- The damage changes to the Savage Blows, Burn Through, and Sucker Punch lines have been reverted.

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>glad they reverted our CA nerf <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[wayfaerer]

<div></div>They un-nerf as quietly as they nerf.SOE works in mysterious ways.<div></div>

[RustyB]

now all they gotta do is fix our mezz and fear and I'll be happy.  can't say much about the stun nerfs cuz they effect every melee class

[J4k]

<DIV>I really am not the upset about the nerf of mezzes and fear as much as i was about the damage i can live with mez/fear nerfed but the whole combat art damage thing made no sense. I can actually see where the devs are coming from when they decided to nerf mez.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=6>BOOYAH</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Who said feedbacking was pointless on test and well those Pm's i sent.  </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Bruiser changes:<BR></STRONG>- The damage changes to the Savage Blows, Burn Through, and Sucker Punch lines have been reverted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fear and mezz no longer on same timer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now how about that mitgation AA, the increased roughhousing proc %, and a 3 proc stone skin buff i asked for to help w raids and tanking =p.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Edit: btw crits are still nerfed, but i cna live w a 4% reduction on crits.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:33 PM</span>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wayfaerer wrote:<BR> They un-nerf as quietly as they nerf.<BR><BR>SOE works in mysterious ways.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is as good a time as any to remind folks that not every change made on Test is pushed live. While the majority are, it is not uncommon for us to want something evaluated on Test before we decide whether it should be included in the live update.</P> <P>Though we usually make threads talking about major system changes (as with the control revamp), generally when adjusting individual spells we don't make a thread. In such cases, the changes are usually based on general balance.</P> <P>Since the LU24 control changes will have an impact on the way bruisers achieve their damage output, after playtesting we decided not to push the other changes live. In other words, the Test server was very useful in allowing us to evaluate the situation. That's why we're very glad to have it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>Very well written.   I'd like to think OUR input helped you arrive at that decision in some way also.   Thanks Brutha!</DIV>

[Maelwy]

<P>lol, amazing how happy we are to ONLY be hit by a 4% crit nerf.  hate to play the cynic, but  many people have often said this is how soe works...threaten the big nerf, then implement the small nerf after the community outrage, and the community will end up HAPPY!  </P> <P>Thank you for not killing the class.  Now balance avoidance vs mitigation, and upgrade our taunting ability, and we'll be in great shape</P> <P> </P>

[Jenguro]

<DIV>This shows that the game developers *are* looking at the opinions of players when making their final decisions.  I agreed that the damage to Bruisers should not be reduced without careful consideration about its implications for the class.   I do agree with the mesmerize nerfs however, though perhaps they could consider something to compensate for its loss.  If Bruisers and other classes cam mez and stun for long durations, why would you need an Enchanter?  I doubt that this nerf was directed at Bruisers specifically, but rather was done to address legitimate concerns in the Enchanter community.</DIV>

[Nosnem]

<P>Will LU24 be weds?</P> <P> </P>

[aislynn00]

<DIV>With the control changes in place (which reduce the tanking ability of brawlers in relation to guardians) and the unnerf of bruiser DPS, it would seem SOE have reversed their LU13 position on the virtual interchangeability of fighters and returned to their original vision of classes being balanced based on their overall capabilities, a decision which I, for one, can only applaud.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers appear to be damage dealers who are able to tank in a pinch, much as, say, swashbucklers and brigands, only with a heavier emphasis on tanking (reasonable enough, considering their archetype.)</DIV>

[Lysanthir Ahmquissar]

<P>Rarely do I nowadays read a thread and feel joy.</P> <P>Thanks for listening. :smileyhappy:</P>

[wcheet]

is this changed going to be implemented in LU24?

