Yikes Mez from 17.5 seconds to 7.5.

[Eetog]

<DIV>Okay, am I crazy? Did our mez go from 17.5 for the master version of Strongarm to 7.5?!! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>owie, wasted like 50gp now on a spell that has very little use. Can anyone confirm?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>T</DIV>

[Zigmun]

<P>They did reduced the duration drastically.</P> <P>imo - it's not worth using anymore. </P>

[Gungo]

works well for me as a 10 sec mezz.

[J4k]

<DIV>This nerf really made fear alot more useful now. You can technically keep the mob off you for 17 seconds still by mezzing and following it by fear. I honestly the it was a change that was needed so i wont really complain much about it.</DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>This nerf really made fear alot more useful now. You can technically keep the mob off you for 17 seconds still by mezzing and following it by fear. I honestly the it was a change that was needed so i wont really complain much about it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It would make fear usefulIF we had a lvl 70 version of it like we should .. the way the old one scales makes it bloody resistable A LOT ... devs can we have a little look into an upgrade for fear especially as your giving monks an outdated version of CC theres not a lot of point in them having it past lvl 65</P> <P>Ty</P>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>This nerf really made fear alot more useful now. You can technically keep the mob off you for 17 seconds still by mezzing and following it by fear. I honestly the it was <FONT color=#ffff00>a change that was needed</FONT> so i wont really complain much about it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Why was it needed and by whom? I didn't need it.<BR></FONT>

[J4k]

<DIV>Being able to practically perma mez a mob was a change that was needed. If you cant solo anything without perma mezzing it you suck and shouldnt be soloing anyways. It was a needed change. It was a bit over powered and basically made any bruiser in any gear beable to solo the same stuff as a bruiser whos extremly well equiped ( assuming the mob wasnt immune to mez/stun.) A poorly equiped person shouldnt beable to kill the same as a raid equiped person. This changed that for alot of people now. it actually does take the equipment and the skill to kill some mobs solo rather then keeping them mezzed for a minute untill your heal is back up.</DIV>

[Owa]

<FONT face=Garamond size=4><BR></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=1>Being able to practically perma mez a mob was a change that was needed. If you cant solo anything without perma mezzing it you suck and shouldnt be soloing anyways. It was a needed change. It was a bit over powered and basically made any bruiser in any gear beable to solo the same stuff as a bruiser whos extremly well equiped ( assuming the mob wasnt immune to mez/stun.) A poorly equiped person shouldnt beable to kill the same as a raid equiped person. This changed that for alot of people now. it actually does take the equipment and the skill to kill some mobs solo rather then keeping them mezzed for a minute untill your heal is back up.</FONT></DIV><BR><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face=Garamond size=4>So you're saying the change was because raid-equipped players weren't significantly advantaged enough when soloing? I always thought the thinking was to balance the classes against each other and the mobs, not between the raiders and the non-raiders.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>The assertion that skill is now more important is also unconvincing: by making equipment more of a deciding factor in encounters, you are actually making skill less, rather than more, important. This is very apparent on PvP servers, where indifferent players can beat down skilled opponents merely by virtue of having better 'stuff'.</FONT></P>

[Eetog]

