Future of the Bruiser

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV>As LU24 has come and gone the time has come to focus on what we as the bruiser community are looking to achieve in the next few months.  Lu24 didnt hit us as hard as others (see conjs) and as much as we say the devs dont listen they turn up and show that they do listen ; allbeit quietly and they can see what changes are done in the fight for balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the main focus now should be brusier Mitigation :-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i would give up dps to be able to tank better who wouldnt  , most of us choose a brusier or indeed monk as we were an archtype of a fighter class.  A hybrid who could tank and do damage , ok so back in the early days we couldnt tank but hey we could do damage, then came the guardians darkest day the day we were actually made into decent tanks and solo gods.  Guards complained they wanted to be the only uber class in the game and brawlers pointed out that even though they lost a bit they still were able to tank better than us due to the mitigation they still had us pwned BUT they were no longer the only choice of tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since that LU guards have remained as MT choice (yes we know we can tank but people mentailty rules otherwise) then came the AA lines for guards which in fairness compared to ours totally rock ! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its was obviosly in soes designs to give us a MIT AA line as it was in test but was removed my question is why ? if we are a fighter archtype as we are supposed to be why are we not given tools to do our job , avoidance tanking has the potential to be better than mitigation tanking as it should be i mean how is someone getting beat on constantly doing a better job than someone dodging everything , i mean thats plain gonna hurt :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just am looking for 2 things and Im not asking for sweeping changes either </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-A nice AA line that tanking focused brusiers can follow allowing them to be just what they wanted - A TANK (that wears PJs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- A new set of AA lines based on a brusier and not a monk , why would i want something called swooping crane for gods sake when i could get headbutt ?? Keep the abilitys as they are just change the names pleaaaaaaaasssse</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway if you read this post then fair play !!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AA Mit Line ftw moor if your reading </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mentla]

I mostly solo so I'd like to keep my dps thanks, but as Zerkers do similar dps AND get MIT I can see where you're coming from. <div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mentla wrote:<BR>I mostly solo so I'd like to keep my dps thanks, but as Zerkers do similar dps AND get MIT I can see where you're coming from.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Zerkers are crazy atm hitting 2k on raids take the [Removed for Content] for a tank !

[l00t]

<DIV>I would rather see more damage then more tanking as a bruiser. </DIV> <DIV>I didnt choose a class because the archetype was a fighter and wanted to tank all the time.</DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i would give up dps to be able to tank better who wouldnt  , most of us choose a brusier or indeed monk as we were an archtype of a fighter class. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I wouldn't. I chose Bruiser because it was the highest non-scout DPS class. That's the reason I changed from a Monk in the first place - in fact, now that Gaige is a Bruiser I'm fearing a repeat of what happened in the Tanking vs DPS debate last year when Monks were edged away from DPS towards tanking. Gaige - if you're reading this - do me a favour and try to leave this class alone.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Also, taking away DPS would be a terrible idea for us PvPing Bruisers. The Devs have to balance the class for raiders, tanks, soloers and PvPers. Good luck with that, lads.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Having said all that, I think a mitigation AA line would be great. Let those of us who want more DPS play our way and those who want better tanking play their way.</FONT></P>

[ganjookie]

<div></div>Robotron Answerbot5003 says," <font color="#ff9900">Bruisers are a tanking class</font>, that deals contains aggro with thier damage.<font color="#ffff00">Bruisers are not a "DPS" class</font>"This has been a presentation of the Robotron Answerbot5003.Please address all comments to  <a target="_blank" href="mailto:%[email protected]">Robotron Mailbot with outlook express upgrade</a><span></span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by ganjookie on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:26 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i would give up dps to be able to tank better who wouldnt  , most of us choose a brusier or indeed monk as we were an archtype of a fighter class. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I wouldn't. I chose Bruiser because it was the highest non-scout DPS class. That's the reason I changed from a Monk in the first place - in fact, now that Gaige is a Bruiser I'm fearing a repeat of what happened in the Tanking vs DPS debate last year when Monks were edged away from DPS towards tanking. Gaige - if you're reading this - do me a favour and try to leave this class alone.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/I disagree with that statement we arnt dps and if you wanted dps then you should have rolled a necro/conj or scout class.  At the moment the dps we currently have is fine but the mitigation isnt.  A brawler is a fighter with good dps so we should be balanced as one and hell if gaige can make the difference then fantastic </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If they arnt going to give us mitigation then can they at least define a role for us ? moorguard has previously stated that we are a jack of all trades and master of none fine but what is the plan for us as a class ? where are they going to take us ? I welcome gaige and any changes he can get done for the good of the brusier community but if it came to losing dps for mit would it really be that bad a choice ? </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Also, taking away DPS would be a terrible idea for us PvPing Bruisers. The Devs have to balance the class for raiders, tanks, soloers and PvPers. Good luck with that, lads.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffff00 size=4>/The game was launched as PVE everything was based around PVE now with the introduction of PVP everyones focus gets changed , we have to remember most people bought the game before it was PVP and a lot of people dont play pvp.  Having a mit line suits all from raiders to soloers ,  who doesnt need to take less damage at anytime ?  The problem is the devs are now balancing the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] game for pvp without thinking of the cost to PVE </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Having said all that, I think a mitigation AA line would be great. Let those of us who want more DPS play our way and those who want better tanking play their way.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/I agree and i dont think they should take our dps as i have said its fine how it is but if the choice needed to be made to lose 5% to gain 5% its an easy desision to make and wouldnt effect anyones soloablilty amd as mentioned people need to get away from us as dps either that or turn us back into like we were before lu13 where we were broken and ONLY DPS Lol</FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Fromingo]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>moorguard has previously stated that we are a jack of all trades and master of none </FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR></P> <HR> <P>Sounds like a bard to me but hey if they think we are a "Jack of All Trades" class then please give me Track, Stealth, Evac, some type of health and mana regen ability and a small kitchenette please.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>but if it came to losing dps for mit would it really be that bad a choice ? </FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes.   Every Archetype (mage, scout, fighter) has it's classes that do more DPS than the others.  Brawlers are it for fighters.  I do not want to be a clone of the others.  2 AA lines that are defensive(with mitigation, avoidance and HP bonus type choices) and 2 that are offensive (with speed, DPS, proc type choices) would be great.  Then those that want to tank can focus on the defensive AA's and those who want DPS can focus on the offensive and the ones that want balance like me can mix & match.   Existing Non AA gained DPS should not be reduced for bonus mitigation.   Let people pick what they want to focus on and leave the base class alone!<BR></DIV>

[Owa]

<P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I swear to Christ if I hear one more person telling me what a Bruiser is and what class I should be playing...</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Look, I know what a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing Bruiser does and I know what [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing class I should be playing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>For every time someone says 'play a Brigand' I can say 'play a Guardian' - and on and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing on we go.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4> Surely the point is to get a choice of AA lines so we can all be happy? No?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>And like it or not PvP is here and you better deal with it.</FONT></P>

[J4k]

<P>I hope in The EoF expansion they do AA's like that should have done when they released them. The yadvertised AA's as a way to foxcuse your character towards something. Well i cant speak for other classes AA's but our aa's have not much focusing. Basically every line starts with a stats. Then we goty a useless combat art, then some type of dps, then a tanking aa's and at the end you get to spend 8aas on a even more useless thing. This isnt really focusing your class any which way ever line is the same thing.</P> <P>What they need to do in EoF is let you focus your self on being a DPS or being a Tank or go down the middle and get a little bit of both. Maybe get some more utility instead of more dps or more tanking. The fact is the raid sizes vs the amount of classes in this game is dumb. theres 6 different types of tanks. thats 1/4th of a raid. There no need to have 6 different types. I mean i will admit the princes enouncter is fun but thats 1 of many encounters where a brawler tank is ABSOLUTLY needed. Other then that a guardian can tank just as much as we can and jus as much as a crusader can but he just has double our mit and about 15 - 20% less avoidance. ( and yes i know they dont have deflection blablabla they still have double our mitigation ) Ive found that our avoidance buff is actually very good to have on the main tank but unfortunatly thats all we bring to the group. If we could focus AA's on getting more Defensive buffs for our group or more offensive buffs for our group that would be awsome also.</P> <P>With AA's there endless amount of way you can shape your class into what you like be it DPS, Tanking, Utility or all 3 combined.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>And like it or not PvP is here and you better deal with it.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Good thing they can balance PvP and PvE seperately.</P> <P>As for bruisers, they are tanks.  Zerkers can outdps us too /shrug.</P> <P>Oh and I don't plan on changing the class at all, I like it as it is.  If things were to change though I imagine they'd change toward defense.  But that's just me.</P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 PM</span>

[Zigmun]

<DIV>"Personally i would give up dps to be able to tank better who wouldnt, most of us choose a brusier or indeed monk as we were an archtype of a fighter class."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually I would - I prefer dps - and as others have stated if I really wanted to be a tank I would have rolled a Guardian or a Beserker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree we should have an aa line that reflects more of a defensive build - that is kind of an "oh crap" line - enough to help a group if and when in trouble - but that's it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see no reason to muddy the lines between the fighter classes by giving us Tank abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are a jack of all trades and quite good at it - that's fine by me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't touch my dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RustyB]

<DIV>people saying they are willing to drop some of our dps for more in defense  really need to play a monk or zerker or something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and from what I do on a day to day basis  there is nothing wrong with our tanking ability at all.   I'm really starting to think that most of the people on these forums are people who really don't have a clue [Removed for Content] they are doing with their class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mantua1]

<DIV>/em puts on his serious hat</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For me I prefer our dps as it is. With my current AA down the wisdom line (this was a respec from the STR line down to CHI and STR at times of 700+) I can acheive with my current 2hd staff high dps on raids (I raid farliy often). For the parser we use I have reached into the 1000's. Not often and procs have to happen and all but I average in the 800-900 range burning through abilites. </DIV> <DIV>When I had the Str Line with CHI activated I never made the top 10 on the parser so....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as a tanking AA line. Ohh yes I would love to see that option. Not that I would choose it but.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AA renaming (keeping them exactly as they are just giving them a "bruiser "flavor). Yes that would be sweet.</DIV> <DIV>No its does not affect game but seeing an ability called Unfathomable Brutality or Rage of Madness or Fury of the Dreadnought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dreadnought - one that is among the largest or most powerful of its kind. Yea that screams BRUISER</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But as to the OP I agree the changes I have experienced are certianly not game ending. I had doubts about how this would work for me but it does seem encounters are more challenging. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV>For all the DPS bruisers out there. Here is your problem We are not suppose to out dps scouts or casters (minus a few exceptions who add more dps to group then direct). The reason i don't advocate DPS brawlers. You are fighting a losing battle. everytime a bruiser is seen to regualrly out DPS a predator/rogue/sorcerer/Summoner. You will hear that NERF chant. You can't win the dps debate. you never will. unless they remove us from the fighter archtype. REAL DPS classes will always outdps us. WHich then leaves bruisers as a second rate DPS'er who can't tank. Way to go you are effectivly advocating making bruisers cheap dps and bad tanks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now for the tank bruisers. We at least have a valid argument We are fighters. We were told we would tank equal to other fighters. Sure i love my dps and i don't want it nerfed. I like my dps as the highest in the fighter archtype. I also like to be an adequate tank. I also would like the opportunity to tank epics. Mabe not as safe as a guard but a tank nontheless. I like the few fights we are able to tank its fun. I think bruiser is close to perfect. What i would liek is defensive removed and replaced w mitigation in agi line for both monks and bruisers. And i would like a 3 hit stone skin buff on a 1min-1.5 min timer. This imho would balance us w guards/zerker tanks. As well as help the monk mitgation issue. They removed the 240 mitgation tradeskill potion i think a 400 mitigation 50 a rank AA wouldnt be to unbalancing.</DIV>

[RustyB]

<P>hmm  when were we told we could tank equal to other fighters?  I never got the memo...</P> <P>Gungo  if you got so many issues with our class  why not roll a new toon.   and go b*tch on their forums.</P>

[J4k]

<DIV>I am personally quite happy with our dps and our tanking ability atm. What im not happy about is the fact that berserkers continue to out dps and out tank us. They can keep much better aggro because they can pull 2k dps out. Single target dps is the same or slightly more then our more then 1 mob is like double our dps and aggro abilitys. We are supposed to be the dps fighter but atm thats not the case.</DIV><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:44 PM</span>

[RustyB]

<DIV>never once should a zerker out dps a bruiser on a single encounter.   it's the groups where they shine.</DIV>

[Kram337]

My thoughts on this:People have it set in their narrow minds that bralwers can't tank, period.  Reducing our dps and giving us better tanking ability is NOT going to change that. People are too set in their ways to realise that we can tank well. So from where I stand, all that would do is let me and my brawler brothers know that we're better tanks, and to every one else we'd just appear as a lower dps class in leather.I know that we can't out tank some other tanks and I don't care to, I just dont want to lose one of our biggest group selling points.  I've got a list of people whom I normally group with, and they all KNOW I can tank because I've proven myself. But again, to the vast majority, they simply can't wrap their minds around it.  Regardless of what we know we can do.(on a side note)My favorite thing to do, when somebody says "what you can't tank!" is to /role, put on my staff and grand master robe, tell them I'm a wizard, and then tank the hell out of the mobs. While at the same time out dps'ing every one of them. Then when i'm done chain pulling, I take off my robe, put my staff back on my back, and ask "what was that you say?" /disband  <div></div>

[Maelwy]

<P>With the changes to stuns, knockbacks, mez and fear, our tanking capability just took a hit.  With solid healers, I can still do fine, since in a full group, those were not key to our survival - </P> <P>But in solo, duo and small group situations, the changes are hurting us noticeably.</P> <P>Please compensate with some form of a dps increase or mitigation increase.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RustyBallz wrote:<BR> <P>hmm  when were we told we could tank equal to other fighters?  I never got the memo...</P> <P>Gungo  if you got so many issues with our class  why not roll a new toon.   and go b*tch on their forums.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>We played this record already. IF you really want to get into this again go read the FAQ sheet. Where it specifically stated all fighters would be able to perform thier role equally. Then it was expanded upon where moorgard even said BRAWLERS are tanks. Do we really need to rehash debate again. Go read the FAQ sheet. Brawlers are tanks. All classes are intended to do thier primary role equally. Fighters pirmary role is to hold agro and tank for the group. These points were specifically mentioned by the devs and stated in the fact sheet.</P> <P>My point brawlers are never intended to do more dps then real dps classes</P>

[J4k]

<P>tobad what the devs say and what actually is arnt the same.</P> <P>Oh and All you keep saying youd give up DPS for mitigation ........................</P> <P>So basically you get more mitigation but cant keep aggro cause your main aggro builder was nerfed. Makes mucho sense to meeee</P><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:48 AM</span>

[RustyB]

<P>If Brawlers could tank just as good as any plate the what would be the point to role a Guardian?  </P> <P>people would just say  "hey dude..  you could roll a guard and only serve one purpose.  or you could roll a brawler and serve that same purpose and many more."</P> <P>come on man.   wake the f*ck up</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RustyBallz wrote:<BR> <P>If Brawlers could tank just as good as any plate the what would be the point to role a Guardian? </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Worst arguement ever.</P> <P>What can bruisers/monks do better than any other class?</P> <P>That's what I thought.<BR></P>

[Stiffn]

<P>What we do better then any other class is.....  Hit rescue and die quicker then anyone?</P> <P>Only thing i can think of, anyone else got ideas?</P>

<blockquote><hr>Stiffner wrote: <P>What we do better then any other class is.....  Hit rescue and die quicker then anyone?</P> <P>Only thing i can think of, anyone else got ideas?</P><hr></blockquote> pretty much

[Rendoir]

<P>We can make awesome trio exp grind groups... We can run thru zones to exactly where we want to be without having to kill anything unless we want to.. Hmm I love my bruiser, can do a lot of good things, much fun to play. </P> <P>Future of the bruiser.. I'd love more miti, the ability to actually handle some of the evil damage spikes. Althought more miti prolly wouldn't be the thing to do it. 100% immunity to all damage for 5 seconds might tho, on a 5 minute timer or something, for when you did get that nasty double unavoided spike. </P> <P>Or a full heal, dunno really just running ideas off, I tank alot, don't have much trouble with anything i have encountered thus far however, I have the int line maxed, and love the -30% miti bonus as i spend most of my time with a defiler, so for anything heroic or less 1400 more or less constant miti is very nice. </P> <P>So yes, I would love more miti, in some form, or the ability to in some way deal more effectively with nasty damage spikes. </P>

[Madmoon]

AAs are not for bruisers.  AAs are for brawlers.  So, negatory on both.