[Elephant]

<DIV>Hope they will increase mezz duration by a little bit too... not as long as currently (now it is insanely long), but I would really like final T6 ability to last for at least 15 seconds after revamp... or alternatively, we could use +MIT AA ability!</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Elephanton wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hope they will increase mezz duration by a little bit too... not as long as currently (now it is insanely long), but I would really like final T6 ability to last for at least 15 seconds after revamp... or alternatively, we could use +MIT AA ability!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yea our mez duration need to be in line with swashbuckler's mez (their mez has the same 60sec recast, but double the duration than ours.)<BR>

[Elephant]

<DIV>...plus swashys have chain and have nice tanking AA setup... which makes them pretty much us with 2x longer mezz... </DIV>

[Storm_Runner]

<DIV>Nosnemi1...as far as I know LU 24 will still be going live on June 14th.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I am very glad they reverted those changes.  I solo quite a bit and was not looking forward to having reduced CC skills AND reduced damage.  If I have to choose between the 2 though I choose to have less CC and more damage.  It fits in more with the way I play my Bruiser.  I solo a lot and when I do group I am usually with the same group and have a Pally who is 2 levels above me as MT.  I am almost never MT.  Thats the way I like it...he tanks and I concentrate on bringing the pain.  Granted once I open up I can pull agro off of him at will but the mobs usually don't last long enough for it to matter.  I concentrate on doing damage and taking care of adds that he might not see...especially if they go for the squishies.  He's better at pulling anyway.  He ninja pulls so the next mob is usually incoming as we're finishing up the current one.  I just want to hit things and enjoy that warm feeling I get when I see that the mob has been reduced to a whimpering pile of bleeding flesh.:smileywink: Ah...It's good to be the Bruiser.:smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Arciahand]

Yay!! nerfage minimized, resume killing yay!!!

[physht]

<DIV>I want you to increase DPS BUFF more. <BR>It is envied that Monk can raise Hast up to about 100% with BUFF. <BR></DIV>

[Gravve]

<P>The Furture is looking bright once again ,  a huge thank you goes out to SoE development team on this issue along with the many players who tested and posted comments about the changes !  Although I'm still alittle upset about a few of the changes ,  I can live with these .   The fact that SoE actually listened to us and our countless post complaining about it and changed it brings back my faith in them once again .  I will say this though ,  Moorgard brought up a good point it isnt offical yet guys so now is the time to "Keep our mouths shut "  sit back and see what happens .  I guess what I am trying to say is don't make them mad ?  lol .  Thank you once again Moor , Development team and all of the Bruiser community .  ALSO to other classes and other players  who helped in makeing this possible . </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gravve]

By the way , dont look a gift horse in the mouth ,  nows not the time to start asking for more things ie more dps mod buffs ect .  Just my 2 cp .

[-UGG-Andy]

<DIV>"I want you to increase DPS BUFF more. <BR>It is envied that Monk can raise Hast up to about 100% with BUFF. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And monks envy your high damage Combat Arts.</DIV> <DIV>We are about even now,any buff to one or the other will unbalance the two classes.</DIV>

[physht]

<DIV>I learnt high damage Combat Arts was in Bruiser for the first time.</DIV> <DIV>I do not think that there is a big difference compared with Monk.</DIV> <DIV>I think that Monk is superior to Bruiser thanks to Hast Buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the thing that it is possible to boast of Bruiser?</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>Yeah but mitigation instead of defense on the agi AA tree will effect both brawlers and not unbalance either.</P> <P>And if the devs need an idea for a bruiser spell in FD how about a 3 proc stone skin buff on a  1.5min duration 3 min recast timer non toggable. Would help the bruiser stand in aoe's during raids to help dps mobs. Also would help on pulling for raids. And will also help for tanking when they take a dam spike. And can be semi comparable to tsunami.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 PM</span>

[Eetog]

<P>Thank you Moorgard. Faith is easily shaken and easily restored. /cheer for the test server. </P> <P> </P> <P>Thank you from the bottom of my bruiser's heart. </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <P>lol, amazing how happy we are to ONLY be hit by a 4% crit nerf.  hate to play the cynic, but  many people have often said this is how soe works...threaten the big nerf, then implement the small nerf after the community outrage, and the community will end up HAPPY!  </P> <P>Thank you for not killing the class.  Now balance avoidance vs mitigation, and upgrade our taunting ability, and we'll be in great shape</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>get over it..