<DIV>I'm with Anna on this one...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also see it as taking a skill that was half-way useful and redefining the class because of it. If I was in a group and we didn't have an enchanter or whatever, I tried to ghetto mez to keep us alive. I can only view it from the vantage point of a bruiser in I was thinking that the mez was class defining. In the middle of Rivervale, killing Nightbloods, fear is not an option. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also viewed it as a skill given to us to dissolve the holy trinity.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Eetog on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:06 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>I think the real point was should a fighter have the ability to keep a mob perma mezzed?<BR>Or was that the enchanters/Crowd control classes jobs. <BR>Many people do not like it when abilities get thrown across different classes. Hence the old eq1 Beastlord argument.<BR>The Mezz was given to us at lvl 24? without any thought about future upgrades. Later on during LU13 they gave the lines additional upgrades which it never had. Again without thought. The same thing happned to our stuns. After LU13 they made all stuns after lvl 50 double the duration. Again without thought. So now we had heroic content that was easily soloable. If you think soloing is easy now you should of seen a raid equipped bruiser in T5 w wpns that proced stuns, armour that procced stuns/stilfes. I was tanking heroic yellow content like it was a solo mob now. Stuns are overpowered and a full duration mezz is not even a real bruiser ability. Sadly if anything is part of the bruiser Flavor it would be a fear, but as it stands i like our mezz even if it is only for 10 secs. We are not a crowd control class. </P> <P>class defining? mezz? .. you know i have never heard one person say lets get the bruiser into the group he can mezz<BR>Btw there is no holy trinity in eq2. Enchanters are basically useless and crowd control is generally never necessary. There is only 1 class needed for most content and that is a healer. Depending on the zone you may need a fighter and if it is extremlly difficult for yoru group then you would need either a power regener or DPS. I still don't see many people ever mezz in group. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>

[Eetog]

<DIV>I agree with you, there currently is no holy trinity, but I'm afraid it will go down that path in the future. This is mere speculation on my part. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps I was a bit too overdramatic when I referred to the mez as class defining. I thought it was certainly nice in a group situation that I could turn off the critter for a time. I wouldn't have even minded the 17.5 seconds every 30 mins. It was a "zomg, this may be a wipeout" kinda thing. It was utility, and I for one will never use fear in EQ2 as a way of CC'ing. They run off, and I've had even more come back with em. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can certainly see your point about a T5 bruiser and tanking. I also agree with you about Enchanters, but I kinda formulated my playstyle on the mez, and I will certainly miss it. </DIV>

[Madmoon]

<P>Absolutely.  I completely agree.  Enchanters should be crowd control specialist, not us.  Imagine how we'd howl if they could punch and kick like us :smileyvery-happy:  And the mez is still highly useful.  It can function like a stun.  It can be very nice in pulling.  It can still give you a breather, whether to let a CA come available or to take to the road and flee.  I won't go on, if you cannot find a use for it, well (shrugs.)  As to it diminishing us as Bruisers?  Please.  I NEVER got an invite to a raid or anything else because of our mez.  Was a nice addition, helped on occasion, but if I didn't pummel the bloody monster to a gooey mess, then I wasn't doing my job no matter how well I mezzed!  And keeping even a greenie perma-stunned is reason enough to swing Ye Ol' Nerf Bat.  Soloing Heroic Content is not heroic.  Group content should only be available to (gasp!) groups!  I still wish they had not given Fear to monks, as I do see that as a bruiser trait, and I would like to see more, not less, differentiation between us and those Qeynos twerps, but I have visited the lands, my friends, and I am here to tell you, the sky has not fallen.</P> <P>Redmouser, Bruiser, AB<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>I think the real point was should a fighter have the ability to keep a mob perma mezzed?<BR>Or was that the enchanters/Crowd control classes jobs. <BR>Many people do not like it when abilities get thrown across different classes. Hence the old eq1 Beastlord argument.<BR>The Mezz was given to us at lvl 24? without any thought about future upgrades. Later on during LU13 they gave the lines additional upgrades which it never had. Again without thought. The same thing happned to our stuns. After LU13 they made all stuns after lvl 50 double the duration. Again without thought. So now we had heroic content that was easily soloable. If you think soloing is easy now you should of seen a raid equipped bruiser in T5 w wpns that proced stuns, armour that procced stuns/stilfes. I was tanking heroic yellow content like it was a solo mob now. Stuns are overpowered and a full duration mezz is not even a real bruiser ability. Sadly if anything is part of the bruiser Flavor it would be a fear, but as it stands i like our mezz even if it is only for 10 secs. We are not a crowd control class. </P> <P>class defining? mezz? .. you know i have never heard one person say lets get the bruiser into the group he can mezz<BR>Btw there is no holy trinity in eq2. Enchanters are basically useless and crowd control is generally never necessary. There is only 1 class needed for most content and that is a healer. Depending on the zone you may need a fighter and if it is extremlly difficult for yoru group then you would need either a power regener or DPS. I still don't see many people ever mezz in group. </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>06-16-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[DarkMirrax]