[RustyB]

<div></div>you know i have a lvl 60 bruiser and lvl 64 zerker and i like them both but i got a good idea how about everyone quit whining about what another class can do and just play you class that is how the nerfs start and u know what it is a never ending cycledo what u  do and do it the best Celinar

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rendoir wrote:<BR> <P> I'd love more miti, the ability to actually handle some of the evil damage spikes. Althought more miti prolly wouldn't be the thing to do it. 100% immunity to all damage for 5 seconds might tho, on a 5 minute timer or something, for when you did get that nasty double unavoided spike. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That wouldn't do it.  What would do it is a concentration buff, castable on ourselves (could also be cast on others for some fun utility...)</P> <P>Call it 'Extreme Evasion" or something similar - if the buff is up on us, and a hit comes in that would do more than 30% damage (spell or melee) we take evasive action that prevents the damage from hitting us - once its procced, have the recast on it be 1 minutes or so.</P> <P>It could even have stun effect/stifle effect on us that would prevent us from taking any action for 5 seconds after it triggers...</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <P>tobad what the devs say and what actually is arnt the same.</P> <P>Oh and All you keep saying youd give up DPS for mitigation ........................</P> <P>So basically you get more mitigation but cant keep aggro cause your main aggro builder was nerfed. Makes mucho sense to meeee</P> <P>Message Edited by J4kik on <SPAN class=date_text>06-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>BTW dragorn i never said lower our DPS. In fact if you actually read my complaints on the test server when they nerfed DPS. It was exactly as you are saying we need our dps for agro. But our DPS is not that much higher then zerker on single targets and zerkers do have a higher aoe dps and tank better. As well guards dps is just fine now plus they tank better then anyone else and they have a few O crap skilsl to prevent dieing. My points have always been the same brawlers should be comparable tansk and in most cases a bruiser is if geared out the wazoo. But i would still like our defensive removed from the Agi line and replaced w + mitigation. Then i would like a 3 hit stone skin buff on a 1.5 minute duration/recast timer, Non toggable. Those 2 abilites would make up the difference in tanking. We already lost our mitigation poition removing a 240 miti potion and replacing it w a 400 mitigation AA skill will not overpower us.

[J4k]

<DIV>i guess when i said "all you" that really means gungo cause gungo is uber. They need to either lower Berserker dps, increase ours or keep the tanking classes unequal and leave them how they are. I know they wont increase our dps so that leaves 2 options. Please not take the dumb one devs and balance the tanking classes to be more equal like you say we should be.</DIV>

[Gungo]

Well you did post directly after me. And "all you" does not necessarily mean every bruiser on this board. It can mean "all YOU", if you meant to say every other person then it should of said "all of you".<p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 PM</span>

[Revjak18]

So just a quick question cuz of all this mitigation talk.  Anyone else realize that we already have the most powerful mit buff out of all the fighters that many people call overpowered?  Vigorous Spirit lasts for 3 minutes, everybody elses lasts 30 seconds, and afaik it buffs our mit the most of any of them too.  Just thinkin maybe this is why we dont have a mit AA or more mitigation stuff in our class?  If i'm wrong correct me please im just curious as while i do very well when i do tank, i didnt make my guy for tanking and right now the only raids i tank are princes and gorenaire. (Our guardian is the guild leader and is one of those Brawler dislikin types so i dont raid tank much <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).Effrum70 Bruiser of Second DawnNajena<div></div>

[Storm_Runner]

<P>Personally I built my Bruiser for soloing and small grouping with the emphasis on soloing.  Even when I small group I am OT more than I am MT and that suits me fine.  My play style is to be more dps oriented and thats why I love my Bruiser.  I realize I'm not a "dps" class.  I wouldn't want my Bruiser to be tier 1 dps and then not be able to take a hit.  I play a Warlock for that.  I wanted to play a melee fighter that has decent dps and could tank if needed.  My Bruiser excels in that role.  I know I'm going to be out-tanked by some other fighters, that others will have more utility, and I expect to be out dps'd by Berserkers in AoE fights because that's their area of expertise.  They do the best AoE dps of all fighters.  Monk and Bruisers do the best single target dps.  If it's a short fight then we are the best...longers fights Monks take the lead.  </P> <P>I have no problem with any of that.  If there were an AA line for those that wanted to concentrate on tanking, one that gave them added mitigation, then I'm all for it.  It'll let them play their Bruiser the way they want.  But I don't want my dps lowered to pay for it.  Thats my bread and butter when I solo and small group.  It's what I do.  If you want an AA line for better tanking then I say more power to you but I'm not willing to have my base dps (dps before AAs are added in) reduced for you to get it.  If you want a mitigation AA line fine...as long as you getting what you need to play the way you want doesn't keep me from playing my Bruiser the way I want.</P><p>Message Edited by Storm_Runner on <span class=date_text>06-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:47 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Revjak18 wrote:<BR>So just a quick question cuz of all this mitigation talk.  Anyone else realize that we already have the most powerful mit buff out of all the fighters that many people call overpowered?  Vigorous Spirit lasts for 3 minutes, everybody elses lasts 30 seconds, and afaik it buffs our mit the most of any of them too.  Just thinkin maybe this is why we dont have a mit AA or more mitigation stuff in our class?  If i'm wrong correct me please im just curious as while i do very well when i do tank, i didnt make my guy for tanking and right now the only raids i tank are princes and gorenaire. (Our guardian is the guild leader and is one of those Brawler dislikin types so i dont raid tank much <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).<BR><BR>Effrum<BR>70 Bruiser of Second Dawn<BR>Najena<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The 30 sec stun buff for both brawlers is more then the 3 min buff, but yes vigourous spirit line does have a very friendly upgrade path per tier. Its liek ~400 mitigation per tier upgrade. Mitigation is needed to tank well. You cna have 90% avoidance and 20% mitigation and that 10% of hits cna kill you. As mobs are made tuffer and given stronger hits instead of faster or more hits. And mobs given mor emitgation debuffs it leaves brawlers at a bit of a disadvantage. No where near as sever as before. Now regularly i used the mitgation potion as i am sure many tanking brawlers did. They removed the 240 mitgation potion so why couldnt they add a 400 mitgation AA into the agi line instead of defesne which is the easiest Skill to cap at 420. This will also make the Agi line of aa's mroe appealing since its the least used AA path. Now this may not be a vast improvement for bruisers but would help tanking monks more. Also it would limit the DPS of tank built brawlers.<BR>

[J4k]

<DIV>Berserkers can pull the same if not close to the same sinlge target dps as us. the 100 - 200dps different on single target vs the 800 -1000dps difference on more then 1 target is far from balanced.</DIV>

[Mentla]

<blockquote><hr>Revjak18 wrote:So just a quick question cuz of all this mitigation talk.  Anyone else realize that we already have the most powerful mit buff out of all the fighters that many people call overpowered?  Vigorous Spirit lasts for 3 minutes, everybody elses lasts 30 seconds, and afaik it buffs our mit the most of any of them too.  Just thinkin maybe this is why we dont have a mit AA or more mitigation stuff in our class?  If i'm wrong correct me please im just curious as while i do very well when i do tank, i didnt make my guy for tanking and right now the only raids i tank are princes and gorenaire. (Our guardian is the guild leader and is one of those Brawler dislikin types so i dont raid tank much <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).Effrum70 Bruiser of Second DawnNajena<div></div><hr></blockquote>Just curious - what on earth DO bruisas do on a raid?  Just got back to playing on PvE and I can either lvl my Bruisa or my Ranger to help my now raiding guild (weren't when I left).  Can't be bothered with my Ranger because a) it can't solo and, b) the community or pretty much all **** whits.  Should I just concentrate on my lowbie Conjuror and let the Bruisa go?<div></div>

[Mirdo]

If you are Effrum - probably anything you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well want <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Mirdo. <div></div>

[edyts]

I dont know why u say we are not dps..i am a 70 bruiser on bb and im 2nd to 5th on parse every time....sure im not top but im always in the top 5 which helps...plus i stun increase melee group dps....i still love our class....but they need to nerf monks...stil to much haste <div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mentla wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Revjak18 wrote:<BR>So just a quick question cuz of all this mitigation talk.  Anyone else realize that we already have the most powerful mit buff out of all the fighters that many people call overpowered?  Vigorous Spirit lasts for 3 minutes, everybody elses lasts 30 seconds, and afaik it buffs our mit the most of any of them too.  Just thinkin maybe this is why we dont have a mit AA or more mitigation stuff in our class?  If i'm wrong correct me please im just curious as while i do very well when i do tank, i didnt make my guy for tanking and right now the only raids i tank are princes and gorenaire. (Our guardian is the guild leader and is one of those Brawler dislikin types so i dont raid tank much <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).<BR><BR>Effrum<BR>70 Bruiser of Second Dawn<BR>Najena<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just curious - what on earth DO bruisas do on a raid?  Just got back to playing on PvE and I can either lvl my Bruisa or my Ranger to help my now raiding guild (weren't when I left).  Can't be bothered with my Ranger because a) it can't solo and, b) the community or pretty much all **** whits.  Should I just concentrate on my lowbie Conjuror and let the Bruisa go?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/Shrug betray your ranger to assassin and your ready to kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] :smileywink: its what i just did

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> edyts wrote:<BR>I dont know why u say we are not dps..i am a 70 bruiser on bb and im 2nd to 5th on parse every time....sure im not top but im always in the top 5 which helps...plus i stun increase melee group dps....i still love our class....but they need to nerf monks...stil to much haste<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because we arnt DPS , people need to realise bruiser is a tank .. period ... end of story we are a fighter class hence we tank.  Do people call zerkers DPS ? no why not because they are tanks ! </P> <P>Zerker dps will be brought down u can guarentee it , fighter classes arnt meant to be anywhere near scout classes but zerkers are whipping them and monks/brusiers are on par so you can totally expect a hit to dps soon enough.  Like gaige said if any change to us is going to be made it will be to defence and personally the easiest way to do it now would be through the AA lines.  </P> <P>Seriously guys WE ARNT DPS , We should be lower T2 at best and zerkers should be lower than us on single targets excelling on group mobs.  I just want to know where people get the impression we are a dps class ? has anyone been playing before LU13 ffs the problem is we became flavor of the month back when we were admitidly way overpowered and since then everyone who rolled seems to think hey im dps , WE AINT ! </P> <P>Dps Classes are a class desinged to put out maximum dps </P> <P>Summoners have pets and can cast spells so they do dps</P> <P>Rangers/Assassins built just for damage nothing else</P> <P>Scouts Dps and debuffs</P> <P>Mages - Need i even go there .. ok they cast big spells doing lots of damage making them .. wait for it DPS !!! </P> <P>Tanks - Erm no not dps we are the one keeping the mobs OFF THE OTHER CLASSES ARSES , and yes you have heard it here before folks if you want dps ROLL A DPS class and not a tank class or better still roll a zerker while they own and wait for the nurf to hit and then complain hey im dps i want my dps back cos get what it aint gonna happen.</P> <P>we have taunts for a reason , we have avoidance for a reason we are a fighter for a reason.  Can you justify a tank class coming 5th on a parser above all the other classes , dont you think thats not right ? </P> <P>now Im waiting for the responses to say but i need dps to keep aggro ...... </P>

[BigRed1]

<P>Personally I don't see the big problem with bruiser. In a group situation I tank as good as any plate tank and generally do more damage. I have been the off tank and the occasional main tank through T6 and and most of T7. My mitigation is not as good as as a plate tank but with the miti rings, belt etc. out of the claymore quest line and 2 light chit. rings and a good group set up I do well in the off tank raid role. </P> <P>What I personally would like to see is something that bruisers bring to raid. I would like to see a debuff or increased casting time of the mob or even revert to EQ1 where the mobs were not linked and raids depended on the monk Fd/split pull. </P> <P>But over all I really enjoy my class and don't see a need to change it.</P> <P>Kainn ~ 70 Bruiser</P> <P>Everfrost ~ "The Horde"</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Been there, seen that, been killed by it, came back and kicked it's [Removed for Content]!!</FONT></P>

[Zigmun]

<P>Darkmirrax,</P> <P>I don't know who you group with - but I have seen Furies out dps me.</P> <P>Their lvl 65 ancient plus Ring of Fire puts out 800 to 900 aoe damage every 1 second.</P> <P>That's just one class. A healing class.</P> <P>Bruisers are not over powered - we are just right.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Revjak18]

<div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Because we arnt DPS , people need to realise bruiser is a tank .. period ... end of story we are a fighter class hence we tank.  Do people call zerkers DPS ? no why not because they are tanks !</blockquote><p>Zerker dps will be brought down u can guarentee it , fighter classes arnt meant to be anywhere near scout classes but zerkers are whipping them and monks/brusiers are on par so you can totally expect a hit to dps soon enough.  Like gaige said if any change to us is going to be made it will be to defence and personally the easiest way to do it now would be through the AA lines.  </p> <p>Seriously guys WE ARNT DPS , We should be lower T2 at best and zerkers should be lower than us on single targets excelling on group mobs.  I just want to know where people get the impression we are a dps class ? has anyone been playing before LU13 ffs the problem is we became flavor of the month back when we were admitidly way overpowered and since then everyone who rolled seems to think hey im dps , WE AINT ! </p> <p>Dps Classes are a class desinged to put out maximum dps </p> <p>Summoners have pets and can cast spells so they do dps</p> <p>Rangers/Assassins built just for damage nothing else</p> <p>Scouts Dps and debuffs</p> <p>Mages - Need i even go there .. ok they cast big spells doing lots of damage making them .. wait for it DPS !!! </p> <p>Tanks - Erm no not dps we are the one keeping the mobs OFF THE OTHER CLASSES ARSES , and yes you have heard it here before folks if you want dps ROLL A DPS class and not a tank class or better still roll a zerker while they own and wait for the nurf to hit and then complain hey im dps i want my dps back cos get what it aint gonna happen.</p> <p>we have taunts for a reason , we have avoidance for a reason we are a fighter for a reason.  Can you justify a tank class coming 5th on a parser above all the other classes , dont you think thats not right ? </p> <p>now Im waiting for the responses to say but i need dps to keep aggro ...... </p><hr></blockquote>I totally agree dude, nerf our dps and give us better tanking abilities, that way you only need 2 fighters in a guild <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(talkin about hardcore guilds here where members are all on every day), cept maybe a paladin cuz of their utility.  No offense but if a dps nerf like the one you're talking about were to happen you'd have no reason for brawlers, we'd be the same farking thing as a guardian but not as reliable because with the way eq2 is setup mitigation will always be greater than avoidance or if our tanking was buffed too much then guardians would become obsolete and the game would become a joke then too.  Imo when it comes to our tanking vs our dps i think everything is fine the way it is, BUT bruisers need some kind of utility on raids that make us more than just a dps class or the guys that can save a wipe sometimes when the plate tanks go down.  Oh and i made Effrum about 3 months after the game came out when i started playing.  I made him for *gasp* DPS. Seriously guys stop paying so much attention to archtype and look at the individual class.  We are supposed to be good dps and a decent tank but not the best its that simple.  If every fighter is supposed to be the exact same at tanking and be low dps what is the point of subclasses?  And what would be the point of having more than two in a raid?Effrum70 Bruiser of Second DawnNajena</div>

[Mentla]