[masakre]

<DIV>I read this and started dancing in my seat! WTG SOE. Guess I will need to level up my bruiser on test to make sure SOE listens to my input, since it looks like they only listen to the people on the test server who /feedback, not the people that just post on the boards. Glad some of you came through and played the bruiser on test, and saved the rest of our arses this time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>side note - I would happy if they did nothing more to my class. I see some of you keep asking for more now that this is over, can't you just be happy with what you still have? Stop asking for more, and maybe they won't screw with us any more. Ask for more, get more, but never what you wanted.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by masakre on <SPAN class=date_text>06-07-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:02 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by masakre on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:03 PM</span>

[Maelwy]

<P>i'm disgusted with community's easy acceptance of mediocrity....</P> <P> </P> <P>Hey great!  they didn't kill our class!  we're still nerfed, and they haven't fixed our avoidance, or given us a mitigation aa, but thts okay,  cuz it could have been worse!</P> <P> </P> <P>LOL...  you people are so used to being abused by SOE's tactics that you just take it like a champ and smile.</P> <P>/shakeshead</P>

[Zigmun]

<P>I think the response from SoE is very telling.</P> <P>We are quote the "jack of all trades" class.</P> <P>How I read that is we are not mean't to tank or dps - we are "jack of all trades fighters." </P> <P>Ultimately what does this mean?  Well we don't have a core ability to hang our hat on. What I mean by that is if we were helaers - and they nerfed our healing - we could say - heh we need our healing! or if we were guardians and we were the "tank" class - and they nerfed our mitigation - we could say - heh we need that!</P> <P>As it stands now - being classed "jack of all trades" as long as we are somewhere in the middle in the relation to other classes  - the dev's can argue we are where they want us to be.</P> <P> </P>

[Gobbwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <P>i'm disgusted with community's easy acceptance of mediocrity....</P> <P>Hey great!  they didn't kill our class!  we're still nerfed, and they haven't fixed our avoidance, or given us a mitigation aa, but thts okay,  cuz it could have been worse!</P> <P>LOL...  you people are so used to being abused by SOE's tactics that you just take it like a champ and smile.</P> <P>/shakeshead</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Totally agree.  While they are appearing not to nerf our CAs' damage, they are still reducing our AA crit hits.  Mantis bolt will no longer proc off of auto attack.  Stuns are being reduced (while this is widely agreed that it is necessary to one degree or another, it is still a nerf).  The effectiveness of our CC has been reduced (minor, but still a nerf).  Couple that with what Maelwys said and the fact that MONTHS after the release of KoS, we STILL do NOT have our own class hat (graphics are minor, but it is the principle of the thing, most everyone else got theirs with the expansion, we get squat.)  However, if it's as fugly as the Templar hat, I'd rather keep the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bowl personally. </P> <P> </P> <P>Yea, breathe a sigh of relief that it won't be as bad as feared, but keep in mind we are being nerfed... yet again.  Counting this one, how many LUs since 13 have we received nerfage?<BR></P>

[TheSummoned]