<P><BR>I doubt mezzers will go from the game they still have uses in the right setup , however i do think that all other classes mezz and fears will be stripped away at some point as CC isnt what we are here for (how about a perma mit buff instead)</P> <P><BR> </P>

[J4k]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <FONT face=Garamond size=4><BR></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=1>Being able to practically perma mez a mob was a change that was needed. If you cant solo anything without perma mezzing it you suck and shouldnt be soloing anyways. It was a needed change. It was a bit over powered and basically made any bruiser in any gear beable to solo the same stuff as a bruiser whos extremly well equiped ( assuming the mob wasnt immune to mez/stun.) A poorly equiped person shouldnt beable to kill the same as a raid equiped person. This changed that for alot of people now. it actually does take the equipment and the skill to kill some mobs solo rather then keeping them mezzed for a minute untill your heal is back up.</FONT></DIV><BR><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face=Garamond size=4>So you're saying the change was because raid-equipped players weren't significantly advantaged enough when soloing? I always thought the thinking was to balance the classes against each other and the mobs, not between the raiders and the non-raiders.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>The assertion that skill is now more important is also unconvincing: by making equipment more of a deciding factor in encounters, you are actually making skill less, rather than more, important. This is very apparent on PvP servers, where indifferent players can beat down skilled opponents merely by virtue of having better 'stuff'.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>your not very smart are ya. Skill only takes a player so far. Skill doesnt make a mob hit you for 400 instead of 1000. Mitigation does that. Where do you get mitigation???? from getting better equipment. Where does good equipment come from? raiding. Another example Skill doesnt make you avoid more avoidance make you avoid more. Where do you get this avoidance from your gears + defensive + deflection + parry and Agility.</P> <P>Skill does play a part in alot of things when it comes to raiding, grouping and soloing you do but there is no skill involved in mezzing a mob for 2 minutes. I could run around with no armor on completlyu naked and kill a white con mob. The only skill that was involved in soloing was timeing your stuns right so you could keep the mob stunned for a good 8 seconds then mez it and do this over and over again. </P> <P>Now PVP and This are completly different subjects and its dumb you would even bring this up in a arguement about soloing mobs useing mez and fear. For started Mez before LU24 wasnt a 25 second duration, Fear also wasnt its normal duration. PVP take alot more skill then soloing a mob that you can make ultimatly not hit you ever.</P> <P>Can you honestly come up with a decent answer to why you would think a raid equiped person shouldnt be at an advantage compared to a player that doesnt raid and runs around in crafted gear. The point of raiding is progression. You go from the crafted gear to semi good gear from the easier raid zones and then the extreme gear from the hard ones. Yes This gear will help you suggnificantly when soloing and can mean the different between being hit for 400 or 1000, or avoiding 5 attacks vs avoiding 10 attacks. </P> <P>Now skill falls in under knowing WHEN to use your stuns now and when to use your mez and fear and when is a good time to use your heal or what mobs to go defensive for or what mobs to go offensive for. Should i pull the mob useing a str doll or use a stam doll? Which combat art should i use inbetween while my stuns arnt up. How many combat arts should i use vs how much should i auto attack to maintain my mana?  PRE LU24 all you had to do was hit Stun Mon... Hit Mob... Stun Mob... Hit Mob... Stun Mob... Hit mob... Mezz mob.... Wait for stuns and other combat arts to come back up and repear process over. that isnt skill thats something any person in the game with 1/4th of a brain can figure out.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:32 PM</span>

[Owa]