<blockquote><hr>Revjak18 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr></blockquote>I totally agree dude, nerf our dps and give us better tanking abilities, that way you only need 2 fighters in a guild <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(talkin about hardcore guilds here where members are all on every day), cept maybe a paladin cuz of their utility.  No offense but if a dps nerf like the one you're talking about were to happen you'd have no reason for brawlers, we'd be the same farking thing as a guardian but not as reliable because with the way eq2 is setup mitigation will always be greater than avoidance or if our tanking was buffed too much then guardians would become obsolete and the game would become a joke then too.  Imo when it comes to our tanking vs our dps i think everything is fine the way it is, BUT bruisers need some kind of utility on raids that make us more than just a dps class or the guys that can save a wipe sometimes when the plate tanks go down.  Oh and i made Effrum about 3 months after the game came out when i started playing.  I made him for *gasp* DPS. Seriously guys stop paying so much attention to archtype and look at the individual class.  <font color="#ff0000">We are supposed to be good dps and a decent tank but not the best its that simple.  If every fighter is supposed to be the exact same at tanking and be low dps what is the point of subclasses? <b> And what would be the point of having more than two in a raid?</b></font><b> </b>Effrum70 Bruiser of Second DawnNajena</div><hr></blockquote>And that's kinda the point.  If your average Joe Public is forming a raid, why on earth would he pick a Bruisa over any other class?  He wants a tank and off tank he'll take a guardian and a paladin.   He wants single target dps he'll take wizzys and scouts.  He wants group dps he'll take conjurors and warlocks.  He'll take a bruisa because.....oh wait, the raids full!<font size="1">* too lazy to do healers.</font><div></div>

[Revjak18]

Yep, that's why im saying we need some kind of utility to make up for the fact that we're not desired over other classes in raids.  If our tanking ability is increased(too much), the plate tanks will cry nerf on our dps and I'm sure that cry wont go unheeded.Effrum70 Bruiser of Second DawnNajena<div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>Bring back fake death splitting. Doesnt need to be anything to drastic with the new larger agro radius's all they need is for the initial encounter to reset a tad slower then social agro. This will also curb the need for a mezzer in zones like nazira. Please don't nerf this zoen it rocks. I only tanked the first 2 named. But i had no mezzer, and 2  of the same healer types a warden and fury. If i bring a illusinist and a mystic/temp combo i am sure i can tank it fine.</P> <P>Btw i also think brawler dps is fine. What i would like is the agi line to have a mit instead of defense and a 3 hit stone skin buff on a 1.5min duration/recast.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:41 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Revjak18 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>.  <FONT color=#ff0000>We are supposed to be good dps and a decent tank but not the best its that simple.  If every fighter is supposed to be the exact same at tanking and be low dps what is the point of subclasses? <B> And what would be the point of having more than two in a raid?</B></FONT><B><BR></B><BR>Effrum<BR>70 Bruiser of Second Dawn<BR>Najena<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>Exactly what im trying to covey accros, we are supposed to be GOOD DPS and a decent tank but at the moment we are on par with rangers and zerkers being overpowered outdo us so you think thats right ? as for tanking im sure second dawn brusier can tank everything in EQ2 right ? well the rest of us could do with a little balancing.  Im not saying to give up our dps if you read any of my posts you will see that i said our dps is fine however we need a miti line thats the point of this thread.  Not a flame war.</P> <P>and as for the arguement if we are supposed to be good dps and a decent tank whats a plate wearing zerker then ? can you see the point ??</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

[zormik]

<P>You guys are moaning all the time about zerker dps.</P> <P>You probably are looking at a zerk buffed up to raidlvl.  Like that a zerker can dish out very nice dps.  Versus single target a zerker dps is not that much better then a guardian's dps.  If you as a brawler do less dps then a zerker solo you have a problem and you need to learn your class again.</P> <P>Versus multiple targets i can agree that our dps can be very good (not like a warlock).  But may i also add that this dps is like 30s in 3minutes and that it's very situational.</P> <P>So plz before asking for another class to be hit by the nerfbat look into things seriously and look at ALL the aspects.<BR>You guys have also way more utility.  A zerker can't even come close to solo what you guys solo.  On top of that you can get anyhere you want solowise.  A zerker doesn't even have to think about that. So what do we have instead?  A tank that's more suited to keep aggro from multiple targets and a tank that's suited for raiding. Brawler --> uber solo play, uber tank single target<BR>Zerker-->uber tank vs multiple targets</P> <P>On top of that, if you nerf a zerker's dps you can aswell throw him away because that's his only way to keep aggro. Even without the nerfing a zerk can't compete with a guardian's aggro when it comes to very long epic fights.</P> <P>A zerk is all about bursting dps/aggro so he's not as uber as all of you think.  It's a very good balanced class that can be buffed up quite well.  But if you do that then it's not zerkerdps.  It's a groupeffort to help the tank keeping aggro... On top of that if a zerker used his 30s skills he's just a guardian with half the taunting power of a guardian...</P> <P>Nerfed zerk --> guardian with less taunting power and defense --> useless class</P><p>Message Edited by zormik on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:13 PM</span>

[Owa]

<P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I hate it when there are calls for nerfs for any classes (except scouts in PvP :smileyvery-happy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Zerkers seem like they're in a pretty good state atm - why is it whenever anyone is remotely happy with their class someone else wants 'em nerfed?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4></FONT> </P>

[zormik]

<P>Indeed,</P> <P>I don't feel overpowered as a zerk.  I just feel potent but i also feel i'm not as good as other tanks in some area's.</P> <P>Every tank has his spot.  Yes even bruisers and monks have a spot in our raids.  Your dps is more then good enough and a monk can be used to pulll with tsunami. On top of that your fd saved our raid multiple times...</P> <P>Warriors are only good for one thing and that is taking a beating and that's it.  A zerk can dps a little but not up to the lvl of the true dpsclasses.</P> <P>And it's not all about raiding too.  In all those other area's you guys have an advantage over plate tanks with a few exceptions...</P> <P>If you would be buffed up like those raid MT's you guys would dish out insane dps aswell, trust me.  The difference between normal and insane dps comes from buffing.  In normal groups i only can come close to dps classes when you throw a whole bunch of mobs in my direction and i can rest after that fight for 2min 30s to do that again.</P> <P>I can understand you're not happy with your class but i hate it when peeps start comparing situational dps vs overall dps...</P>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <P>Indeed,</P> <P>I don't feel overpowered as a zerk.  I just feel potent but i also feel i'm not as good as other tanks in some area's.</P> <P>Every tank has his spot.  Yes even bruisers and monks have a spot in our raids.  Your dps is more then good enough and a monk can be used to pulll with tsunami. On top of that your fd saved our raid multiple times...</P> <P>Warriors are only good for one thing and that is taking a beating and that's it.  A zerk can dps a little but not up to the lvl of the true dpsclasses.</P> <P>And it's not all about raiding too.  In all those other area's you guys have an advantage over plate tanks with a few exceptions...</P> <P>If you would be buffed up like those raid MT's you guys would dish out insane dps aswell, trust me.  The difference between normal and insane dps comes from buffing.  In normal groups i only can come close to dps classes when you throw a whole bunch of mobs in my direction and i can rest after that fight for 2min 30s to do that again.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I can understand you're not happy with your class</FONT> but i hate it when peeps start comparing situational dps vs overall dps...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I'm pretty happy with it. Bruisers may not be as good at raid tanking etc as plate tanks  - but  we solo better and are much more versatile.  </FONT><FONT face=Garamond size=4>In my view too many Bruisers are fixated on being as good at tanking as Guardians. This can never happen without either our class being completely overpowered or by giving up the things that make us better than Guardians - namely our high DPS, and solo ability.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Rather than harping on about "all fighters are tanks, all fighters should tank equally" <EM>ad nauseum,</EM> how about actually paying attention to the skill set we are given as a Bruiser? How about looking at the evidence of gameplay? All the evidence  - and gameplay - points to the Bruiser as a versatile character and <EM>not </EM>a specialist. We are not 'broken' because we can't tank as well as Guardians - we are filling our role as the link between tanks and scouts. It may not say this in the literature - but are you gonna believe that or your lying eyes?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Whichever class you pick you have to accept that there are other classes that are better than you at something. Well, we are the best at being versatile.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I like being able to tank <EM>and</EM> solo <EM>and</EM> PvP <EM>and</EM> DPS. That's why I picked Bruiser. I accept that my tanking will not be as robust as a plate tank because of this.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I really can't understand why people who want to be raid tanks persist in trying to get Brawlers turned into raid tanks - when it's much easier, quicker and, frankly, a lot less selfish to roll a class that is designed to do just that. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4><EM>"But the Devs said that all classes would be able to fulfil their primary role equally..."</EM> etc etc</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Yeah, the Devs said a lot of things. </FONT></P><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>

[Maelwy]

<DIV>throw a bruiser with a 50 pt aa build to dps and a 50 pt zerker built for offense into the same raid group...  the zerker will be similar to the bruiser on some fights....   and way above the bruiser on others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>granted, a zerker can't sub in for th guard in that kind of a build very successfully, (compared to the guard) but they still beat a defensive build bruiser when it comes to raid tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rendoir]

<DIV> <P>And it's not all about raiding too.  In all those other area's you guys have an advantage over plate tanks with a few exceptions...</P> <P> </P> <P>end quote.</P> <P> </P> <P>Then what is it all about? Once one hits 70 and is all geared up and still wants to play one's main toon alot and it happens to be a bruiser then what would one do?</P> <P>Bruiser is a word that seems to always solicit a little chuckle, or a sigh when placed in the same sentence as "raid" and that is sad. Sure asking for other classes nerfing is tantamount to asing for a well trained racehorses leg to be cut off because you want your donkey to be able to compete in a flatrace, but still - bruisers obviously need something to make em a practical choice for raiding scenarios - otherwise they need a disclaimer at the character creation screen..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Warning please read!</STRONG></FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>While this character choice may be a lot of fun to level up, and while you may make lots of friends tanking our varying dungeon content please be aware that on completion of the level 70 grind you <EM>may</EM> find difficulty obtaining a regular place in a raid guild environment!</FONT></STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4></FONT></STRONG> </P></DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rendoir wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>And it's not all about raiding too.  In all those other area's you guys have an advantage over plate tanks with a few exceptions...</P> <P> </P> <P>end quote.</P> <P> </P> <P>Then what is it all about? Once one hits 70 and is all geared up and still wants to play one's main toon alot and it happens to be a bruiser then what would one do?</P> <P>Bruiser is a word that seems to always solicit a little chuckle, or a sigh when placed in the same sentence as "raid" and that is sad. Sure asking for other classes nerfing is tantamount to asing for a well trained racehorses leg to be cut off because you want your donkey to be able to compete in a flatrace, but still - bruisers obviously need something to make em a practical choice for raiding scenarios - otherwise they need a disclaimer at the character creation screen..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Warning please read!</STRONG></FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>While this character choice may be a lot of fun to level up, and while you may make lots of friends tanking our varying dungeon content please be aware that on completion of the level 70 grind you <EM>may</EM> find difficulty obtaining a regular place in a raid guild environment!</FONT></STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4></FONT></STRONG> </P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face=Garamond><FONT size=4>This is a good point - but I believe the way to make Bruisers desirable on raids is in the way of buffs rather than upping their tanking. Remember when 'Shrug off' would get you into a raid by itself?</FONT> <FONT size=4>Give us a 'must-have' raid-orientated buff and we'll be wanted. And we won't have to have anyone nerfed in the process...</FONT></FONT>

[zormik]

<DIV>I suggest that if you don't get a spot from your guild as bruiser then you should change guild...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway i really don't understand you guys.  You really want everything.  You are far better at a lot of things and a zerk and guardian are better at MTing raids and you guys wanna have that too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't be the best at everything...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know my limitations as a zerk so i will make that what i can do, i do it good ...</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>You are correct anna i don't want the MT slot in raids. I like the second place dps slot in raids, the soloabilty, the ability to group tank as effectivly, and the usefulness/need for a bruiser on raids. </P> <P>The question arrises are we as effective a group tank as a zerk/guard and the Real issue most bruisers have what is the use to bringing a bruiser on raids. That is the single question/problem people complain about for bruisers. The means people choose to fix it via tanking or DPS is of no consequence. Now i have said my peice on the dps debate. I feel we will nor should not out dps casters or scouts. Which will always leave us at craptastic DPS compared to 12 other classes. We are a fighter class and was told we can tank equally. Using that as SOE promise to us. We should tank effectively. Currently i have no issue with the amount of our dps it is in balance with other fighters and scouts. we are in the upper tiers of fighter dps and lower tiers of scout/caster dps. We don't come out on top of parses, but we at least show up in the top 33%.</P> <P>Now tanking i don't think we are far off either. Technically we are better tanks then monks. Arguably better tanks then shadowknights. But no matter how you look at it there is very little reason to bring a bruiser on raids. There are better classes suited for what we can bring. I play my class very well in raids. I know for a fact i have helped prevented raid wipes. I also took the final agi ability. For those o crap moments where the MT somehow got 1 shotted. Its a great raid saver.  I am fast at changing to def stances, clicking my mit for hp buff, rescue and the stun mit buff. in that set up even in an offenseive group i can hit ~77% avoid and 80+% mit. i cna hold a raid mob for a few secs while the MT or OT is gtg. Then i remove stun mit buff and fake. ( i do die alot doing this but i keep the raid mob with his aoe away from the raid)</P> <P>Now what i would liek to see to help brawlers (especially monks) is the defense in the agi AA line changed to mitigation at 50 mitigation a rank for 8 ranks to equal 400 passive mitgation. I would also like to have a 3 hit stone skin buff on a 90 sec timer and 90 sec recast. Non toggable. This would help bruisers pulling on raids and help them sit inside an aoe or 2 so they can add DPS or hold agro a moment to help the raid reset if needed. Finally i would like the initially aggroed encounter to corpse camp a bruiser for ~10 secs to foster fake death pulling. I like the new social agro rules. They should also lower the recast and increase the duration of the SK fake death to help them foster in fake pulling.</P> <P>Pulling should be a brawlers specialty in raids. That is what is missing in EQ2 raiding. That is the brawler role. A semi dps class that can take a hit and fake off agro.</P> <P>edit so to recap don't nerf zerker dps. Give brawlers ( monks need this bad) an AA mitgation instead of the way overcapped defense skill in the agi line. Then give bruisers a 3 hti stone skin proc to foster our role in raids. Finally bring back the art of fake death splitting encounters (in example initially agroed mobs should corpse camp for ~6 secs more then social agroed mobs). This would give bralwers and to a degree SK a more defined role in raids.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>You know i also don't how encounters instantly break on fake death. They should reset a small while after you fake Ala eq1. Make it completly clear agro after lets say ~15 secs. This would also help fake death pulling and nerf the fake death trains peolple complain about a bit. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <FONT face=Garamond><FONT size=4>This is a good point - but I believe the way to make Bruisers desirable on raids is in the way of buffs rather than upping their tanking. Remember when 'Shrug off' would get you into a raid by itself?</FONT> <FONT size=4>Give us a 'must-have' raid-orientated buff and we'll be wanted. And we won't have to have anyone nerfed in the process...</FONT></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is the worst solution to any problem.  Its such a cop out.  Then your class immediately becomes known for that one buff and that is all you do.</P> <P>"Hey Gaige come to this raid and cast shake off and then just stand over there."</P> <P>How about no.<BR></P>

[Gungo]

I agree w gaige wasn't that the sole complaint from enchanters they were just mana regen bots.

