Yes guardians can easily out dps bruisers

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>Yes, Guardians can EASILY out dps a bruiser.    Easily.   </DIV>

[Gungo]

Hahah pass the pipe.

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>Dude, honestly bruisers are the lowest dps class of all fighters.  ... I mean sure if you set up a bruiser in an optimal DPS group we can put group buffs to work very well.... but really our dps is low low low... </DIV>

[J4k]

<DIV>I wouldnt go as far as saying we are the lowest but we arnt where we should be when it comes to being compared to a berserker and in some cases a guardian. I personally parse slightly higher then what alot of other bruisers say they parse at but i have been out dpsed by a guardian and several times out dpsed by a zerker. guardians and zerkers have a better dps lines of AA's but also have better Tanking lines of AA's then we do. Our tanking and dps stuff are kind of mixed up so we cant really focus on one thing as much as i think we should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So im kind of curious on an average what do you guys normally parse?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im normally 1k - 1.4k depending on buffs. 1k - 1.2k being the average group  1.2k - 1.4k Being a slightly better group but of course not all focused around just me. Im generally in the 1k - 1.2k department but every so often i get into the better group and pull higher dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now our guardian is generally pulling 800 - 1.2k. Occasionally higher but thats just the average. Now that may not always be more then me but its more then it should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker is normally pulling 1k - 2k depending on how many mobs etc. That to me is ALOT more then they should be pushing out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our DPS makes up for a majority of our tanking ability. Guardians and berserkers get much better taunts and ways of keeping aggro compared to us. So its very hard to understand how dps being a major role in our tanking ability is the same or Lower then that of guardians and berserkers. Its even more hard to understand how they can justify nerfing our dps when its the same and lower then 2 classes that clearly shouldnt be out dpsing us.</DIV><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 PM</span>

[Zigmun]

<P>It's refreshing to see that other Bruisers share my concerns about the class.</P>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>Dragorn your post was very well written, and I totally agree with you.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Now I'm not trying to push for a guardian / Berserker nerf.....  because that won't solve anything.   Its just that lately it has become increasingly difficult to justify bruisers as good members of a raid.  We have had many nerfs lately, and the only way to make people realize a bruiser was ok to have in a raid was to do the standard 448 STA WIS INT Achievement paths for maximum Damage, and then we'd need to have a good DPS group to be able to contribute.  Even then, we are still getting out DPS'd by Berzerkers, and sometimes guardians.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   If we are going to be a "Jack of all trades but master of none" then it's a joke, because we are more like a jack of 2 trades, and weak at both.  All I can say is that I hope in the expansion we get some new lvl 70 ancient spell, that makes us important in raids again.   Something like the conjurer's "Call of the hero" or a templars "Sanctuary".  </DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV>yes but we get lightsabers rememeber ;( plain sucks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hope they give us something soon cos ive actually run a bloody guardian up to 56 to compensate my lack of tanking ;(</DIV>

[psubull]

I agree with the statement made in the posting of this thread entirely<div></div>

[J4k]

<DIV>Oooo dont forget mars fist's new ability. When item is equiped you have a 10% chance to make everyone around you CRASH.. Duration 5minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously this is a great way of making s better tanks. We can just make everyone crash theres no way we can lose aggro then! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruiser utility for the l33tz0or</DIV>

[Dart]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Not going to argue either way... but I would love to see parse where a Guardian wasnt MT, and DPS'ing at 1.5k)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>I guess our only saving grace (for now atleast till SOE nerfs it) is our Group DPS buff. </FONT></DIV>