I'm disguted at the guys who are disgusted at the bruiser community. From expirience this is by far one of the best communities of all classes. The changes to stuns was needed as it trivialised heroic content. I could duo any yellow mob (and I mean any!) with a brigand and not take a hit because of the ability to stun lock the mobs. And I do not think that SOE will end here. With the stun nerfs we are no longer as viable heroic tanks as we were before and, as Gaige said in the guardian thread started by non other then -Anoein-, we will probably see changes in how avoidance works. Or at least deflection. A wise man once told me:  "Don't count your chickens before they are hatched." <div></div>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR>I'm disguted at the guys who are disgusted at the bruiser community. From expirience this is by far one of the best communities of all classes. <BR><BR>The changes to stuns was needed as it trivialised heroic content. I could duo any yellow mob (and I mean any!) with a brigand and not take a hit because of the ability to stun lock the mobs.<BR><BR>And I do not think that SOE will end here. With the stun nerfs we are no longer as viable heroic tanks as we were before and, as Gaige said in the guardian thread started by non other then -Anoein-, <FONT color=#ffff00>we will probably see changes in how avoidance works</FONT>. Or at least deflection.<BR><BR>A wise man once told me:<BR> "Don't count your chickens before they are hatched."<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>yes, as mg responded in my post about avoidance vsa mitigation, this is a system that is looked at and talked about often by the devs.  apparantly it's such a big system and making any changes would create enough of a headache that it's been permanently back burnered....  yes, what is a daily toil for us, is a headache for SOE that they'd rather forget about.  </P> <P> </P> <P>And the community condones this behavior when we DONT ask about it, and when we don't complain about a small nerf.  </P> <P>Stop accepting mediocrity.  Demand attention.  Demand positive modifications.  Don't give in and settle for a lesser nerf, when a fix is really whats needed.<BR></P>

[MutantCrock1905]

So sad, you people don't even see SoE's actual intention. Their real intention was to take our minds off of the fact that our class is highly unbalanced with our other side ( monk ) by bluffing to nerf our dps CA that somewhat make our class what it is. So, they don't nerf our CA, in return you rejoice, but at the same time, what are we given? nothing.. Monks still have 100% haste.. no matter the ability that our CA do more over all damage, a monk does higher DPS and they tank better. Wake up and smell the coffee, open your eyes and look at the underlying and not just what is placed in front of you.

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MutantCrock1905 wrote:<BR> So sad, you people don't even see SoE's actual intention. Their real intention was to take our minds off of the fact that our class is highly unbalanced with our other side ( monk ) by bluffing to nerf our dps CA that somewhat make our class what it is. So, they don't nerf our CA, in return you rejoice, but at the same time, what are we given? nothing.. Monks still have 100% haste.. no matter the ability that our CA do more over all damage, <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>a monk does higher DPS and they tank better.</FONT></STRONG> Wake up and smell the coffee, open your eyes and look at the underlying and not just what is placed in front of you.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>With talk like that, I'm glad my guild didn't inivte you.  You claimed to be the best at what you do... and I say thats a dirty lie.  I never let a monk out dps me... and monks tank like dirt.  if you say they are better than you... then I suggest you learn how to play a bruiser properly.  <BR></DIV>

[MutantCrock1905]

<DIV>your just a forum troll, and a n00b. that is all</DIV>

[Gravve]

<DIV>To Be 100% totally honest ..... Why dont they just give up and combine all the classes back together like it was in eq1 ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warrior - Guardan / Berserker</DIV> <DIV>Necromancer - Necro / Warlock</DIV> <DIV>Cleric - Inqusitor / Templar</DIV> <DIV>Druid - Warden / ?? (forgot their counterpart)</DIV> <DIV>Shaman -Mystic / Fury</DIV> <DIV>Bawler - Monk / Bruiser </DIV> <DIV>Mage - Summoner / ?? (same thing )</DIV> <DIV>Wizard - Wizard </DIV> <DIV>Enchanter - Coerceror / illussionist</DIV> <DIV>Bard - Dirge / Troubador</DIV> <DIV>ect . ect. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>whatever , the point that im trying to get at is "More does NOT always mean better"  I'll tell you this much ,  if they combine them back together and go back to the way they were in eq1 you would without a doubt see alot less complaints .  I honestly feel this issue should be brought up to the dev. team and looked into more I mean come on EQ 1 lasted this long and is still going , obviously they must have done something right with it for it to last so many years .  and OMG please bring back the huge raids .  EQ2 mobs are no where near as hard as eq1 mobs -  why did it take 72 people to do raids in eq1 vs 24 ?  cause they were twice as hard !  </DIV>