[J4k]

<DIV>In t5 bruisers were one of the best dps in the game. The 1400 mitgation buff we had were just a bonus. Giveing that to us now and screwing over our dps/tanking abilities even more would be dumb and like gaige said probably the worst solution ive heared yet.</DIV>

[J4k]

<P>Double posted!!!</P><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:36 AM</span>

[Zigmun]

<P>Gungo and Anna have always been the voice of reason in these debates.</P> <P>The truth is with 24 classes - it's impossible to give everyone a "role" on a raid.</P> <P>- make pulling an art form for the brawler class - instead of what it is now, along with Gungo's other suggestions would round out and balance our class nicely.</P> <P>At the end of the day I feel our class is fairly balanced. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[J4k]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <DIV>I suggest that if you don't get a spot from your guild as bruiser then you should change guild...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway i really don't understand you guys.  You really want everything.  You are far better at a lot of things and a zerk and guardian are better at MTing raids and you guys wanna have that too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't be the best at everything...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know my limitations as a zerk so i will make that what i can do, i do it good ...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok berserker you need to never post again! I cant believe you said we reallt want everything lol!</P> <P>Lets compare here</P> <P>Berserker - VERY similary single target dps.. sometimes slightly more sometimes slightly less. Extreme group dps about 400 - 1k more dps on more then 2 mobs. Ability to tank in offensive stance much better then a bruiser can. Ability to get mitigation to 8k and a far superior aggro controll. Get a group buff that is far superior to our 24dps buff.</P> <P>Bruiser - Single target and more then 2 targets dps stays about the same. ae aggro blows a big one single target is decent but not the best ( i think the whole 1dmg = 1hate is a load of poo ). Shake off we do got going for us. ours owns all other fighters due to our avoidance.</P> <P>You say we want everything i think we just want something to make us more inline with the fighters as far as tanking goes.</P> <P>Cant believe a berserker of all people is trying to say your cant be the best at everything. whats this game coming to!! AWWW</P>

[J4k]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#ffffff>Zigmund9</FONT> wrote:<BR> <P>Gungo and Anna have always been the voice of reason in these debates.</P> <P>The truth is with 24 classes - it's impossible to give everyone a "role" on a raid.</P> <P>- make pulling an art form for the brawler class - instead of what it is now, along with Gungo's other suggestions would round out and balance our class nicely.</P> <P>At the end of the day I feel our class is fairly balanced. </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Id love if they brought pulling back from EQ1. Id honestly throw my tanking ability out the window in a heart beat to beable to split pull mobs again but frankly they would have to make EQ3 for that to happen. The entire game would have to be redone basically inorder to make splitpulling able to happen and even usefull on raids.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gungo]

I believe in order to pull effectively you would need to take a hit in some way. A necro fake death pulling could work in theory but be alot more painful to watch.

[J4k]

<DIV>I dont see the job of a puller will really happen in this game. I mean the closes to puller ive gotten was in nizara where i was the one thrown around corners to see what was therer and FDed if 3 encounterss poped up and once in a blue moon 1 of the 3 encounters that aggroed me actually was pulled back to the group. Thats about as close to a monk from eq1 ive gotten in eq2.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>doesnt mean it cant be changed.. i agree fake death pulling is not in eq2 because of a few reasons in the way fake death works.</P> <P>1) mobs instantly loose hate and break on fake.... mobs need to break shortly after fake death ~10-15 secs would be appripriate to return to their spawn, hate needs to clear in total shortly after mobs return to reset. In example while the mobs are wandering back thier hate drops (~10secs).</P> <P>2) initially agro Mobs need to corpse camp a few sec after fake. ~3-5 secs</P> <P>3) social agroed mobs need a faster reset time then initially agroed mobs (~5 sec hate clear ~10 sec encounter reset)</P> <P>So i tag encounter A encoutner B and C agro i run down the ramp toward raid. I fake.<BR>Encounter A , B, and C are on top of me. Encounters B and C start to wander back 3-5 secs later encounter A starts to wander back. So now either i stand up and reagro Encounter A or another fake death puller agros encounter A. If one of the B or C agro rinse and repeat till encoutner comes solo.</P> <P>The reason fake death was removed was to make combat faster in EQ2 instead of the long wait it was in eq1. What SoE didn't realise is sometimes the anticipation is more fun then the encounter. that inital rush when you  pull the raid mob the uncertainty in those first 15 secs of the fight. Raid in eq2 are no where near the events they were in eq1 and i don't think they should be 6-8 hour epidemics, but at the same time their is room in eq2 for fake death pulling of encounters. It doesnt take away from the crowd control classes Since encounters in EQ2 are designed to be puled in groups. You can't split mobs in eq2 if there are in one encounter, but you can split seperate encounters. The above example i gave would take 10-20 secs to split encounters its not a dramatic loss in raid time and it is completely feasible given the new larger agro radius. Sadly i think the new agro raidus rules will soon be rescinded becasue of complainers.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>In t5 bruisers were one of the best dps in the game. The 1400 mitgation buff we had were just a bonus. Giveing that to us now and screwing over our dps/tanking abilities even more would be dumb and like gaige said probably the worst solution ive heared yet.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And our DPS was the envy of all scout classes who chanted for nerfs daily under the premise fighters are not DPS. We will not nor can not out dps scouts/casters unless SoE decides to make us another scout. Which is highly unliekly to ever happen. Hence we are tanks.  In my opinion pulling is a tanks job. A class able to take a hit, dps a little, and drop or take agro if needed. Keeping brawlers adequate tanks, decent dps (below rogues/predators/sorcerers/summoners) and the best pullers (along w Sk/maybe necro) is the best way to Balance the class. <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <FONT face=Garamond><FONT size=4>This is a good point - but I believe the way to make Bruisers desirable on raids is in the way of buffs rather than upping their tanking. Remember when 'Shrug off' would get you into a raid by itself?</FONT> <FONT size=4>Give us a 'must-have' raid-orientated buff and we'll be wanted. And we won't have to have anyone nerfed in the process...</FONT></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is the worst solution to any problem.  Its such a cop out.  Then your class immediately becomes known for that one buff and that is all you do.</P> <P>"Hey Gaige come to this raid and cast shake off and then just stand over there."</P> <P>How about no.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face=Garamond size=4>How about you just want to be a tank and everyone else can go [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] themselves?  After all, this is essentially what you've been saying for two years. Honestly, I can't think of anyone who feels that entire classes need to be fitted to suit their particular needs more than you. The arrogance is astounding.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>More than anything this debate has become about <U>why a raid would want to take a Bruiser along</U>.  Upping our tanking ability across the board would impact on all the other classes. A Bruiser-only buff that helps in raids, on the other hand, is less likely to impact on other classes' skills. (And why should it automatically mean 'your class immediately becomes known for that one buff and that is all you do'? No reason at all. It's a deeply unconvincing logical progression. A Brawler would still contribute great DPS, FD, off-tanking and everything else we can already do. We'd just have something extra.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Just because a raid-orientated buff is not glorious enough for your tastes doesn't make it a reason that wouldn't work. After all, the idea is to balance all the classes and make everyone happy - not just you. How about the possibility that <EM>your </EM>idea - which, whatever the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it is, doubtless involves you being uber - may [Removed for Content] a whole bunch of people off (in this class and others), and lead us back, yet again, to threads on the Guardian or Zerker boards about how  Brawlers are overpowered and are making them obsolete? Is that ok as long as you get what <EM>you</EM> want? Again.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>If players aren't willing to compromise their own views of what their class should be then all we will <EM>ever</EM> see is the same cycle of overpower/nerf/overpower/nerf that has dogged this game from the start. Class X wants more Y but that dimishes Class Z who in turn demand... And on and on and on we go. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Maybe Gungo's idea about changing the mechanics of pulling raid mobs is better, I don't know. What I <EM>do </EM>know is that he's trying to figure out a way to improve the Bruiser's role in raids without it impacting negatively on anyone else.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I don't know why I keep letting myself butt heads with you over this. No matter what logical argument I've used over the last couple of years, nothing seems to get through. Nothing<EM> anyone</EM> says seems to get through. So let me distil the message so it's real simple:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Stop thinking about your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing self all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing time. How about that?</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:01 PM</span>

[J4k]

<P>lol your views on bruisers change so much. First we are fighters so we are tanks plain and simple. Now you wanna make us into buff bots.Unless that super bruiser raid uber buff's description sais grants target 100dps, 100haste, 50% chance to proc Pwn3d1nd4fAc3 inflicting a whole lotta dmg. I dont want it. We got our little dps buff which btw berserker get a better buff then us to. I still am aggreeing with gaige even after your pretty italic underlined post!</P> <P>And i dont see why the whole ooo we dont wanna get another class nerfed cause then they will post baddy things about us on there boards waaa. this is dumb never say it again. A class is out dpsing us that shouldnt be = needs to be changed. Changes, nerfs what ever you wanna call them happen in these games and need to happen alot of the time. 90% of the time the changes will make 1 side of the board happier and the other side will cry and whine what ever about it.  Maybe we shouldnt use the word nerf anymore and instead use change cause u see nerf and think of berserkers dps should be negative 500. they should hurt them selves instead of the mob. NO they just need to be toned down a bit. I mean all the berserkers that post here love there class so much that slightly less dps shouldnt make them cry about it.</P>

[Gaige]

<P>Nice rant.</P> <P>Too bad since I've betrayed I haven't said anything about upping or changing anything about the bruiser class.  You're referring to all of my old posts regarding the monk class and its lack of mitigation.</P> <P>As you should probably know, being a bruiser and all, betraying fixed my need for mitigation - and also made me a really great raid tank.</P> <P>Therefore I don't really have any complaints about this class.  So quit being a big whiney girl about stuff I haven't even said about the BRUISER class.  How about that.</P> <P>I simply said if changes were made to this class, they'd be regarding defense (more specifically I think the entire way avoidance/mitigation works is going to be changed eventually as its way too skewed) rather than dps.  We do plenty of dps for the type of class we are.</P> <P>Oh and about my ego, I love you too.</P>

[Maelwy]

<DIV>i <3 gaige</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also think our dps is fine given our versatility and the ability to be a great heroic tank, and solo/duo/trio monster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with the wide amount of dps based aa's, the dps chasers can hit top of the parses regularly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what our aa's are lacking (and our class in general) is the ability to go more effectively defensive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance is great! don't get me wrong, as a tanking bruiser, i've dumped tons of attention into maxing mine and learning when i can afford to give some up to go offensive vs defensive.  But when the chips are down, and we're taking on the high end content, it's not quite good enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As Gaige said, and I've said on other threads, avoidance's functionality is skewed when compared to similar levels of mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>against heroic content, 75% avoidance means that we're going to take 2 or 3 hits out of every 10....and it pretty consistently works to keep us alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When it comes to raiding, it's much more common to see us avoid an auto attack about 50% of the time, a special attack 15% of the time, and always get hit by the Aoe attacks.  With our low mitigation, it's just not cutting it.  Raid mobs are built to beat thru a guards mitigation (and their highly buffed avoidance) and push the healers, dirges, necros and crusaders to their limits keeping the tank up.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So one of two things needs to change in that regard - either avoidance needs some attention in regards to effective raid tanking, or more raid encounters need to be designed to work in a way that they NEED to be tanked by a brawler (and that includes reworking 1/3 of the raid content already existing in the game to this kind of encounter)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since we've seen that the devs really are daunted by changing the avoidance mechanics, and reworking a substantial amount of raid content is probably out of the question, what are we left with NOW?  What's an interim goal to shoot for, when they are soon to be introducing deities and some more character customization?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation bonuses for bruisers is a great step.  Give us an AA that allows us to bring our standing mitigation to someting similar to a crusaders.  Then with our Spirit line and our stunned move, we can for a short time boost our mitigation up to warrior levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hate generation is another area we're lacking on right now... (mostly due to previously applied poorly thought out nerfs...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, taking away our unarmed offensive bonus cut down our dps, which was the goal, but it also hurt our aggro generation.  Rumbles proc rate should be increased.  Remove our two low damage line that have no added effects (dropkick and pound at 70), and replace them with something a bit more effective - even an sk style taunt over time would be more effective than these two skills at contributing to hate generation...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Maelwys1 on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Don't let my idea fool you. As many know i am veyr Pro tank. And my suggestions also promote that idea, but also helping other areas a bit. But it will help our tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason i want the defense changed to mitgation in the AA line is for a few reasons. One it benefits bruisers BUT moreso MONKS who need that extra mitgation more. 400 extra mitigation may not seem like alot but eveyr little bit helps in tanking. 2) defense is way to easy to cap and is effectivly a waste of AA's for me or anyone. which is partly why no one lieks the AGI line even though it has one of the best raid end abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 3 hit stone skin proc. greatly helps the tankign bruiser deal with those O crap moments when you need a few secs. Which is what a bruiser lacks abilites to deal w spike damage. But the reason i wanted it to have a 90 sec duration 90 sec recast non toggable is because with a 90 sec duration a bruiser will likely be able to stand in at least 2 aoes and DPS if that is what he so chooses before it expires. Also making it non toggleable makes the recast timer start when the buff is initialy cast and not when it drops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally i would like to see fake death pulling implemented to give Bruisers and monks and to a degree shadowknights a role in raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also has issues with some spells such as Why does our offensive stance only proc on melee atks and not ranged?<BR>Why does the monks 30 sec stun mitigation buff have a 3 sec cast time, when the bruiser one is instant? Its an emergency buff it need to be instant.</DIV> <DIV>The Sk fake death needs a longer duration and shorter recast.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:09 PM</span>

[J4k]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Don't let my idea fool you. As many know i am veyr Pro tank. And my suggestions also promote that idea, but also helping other areas a bit. But it will help our tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason i want the defense changed to mitgation in the AA line is for a few reasons. One it benefits bruisers BUT moreso MONKS who need that extra mitgation more. 400 extra mitigation may not seem like alot but eveyr little bit helps in tanking. 2) defense is way to easy to cap and is effectivly a waste of AA's for me or anyone. which is partly why no one lieks the AGI line even though it has one of the best raid end abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 3 hit stone skin proc. greatly helps the tankign bruiser deal with those O crap moments when you need a few secs. Which is what a bruiser lacks abilites to deal w spike damage. But the reason i wanted it to have a 90 sec duration 90 sec recast non toggable is because with a 90 sec duration a bruiser will likely be able to stand in at least 2 aoes and DPS if that is what he so chooses before it expires. Also making it non toggleable makes the recast timer start when the buff is initialy cast and not when it drops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally i would like to see fake death pulling implemented to give Bruisers and monks and to a degree shadowknights a role in raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also has issues with some spells such as Why does our offensive stance only proc on melee atks and not ranged?<BR>Why does the monks 30 sec stun mitigation buff have a 3 sec cast time, when the bruiser one is instant? Its an emergency buff it need to be instant.</DIV> <DIV>The Sk fake death needs a longer duration and shorter recast.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:09 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree with this to an extent.  The 90sec stone skin  with a 90seconds reuse timer starting  when you cast it is a bit much though. You could essentially be immune to all ae's a mob as ( figure he AE's once ever 30 seconds you absorb 3 of the AE's and your immunity is bcm up to absorb 3 more. ) I am actually pretty happy with out current stone skin but my only complaint is that it doesnt ward against melee attacks just magical stuff. Thats one thing id like changed as a bruiser.</DIV>

[Miroh]

<div></div><div></div><b><i><font color="#ff0000">lol all I can say is good luck to you bruisers.  After Gaige's lil complaining spree of the monks awhile back I am sure it will happen for the bruisers.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Clearly can see that some never played EQ1 as a monk or eq1 at all and just assume certain things of their class.  Anyways, goodluck with that...I'm glad he changed from a monk, hated seeing that same name with a monk title. You may say you haven't said anything yet but oh I have faith in you that you will deff. start it up.  You never played a monk in eq1....not eq1 for that matter.  Just because they gave brawlers taunt didn't mean HEY you guys are die hard tanks now....Your want to tank is just incredible....Maybe you should roll a guardian or Zerk so you can fill that thirst.   P.S.  I tank Princes Fine, I've tanked Vrak, Pant,(although those aren't worth bragging about)And even in the tank line for Cruor...If you feel you couldn't tank as a monk then that only meant one thing....I don't even have to say it because most already know.</font></i></b><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Miroh69 on <span class=date_text>06-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:54 AM</span>