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>I was in a group with a guardian 2 nights ago, he was 3 levels below me and putting out over 1k dps a fight while I was barely hitting 300 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  The wizzy had 200dps (couldn't get a spell off, mobs died too fast, he was bawling). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I'd have to say its because the guardian claimed he had a master 1 offensive stance, had 100% haste and 50% dps and 2 fabled dw swords.  I'm a tank speced monk, so all my defense abilities are adept3+, while my CA are mostly adept1.  I ended up tanking (even with his DPS my master1 taunts and taunt stance held up) and I was tanking better than he was. So theres one instance of a guard (dps speced) and a monk (tank speced) grouping and switching the "conventional" roles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dynamicman out...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Last night I won a neck item, and the tank (a zerker 1 level higher than me) called me a (slur for a [Removed for Content] person) and said that I shouldn't have rolled for that item BECAUSE IT WAS A TANK ITEM.  I had 74% avoid and 45% mit, versus his 52% mit and 51% avoid, and if i had done a single CA i would have pulled aggro (he wasn't taunting). Worst of all! the other members of the group supported him!!!!! (idiot let the mage die way too many times)</DIV>

[digitalblasphemy]

Good to see people still have a sense of humor around here.  I'm not going to nibble at the bait though, I'm sure someone else will.  <div></div>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>digitalblasphemy wrote:Good to see people still have a sense of humor around here.  I'm not going to nibble at the bait though, I'm sure someone else will.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Crabbok isn't kidding... Warriors stamina AA gives them a 76% chance at double attacking if buckler equiped or the Int line, where it gives them  a 20% chance at double attacking, but doesn't include restrictions. Couple that with the STR 10% crit chance line and Agi 12% chance at procing their primary weapons effect on multiple targets and you've got a pretty solid DPS build. Just check the thread in the berserker forums titled "Best AA pvp build"<div></div>

[digitalblasphemy]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheSummoned wrote:<blockquote><hr>digitalblasphemy wrote:Good to see people still have a sense of humor around here.  I'm not going to nibble at the bait though, I'm sure someone else will.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Crabbok isn't kidding... Warriors stamina AA gives them a 76% chance at double attacking if buckler equiped <font color="#ffff00">or the Int line, where it gives them  a 20% chance at double attacking, but doesn't include restrictions</font>. Couple that with the STR 10% crit chance line and Agi 12% chance at procing their primary weapons effect on multiple targets and you've got a pretty solid DPS build. Just check the thread in the berserker forums titled "Best AA pvp build"<div></div><hr></blockquote>There is no double attack in the INT line.  The only thing that affects dps in the Warrior INT line in haste.  There's always tradeoffs in this game.  The buckler requirement is such a tradeoff.  No warrior can figure out why this line requires a buckler over and beyond it's simply a tradeoff for receiving a higher % to double attack.</div>

[J4k]

<DIV>It isnt a very effective trade off. They can still tank just as good but do double the dps.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR>Good to see people still have a sense of humor around here.  I'm not going to nibble at the bait though, I'm sure someone else will.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Crabbok isn't kidding... <BR><BR>Warriors stamina AA gives them a 76% chance at double attacking if buckler equiped or the Int line, where it gives them  a 20% chance at double attacking, but doesn't include restrictions. Couple that with the STR 10% crit chance line and Agi 12% chance at procing their primary weapons effect on multiple targets and you've got a pretty solid DPS build.<BR><BR>Just check the thread in the berserker forums titled "Best AA pvp build"<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You also forget that Double Attack will only proc of one proc, meaning it will only proc once, not multiple times, they fixed this a few patchs ago.</P> <P>Also the AGI line AoE wont proc of the target you have targeted, so single encounters it wont fire there fore wont proc another Double Attack, and even in group encounters, it will only proc once per AoE proc anyway, as i stated above.</P> <P>"Best AA <STRONG><U>pvp</U></STRONG> build"</P> <P>PvP being key word here, not PvE.</P>

[ArcticZero]