<P><FONT face=Garamond size=4><BR></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=1>your not very smart are ya. Skill only takes a player so far. Skill doesnt make a mob hit you for 400 instead of 1000. Mitigation does that. Where do you get mitigation???? from getting better equipment. Where does good equipment come from? raiding. Another example Skill doesnt make you avoid more avoidance make you avoid more. Where do you get this avoidance from your gears + defensive + deflection + parry and Agility.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Skill does play a part in alot of things when it comes to raiding, grouping and soloing you do but there is no skill involved in mezzing a mob for 2 minutes. I could run around with no armor on completlyu naked and kill a white con mob. The only skill that was involved in soloing was timeing your stuns right so you could keep the mob stunned for a good 8 seconds then mez it and do this over and over again. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Now PVP and This are completly different subjects and its dumb you would even bring this up in a arguement about soloing mobs useing mez and fear. For started Mez before LU24 wasnt a 25 second duration, Fear also wasnt its normal duration. PVP take alot more skill then soloing a mob that you can make ultimatly not hit you ever.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Can you honestly come up with a decent answer to why you would think a raid equiped person shouldnt be at an advantage compared to a player that doesnt raid and runs around in crafted gear. The point of raiding is progression. You go from the crafted gear to semi good gear from the easier raid zones and then the extreme gear from the hard ones. Yes This gear will help you suggnificantly when soloing and can mean the different between being hit for 400 or 1000, or avoiding 5 attacks vs avoiding 10 attacks. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Now skill falls in under knowing WHEN to use your stuns now and when to use your mez and fear and when is a good time to use your heal or what mobs to go defensive for or what mobs to go offensive for. Should i pull the mob useing a str doll or use a stam doll? Which combat art should i use inbetween while my stuns arnt up. How many combat arts should i use vs how much should i auto attack to maintain my mana?  PRE LU24 all you had to do was hit Stun Mon... Hit Mob... Stun Mob... Hit Mob... Stun Mob... Hit mob... Mezz mob.... Wait for stuns and other combat arts to come back up and repear process over. that isnt skill thats something any person in the game with 1/4th of a brain can figure out.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=1>Message Edited by J4kik on <SPAN class=date_text>06-16-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:32 PM </SPAN><BR></FONT></P><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Not only do you miss the point heroically, but in a badly-worded, mis-spelled, ill-argued, and yet perfect piece of irony you ascribe my opinion to a lack of intellect. If this is your post <EM>after </EM>editing one can only imagine its initial state.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>If you're keen to play the 'who's smarter' game, you may wish to practice a bit first.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4><BR> </FONT></P>

[J4k]

<DIV>lol lets play the spelling game. Typically this is used when the person is desperate " OMG YOU CANT SPELL SO I OWN YOU " Seriously the fact that your crying cause you cant perma mez a mob anymore ALONE shows how much of skill you lack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So maybe instead of trying to act smart by useing some nice words and calling someone out on spelling mistakes how about you post something that may actually prove your point? because oh you dont taket he time to fix your spelling errors aint convinsing me or anyone else that the so very intellegent posts you have made about raid equiped players shouldnt beable to solo better then non raid equiped players because everything must be based off skill aint cutting it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Face it 25second mez on a 30 second reuse timer and 8 seconds worth of stuns = no skill involved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>have a nice day</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Oh and after checking your gear on eq2players i can now see why you would argue this. YOUR LEVEL 68 and have as much hp as i did at lvl 60. cmon now.</DIV><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 PM</span>

[Owa]

<P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Point missed once again. At least you're consistent. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>My gear is a bit crappy, true - but it's a little harder to get all the nice stuff on PvP servers - especially when there's only one proper raiding guild and you ain't in it. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I'm <EM>very</EM> impressed with your equipment though (Probably. If I'd bothered to look) because that's exactly the sort of thing that I think is impressive in a bloke: pretend armour in a computer game. Well done you're my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hero. </FONT></P>

[J4k]

<DIV>do you even know what your own point is? You can keep posting about a point missed over and over but i honestly dont think you even know what this point you keep bring up is? How about you enlightne me. What is your point?</DIV>

[Owa]

<P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Ok. Simply put, I took issue with your argument that mez had to be weakened in order to let the better equipped player have more of an advantage  - and with your absurd equation concerning equipment, Combat Arts and player skill.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>It's all there in the initial post if you need to read it again  - although it doesn't strike me as particularly oblique.</FONT></P>