[zormik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <P>And i dont see why the whole ooo we dont wanna get another class nerfed cause then they will post baddy things about us on there boards waaa. this is dumb never say it again. A class is out dpsing us that shouldnt be = needs to be changed. Changes, nerfs what ever you wanna call them happen in these games and need to happen alot of the time. 90% of the time the changes will make 1 side of the board happier and the other side will cry and whine what ever about it.  Maybe we shouldnt use the word nerf anymore and instead use change cause u see nerf and think of berserkers dps should be negative 500. they should hurt them selves instead of the mob. NO they just need to be toned down a bit. I mean all the berserkers that post here love there class so much that slightly less dps shouldnt make them cry about it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Like i've said before. If you can't outdps a zerk without him using his 30s out of 3 min buffs then you have issues.   If you ask for a nerf of a zerk (which is a pretty lame and selfcentered point of view) then maybe cry for the nerf of a guardian too because they don't do much worse on single target dps and have uber defense by far. After that another class will step up that needs to be nerfed too and so on and so on...</P> <P>Djeezes man if you say something of a class at least say everything and not only the  pre-coloured version plz.  A zerk can dish out very good dps, i will not argue that but it is situational and it is temporary.  On top of that the zerk is an OFFENSIVE tank, so he relies on his dps to hold aggro.  Nerf the dps of a berzerker and he will loose his aggropower.  Which was the only advantage a zerk has over by example a guardian. If you really like what a zerker can do then maybe you should role one.  You don't seem to appreciate the points you are way better in then a zerk (a zerk is only good in groups, he can't solo what you guys can)</P> <P>I really don't understand you want to ruin other classes because you seemed to have chosen a class you don't like that much.  If  a class is happy how they are then other classes always want to see that ruined.  I choose a zerk because it fits my playstile. Sure i can't do what a guardian does sometimes and i can't do what brawlers are good at.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] guys you are by far the best soloclass and still you want to see other classes to get nerfed so you can take over the strong points of that other class as well.</P> <P>If you don't like your class then either play another class or try to improve your class.  Nerfing another class won't make your class better.  The only thing you achieve is the gorilla factor (hitting on your chest claiming you have the best char ingame) which is pretty childish imo. Come with arguments to improve your class instead of nerfing another class.<BR></P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <P>And i dont see why the whole ooo we dont wanna get another class nerfed cause then they will post baddy things about us on there boards waaa. this is dumb never say it again. A class is out dpsing us that shouldnt be = needs to be changed. Changes, nerfs what ever you wanna call them happen in these games and need to happen alot of the time. 90% of the time the changes will make 1 side of the board happier and the other side will cry and whine what ever about it.  Maybe we shouldnt use the word nerf anymore and instead use change cause u see nerf and think of berserkers dps should be negative 500. they should hurt them selves instead of the mob. NO they just need to be toned down a bit. I mean all the berserkers that post here love there class so much that slightly less dps shouldnt make them cry about it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Like i've said before. If you can't outdps a zerk without him using his 30s out of 3 min buffs then you have issues.   If you ask for a nerf of a zerk (which is a pretty lame and selfcentered point of view) then maybe cry for the nerf of a guardian too because they don't do much worse on single target dps and have uber defense by far. After that another class will step up that needs to be nerfed too and so on and so on...</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Djeezes man if you say</FONT> something of a class at least say everything and not only the  pre-coloured version plz.  A zerk can dish out very good dps, i will not argue that but it is situational and it is temporary.  <FONT color=#cc3366>On top of that the zerk is an OFFENSIVE tank, so he relies on his dps to hold aggro.  Nerf the dps of a berzerker and he will loose his aggropower.  Which was the only advantage a zerk has over by example a guardian</FONT>. If you really like what a zerker can do then maybe you should role one.  You don't seem to appreciate the points you are way better in then a zerk (a zerk is only good in groups, he can't solo what you guys can)</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/First off we arnt asking for a nurf to zerkers , never have and never will .  However at the moment zerkers are way above where they shoud be , you complain that brusier want it all ... actaully no what we want what you have , uber dps , mitigation .. the works mate.  Dont ever say a brusier is on par with a zerk cos you plainly know thats not true , you can tank with ease , hold aggro with ease and lets not even go there with AE fights !!!  Deny all you want but a zerker is overpowered at the moment , everyone knows .. now dont take what i said as we want you nurfed because we dont at all the whole point of this thread is that we want to have a mitigation line to bring us along par with the other tanks.  I cant belive a zerker can say if brusier had a mit line we would be overpowered , how can that be the case when giving us miti just improves our ability to take a beating it doesnt touch our dps where you are destroying us.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Now as for the highlighted part , zerkers are an offenisve tank right that needs dps to hold aggro. its the only advantage you have over a guard .. comapre that to us please WE are also an offsenisve tank that needs dps to hold aggro and unlike you we dont have a mitigation line to be even close to a guardain never mind get an advantage over one ... please remember we are a tank aswell its not like im an assasin or anything you know ..</FONT></P> <P>I really don't understand you want to ruin other classes because you seemed to have chosen a class you don't like that much.  If  a class is happy how they are then other classes always want to see that ruined.  I choose a zerk because it fits my playstile. Sure i can't do what a guardian does sometimes and i can't do what brawlers are good at.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] guys you are by far the best soloclass and still you want to see other classes to get nerfed so you can take over the strong points of that other class as well.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Where do we want to ruin ano</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>ther class ? it this post a cry to zerkers everywhere to be nurfed?  no its not is a discussion about how brusiers can be on-par with guards and zerkers </FONT></P> <P>If you don't like your class then either play another class or try to improve your class.  Nerfing another class won't make your class better.  The only thing you achieve is the gorilla factor (hitting on your chest claiming you have the best char ingame) which is pretty childish imo. Come with arguments to improve your class instead of nerfing another class.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Again not trying to get zerkers nurfed trying to get us improved hence the title of the thread and the discussions therein , we are coming up with arguements to improve our class and pointing out that a zerker (an offensive mitigation tank) as a comparison of where we should be is wrong in what way ? </FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Jezzzzzzus christ let me say this once more for those who just read the last posted message and not the entire thread !!!</P> <P>THIS IS NOT I REPEAT NOT A CALL TO GET ANOTHER CLASS NURFED , ITS A CALL TO COME UP WITH IDEAS TO GET OUR OWN CLASS WHERE WE SHOULD BE</P> <P>THANK YOU FOR LISTENING , NOW THE NEXT ZERKER TO POST WHY ARE YOU WANTING US NURFED PLEASE DIRECT TO THIS RESPONSE PLEASE....</P> <P> </P>

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: <P>What can bruisers/monks do better than any other class?</P> <P>That's what I thought.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>    Well, we are the best at Feign Death, as well as the only tanks with Safe Fall... both making us an ideal tank for the Gorenaire fight.  Wel also have the best avoidance, and whiel I know it doesn't add up Vs. a lvl 75 epicx4 mob, it is still noticeable against some weaker conned mobs.   at 80% avoidance I have tanked the phylactery mobs in bonemire (70x4 - White con) and only gotten hit about once every 10-15 seconds.   Were also the only class that isn't frowned upon if they tank with a 2-Hander equipped!  he he he.   =)<BR></P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote:<BR> <B><I><FONT color=#ff0000>lol all I can say is good luck to you bruisers.  After Gaige's lil complaining spree of the monks awhile back I am sure it will happen for the bruisers.</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Clearly can see that some never played EQ1 as a monk or eq1 at all and just assume certain things of their class.  Anyways, goodluck with that...I'm glad he changed from a monk, hated seeing that same name with a monk title.<BR><BR> You may say you haven't said anything yet but oh I have faith in you that you will deff. start it up.  You never played a monk in eq1....not eq1 for that matter.  Just because they gave brawlers taunt didn't mean HEY you guys are die hard tanks now....Your want to tank is just incredible....Maybe you should roll a guardian or Zerk so you can fill that thirst. <BR><BR>  P.S.  I tank Princes Fine, I've tanked Vrak, Pant,(although those aren't worth bragging about)And even in the tank line for Cruor...If you feel you couldn't tank as a monk then that only meant one thing....I don't even have to say it because most already know.<BR></FONT></I></B> <P><BR><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Miroh69 on <SPAN class=date_text>06-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hey einstien,</P> <P>Thsi is not eq1, ultima online, DND online or WoW. This is a different game and yes the people WHO make this game says we are tanks. Last time i checked you were not a developer. So until i see a developer come here and say brawlers are suppsoe to be dps more then tanks. YOU ARE WRONG. Heck in fact the developers have said the exact opposite. WE ARE TANKS. Hmm kinda throw your whole little tantrum out the dang window huh.<BR></P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <P>And i dont see why the whole ooo we dont wanna get another class nerfed cause then they will post baddy things about us on there boards waaa. this is dumb never say it again. A class is out dpsing us that shouldnt be = needs to be changed. Changes, nerfs what ever you wanna call them happen in these games and need to happen alot of the time. 90% of the time the changes will make 1 side of the board happier and the other side will cry and whine what ever about it.  Maybe we shouldnt use the word nerf anymore and instead use change cause u see nerf and think of berserkers dps should be negative 500. they should hurt them selves instead of the mob. NO they just need to be toned down a bit. I mean all the berserkers that post here love there class so much that slightly less dps shouldnt make them cry about it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Like i've said before. If you can't outdps a zerk without him using his 30s out of 3 min buffs then you have issues.   If you ask for a nerf of a zerk (which is a pretty lame and selfcentered point of view) then maybe cry for the nerf of a guardian too because they don't do much worse on single target dps and have uber defense by far. After that another class will step up that needs to be nerfed too and so on and so on...</P> <P>Djeezes man if you say something of a class at least say everything and not only the  pre-coloured version plz.  A zerk can dish out very good dps, i will not argue that but it is situational and it is temporary.  On top of that the zerk is an OFFENSIVE tank, so he relies on his dps to hold aggro.  Nerf the dps of a berzerker and he will loose his aggropower.  Which was the only advantage a zerk has over by example a guardian. If you really like what a zerker can do then maybe you should role one.  You don't seem to appreciate the points you are way better in then a zerk (a zerk is only good in groups, he can't solo what you guys can)</P> <P>I really don't understand you want to ruin other classes because you seemed to have chosen a class you don't like that much.  If  a class is happy how they are then other classes always want to see that ruined.  I choose a zerk because it fits my playstile. Sure i can't do what a guardian does sometimes and i can't do what brawlers are good at.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] guys you are by far the best soloclass and still you want to see other classes to get nerfed so you can take over the strong points of that other class as well.</P> <P>If you don't like your class then either play another class or try to improve your class.  Nerfing another class won't make your class better.  The only thing you achieve is the gorilla factor (hitting on your chest claiming you have the best char ingame) which is pretty childish imo. Come with arguments to improve your class instead of nerfing another class.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I cna out dps zerkers when i use my 20 sec out of 3 min buff Knockout combo master 1. Did you know the most damageing bruiser arts are 1 min + recast.</P> <P>BTW YOU MISSED THE ENTIRE THREAD NO ONE ASKED FOR ZERKER NERFS HERE. although we did compare bruiser to zerker and through that comparison the bruiser does seem to be at a disadvantage.</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: <P>What can bruisers/monks do better than any other class?</P> <P>That's what I thought.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>    Well, we are the best at Feign Death, as well as the only tanks with Safe Fall... both making us an ideal tank for the Gorenaire fight.  Wel also have the best avoidance, and whiel I know it doesn't add up Vs. a lvl 75 epicx4 mob, it is still noticeable against some weaker conned mobs.   at 80% avoidance I have tanked the phylactery mobs in bonemire (70x4 - White con) and only gotten hit about once every 10-15 seconds.   Were also the only class that isn't frowned upon if they tank with a 2-Hander equipped!  he he he.   =)<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>crab i knwo you didn't just say you tanked the phalactery mobs so we are decent tanks. I Just 1 grouped 2 of them and i was 2 boxing a mystic. Those are not even epics IMHO. they are severaly overconned.</P> <P>yes we can tank epics.<BR>no our single target 100-200 more dps then zerker or guards does not compare to a guard/zerks 70+ avoid 80+% mitgation and tanking specials such as vom and tos.</P> <P>like i said dont nerf either guards or zerks<BR>Give brawlers the 400 mitgation aa instead of defense AND a 3 hit melee stone skin proc would help. </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Don't let my idea fool you. As many know i am veyr Pro tank. And my suggestions also promote that idea, but also helping other areas a bit. But it will help our tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason i want the defense changed to mitgation in the AA line is for a few reasons. One it benefits bruisers BUT moreso MONKS who need that extra mitgation more. 400 extra mitigation may not seem like alot but eveyr little bit helps in tanking. 2) defense is way to easy to cap and is effectivly a waste of AA's for me or anyone. which is partly why no one lieks the AGI line even though it has one of the best raid end abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 3 hit stone skin proc. greatly helps the tankign bruiser deal with those O crap moments when you need a few secs. Which is what a bruiser lacks abilites to deal w spike damage. But the reason i wanted it to have a 90 sec duration 90 sec recast non toggable is because with a 90 sec duration a bruiser will likely be able to stand in at least 2 aoes and DPS if that is what he so chooses before it expires. Also making it non toggleable makes the recast timer start when the buff is initialy cast and not when it drops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally i would like to see fake death pulling implemented to give Bruisers and monks and to a degree shadowknights a role in raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also has issues with some spells such as Why does our offensive stance only proc on melee atks and not ranged?<BR>Why does the monks 30 sec stun mitigation buff have a 3 sec cast time, when the bruiser one is instant? Its an emergency buff it need to be instant.</DIV> <DIV>The Sk fake death needs a longer duration and shorter recast.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:09 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree with this to an extent.  The 90sec stone skin  with a 90seconds reuse timer starting  when you cast it is a bit much though. You could essentially be immune to all ae's a mob as ( figure he AE's once ever 30 seconds you absorb 3 of the AE's and your immunity is bcm up to absorb 3 more. ) I am actually pretty happy with out current stone skin but my only complaint is that it doesnt ward against melee attacks just magical stuff. Thats one thing id like changed as a bruiser.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually your right that would be sorta overpowered (about as overpowered as amazzing reflexes for brigands) but they could just change the buff to be toggaleble. which would make the 90 sec recast timer start when the buff drops or they could change thee stone deaf to proc off any hit melee or spell.

[zormik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/First off we arnt asking for a nurf to zerkers , never have and never will .  However at the moment zerkers are way above where they shoud be , you complain that brusier want it all ... actaully no what we want what you have , uber dps , mitigation .. the works mate. </FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Erm so you want the same things as we have?<BR>Ok, then give in your solo-ability, gave in your FD, give in your avoidance, give in your safe fall, give in your heal, ...<BR>then you can have what he have.</P> <P>Seems to me like you should have roled a zerker to me.  The only problem is your char is prolly lvl70 now and you don't feel like starting off from 0 again because you chose the wrong class...</P> <P>Just be serious man.  You are clearly saying here you want to have the things the zerker has aswell...<BR>Guess i better start lvling up my alts then because eq2 will be flooded with bruisers in no time if you have your way.</P> <P>And btw in my guild we use brawlers on every raid if we can.  A monk pulls with tsunami and i take over right after that. I think that comes in very handy.  On top of that you guys have nice constant dps (no burstdps like a zerk, who puts out very high dps and after that goes back to mediocre dps).  That FD of yours have saved our raid multiple times as well.</P> <P>If you want to be able to raid everything as a MT then you chose the wrong class.  I think it's perfectly normal some plate tanks have an edge there as they can't do even half of what you can soloing (look at the poll here, soloing is the biggest part of this game, so it's an important part of this game).  Heck for an xpgroup you should be crazy to turn down a brawler as tank as well.  And let's not start about PVP.  Let's face it a bruiser is a very strong class on a lot of area's. ONLY when it comes to MT-ing raids he has to give the edge to warriors. Is it so bad to be not the best at one aspect of the game, just one?</P> <P>Now about zerkers being overpowered.  The only overpowered aspect lies in the ap's.  The staminaline i agree it might be a bit over the top.  For the rest warriors are where they are supposed to be.  Guardians and zerkers are very strong classes but not overpowered.</P>

[Zigmun]