<P>I don't know about the out dpsing bit. But I can say the guard that I use to beat the hell out of just to sit on his dead body.. got a whole hell of a lot meaner when he went that set up. Not just a little bit I wasn't ready for it and he had me in the red before I got my heal off. He has never done that till now. </P> <P> </P> <P>Sadly this will prolly result in the nerfing that. Which is not what should happen. </P>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>digitalblasphemy wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>TheSummoned wrote:<blockquote><hr>digitalblasphemy wrote:Good to see people still have a sense of humor around here.  I'm not going to nibble at the bait though, I'm sure someone else will.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Crabbok isn't kidding... Warriors stamina AA gives them a 76% chance at double attacking if buckler equiped <font color="#ffff00">or the Int line, where it gives them  a 20% chance at double attacking, but doesn't include restrictions</font>. Couple that with the STR 10% crit chance line and Agi 12% chance at procing their primary weapons effect on multiple targets and you've got a pretty solid DPS build. Just check the thread in the berserker forums titled "Best AA pvp build"<div></div><hr></blockquote>There is no double attack in the INT line.  The only thing that affects dps in the Warrior INT line in haste.  There's always tradeoffs in this game.  The buckler requirement is such a tradeoff.  No warrior can figure out why this line requires a buckler over and beyond it's simply a tradeoff for receiving a higher % to double attack.</div><hr></blockquote>Was looking at the guardian AA thread and it said that Int line has a chance at double attacking, my bad. As for Double Attacking not procing other stuff, we, well monks more so then bruisers felt that much more than you guys did. Anyway, get a buckler and Vilcuidaes sword which has a mean dmg range last I checked (dmg range was prolly nerfed, dunno) and you've got yourself a nice DPS setup.<div></div>

[Lexan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>I wouldnt go as far as saying we are the lowest but we arnt where we should be when it comes to being compared to a berserker and in some cases a guardian. I personally parse slightly higher then what alot of other bruisers say they parse at but i have been out dpsed by a guardian and several times out dpsed by a zerker. guardians and zerkers have a better dps lines of AA's but also have better Tanking lines of AA's then we do. Our tanking and dps stuff are kind of mixed up so we cant really focus on one thing as much as i think we should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So im kind of curious on an average what do you guys normally parse?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im normally 1k - 1.4k depending on buffs. 1k - 1.2k being the average group  1.2k - 1.4k Being a slightly better group but of course not all focused around just me. Im generally in the 1k - 1.2k department but every so often i get into the better group and pull higher dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now our guardian is generally pulling 800 - 1.2k. Occasionally higher but thats just the average. Now that may not always be more then me but its more then it should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker is normally pulling 1k - 2k depending on how many mobs etc. That to me is ALOT more then they should be pushing out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our DPS makes up for a majority of our tanking ability. Guardians and berserkers get much better taunts and ways of keeping aggro compared to us. So its very hard to understand how dps being a major role in our tanking ability is the same or Lower then that of guardians and berserkers. Its even more hard to understand how they can justify nerfing our dps when its the same and lower then 2 classes that clearly shouldnt be out dpsing us.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by J4kik on <SPAN class=date_text>06-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:19 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This guy is insane the guardian and i have a very hard time breaking 600dps......  He's totally NUTZ <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Quicksilver74]

he's not nutz at all.  Warrior AA's are sick at the moment.  a guard can easily break 1K dps, and zerkers can easily break 2K on many fights.  if your dps is low, I can only assume it's because you are not in a dps group, or do not have buffs on you.  or your using a spoon as your weapon.