[Maelwy]

<DIV>eq1 called.  it misses you.  go back.</DIV>

[Gravve]

you do know that honestly whatever we say really doesnt matter ,  its SoE's game and their running the show , so why dont you hush up quit complaining and take it like a man ?  Be thankful that they decided not to nerf us as much as they wanted and deal with it .  If you want to tank go play a Guardian or some other plate tank class.  I'm personally happy that they arent beating us to the ground with the nerf bat like they planned to .  I can live with some of the changes .  If your really that upset about monks and bruisers and YOU think monks are better ,  go betray be a monk and  leave us  bruisers alone . <p>Message Edited by Gravve on <span class=date_text>06-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Gobbwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR>I'm disguted at the guys who are disgusted at the bruiser community. From expirience this is by far one of the best communities of all classes. <BR><BR>The changes to stuns was needed as it trivialised heroic content. I could duo any yellow mob (and I mean any!) with a brigand and not take a hit because of the ability to stun lock the mobs.<BR><BR>And I do not think that SOE will end here. With the stun nerfs we are no longer as viable heroic tanks as we were before and, as Gaige said in the guardian thread started by non other then -Anoein-, <FONT color=#ffff00>we will probably see changes in how avoidance works</FONT>. Or at least deflection.<BR><BR>A wise man once told me:<BR> "Don't count your chickens before they are hatched."<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>yes, as mg responded in my post about avoidance vsa mitigation, this is a system that is looked at and talked about often by the devs.  apparantly it's such a big system and making any changes would create enough of a headache that <STRONG>it's been permanently back burnered</STRONG>....  yes, what is a daily toil for us, is a headache for SOE that they'd rather forget about.  </P> <P>And the community condones this behavior when we DONT ask about it, and when we don't complain about a small nerf.  </P> <P>Stop accepting mediocrity.  Demand attention.  Demand positive modifications.  Don't give in and settle for a lesser nerf, when a fix is really whats needed.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is truly saddening.  I tank pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well IMHO, but there is just some stuff that I can't do, several of the named in HoF for example.  If we're supposed to be avoidance tanks, but avoidance is broken, then we're pretty much gimped as tanks in comparison to our plate bretherin.  I don't expect to tank as well as a guard or zerker, but if we're supposed to be tanks, then give us some more mitigation or something.</P> <P>IMHO SOE really painted themselves into a corner w/ the whole class set up and now they are doing everything they can to get away from that, which I think is a good thing.  They initially tried a FFXI set up w/ the archtypes, classes, and sub-classes, but that makes balancing and keeping classes unique a real nightmare.  Now that they have done away w/ the archtypes and simplified the process, they can start proceeding towards true class balancing.  They just need to make a few changes to the current set up (popular or not, it will be necessary to mitigate constant shifts of a classes purpose, see us being tanks, then DPS, then ?).</P> <P> </P> <P>Tanks:</P> <P>Warrior/Crusaders</P> <P> </P> <P>Priests: </P> <P>All priests (however some may fit better into DPS or Utility).</P> <P> </P> <P>DPS: </P> <P>(Mage): Summoners/nukers</P> <P>(Scout): Rogues/swashies and brigs.</P> <P>(Tank): Brawlers</P> <P> </P> <P>Utility: Bards/Chanters </P>

[Tasye]

<div></div>I don't care about Monks or what Monks can do that we can't. I care about my CA's and my self-heal and my decent ability to take a beating and dish one out. The stun/mez/fear is a small bother too, but I shrug at the change because it isn't going to change the way I play my Bruiser.If I can do the same things after the patch that I could do prior to the patch, then I will be the quietest Bruiser.In contrast to post-Ranger nerf when I was probably the loudest.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>eq1 called.  it misses you.  go back.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This statement should automaticly pop up anytime someone tries to refer to anything in EQ2 as it was in EQ1.</P> <P> </P> <P>Made me lol irl.</P>

[Auberon_Feykin]