<P>"If you want to be able to raid everything as a MT then you chose the wrong class.  I think it's perfectly normal some plate tanks have an edge there as they can't do even half of what you can soloing (look at the poll here, soloing is the biggest part of this game, so it's an important part of this game).  Heck for an xpgroup you should be crazy to turn down a brawler as tank as well.  And let's not start about PVP.  Let's face it a bruiser is a very strong class on a lot of area's. ONLY when it comes to MT-ing raids he has to give the edge to warriors. Is it so bad to be not the best at one aspect of the game, just one?"</P> <P>I'm a Bruiser and I agree with you 100%.</P> <P>Bruisers are fighters, were good at all things.</P> <P>Were not dps - although we have good dps, and were not tanks although set up properly we can do a very decent job.</P> <P>I just don't understand half of this thread. </P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote:<BR> <B><I><FONT color=#ff0000> P.S.  I tank Princes Fine, I've tanked Vrak, Pant,(although those aren't worth bragging about)And even in the tank line for Cruor...If you feel you couldn't tank as a monk then that only meant one thing....I don't even have to say it because most already know.</FONT></I></B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah I'm sure you do a lot of that stuff playing backup to Esar.</P> <P>At any rate you want to talk about whining and complaining?  You and yours are the kings of whining and complaining about everything.</P> <P>At least the changes I helped bring about for the brawler community were positive ones. </P> <P>Honestly though I could care less if every bruiser player doesn't like me or agree with me.  I could care less if every monk who has done nothing for the class and wants to see it stay halfass dps and halfass utility or become an EQ1 clone has thier way.</P> <P>It is what it is.  You can imply about my skill (or lackthereof) playing as a monk (or now as a bruiser) all you want.  It matters not.  You and your army don't have enough ammo to dent my ego anyway.<BR></P>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV> Dear lord, is school out or something? :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> No one have anything else better to do then to complain when there is nothing to complain about?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Bruisers are fine the way they are. All you have said it yourselves: "I love my Bruiser because __________".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> So, stop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and talk about strats or something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], never seen so much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing crying on the Bruiser boards before... :smileymad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> It's making me sick. :smileysad:</DIV>

[Dart]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=600194817-22062006>Uht oh, Gaige is a Bruiser now, the apocalypse is upon us all. What was wrong with your monk, or did you betrays so you could have the 3 min mit buff? I thought FoH had too many Bruisers anyhow. /ru Brotzi the peenass. But yes do us all a favor and and lay low. I for one was glad to see you pipe up and shut up for a while there)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=600194817-22062006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=600194817-22062006>Oh and dont gve your self any credit for "any" of the changes to Brawlers, I dont think you had [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e to do with it other than rile others up, and derail good threads)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=600194817-22062006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=600194817-22062006>/much love to you gaige <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and welcome to a DPS class /rofl yup I said it, Regardless what the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in devs said (rem gaige lore and flavor) we are a DPS class with a DPS buff, that is what we bring to a raid, other than tanking a few situational mobs.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=600194817-22062006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=600194817-22062006>Peace to all you wanting to tank better, you really think your guild is going to say "Stop hammer time" Bruisers have an AA mit line now, Scerw guard tanking lets use a Bruiser, Yaaaah! funny [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e :p</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>Um, I haven't been in FoH for like...8 months or so.</P> <P>As for all the other crap - you're wrong.</P>

[Dart]

<P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>No FoH? What happened? BTW on all the other stuff I'm right, I know it hurts, but I am) To be honest you are prolly better off not being in HoF. Kudos for that one move :p /cackle. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2></FONT> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darton wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>No FoH? What happened? BTW on all the other stuff I'm right, I know it hurts, but I am) To be honest you are prolly better off not being in HoF. Kudos for that one move :p /cackle. </FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I left FoH to join Amend?  People do that you know.  As for HoF I do it sometimes, but not often.  Mostly to help guildies with the claymore quest line.</P> <P>As for the other stuff, you're wrong.  We both know it.</P> <P>Nice green font though, I enjoy it.<BR></P>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darton wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>No FoH? What happened? BTW on all the other stuff I'm right, I know it hurts, but I am) To be honest you are prolly better off not being in HoF. Kudos for that one move :p /cackle. </FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I left FoH to join Amend?  People do that you know.  As for HoF I do it sometimes, but not often.  Mostly to help guildies with the claymore quest line.</P> <P>As for the other stuff, you're wrong.  We both know it.</P> <P>Nice green font though, I enjoy it.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>But.... you know I'm right, and that is all that matters) just give in to the dark force fluke! We are DPS and we get asked to tank a couple of gimpy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] raid mobs. All your lore and flavor belong to Moorguard. </FONT>

[J4k]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <P>And i dont see why the whole ooo we dont wanna get another class nerfed cause then they will post baddy things about us on there boards waaa. this is dumb never say it again. A class is out dpsing us that shouldnt be = needs to be changed. Changes, nerfs what ever you wanna call them happen in these games and need to happen alot of the time. 90% of the time the changes will make 1 side of the board happier and the other side will cry and whine what ever about it.  Maybe we shouldnt use the word nerf anymore and instead use change cause u see nerf and think of berserkers dps should be negative 500. they should hurt them selves instead of the mob. NO they just need to be toned down a bit. I mean all the berserkers that post here love there class so much that slightly less dps shouldnt make them cry about it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Like i've said before. If you can't outdps a zerk without him using his 30s out of 3 min buffs then you have issues.   If you ask for a nerf of a zerk (which is a pretty lame and selfcentered point of view) then maybe cry for the nerf of a guardian too because they don't do much worse on single target dps and have uber defense by far. After that another class will step up that needs to be nerfed too and so on and so on...</P> <P>Djeezes man if you say something of a class at least say everything and not only the  pre-coloured version plz.  A zerk can dish out very good dps, i will not argue that but it is situational and it is temporary.  On top of that the zerk is an OFFENSIVE tank, so he relies on his dps to hold aggro.  Nerf the dps of a berzerker and he will loose his aggropower.  Which was the only advantage a zerk has over by example a guardian. If you really like what a zerker can do then maybe you should role one.  You don't seem to appreciate the points you are way better in then a zerk (a zerk is only good in groups, he can't solo what you guys can)</P> <P>I really don't understand you want to ruin other classes because you seemed to have chosen a class you don't like that much.  If  a class is happy how they are then other classes always want to see that ruined.  I choose a zerk because it fits my playstile. Sure i can't do what a guardian does sometimes and i can't do what brawlers are good at.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] guys you are by far the best soloclass and still you want to see other classes to get nerfed so you can take over the strong points of that other class as well.</P> <P>If you don't like your class then either play another class or try to improve your class.  Nerfing another class won't make your class better.  The only thing you achieve is the gorilla factor (hitting on your chest claiming you have the best char ingame) which is pretty childish imo. Come with arguments to improve your class instead of nerfing another class.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL i have issues. Maybe you just dont even have half a brain to play your berserker? i can pull 1k - 1,4k single and group target dps. Our zerker can pull the same single or really close to it and then jump about 800 -1k more on groups of mobs. I know many other berserkers that can pull similar dps so dont bring your oh you have issues if you cant out dps  a berserker speech here brotha because all your doing is putting your self down and making your self look like a big ball of suckage.<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darton wrote:<BR> <FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>All your lore and flavor belong to Moorguard. </FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You realize his name has no "u" in it, right?  Or are you talking about some other guy.</P> <P>How about this startling revelation Darton - if bruisers are a dps class, then the bruiser class sucks.  Because any true dps class in a real guild will annihilate the bruiser contribution.  If a bruiser can do 1k, an assassin can do 1500.  If a bruiser can do 1500 an assassin can do 2k.  Don't even get me started on casters or rogues.</P> <P>So believe what you want - however I'll continue tanking as a bruiser and leaving real damage dealing to the dps classes.  I'm not fond of being a wannabe.<BR></P>

[zormik]

<BLOCKQUOTE>LOL i have issues. Maybe you just dont even have half a brain to play your berserker? i can pull 1k - 1,4k single and group target dps. Our zerker can pull the same single or really close to it and then jump about 800 -1k more on groups of mobs. I know many other berserkers that can pull similar dps so dont bring your oh you have issues if you cant out dps  a berserker speech here brotha because all your doing is putting your self down and making your self look like a big ball of suckage.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I can parse that yes. That's not hard when you're pretty much mastered out.  But bruisers can do that as well. The only time i can parse that is when i'm offtank or tanking normal heroics. But if i don't use jugg/open wounds/destruction then i will mostly parse around 600-800 versus single targets.  Groups we go way beyond any other fighter but that's what we are supposed to do.<BR>Anyway i see posts of all the other plate tank classes about what they can dish out and they come pretty darn close if specced correctly...</P> <P>What is important to know is that when i'm specced towards defense (change to mitigear and resistgear) i don't even do half of the dps i can do in offensive stance.  That's why zerkers will be useless if you nerf their dps because the difference of their dps-output between offensively geared/stance and defensively geared/stance is HUGE. They will lose their aggromanagement if you do. You don't have to forget we only have half of the hate that a guardian can throw at a mob...</P> <P>SOE itself wants zerkers to be like they are.  They want to give us the possibility to dps besides tanking. How else can you explain our ancient T7 skill adds 27% crit change and lowers our miti by 1300 and our avoidance with a big chunck as well.</P> <P>I think SOE wants to give fighters more roles since there aren't enough spots for fighters to fill if the only thing they can do is tank.  SO a zerker can dps, just like a brawler can. Some fighters can dps if offensive, other fighters can buff and heal.  Scouts can debuff, throw in utility, ..., on top of their dps and sorcerers well they need some help because they are supposed to be the T1 dps but they can't use it without getting aggro half of the time...</P> <P>And now answer to the points i made instead of looking for one point and then trying to find something where you can react on.  Keep this thread constructive instead of flaming around.  Just answer to all the points i summed up and then you add something to the conversation. I'm not debating a zerker cannot dps because he can. I'm telling you that the zerker is a potent class as well as the bruiser which each his own strong points.</P> <P>Anyway it seems like a lot of bruisers are happy with how your class is. Hell even i think a bruiser is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] strong class...</P> <P>One last time i ask it, plz let's keep this thread constructive...</P><p>Message Edited by zormik on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[zormik]

<DIV>just want to add something.  Fix the bruises aa's and tone down the warrior staminaline with doubleattack and i think everything is back to what it should be...</DIV><p>Message Edited by zormik on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <DIV>just want to add something.  Fix the bruises aa's and tone down the warrior staminaline with doubleattack and i think everything is back to what it should be...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by zormik on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:06 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>wecome to what we been saying for the last 4 pages lol :smileyvery-happy:

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/First off we arnt asking for a nurf to zerkers , never have and never will .  However at the moment zerkers are way above where they shoud be , you complain that brusier want it all ... actaully no what we want what you have , uber dps , mitigation .. the works mate. </FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Erm so you want the same things as we have?<BR>Ok, then give in your solo-ability, gave in your FD, give in your avoidance, give in your safe fall, give in your heal, ...<BR>then you can have what he have.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/You get close to our avoidance as it with your aa's and thats the point , whers our aa's to give us the mit to bring us on par with you ?</FONT></P> <P>Seems to me like you should have roled a zerker to me.  The only problem is your char is prolly lvl70 now and you don't feel like starting off from 0 again because you chose the wrong class...</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Your wrong and as you just posted a change to the AA line would resolve most of the issues</FONT></P> <P>Just be serious man.  You are clearly saying here you want to have the things the zerker has aswell...<BR>Guess i better start lvling up my alts then because eq2 will be flooded with bruisers in no time if you have your way.</P> <P>And btw in my guild we use brawlers on every raid if we can.  A monk pulls with tsunami and i take over right after that. I think that comes in very handy.  On top of that you guys have nice constant dps (no burstdps like a zerk, who puts out very high dps and after that goes back to mediocre dps).  That FD of yours have saved our raid multiple times as well.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/You are talking about monks mate you do realise that dont you ? monks have tsunami and constant dps due to there haste buffs ... we have burst dps like a zerker mate we are bruisers not monks lol this is the brusier community mate.. as for f/d we are NOT the only class to possess it remember.</FONT></P> <P>If you want to be able to raid everything as a MT then you chose the wrong class.  I think it's perfectly normal some plate tanks have an edge there as they can't do even half of what you can soloing (look at the poll here, soloing is the biggest part of this game, so it's an important part of this game).  Heck for an xpgroup you should be crazy to turn down a brawler as tank as well.  And let's not start about PVP.  Let's face it a bruiser is a very strong class on a lot of area's. ONLY when it comes to MT-ing raids he has to give the edge to warriors. Is it so bad to be not the best at one aspect of the game, just one?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Why should i not be able to raid tank ? i choose a fighter class which is still a tank why did you choose a zerker ? stop complaning about soloing a lot of soloing comes down to player ability and i saw a lvl 38 zerker taking down the named ^^^ be in EL last night so dont give me crap you cant solo and as for group mobs well we all know you destroy em as you should , please again mate not asking for a zerker nurf i group with one every nite and love the little tin can. crazy to turn down a brawler as a group tank i agree however it does happen because peps seems to think plate is the only way to tank as for the final comment " WE ARE WARRIORS TO MATE "</FONT></P> <P>Now about zerkers being overpowered.  The only overpowered aspect lies in the ap's.  The staminaline i agree it might be a bit over the top.  For the rest warriors are where they are supposed to be.  Guardians and zerkers are very strong classes but not overpowered.</P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Bump you said it</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV>Darton wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/much love to you gaige <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and welcome to a DPS class /rofl yup I said it, Regardless what the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in devs said (rem gaige lore and flavor) we are a DPS class with a DPS buff, that is what we bring to a raid, other than tanking a few situational mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/What the crap you talking about , if you dont even know the class you are playing dont bother posting drivel , if we are a dps class then we are so broken beyond belief and need our damage output tripled , hell now i would be happy with that at least then we have a niche to fill but we are tanks plain and simple , where is a warrior dps  ???</FONT><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Gaige wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How about this startling revelation Darton - if bruisers are a dps class, then the bruiser class sucks.  Because any true dps class in a real guild will annihilate the bruiser contribution.  If a bruiser can do 1k, an assassin can do 1500.  If a bruiser can do 1500 an assassin can do 2k.  Don't even get me started on casters or rogues.</DIV> <DIV>So believe what you want - however I'll continue tanking as a bruiser and leaving real damage dealing to the dps classes.  I'm not fond of being a wannabe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/completely agree for a change lol , we picked tank to tank i dont want to accept a second class one do you ? all this is for the benefit of the whole community and ppl should read gungos suggestions cos so far its the best ideas yet , why would anyone not want to improve there class ? we have to fight for what we want and by god thats what we do best </FONT><BR>------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[zormik]