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>Even with DPS AA lines on a Guardian, he will not out DPS a Bruiser unbuffed.<BR><BR>This totally depends on the group setup you have in your raids.  If the Guardian has Impetus, he's hasted, got a Zerker in the group, etc.  Yeah he might out dps you (but only from his what~ 2 big ca's& the rest is all auto attack with a good weapon).<BR><BR>That is no more than what you could do to his DPS depending on the reversal.<BR><BR>My advice, get into a better group.  Its not about Nerfing Warrior DPS.  Why? Because the only way SOE can do that is by nerfing our DPS.<BR><BR>Fighter's auto attack will now do less damage, I seem to recall that line in update notes before.<BR>I gurantee you will see it again if you push hard enough.<BR><BR><BR>Want more DPS, complain until you get into a stacked group.  Voila!</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>The OP has no proof nor cna he back uup his claim which is why i didn't chime in. But anyone who actually knows both characters gaurds and bruisers. Knows a guard with equal buffs can not out dps an equally buffed bruiser. Prove it to us with some facts other then whines please. </P> <P>Yes the double atk aa is nice. They even nerfed the avoidance from certain overpowered shields w it in lu24 and they get crit aa's as well. Although even w our nerf we still do more crit %. And guards get a nice proc AA, but still even w all that using a high dr 1 hander they can not beat a tricked out bruiser going str line/crit or a wis/int/sta bruiser w 2 60+ dr wpns. In fact bruisiers have a higher base auto atk dam then guards. Its really not possible, nor does any parse i see show otherwise. Bezerker you may have an argument for so i do not disagree, but guards you obviously are smoking some strong stuff. </P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>The warrior crit % is just as much as ours, 22.4%. Ours is being nerfed... haven't heard a thing about theirs yet.</P> <P>My brother plays a zerker, he went straight for the crits, so I know exactly what it can be. That line also has other abilities that can guarantee a crit happening, so it's just sickening what they can pull off.</P> <P>The agi line's aoe proc works off double attack too, and it's not just more damage like our Wis line, it's autoattack and it's 24% chance... and it seems to proc (unlike double attack).</P> <P> </P> <P>All it takes for them is Str/Agi/Sta, 4/4/8 in each, and they've got their Crits, AoE, and Double Attack. And decent defense (although they'd have better defense if they went 4/4/8/8 in Sta). I can see guards coming close to our DPS if they are set up properly (with the same DPS buffs we have), and I can see zerkers surpassing our DPS with this set up.</P> <P>A zerker in offensive (so he has a chance to autoattack the encounter already) can more than octuple his autoattack with Double Attack, Haste, +DPS, Crits, and the Agi line's aoe attack. Sure he'll need outside help for some of the haste and dps.. but it's insane, and if we Bruisers are being nerfed for damage in your AA's, they need to take a step back and look at the Warrior line as well.</P> <P> </P>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>   Well guys, keep in mind that the intent of my original post was to stir up conversation about warriors and the nice DPS they are CAPABLE of.   Unbuffed, a bruiser will out dps a guardian most times.  Zerkers can go insane when Rampage/Open Wounds is available... yes they can do amazing dps once every 3 minutes.  If you find yourself in a situation where you are pulling very slowly, say 2.5 minutes inbetween pulls, it will seem as though the berzerker is the top dps almost every fight.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Also, for guardians ours is alsways tanking, and therefore can alot of reactive defensive procs on him, which increase his DPS quite a bit...  certainly not the normal case if he were in a dps group.  However warrior AA's are fantastic, and allow them to do very nice things.  I'm not calling for a warrior nerf by any means.... I'm happy for them actually.  I just wanted to point out that we are not a super powered Uber dps class that pulls 5K dps every fight like some people make us out to be.   Our dps is balanced at the moment.  </DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>I'm not calling for anyone to be nerfed either. My comparison to the warrior AA's is just to show that we brawlers (bruisers specifically too) are not the be-all end-all of Fighter DPS, so we shouldn't be targetted with the nerfs that we are getting.</P> <P>Basically the "if they can do it, why shouldn't we?" argument.</P>

[Kir]

<P>I am asking because I do not want to spout about that which I do not know.</P> <P> </P> <P>But my Ogre guardian, level 31 all STA/HP/Defense choices no AA.  Level 30 feysteel gear, with dual wield crush weapons at his level.  Takes at least 30seconds to a minute to take down a blue non arrow non heroic mob.</P> <P> </P> <P>My Dwarf Bruiser, level 30, all STR based choices no AA level 18 prinstine imbued gear with level 20 imbued mastercrafted blunt dual wields at his level.  Takes about 30 seconds to a minute to take down a blue single up arrow heroic.</P> <P>I guess my question is, does the guardian dps never come into its own until AA are in the picture?  Is it a level thing?  or this is a joke thread that just went horrible far over my head =(</P> <P>I have all but given up my guardian because of 3 reasons A) I do not get a lot of playtime and I solo 95% of my life.  B) I played a warrior and monk in EQlive for 5 years, after getting both into time enabled zones before GoD release I enjoyed the life of a monk more so I figured I would like the same here and C) I like Feign death because I like to run around places and explore and FD makes it nice when I just dont want to fight, but just look around. </P>

[J4k]