[J4k]

<P>so silly. Have you ever played an MMO? Do you know what the word Progression means? You act so smart but im guessing have no idea what this means. Possibly go look it up. If better equiped players didnt have an advantage there wouldnt be a reason for different equipment. There wouldnt be a reason for tiers or for any raid zones really. We should all just run around in crafted armor mezzing mobs permanently so we can be equal! Useing your logic a player who has the best gear in the game should be equal to a player who has 0 equipment and runs around naked. Go play diablo or something your in the wrong game if you think everyone should be equal.</P> <P>I even took the liberty of getting this definition for you</P><PRE><STRONG>progression</STRONG> n 1: a series with a definite pattern of advance </PRE><PRE> 2: a movement forward; </PRE><PRE> 3: the act of moving forward toward a goal </PRE><PRE>Basically It means advancing. Going from that crafted armor to raid armor to fight harder mobs. Be it solo mobs heroic or epic mobs its to help you kill these mobs easier.</PRE><PRE> </PRE><!-- google_ad_section_end --><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:22 PM</span>

[Owa]

<P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I'm afraid you're attributing things to me that I never said. This is not a recommended approach when attempting to argue a case. Especially when the statements in question are accessible by scrolling your mouse up...</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Of course if you can point out exactly <EM>where</EM> I opined that there should be no character progression, no different tiers of equipment and that 'a player who has the best gear in the game should be equal to a player who has 0 equipment and runs around naked' I'll be impressed, as it will require you to rewrite my post - and I think I'll be able to spot your distinctive prose stylings...</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Like most people of limited intelligence you are reacting to what you<EM> hope</EM> someone is saying rather than what they are <EM>actually</EM> saying. This is a popular device as it allows one to righteously defend a postion that one is confident of - despite the fact that no one is attacking it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>By 'explaining' how EQ2 manages the mechanics of character and item progression you are not refuting my criticism of your initial post - and you're not introducing any data that I disagree with. My argument was with your <EM>initial</EM> contention, and subsequent posts suggesting that I'm not in favour of a tiered system are not only irrelevant but patently, glaringly, not true. You are merely demonstrating, once again, that you have signally failed to see the point. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Look, we can go round and round if you like, but personally I'd rather not waste my time, nor take up any more of this thread with further and increasingly futile attempts to help you read properly.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>06-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 AM</span>

[J4k]

<DIV>Aww but its so much fun. I love how you italic special words its really neat to read!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=4>The assertion that skill is now more important is also unconvincing: by making equipment more of a deciding factor in encounters, you are actually making skill less, rather than more, important. This is very apparent on PvP servers, where indifferent players can beat down skilled opponents merely by virtue of having better 'stuff'.</FONT></P> <P>Equipment is always a deciding factor. So is skill and so is having a brain. You have it in your head that only 1 thing can help you with soloing so it much be either skill or equipment. Well it takes both to get anywhere in this game. Go try and tank The Princes in Barren sky with the gear you have on now. Now watch a raid equiped bruiser tank the mob you will notice a LARGE difference in there ability to not die. No the skill in the fight falls under you keeping aggro, you knowing how to get aggro from other people. For some bruiser its a matter of which equipment to use for which mobs.</P> <P>Now take those same 2 bruisers put them up gainst a green heroic. You prob wont notice to large of a difference in them soloing IF they do have some skill. blue con mob will be alot more challenging for the guy in crafted gear thats just how it is. You cant take hits in crap armor you die. Now the raid equiped bruiser will have a better chance of killing this mob if he times his stuns correctly debuffs etc and can put out the right amount of dps to kill the mob.</P> <P>Skill armor weapons master spells it all plays roles in being able to do anything.</P> <P>Crying cause you cant perma mez a mob shows a large lack skill, armor, masters, and weapons. I can understand why your so upset cause you dont fall under the raid equiped bruiser but you gotta deal with it. SoE even said awhile back they didnt intend for heroics to be soloable especially ones that are withing a few lvls with you or evencon and up.</P></DIV>