<P>DarkMirrax wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/You get close to our avoidance as it with your aa's and thats the point , whers our aa's to give us the mit to bring us on par with you ?</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Most decent warriors get to 55% avoidance solo. That's not close what you guys can have.  Some uber warriors with the beast equipment might get over 60% solo.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Your wrong and as you just posted a change to the AA line would resolve most of the issues</FONT></P> <P>No, you want to come close to the mitigation of a plate tank.  That's a bit over the top. You guys are moaning that your aa's suck well let them fix them np with that but aa's will never bump your mitigation close to a plate tank's mitigation.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/You are talking about monks mate you do realise that dont you ? monks have tsunami and constant dps due to there haste buffs ... we have burst dps like a zerker mate we are bruisers not monks lol this is the brusier community mate.. as for f/d we are NOT the only class to possess it remember.</FONT></P> <P>Yes i know that i was talking about monks.  I specifically said monk.  You also talk about other classes so why can't i? Brawler FD is better then the other FD's. It's far more relian and it saves raids very frequently...</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Why should i not be able to raid tank ? i choose a fighter class which is still a tank why did you choose a zerker ? stop complaning about soloing a lot of soloing comes down to player ability and i saw a lvl 38 zerker taking down the named ^^^ be in EL last night so dont give me crap you cant solo and as for group mobs well we all know you destroy em as you should , please again mate not asking for a zerker nurf i group with one every nite and love the little tin can. crazy to turn down a brawler as a group tank i agree however it does happen because peps seems to think plate is the only way to tank as for the final comment " WE ARE WARRIORS TO MATE "</FONT></P> <P>You're not a warrior.  You're a fighter.  The only warriors in this game are guardians and berserkers.<BR>Ok i can solo too thank god but i am not capable to the things you guys are capable off.  You guys don't need a group to get deep into the harder instances. And even if you don't use your fd you can solo better then we can.  We can kill a lot too but we have no escape like you guys have.  We just die and have to start over from 0.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Bump you said it</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Isn't it great to have peeps who actually listen to other peeps comments and don't keep a onesided vision on things?  If you guys make a point that is valid i will listen to it. Pity not everybody is capable of doing that and keeps on sidewalking the good points somebody else makes.  Everybody can keep continueing by picking one piece out of a sentence an pull it out of the context...</FONT><BR></P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <P>DarkMirrax wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/You get close to our avoidance as it with your aa's and thats the point , whers our aa's to give us the mit to bring us on par with you ?</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Most decent warriors get to 55% avoidance solo. That's not close what you guys can have.  Some uber warriors with the beast equipment might get over 60% solo.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>/How much avoidance do you actually think we get solo ? i can get fully defensive 70 % and that removes most of my dps .. so thats an increase of only 15 % on a guard/zerk ... now lets compare the mitagation % difference shall we .. is it anywhere near 15% in your favour ? can you see where i coming from , if the whole point is that we are avoidance then why can a plate wearer come even close to us if thats the case then why cant we come close to them for mitigation , i know you agree that the aas need changing and im not arguing there u are spot on mate but theres no need to take it as a personal attack on you , its not like that and im sure you understand the comparisons im making..</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Your wrong and as you just posted a change to the AA line would resolve most of the issues</FONT></P> <P>No, you want to come close to the mitigation of a plate tank.  That's a bit over the top. You guys are moaning that your aa's suck well let them fix them np with that but aa's will never bump your mitigation close to a plate tank's mitigation.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>/Why when you come close to the avoidance of us ? not asking for equal miti as a plate tank because it wouldnt make sence to take the hits of someone wearing plate however we should be close enough to be balanced dont you think .. if theres only 15 % difference in avoidance ill happily take a 15 % mitigaion line increase not too much to ask is it  ? still gives plate tanks a big difference to count but makes us more viable</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/You are talking about monks mate you do realise that dont you ? monks have tsunami and constant dps due to there haste buffs ... we have burst dps like a zerker mate we are bruisers not monks lol this is the brusier community mate.. as for f/d we are NOT the only class to possess it remember.</FONT></P> <P>Yes i know that i was talking about monks.  I specifically said monk.  You also talk about other classes so why can't i? Brawler FD is better then the other FD's. It's far more relian and it saves raids very frequently...</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>/Because comparing monk/bruiser is a dead issue we arnt like guard/zerker .. as for F/D being more reliable thats not true either a necro has a 100 % F/D plus a res :smileywink:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Why should i not be able to raid tank ? i choose a fighter class which is still a tank why did you choose a zerker ? stop complaning about soloing a lot of soloing comes down to player ability and i saw a lvl 38 zerker taking down the named ^^^ be in EL last night so dont give me crap you cant solo and as for group mobs well we all know you destroy em as you should , please again mate not asking for a zerker nurf i group with one every nite and love the little tin can. crazy to turn down a brawler as a group tank i agree however it does happen because peps seems to think plate is the only way to tank as for the final comment " WE ARE WARRIORS TO MATE "</FONT></P> <P>You're not a warrior.  You're a fighter.  The only warriors in this game are guardians and berserkers.<BR>Ok i can solo too thank god but i am not capable to the things you guys are capable off.  You guys don't need a group to get deep into the harder instances. And even if you don't use your fd you can solo better then we can.  We can kill a lot too but we have no escape like you guys have.  We just die and have to start over from 0.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>/Again soloing isnt the issue mate , any class can solo its not about that its about us tanking and you must see that all we want is to on par with you guys , its not asking for a tank to be able to do the job .. yes we can tank and im waiting for everyone to point it out but regardless we are unblanced and need looking at Especially our (well MONKS) aa lines they plain suck.    As for no escape if you picked a fight you cant win should you be picking it :smileywink: (joke btw)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Bump you said it</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Isn't it great to have peeps who actually listen to other peeps comments and don't keep a onesided vision on things?  If you guys make a point that is valid i will listen to it. Pity not everybody is capable of doing that and keeps on sidewalking the good points somebody else makes.  Everybody can keep continueing by picking one piece out of a sentence an pull it out of the context...</FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>/Vice versa hence why i said i agree with you and that your spot on mate with the comment about aa being broken and unlike most you dont flame ppl which is nice (yes thats a complement)</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/You get close to our avoidance as it with your aa's and thats the point , whers our aa's to give us the mit to bring us on par with you ?</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Most decent warriors get to 55% avoidance solo. That's not close what you guys can have.  Some uber warriors with the beast equipment might get over 60% solo.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>in a group situation with an average group... i run about 65/75 avoidance, and 40-45% mitigation.  Your average zerker is gonna run close to that avoidance in a group, with another 35-45% mitigation.  How is that balanced?  you are taking 1/2 the damage of a bruiser in a NORMAL GROUP SETTING, and on top of that, you are ALWAYS mitigating special attack damage at a much higher percentage...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Your wrong and as you just posted a change to the AA line would resolve most of the issues</FONT>No, you want to come close to the mitigation of a plate tank.  That's a bit over the top. You guys are moaning that your aa's suck well let them fix them np with that but aa's will never bump your mitigation close to a plate tank's mitigation.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>no, we're looking for a rough parity between the tank classes.  How about the devs fixing avoidance (making it EQUAL as a damage soaking tool to mitigation...without any funny modifications vs blue/green, white, or yellow+ mobs)  and then setting caps at a much different level...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>An avoidance tank should cap avoidance at 80%, with mitigation at 40%.  A Mit tank should cap avoidance at 40, and mit at 80.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Once thats done, mobs special 'spike' damage attacks should be broken into 3 hits, for 1/3 the damage.  This will level the playing field between the avoidance and mitigation.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Since a total overhaul to the avoidance system is something the devs are afraid of touching, a simpler change would be an aa based mitigation line.  We'd love the rework of the whole avoidance/mitigation systems to make them more balanced, but we'll settle for an aa line change...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/You are talking about monks mate you do realise that dont you ? monks have tsunami and constant dps due to there haste buffs ... we have burst dps like a zerker mate we are bruisers not monks lol this is the brusier community mate.. as for f/d we are NOT the only class to possess it remember.</FONT>Yes i know that i was talking about monks.  I specifically said monk.  You also talk about other classes so why can't i? Brawler FD is better then the other FD's. It's far more relian and it saves raids very frequently...</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>This thread (FUTURE OF THE BRUISER) is about... yup...  the FUTURE OF THE BRUISER.  Not Monks, Not Zerkers, Not Gnomish dancing girls.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Why should i not be able to raid tank ? i choose a fighter class which is still a tank why did you choose a zerker ? stop complaning about soloing a lot of soloing comes down to player ability and i saw a lvl 38 zerker taking down the named ^^^ be in EL last night so dont give me crap you cant solo and as for group mobs well we all know you destroy em as you should , please again mate not asking for a zerker nurf i group with one every nite and love the little tin can. crazy to turn down a brawler as a group tank i agree however it does happen because peps seems to think plate is the only way to tank as for the final comment " WE ARE WARRIORS TO MATE "</FONT>You're not a warrior.  You're a fighter.  The only warriors in this game are guardians and berserkers.<BR>Ok i can solo too thank god but i am not capable to the things you guys are capable off.  You guys don't need a group to get deep into the harder instances. And even if you don't use your fd you can solo better then we can.  We can kill a lot too but we have no escape like you guys have.  We just die and have to start over from 0.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>We're not talking about soloing here.  We're fine on that note.  If you feel like you're not good enough at it, please roll a bruiser, or go to your forums, and post a positive thread making suggestions on how to improve your class.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Bump you said it</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Isn't it great to have peeps who actually listen to other peeps comments and don't keep a onesided vision on things?  If you guys make a point that is valid i will listen to it. Pity not everybody is capable of doing that and keeps on sidewalking the good points somebody else makes.  Everybody can keep continueing by picking one piece out of a sentence an pull it out of the context...</FONT><BR></P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[zormik]

<DIV>ok, you get hit 7 out of10</DIV> <DIV>we get hit 5.5 out of 10 (55% is actually quite good for a warrior solo, i think the true value should be 50% but let's take 55%, i have no idea if 70% is really hard for you guys to get so ...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this mean by example if you would take the raw damage of 100 per hit, you would get 300 damage while a warrior gets 500 damage on him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let's say if a plate tank mitigates around 60% and you mitigate around 45% you would get the following numbers:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This means you will get 165 damage on you...</DIV> <DIV>The plate tank will get 180 damage on him...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know there is something weird with the avoidance system but i can't calculate it like that so i just calculated it this way...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by zormik on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 PM</span>

[zormik]

<DIV>the numbers you are posting are a bit over the top. I haven't seen my zerker been buffed way over 60% avoidance</DIV><p>Message Edited by zormik on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:13 PM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <DIV>the numbers you are posting are a bit over the top. I haven't seen my zerker been buffed way over 60% avoidance</DIV> <P>Message Edited by zormik on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:13 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>check the % difference in mitigation between you and a brusier complared to the % avoidance differance and you will see , now you can see where we are coming from mate .... the fact you can get close to 60 % avoidance is crazy dont you think when we cant get anywhere near your miti and thats the whole valid arguement .. i aint glossing anything over or ignoring anyone input infact i accept any and all arguements in the hope that we can become as good as our brother classes .. like i said mate not a personal attack or a call on crazy viking zerkers to be nurfed and as for guards is about time they had some love ..how about us please .... as for a solution as many have posted a concentration buff withing the agil AA line would be sweet

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV>dble post</DIV><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:54 AM</span>

[Maelwy]

<DIV>Just confirmed some hard numbers with a 70 zerker, wearing tanking gear/buckler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>68% mit, 55% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Myself, (solo) 39% mit, 75% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, we're gonna work with those numbers as actuals (knowing that in a good group build, its going to be much higher)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In 30 seconds, a mob will attack with 10 auto attacks for 500 damage, and a special attack of 5k damage (ignores avoidance).   (this is similar to non raid parses i've tracked)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the Berserker will avoid 4 attacks, taking 6 hits of 500, (3000) mitigating the damage down to 960.  The spike damage will be mitigated to 1600.  Total damage, 2560.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Bruiser will avoid 8 attacks, taking 2 (1000) mitigating down to 610 damage.  The spike will hit us for 3050.  Total damage = 3660 - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are taking approx 70% more damage than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is raw even con miti and avoidance, over a 30 second period. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now....here's the other factors of what happens...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reactive heals fire 3x as often on the zerker.  Wards are used efficiently, giving you their benefit to their fullest, rather than expiring with unused warding potential, and regens are about even in their effectiveness/efficiency for both classes.    Healers have an EASIER time healing you, and dealing with your much more manageable spike damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers proc buffs and damage to the mob WHEN THEY GET HIT!  so, 7 times in 30 seconds, you've turned around and smacked the mob for more damage than your autoattack and ca's entitle you to.  Thus you are more efficient (power wise) at doing damage to the mob, generating hate, and generally taking the mob down quicker, as a result of your skill set.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Bruiser doesn't get a taunt or a damage proc off when we deflect or parry.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now....thats all fun and games at this point, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets talk raid tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You as a zerker can hit your mitigation cap and come close to the avoidance cap in a mt group.  A bruiser can cap avoidance, but wont come close to mitigation cap (55% or so in a mt group is as high as i've ever seen my mitigation, but i'll be generous and say we can probably hit 60-65% mitigation in top gear)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets say you are over your mit cap (as you should be in quality gear in a raid group) and hit 60% avoidance.  The Bruisers gonna be at 65% mitigation vs white con, with 80% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mob is a rather low level target - say level 72, so your excess mitigation above cap really is only mitigating 70% vs yellow, and your avoidance is really gonna only get you 40% avoidance.  The Bruiser will be sitting at about 45% miti, 60% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taking the damage output numbers of 1000 damage auto attack, 10k special attack... here's what we see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerker avoids 4 hits, takes 6, mitigates it to 1800 damage, and takes 3k from special attack.  4800 damage total.</DIV> <DIV>Bruiser takes 4 hits,  2200 damage from aa.  5500 from special.  total damage taken - 7700.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats right, we are taking over 60% MORE damage than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are we doing 60% MORE damage to the mob?  Not a chance.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember, this game is NOT about who is a better solo'er.  we're not disputing that fact.  We're talking about overall functionality as a tank in group and raid settings.  And right now, there is a clear disparity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <P><BR>crab i knwo you didn't just say you tanked the phalactery mobs so we are decent tanks. I Just 1 grouped 2 of them and i was 2 boxing a mystic. Those are not even epics IMHO. they are severaly overconned.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL no man, I was trying to imply that because of the fact that they are WHITE conned, avoidance is actually noticable on mobs like them, which makes tanking them easier!    Yes we can tank, I regularly tank princes, and Gorenaire, and can off tank any mob in the game, even Tarinax.   We are usually better off in a DPS role though. 

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just confirmed some hard numbers with a 70 zerker, wearing tanking gear/buckler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>68% mit, 55% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Myself, (solo) 39% mit, 75% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, we're gonna work with those numbers as actuals (knowing that in a good group build, its going to be much higher)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In 30 seconds, a mob will attack with 10 auto attacks for 500 damage, and a special attack of 5k damage (ignores avoidance).   (this is similar to non raid parses i've tracked)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the Berserker will avoid 4 attacks, taking 6 hits of 500, (3000) mitigating the damage down to 960.  The spike damage will be mitigated to 1600.  Total damage, 2560.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Bruiser will avoid 8 attacks, taking 2 (1000) mitigating down to 610 damage.  The spike will hit us for 3050.  Total damage = 3660 - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are taking approx 70% more damage than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is raw even con miti and avoidance, over a 30 second period. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now....here's the other factors of what happens...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reactive heals fire 3x as often on the zerker.  Wards are used efficiently, giving you their benefit to their fullest, rather than expiring with unused warding potential, and regens are about even in their effectiveness/efficiency for both classes.    Healers have an EASIER time healing you, and dealing with your much more manageable spike damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers proc buffs and damage to the mob WHEN THEY GET HIT!  so, 7 times in 30 seconds, you've turned around and smacked the mob for more damage than your autoattack and ca's entitle you to.  Thus you are more efficient (power wise) at doing damage to the mob, generating hate, and generally taking the mob down quicker, as a result of your skill set.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Bruiser doesn't get a taunt or a damage proc off when we deflect or parry.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now....thats all fun and games at this point, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets talk raid tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You as a zerker can hit your mitigation cap and come close to the avoidance cap in a mt group.  A bruiser can cap avoidance, but wont come close to mitigation cap (55% or so in a mt group is as high as i've ever seen my mitigation, but i'll be generous and say we can probably hit 60-65% mitigation in top gear)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets say you are over your mit cap (as you should be in quality gear in a raid group) and hit 60% avoidance.  The Bruisers gonna be at 65% mitigation vs white con, with 80% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mob is a rather low level target - say level 72, so your excess mitigation above cap really is only mitigating 70% vs yellow, and your avoidance is really gonna only get you 40% avoidance.  The Bruiser will be sitting at about 45% miti, 60% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taking the damage output numbers of 1000 damage auto attack, 10k special attack... here's what we see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerker avoids 4 hits, takes 6, mitigates it to 1800 damage, and takes 3k from special attack.  4800 damage total.</DIV> <DIV>Bruiser takes 4 hits,  2200 damage from aa.  5500 from special.  total damage taken - 7700.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats right, we are taking over 60% MORE damage than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are we doing 60% MORE damage to the mob?  Not a chance.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember, this game is NOT about who is a better solo'er.  we're not disputing that fact.  We're talking about overall functionality as a tank in group and raid settings.  And right now, there is a clear disparity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Mael your numbers are off on bruiser. I can put my mitgation in the high 70's in a mt group setup. Your on the crush server if you need me to show you i can. Did you include our 1306 3 min mitigation buff? I do think we need the agi line to include mitigation instead of defense mostly for monks and for the tankign bruiser. But mainly i would like tosee some damage prevention O crap skill. Like a 3 skin stone proc OR stone deaf to abosrb spell AND melee damage.