"Thank you for not killing the class.  Now balance avoidance vs mitigation, and upgrade our taunting ability, and we'll be in great shape" Yes.  Please balance Avoidance vs. Mitigation. I'm tired of getting OWNED in PvP by Bruisers as the DPS mitigation tank. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yes, I am a nasty troll.  But before anyone gets too [Removed for Content], my wife is a Bruiser, and when she still played a Guardian she was the best MT I've ever seen in any game.  I have 0 problem with Bruisers MTing groups and raids and being given the tools to do so.  However I also think that of that happens they should be brought DOWN to the level of other tanks in other respects.  PvP is foremost on my mind because I play on Darathar as a Qeynosian. Grats on your un-nerf.  My wife literally started dancing with joy when I told her. <div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV>Thanks for that info but tbh who gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about pvp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Half the un-thought about changes are put in place to make every pvp toon balance and its starting to [Removed for Content] me off .. if you want to change pvp THEN CHANGE PVP leave our game alone. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to release an everquest pvp then do so and call it</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everquest 2 : PVP where the nurfs are in effect everyday</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sry for the narky post but I just hate pvp</DIV>

[Auberon_Feykin]

Absolutely.  Fix PvP.  Exactly what I just said. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[TheRealMo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gobbwin wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Maelwys1 wrote: <div></div> <p>i'm disgusted with community's easy acceptance of mediocrity....</p> <p>Hey great!  they didn't kill our class!  we're still nerfed, and they haven't fixed our avoidance, or given us a mitigation aa, but thts okay,  cuz it could have been worse!</p> <p>LOL...  you people are so used to being abused by SOE's tactics that you just take it like a champ and smile.</p> <p>/shakeshead</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Totally agree.  While they are appearing not to nerf our CAs' damage, they are still reducing our AA crit hits.  <b>Mantis bolt will no longer proc off of auto attack.</b>  Stuns are being reduced (while this is widely agreed that it is necessary to one degree or another, it is still a nerf).  The effectiveness of our CC has been reduced (minor, but still a nerf).  Couple that with what Maelwys said and the fact that MONTHS after the release of KoS, we STILL do NOT have our own class hat (graphics are minor, but it is the principle of the thing, most everyone else got theirs with the expansion, we get squat.)  However, if it's as fugly as the Templar hat, I'd rather keep the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bowl personally. </p> <p>Yea, breathe a sigh of relief that it won't be as bad as feared, but keep in mind we are being nerfed... yet again.  Counting this one, how many LUs since 13 have we received nerfage?</p><hr></blockquote>When was the change to Mantis Bolt announced? And if true, when WILL it proc? Ranged attacks? CAs?</div>

[Dahlrek]

On test, Blazing Lunge is still missing its initial DoT tick, which is a minimum loss of 12.5% damage.  Hopefully that's just a bug.  Please /bug it if it makes it Live like that. <div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>The only thing I heard for Mantis Bolt was this:</P> <P><EM>- Brawler: Sta 5: Mantis Bolt: No longer triggers melee auto-attack.</EM></P> <P><BR>This is the fix to make it so you no longer automatically go into melee mode when you proc this... as folks doing ranged were getting rather upset about that.</P> <P> </P> <P>Maybe someone read that as "no longer triggers <STRONG>off</STRONG> melee auto-attack"? <EM>That's</EM> a very different thing, which would indicate that it's meant for ranged only.</P> <P>I'm guessing since it had not said that, and that there was a <STRONG>specific</STRONG> issue with the melee attack trigger on those procs.. then there won't be any problem with this ability with the coming LU.</P> <P> </P> <P>A lot of negative doomsaying comes from these kinds of misinterpretations. Some people like to assume the worst.</P><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>06-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 AM</span>

[Mentla]