<DIV>Basically the warrior get some good dps AA's one of which lets them double attack. Now double attacking with any 1hander can provide some good dps especially if they are so lucky to have the 90 damage rating one.</DIV>

[Mentla]

<blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div>   Well guys, keep in mind that the intent of my original post was to stir up conversation about warriors and the nice DPS they are CAPABLE of.   Unbuffed, a bruiser will out dps a guardian most times.  Zerkers can go insane when Rampage/Open Wounds is available... yes they can do amazing dps once every 3 minutes.  If you find yourself in a situation where you are pulling very slowly, say 2.5 minutes inbetween pulls, it will seem as though the berzerker is the top dps almost every fight.  </div> <div> </div> <div>   Also, for guardians ours is alsways tanking, and therefore can alot of reactive defensive procs on him, which increase his DPS quite a bit...  certainly not the normal case if he were in a dps group.  However warrior AA's are fantastic, and allow them to do very nice things.  I'm not calling for a warrior nerf by any means.... I'm happy for them actually.  I just wanted to point out that we are not a super powered Uber dps class that pulls 5K dps every fight like some people make us out to be.   <b><font color="#ff0000">Our dps is balanced at the moment. </font></b> </div><hr></blockquote>And that's the problem, no?  Not suposed to be balanced - guardians uber tank, we uber dps (comparatively for fighter class) and zerkers in the middle . Levelling up my bruisa to go on raids, but starting to think I'm wasting my time.  My as well bight the bullet and lvl my Ranger or Conj or there wont BE any raids for me to go on <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Falwen]

<P>I couldn't agree with the topic of this thread more.</P> <P>I regularly group with a guardian and berserker in my guild, and we've pretty much leveled up together.</P> <P>In the earlier levels, they were usually about double my mitigation, but i had about 1/3 higher avoidance and my attack was quite a bit higher.</P> <P>As we got higher, they started to catch up to me in avoidance.  When I whined, they said, "yea, but look at your attack."  It was still quite a bit higher than theirs, so I felt better - I always out-dps'd them in parses.</P> <P>Lately though, now that we are all in the lvl 66-70 range, their avoidance is only about 5-10% lower than mine with still about double the mitigation.  They also have quite a bit higher resists than I do (as many of the non-raid higher-mit leather items that I can afford completely lack in resists).  And now they're only about 100-200 behind me in attack, if that.  They do out-dps me more and more often, WHILE TANKING - which in my opinion, should almost never happen.</P> <P>I don't know about my fellow bruisers, but I'm beginning to feel as though Sony is trying to phase us out.  I love my bruiser, but almost never get to tank as I group often with the zerker and guard with near my avoidance and double my mitigation.  (why would they ever want me to tank?)  I made up for it with great DPS (and they loved how I could keep them from getting hit with my stuns - also a thing of the past), but now that is falling behind them too.  I put too much money, time and energy into the bruiser to give her up, but as a class, what is her purpose?</P> <P>I'm not looking to see the guard and zerker nerfed, but come on Sony, throw us a bone... please!</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>The reason for Guardian DPS is solely based on AA's. That is the ONLY reason they have what they have now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is how Warriors get lots of DPS:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Strength 4,4,8</EM></DIV> <DIV>They get an Axe attack that does damage and gives them a temporary increase of 30% crit.</DIV> <DIV>They get 22.4% crit chance (<STRONG>exact</STRONG> same as what we <STRONG>used</STRONG> to have, until they nerfed <STRONG>us</STRONG>).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Agility 4,4,8</EM></DIV> <DIV>Another AoE attack if they use a spear. High damage, 1min recast.</DIV> <DIV>A 24% chance their autoattack hits 4 targets in front of them!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Stamina 4,4,8</EM></DIV> <DIV>An ability that lets them proc damage whenever they block, parry, riposte <STRONG>and</STRONG> whenever their target blocks, parries, ripostes, or deflects! Damage is in the range of ~350-500 at 4 points! Always on, just requires a buckler.</DIV> <DIV>Then they get a 76% chance to double attack!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that axe out of hall of seeing, 81.1 DR (or so? so I've heard?), they'll be doing ~142.7 DR, plus massive stats, flowing thought and a damage proc. That 24% chance that their autoattack hits 4 targets WILL proc on those 4 targets!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With 100% haste and 100% DPS (so if they are boosted), add in 24% chance to hit 4 targets, and 76% chance to double attack... it ends up being something like 13x the damage (as long as there is 4 targets around them). Procs are multiplied by the 24% chance to hit 4 targets and the 100% haste.</DIV> <DIV>Zerkers have open wounds on top of that... which, combined with the 24% 4 target proc, might have some major multipliers, which would account for their obscene fighter DPS on multi mob encounters. Remember, those all proc since they are just another autoattack and not handcuffed by the same Double Attack "no proc" issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best we can catch up is a straight up damage AoE proc that has 8 targets, but only 8% chance... which means no addition to procs either. Our double attack is 96% and we get +20% DPS, but we are stuck with storebought DRs (~57-ish at lvl 70, as opposed to those crazy 80 DR dropped weapons). We have nothing compared to Open Wounds...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And since this DPS all happens on autoattack, they don't even use power to do it... which means it's always available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The last LU they retuned Guardians to have less damage on their abilities... who says they aren't retuning folks because what can be done with 50 AAs.</DIV>