[Mentla]

<blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gaige wrote: <p>What can bruisers/monks do better than any other class?</p> <p>That's what I thought.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>    Well, we are the best at Feign Death, as well as the only tanks with Safe Fall... both making us an ideal tank for the Gorenaire fight.  Wel also have the best avoidance, and whiel I know it doesn't add up Vs. a lvl 75 epicx4 mob, it is still noticeable against some weaker conned mobs.   at 80% avoidance I have tanked the phylactery mobs in bonemire (70x4 - White con) and only gotten hit about once every 10-15 seconds.   Were also the only class that isn't frowned upon if they tank with a 2-Hander equipped!  he he he.   =)</p><hr></blockquote>heh, never even checked - can a Bruisa even equip a shield?<div></div>

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mentla wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>heh, never even checked - can a Bruisa even equip a shield?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No.... and yes in a way.   We don't equip shields, however we Do actually have an invisible shield, that is the equivalent of a round shield.   Go check out update notes for Live Update #1, and you will see when they gave brawlers a round shield.  This is more commonly known as Deflection now... but it works like a shield. 

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR>Mael your numbers are off on bruiser. I can put my mitgation in the high 70's in a mt group setup. Your on the crush server if you need me to show you i can. Did you include our 1306 3 min mitigation buff? I do think we need the agi line to include mitigation instead of defense mostly for monks and for the tankign bruiser. But mainly i would like tosee some damage prevention O crap skill. Like a 3 skin stone proc OR stone deaf to abosrb spell AND melee damage.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Nope, left it out since its a short duration buff - i was using rough numbers based on experience of regular groups, and solo, without considering extra mit buffs from short term buffs (self and other classes), since every class has slight variations that can be introduced into the mix.</P> <P>My comparison was meant to show the inequality of the avoidance and mitigation when it comes to effectiveness overall.</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR>Mael your numbers are off on bruiser. I can put my mitgation in the high 70's in a mt group setup. Your on the crush server if you need me to show you i can. Did you include our 1306 3 min mitigation buff? I do think we need the agi line to include mitigation instead of defense mostly for monks and for the tankign bruiser. But mainly i would like tosee some damage prevention O crap skill. Like a 3 skin stone proc OR stone deaf to abosrb spell AND melee damage.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Nope, left it out since its a short duration buff - i was using rough numbers based on experience of regular groups, and solo, without considering extra mit buffs from short term buffs (self and other classes), since every class has slight variations that can be introduced into the mix.</P> <P>My comparison was meant to show the inequality of the avoidance and mitigation when it comes to effectiveness overall.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/I agree theres no point in including the 3 min buff because it just shows that hey every 3 mins i can tank as good as zerker .... you can explain to the raid ......</P> <P>"no i cant tank yet take a quick bio while my buff recharges and stop moaning ok i told you its going to take a while to do this oh and we better take it down in 3 mins or im dead heheh"</P>

[Gungo]

Heh ok i see your point. But really i don't see us as the MT. I think of that buff more as a short duration buff to kill group names or to off tank when needed in raids. Long protracted drawn out epic fights brawlers are not really the intended tank. Our limit should be that buff timer not because with that buff we are lesser tanks.

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Heh ok i see your point. But really i don't see us as the MT. I think of that buff more as a short duration buff to kill group names or to off tank when needed in raids. Long protracted drawn out epic fights brawlers are not really the intended tank. Our limit should be that buff timer not because with that buff we are lesser tanks.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>hmmm just a thought but how about making our 3 min buff castable on others ? to be able to cast that on our guard he would love me forever lol every raid would want a brusier in MT group then :smileywink:

[Gungo]

most gaurds are fairly maxed in mitigation =/

[J4k]

We can still tank without it though. Basically only use it on named fights if im tanking and ift he fight happens to last longer then 3min like the princes encounter goes a bit over, tarinax may last slightly longer but by the time it fades that mob is so debuffed it shouldnt matter. i mean im still pullin about 5k - 5.3k mit without that in the MT group that debuffs is enough to last vs just about anything. Eye gouge line makes a pretty noticeable difference to if you watch how much you avoid before and after useing it.

[J4k]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <DIV>just want to add something.  Fix the bruises aa's and tone down the warrior staminaline with doubleattack and i think everything is back to what it should be...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by zormik on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:06 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I just now saw this and Thats pretty much what ive been saying this entire time when it came to changes. The classes them selves are just fine but there AA's are far superior then most other classes. SO i completly agree with that and have for awhile.

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>J4kik wrote:<div></div>We can still tank without it though. Basically only use it on named fights if im tanking and ift he fight happens to last longer then 3min like the princes encounter goes a bit over, tarinax may last slightly longer but by the time it fades that mob is so debuffed it shouldnt matter. i mean im still pullin about 5k - 5.3k mit without that in the MT group that debuffs is enough to last vs just about anything. Eye gouge line makes a pretty noticeable difference to if you watch how much you avoid before and after useing it.<hr></blockquote>Eye Gouge is imo the best defensive debuff after the swashies Lunge Reversal in game. The difference is quite noticable.<div></div>

[Gungo]

Dont you mean offensive debuff sicne it lowers his combat skills?

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div>Dont you mean offensive debuff sicne it lowers his combat skills?<hr></blockquote>I meant defensive as it helps you tank :O<div></div>

[matai]

<P>Idk when this post was made.. so however.. I've tanked  a few times per lvl ive gained  and never have i had a prob doing it les i have a crap healer nor do i tank slower than other fighter classes.. why would you want les dps for miti? you want more miti then wear the gear thats specd towards miti not stats your call  and who ever else wish's for it.. monks in eq1 werent tanks persay why should we be tanks in eq2 .. since bruisers are a monk more in a since btw.. we have a higher avoid than any other class as well as raw dps thats not matched by most classes we face up to ... as for zerkers never have a i failed to solo one my lvl or a few up from me .. so pls dont try to change what is good and hasnt failed us yet, otherwise we will loose all that we are. </P> <P> </P> <P>Mataive 58th bruiser</P> <P>guild chaos </P> <P>server vox</P>

[Owa]

<DIV><FONT face=Garamond><FONT size=4>They're - we're - discussing raid tanking specifically here, Mataive. </FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond><FONT size=4></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond><FONT size=4>The comparisons with Zerkers are being made with regard to who can tank high-end raids better - not who is a better PvP fighter.</FONT> </FONT></DIV>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mataive wrote:<BR> <P>Idk when this post was made.. so however.. I've tanked  a few times per lvl ive gained  and never have i had a prob doing it les i have a crap healer nor do i tank slower than other fighter classes.. why would you want les dps for miti?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>No one has said we want less dps for mit.  But as a raw comparison, zerkers have MORE mit, MORE ae dps, and MORE aggro generating capability.</FONT></P> <P> you want more miti then wear the gear thats specd towards miti not stats your call  and who ever else wish's for it</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Would you like to show me which gear that is?  I've got a great selection of gear (and gaining more) and while i'm gearing up in t7 fabled, and thats gaining a sizeable chunk of miti, getting a full set of fabled takes a LOT of work.  So...how do NON raiding bruisers gear for miti?</FONT></P> <P>.. monks in eq1 werent tanks persay why should we be tanks in eq2 </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>monks are not bruisers, and eq1 is not eq2.  Enuff said.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Mataive 58th bruiser</P> <P>guild chaos </P> <P>server vox</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[matai]

<P>A monk isnt a bruiser? I kinda said it "KINDA" was .. and btw dont take this in the wrong tone im just conversating with you on your post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but eq2 isnt eq1?  its the sequel to the game... so an enchanter isnt an illusionist/coercer? warrior isnt a gaurdian/berzerker .. they are the true relitaves to those classes.. just like a bruiser is the spawn of a monk from eq1 we werent supposed to be MT's, We are though an off tank as it is said in all the guides for the game in relation to the bruiser, so our miti isnt whats important, its our grp buffs,debuffs, DPS, and our ability to grab agro and give it back to the MT, though like i said i have played tank alot through out my lvls and have never come across a probalem and thats in all sorts of grps. as for the armor theres all sorts of it out there  specially since lu24 so it should be fun looking.. AS for raid tanking.. thats not our roll, wanna get hit by an epic ... then the aa mit line sounds nice ... there is absolutely nothing else wrong with our class idk if you play pvp with the cha but qeynos fear us and that right there should say dont change what is working... though that is on a pvp server not a pve so i dont speak for that since i played a paladin when i played pve. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>thx <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P> ps again dont take this in a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] attitude not my intention</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <DIV>"<FONT color=#ff0000>Personally i would give up dps to be able to tank better who wouldnt  , most of us choose a brusier or indeed monk as we were an archtype of a fighter class.  A hybrid who could tank and do damage , ok so back in the early days we couldnt tank but hey we could do damage, then came the guardians darkest day the day we were actually made into decent tanks and solo gods.  Guards complained they wanted to be the only uber class in the game and brawlers pointed out that even though they lost a bit they still were able to tank better than us due to the mitigation they still had us pwned BUT they were no longer the only choice of tank</FONT>"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And theres the coment about DPS vs miti so it was said earlier on on the very first post in this thread. so as I was saying i wouldnt give it up nor any bruiser i play with in the game, tanks are tanks and bruisers are tanks in their own way, why do you wanna be like all the other classes that can tank in the game, instead of being your own class like we currently are? thx.</DIV><p>Message Edited by mataive on <span class=date_text>06-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mataive wrote:<BR> <P>A monk isnt a bruiser? I kinda said it "KINDA" was .. and btw dont take this in the wrong tone im just conversating with you on your post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but eq2 isnt eq1?  its the sequel to the game... so an enchanter isnt an illusionist/coercer? warrior isnt a gaurdian/berzerker .. they are the true relitaves to those classes.. just like a bruiser is the spawn of a monk from eq1 we werent supposed to be MT's, We are though an off tank as it is said in all the guides for the game in relation to the bruiser, so our miti isnt whats important, its our grp buffs,debuffs, DPS, and our ability to grab agro and give it back to the MT, though like i said i have played tank alot through out my lvls and have never come across a probalem and thats in all sorts of grps. as for the armor theres all sorts of it out there  specially since lu24 so it should be fun looking.. AS for raid tanking.. thats not our roll, wanna get hit by an epic ... then the aa mit line sounds nice ... there is absolutely nothing else wrong with our class idk if you play pvp with the cha but qeynos fear us and that right there should say dont change what is working... though that is on a pvp server not a pve so i dont speak for that since i played a paladin when i played pve. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>thx <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P> ps again dont take this in a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] attitude not my intention</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <DIV>"<FONT color=#ff0000>Personally i would give up dps to be able to tank better who wouldnt  , most of us choose a brusier or indeed monk as we were an archtype of a fighter class.  A hybrid who could tank and do damage , ok so back in the early days we couldnt tank but hey we could do damage, then came the guardians darkest day the day we were actually made into decent tanks and solo gods.  Guards complained they wanted to be the only uber class in the game and brawlers pointed out that even though they lost a bit they still were able to tank better than us due to the mitigation they still had us pwned BUT they were no longer the only choice of tank</FONT>"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Never Ever refer to my posted and take them the wrong way , where in that post do i say to nurf our DPS ? erm nowhere try reading it again please i said and ill quote "Personally i would give up dps to be able to tank better who wouldnt" thats infering that I PERSONALLY WOULD GIVE UP DPS FOR MITIGATION , PERSONALY MEANS ME , MYSELF AND I. I have never once said to that I "wanted" it to be nurfed for dps but I would "PERSONALY" give up some dps for miti.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And theres the coment about DPS vs miti so it was said earlier on on the very first post in this thread. so as I was saying i wouldnt give it up nor any bruiser i play with in the game, tanks are tanks and bruisers are tanks in their own way, why do you wanna be like all the other classes that can tank in the game, instead of being your own class like we currently are? thx.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/You PVE or PVP if you mind me asking ? it is a relvant question.  We are talking PVE here you are aware of that .. if wanted PVE server can be updated seperatly from PVP.  And you said it yourself tanks are tanks and brusiers are tanking in there own way .  There own way STILL MEANS WE ARE TANKS.</FONT>  </DIV> <P>Message Edited by mataive on <SPAN class=date_text>06-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Time for post number 4 for you ......</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Never Ever refer to my posted and take them the wrong way , where in that post do i say to nurf our DPS ? erm nowhere try reading it again please i said and ill quote "Personally i would give up dps to be able to tank better who wouldnt" thats infering that I PERSONALLY WOULD GIVE UP DPS FOR MITIGATION , PERSONALY MEANS ME , MYSELF AND I. I have never once said to that I "wanted" it to be nurfed for dps but I would "PERSONALY" give up some dps for miti.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Ah, but when you say "I would give up DPS - who wouldn't?" you are implying by using the phrase 'who wouldn't', that everyone (or at least the majority) feels as you do. And as you feel that giving up DPS in exchange for better tanking is a good thing, it follows logically that you imagine the majority also feels the same way (<EM>ref.</EM> 'who wouldn't?') </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>So, we are now in a position where you have created the impression that the majority of Bruisers feel that giving up DPS in exchange for better tanking is a good thing. By 'giving something up' rather than having it taken away, one is taking an active, rather than a passive, approach. In order to take an active approach one must have the will do do so - and in this case, 'will' and 'want' are interchangeable.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Thus you <U>want</U> to give up (<EM>ie </EM>reduce) DPS in exchange for better tanking. Thus the majority of Bruisers also want this (<EM>ref</EM>. 'who wouldn't').</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>As having an ability reduced is known as 'nerfing', you want DPS nerfed - and as the majority of Bruisers feel the same way, Bruisers as a whole want their DPS nerfed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>QED</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4><BR> </FONT></P>

[Gungo]

<P>Agh to much reading. Anyway anna is right neither the tanking bruiser nor the DPS bruiser as a whole want thier DPS nerfed. I really think the best option to please both sides is to leave our dps alone. Its not overpowered or much higher then other fighters. </P> <P>1) Then they need to change the defense skill in the agi line to mitigation. This will give monks who badly neeed mitigation an the tanking bruiser a route to take to increase thier tanking potential w/o interferring with the normal DPS aa lines. </P> <P>2) They need to make the bruiser offesnive stance proc off <STRONG><U>ranged</U> </STRONG>and melee attacks</P> <P>3) They need to add a lvl 70 fear spell, because of the recent 20 lvl resist rules.</P> <P>4) Furthermore it would greatly benefit bruisers to have stone deaf changed from spell damage to block all melee or spell damage or have a 3 hit physical damage stone skin buff added to help deal w spike agro like other fighter classes have. </P> <P>also is it just me or does it seem the str aa line requires you to be on top of the mob for auto atk damage to work. Seems to me after lu 24 auto atk was changed form 10 meters to 5 meters. </P>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Agh to much reading</FONT>. Anyway anna is right neither the tanking bruiser nor the DPS bruiser as a whole want thier DPS nerfed. I really think the best option to please both sides is to leave our dps alone. Its not overpowered or much higher then other fighters. </P> <P>1) Then they need to change the defense skill in the agi line to mitigation. This will give monks who badly neeed mitigation an the tanking bruiser a route to take to increase thier tanking potential w/o interferring with the normal DPS aa lines. </P> <P>2) They need to make the bruiser offesnive stance proc off <STRONG><U>ranged</U> </STRONG>and melee attacks</P> <P>3) They need to add a lvl 70 fear spell, because of the recent 20 lvl resist rules.</P> <P>4) Furthermore it would greatly benefit bruisers to have stone deaf changed from spell damage to block all melee or spell damage or have a 3 hit physical damage stone skin buff added to help deal w spike agro like other fighter classes have. </P> <P>also is it just me or does it seem the str aa line requires you to be on top of the mob for auto atk damage to work. Seems to me after lu 24 auto atk was changed form 10 meters to 5 meters. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>LOL. Yeah, sorry. I have too much time on my hands today. No offense to DarkMirrax intended - I just like to pick semantical fights when I'm bored.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Anyway, /agree with points 1 though 4.</FONT><BR></P>

[DarkMirrax]

<P>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] anna talk about semantics or what !</P> <P> </P> <P>Just confued the hell outta me !!!!!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>IT WAS JUST MY OPINION OK PEOPLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARGHHHHHHHH to much free time on some peoples hands !!! :smileyvery-happy:</P>