like 100 dps apart the entire raid. Not sure how u play ur bruiser or if he has fabled weapons/gear like ur brigand but our dps can come close to their with good groups. U can make the argument that in an ideal group scouts would beat us everytime. This might be true but most scouts like assassins rangers and even brigands and scouts have self dps and or haste buffs so they cap long before any bruiser does. This allows us in good groups to really catch up on the dps charts to them. Plus brigands are the only scout class that can completely dodge aoes, bruiser is by far the best class minus brigands at surviving aoes and staying in the fight even melee aoe mobs we can just switch stances and put on vig spirit. Not really sure how u play ur bruiser on raids but in good groups we can hit some nasty dps. Not really sure why gungo credits dps to the people that buff haste or dps mod on a bruiser. That just seems silly to me cause then i guess u credit agro to coercers and swashies, assassins, or dirges who are in the MT group....................... Yes a terribly buffed bruiser in a raid wont do as much dmg as a scout..................but a well buffed bruiser will do some really kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] dmg for any fighter type. Why give a scout max dps mod and haste (most likely wasting some of the percentage of the buffs) to have them go form 1.3k to 1.6 when u can move a bruiser to .8k to 1.5k? Guess we will never know. </DIV>