[R2Chie]

<blockquote><hr>TheSummoned wrote:<blockquote><hr>digitalblasphemy wrote:Good to see people still have a sense of humor around here.  I'm not going to nibble at the bait though, I'm sure someone else will.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Crabbok isn't kidding... Warriors stamina AA gives them a 76% chance at double attacking if buckler equiped or the Int line, where it gives them  a 20% chance at double attacking, but doesn't include restrictions. Couple that with the STR 10% crit chance line and Agi 12% chance at procing their primary weapons effect on multiple targets and you've got a pretty solid DPS build. Just check the thread in the berserker forums titled "Best AA pvp build"<div></div><hr></blockquote> str line if full points in the box gives a 22% chance to melee crit not 10, with MoA its 24% and i crit all the time with it. No idea about sta line cause i went with wis/str instead<div></div>

[J4k]

I havent seen the warrior aa tree but hear yall get some awsome AA's. Thats how it should be though unfortunatly not all classes were so lucky =*(

[chitos]

wow this is a freaking joke ahahah...isn't it? i hope it is..:smileyindifferent:

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> chitoson wrote:<BR> wow this is a freaking joke ahahah...isn't it? i hope it is..:smileyindifferent:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nope not at all , its all posted here mate

[Gungo]

<P>The post is misleading and mostly wrong. Yes guards have decent dps now. No they can not easily out dps bruisers. Rarely does our MT yes (he is DPS spec'd) parse on the top 8 on our raid parse. But he does get on it occasionally. Me and the monk in my guild are both regularly in the top 8 parse. Now i am not saying this post is entirely inaccurate but it is overly exaggerated. Guards can do good dps, but bruisers do more dps overall. In that same token a bruiser if built to tank can hit 80%+ avoid and 79% mitigation in a MT group setup with the best gear. What the bruiser lacks is a O crap/death prevention ability. Our self heal is nice but not really adequate. The proposal to change stone deaf to melee and spell absorbtion is probably the best idea to fix this w/o unbalancing bruiser tanking. </P> <P>In my opinion fighter DPS is balanced within the archtype and in comparison to scouts/mages. Tanking is slightly off for a few fighter classes namely monks and shadowknights. Monks could use a mitigation AA in the agi line instead of defense skill and shadowknights could use a mitigation tap to raise thier mtigation and help debuff the mob. </P>