Playing catchup here kids, been working hard on playing Queen toons on PvP a lot lately - what's actualy left in new LU that effects us?  Seems most everything has been reversed, no? <div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Our Crit % on the Int line for Achievements is being reduced... despite other Fighter classes still having as much or more crit %'s.</P> <P>I guess we are too "strong" to have that big an increase. Nevermind that zerkers are able to parse just as much or more on raids, equally buffed.</P> <P>Okay.. I promise to stop whining about that.</P> <P> </P> <P>Honestly, I think that's about it... other than the whole stun problem that's affecting everyone. We do lose a stun entirely, our backstab ability now has a daze instead (stops attacks, but not knockdown anymore, so not useable with callous stomp).</P> <P>Hmmm... armor is getting downgraded on newly made pieces, for t6 and lower? Not sure if there's much else... Eagle Spin had a slight tweak, but not heavy.. still forces target to face away from you, presenting their backside.</P> <P>I'm out... anyone else think of anything I'm missing?</P>

[Madmoon]

I am glad.  I was not on the boards threatening to cancel my account, but I did feel we were getting clobbered.  If it is true that Mez and Fear remain on separate timers, I have no issue with LU24.  I don't see how our 24 second mez was unbalancing, but I am willing to take the designers word on it.  Still, we need to see more differentiation between monks and bruisers, though I bet that every sub-class can say that.  Well, for however much I contributed to "the sky is falling," I am glad that we were heard!  A great game remains so :smileyhappy:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <P>This is as good a time as any to remind folks that not every change made on Test is pushed live. While the majority are, it is not uncommon for us to want something evaluated on Test before we decide whether it should be included in the live update.</P> <P>Though we usually make threads talking about major system changes (as with the control revamp), generally when adjusting individual spells we don't make a thread. In such cases, the changes are usually based on general balance.</P> <P>Since the LU24 control changes will have an impact on the way bruisers achieve their damage output, after playtesting we decided not to push the other changes live. In other words, the Test server was very useful in allowing us to evaluate the situation. That's why we're very glad to have it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Xebars]

<div><blockquote><div> <blockquote> <hr> MutantCrock1905 wrote: <div></div>So sad, you people don't even see SoE's actual intention. Their real intention was to take our minds off of the fact that our class is highly unbalanced with our other side ( monk ) by bluffing to nerf our dps CA that somewhat make our class what it is. So, they don't nerf our CA, in return you rejoice, but at the same time, what are we given? nothing.. Monks still have 100% haste.. no matter the ability that our CA do more over all damage, <strong><font color="#ffff00">a monk does higher DPS and they tank better.</font></strong> Wake up and smell the coffee, open your eyes and look at the underlying and not just what is placed in front of you.</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>You, sir, are playing with the wrooong bruisers..I have a 70th Monk, and I can say without a doubt that I do not do the DPS a Bruiser does, even with my 100% haste.  Has it happened?  Sure.  Commonly?  No way.And as for Monks tanking better....LOL, um gimme your Mit buff and I could keep up tanking with you.  Monks get personal haste in comparison...and you still out-dps us, in any stance.As it is Bruisers DPS AND TANK better than Monks.  Is it a HUGE difference, not really, but it's there nonetheless.I DO feel Bruisers are unbalanced atm, they do TOO much DPS while still being able to tank better than Monks.  I thought the nerf was well-warranted.  That being said, I've never ASKED for a bruiser nerf, and never will.  I like people to have fun..so they do more than my Monk does, oh well.  I could betray if it really bothered me that much.Saries/Nefalu Robber King/Bald Monk </div>

[Radigazt]

<P>I'm very glad to see the CA nerfs have been reverted, thanks SOE.  <BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <DIV>Thanks for that info but tbh who gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about pvp</DIV> <DIV>sry for the narky post but I just hate pvp</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Me, that's who cares about PvP.  If you don't care fore PvP, that's your choice, but IMHO you're missing out on by far the best part of EQ2.  Honestly, if anyone playing any class has problems with environment mobs ... you're just not playing your class very well.  All of the classes are strong in PvE, just get the right group and use teamwork ... makes most of the game trivial ... and boring to me.  </P> <P>But in PvP you're presented with real challenges, and to me, that's where the real risk and enjoyment are to be found.  </P> <P>In PvP Bruisers need their DPS, no doubt.  But IMHO, Mantis Star needs to be a single-target snare.  Otherwise Bruisers will always be the weak-sister to Scouts in PvP.  After all of the Stun changes (2x Immunity, 7 sec stuns becoming 1 sec stuns) a Bruiser (Brawlers in general really) have no real tools to keep someone in mele range, so when they decide to run ... they get away.  Monks get a tailor-made AA, the Strength Line, and Stamina is supposed to be PvP oriented.  It should at least have a Snare (in place of the Stamina debuff IMHO).  </P> <P>Also, bear in mind that the Bruiser "role" in PvP is single-target damage, so they should be the kings of single-target damage.  Berzerkers are the kings of AE damage, Guardians are the kings of tankability, Paladins are the kings of healing, SK's are the kings of ranged damage (Harm Touch ftw!) and Monks get Tsunami ... probably the single strongest defensive CA in the game.  Without single-target DPS, Bruisers are kinda poor choices for PvP.  Sure, at level 20-25 they're awesome, but after you level him up, he's a Scout with no utility, finishability, or escapability.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I have a Bruiser that is almost 70 on Nagafen and I PvP a lot, but I'm seriously considering rerolling him just to get the name, because I honestly can't see playing him over a Scout with the current situation.  </P>

[Mentla]

<blockquote><hr>Radigazt wrote:<div></div> <p>I'm very glad to see the CA nerfs have been reverted, thanks SOE.  </p> <blockquote> <hr> DarkMirrax wrote: <div></div> <div>Thanks for that info but tbh who gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about pvp</div> <div>sry for the narky post but I just hate pvp</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Me, that's who cares about PvP.  If you don't care fore PvP, that's your choice, but IMHO you're missing out on by far the best part of EQ2.  Honestly, if anyone playing any class has problems with environment mobs ... you're just not playing your class very well.  All of the classes are strong in PvE, just get the right group and use teamwork ... makes most of the game trivial ... and boring to me.  </p> <p>But in PvP you're presented with real challenges, and to me, that's where the real risk and enjoyment are to be found.  </p> <p>In PvP Bruisers need their DPS, no doubt.  But IMHO, Mantis Star needs to be a single-target snare.  Otherwise Bruisers will always be the weak-sister to Scouts in PvP.  After all of the Stun changes (2x Immunity, 7 sec stuns becoming 1 sec stuns) a Bruiser (Brawlers in general really) have no real tools to keep someone in mele range, so when they decide to run ... they get away.  Monks get a tailor-made AA, the Strength Line, and Stamina is supposed to be PvP oriented.  It should at least have a Snare (in place of the Stamina debuff IMHO).  </p> <p>Also, bear in mind that the Bruiser "role" in PvP is single-target damage, so they should be the kings of single-target damage.  Berzerkers are the kings of AE damage, Guardians are the kings of tankability, Paladins are the kings of healing, SK's are the kings of ranged damage (Harm Touch ftw!) and Monks get Tsunami ... probably the single strongest defensive CA in the game.  Without single-target DPS, Bruisers are kinda poor choices for PvP.  Sure, at level 20-25 they're awesome, but after you level him up, he's a Scout with no utility, finishability, or escapability.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I have a Bruiser that is almost 70 on Nagafen and I PvP a lot, but I'm seriously considering rerolling him just to get the name, because I honestly can't see playing him over a Scout with the current situation.  </p><hr></blockquote>Is there ANYTHING over a scout in PvP?  My resists are already high enough that a good percentage of mage attacks just bounce off and the same with my attacks.  Only time I nearly killed a scout 1 on 1 he just evacced, then I chased him down again and he pulled the plug (ok, that's not a scout only ability :p ). Nothing comes close to scouts in PvP except pet mages and bruisas.<div></div>