[Mentla]

ok, looks like my job on raids with be pure dps then.  What's the best AA build for this?  If you could say which tree to fill first that would help too as not only have 4 AAs at mo. <div></div>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>a Guardian who is spec'd for DPS can out dps a bruiser pretty regularly.   Our guardian has been #1 on the parse quite often, sometimes breaking 1800 dps.  This has alot to do with double attack and buckler reversal, as well as all the defensive damage shield procs on him.  Also he's a pretty darn well equipped guardian.  does he always out dps me?   no.   but due to his buffs and reactive damage shields, and his AA's he is more than capable of out dpsing me on fights.  Granted we will be close.  typically he and I will both be at around 1100-1400 dps.  So this may not be true about ALL guardians, but it's true about My guild's Main Tank. </DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>I would love to see your guard parse 1800 dps with the recent changes to wizards spell to apply to the WIZARD and not the guard. i would love to see him regualarly outdps a bruiser W/O tanking in the same group setup. </P> <P>Damage shields are not your guards DPS. I don't care what your crappy unofficial and unsupported parser says. A good PARSER actually applies those damage shiedls to the appropriate class. And if you knew how to use one you can actually apply those procs to the class that cast them in the first place. A bruiser with those same damage shields WILL out DPS a guard tanking. A bruiser in the SAME group with the SAME buffs WILL out dps a guard. Your post is entirely misleading and exhaggerated.</P> <P> My point is your applying DPS unassociated with the guardians class and saying then guard out dps's bruisers is flat out wrong. Its the same debate as saying a bard or enchanter does not add DPS to a raid. where in fact the buffs and debuffs given by bards and to a degre eenchanters greatly effect the DPS of a group. its the main reason why brigands are one of the most saught after raid classes for DPS. WHY because thier mtigation debuff is huge and inceases the entire raids DPS by 50%. Brawlers are a self oreinted class most of our abilites our self oriented making us great soloers but poor group buffers. Our indivdual DPS is high but we offer nothing but a 24% dps buff to group. We dont increase the raid dps other then that. Which makes our DPS to the raid alot less in the overall picture. Looking at the parser and seeing big numbers fly up may make you feel special BUT parsers just like yoru post are completley misleading.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>ONCE AGAIN A GUARD ADDS LESS DPS TO A RAID THEN A BRUISER.</SPAN></P> <P>To prove my point SoE can reduce bruiser Direct DPS by half give bruisers a 100% group Double attack and 100% group haste buff. And bruisers would add more DPS to a raid then any other class.  While we wont have the biggest direct DPS numbers shown on an inaccuarate and misleading parser. We would increase the raids dps more then any other class in game.</P> <P>On the flip side parse a bruiser soloing vs guard soloing and you cna see how much less a guard will dps. Which means a bruiser adds does more DPS soloing. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV>Quick edit gungo lol</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>Yeah it was to much of a run on sentence. It completely irks me when people do that though. It was the same argument applied to the bruisers doing to much dps in the first place. The fact is a bruiser would not be on the top of parses w/o haste + DPS + procs from other classes. Our individually associated DPS given to the raid is actually quit small compared to scouts and casters. Scouts/casters have great buffs and debuffs that increase the raids overall dps more then a bruiser and his 24% master dps adds. While a bruiser may be on the top 5 of a parser occasionally. Our actual added direct dps is much lower.</P> <P>Crabboks main tank is the most BUFFED up class in his raid to claim his guard does more DPS then any class in his raid regularly is like i said before "misleading".  The only way for soe to remove people out of this mentality is to make all buffs associated to their toon. Such as "druid A's damage shiled hit mob B for 25 damage". And scout A hit mob for 25 damage + 25 damage from coercers B's DPS buff". </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Yeah it was to much of a run on sentence. It completely irks me when people do that though. It was the same argument applied to the bruisers doing to much dps in the first place. The fact is a bruiser would not be on the top of parses w/o haste + DPS + procs from other classes. Our individually associated DPS given to the raid is actually quit small compared to scouts and casters. Scouts/casters have great buffs and debuffs that increase the raids overall dps more then a bruiser and his 24% master dps adds. While a bruiser may be on the top 5 of a parser occasionally. Our actual added direct dps is much lower.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Indeed was in raid group 3 with 2 assassins 1 ranger (cos of our dps buff) and 2 healers lets no say how poor my parse was lol but needless to say average of 550 yes i know poor effort but hey not bad for a tank :smileyvery-happy: mind you the assasins didnt apply poison to me either cos they forgot pft . Though they were happy with an extra dps boost so not a wasted space</P> <P>The whole "we are dps issue" is what drives me mad mate ....</P>