We're going to be fine...

[RustyB]

<DIV>Every Live Update, Every Expansion, Every Adventure pack   we go through how thread after thread about how they're destroying our great class.  yet after everything is said and done and they release the patch  the "cry" threads stop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blazing Lunge nerf sucks and prolly wasn't neccessary as well as Savage Blows, but that doesn't destroy our dps abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for ae aggro   guys..  what's the problem?  I rarely have trouble holding ae aggro  unless the nuker isn't assisting  (and i know alot don't)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>here's what I do and it never fails..  go in pull mob(s)   start HO continue HO  AE taunt to finish it...  then about 15 secs later I break out my AE attack/strike (forget the name  but it's the one from the Int. line on our AA tree)  then our regular AE </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and it's as simple as that.   if you try my strat.  and still find you are sucking in the tanking department  then I don't know what to tell you... maybe tanking was never really your "thing".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for our mezz and fear being put on the same timer...  hmmm   it's a major kick in da nutz  espcially for those folks soloing 3ups, but it doesn't destroy our soloability (is that a word?  =D ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the one part of all the "nerfs" that really pees me off is the fact that they reduced the mezz duration and increased the recast time   pure BS!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we were never able to keep a mob locked with our mezz  it would break after the 24 or so secs  however long it is  and then the mob would attack for another 10 secs or however long it took to refresh then mezzed again.  no where near what a coercer or illusionist could do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so blah blah blah I type too much     to end this    stop crying guys  until the nerfs hit   then complain.</DIV>

[RustyB]

oh  just realized  that ae attack /stun  isn't from our Int tree it's the Wisdom tree  hehe  sorry for confusion  =)

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>Dude. Were done.  they are deleting all bruisers.    You have about 5 days left to play your bruiser before you log on and find it gone.    </DIV>

[RustyB]

<DIV>It's gonna be ok crabbok     you of all people should know this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw  luv to signature of our new class hat buddy.  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Zigmun]

<P>"Every Live Update, Every Expansion, Every Adventure pack   we go through how thread after thread about how they're destroying our great class.  yet after everything is said and done and they release the patch  the "cry" threads stop."</P> <P> </P> <P>If you can't see that the changes are going to affect how well bruisers can solo, then you either don't care about other Bruisers or your in deniel.</P> <P>I could understand the changes if we were the best solo class (conjurors and necros are better) or we were the highest dps class (we aren't by a long shot) or we ruled in pvp (we don't - scout classes do) </P> <P>I have also argued that other many classes that out dps us offer more utility to a raid. Again you can choose to ignore this, but the fact is there are and they do. So with each nerf that you silently sit on the sidelines and choose not to say anything, or worse yet - say it doesn't affect me - so I'm perfectly ok with it - the more you give the dev's an excuse to say - well you didn't say anything.... so we assumed you (the Bruiser community) were ok with it.</P> <P>I am a very lucky Bruiser - I belong to a raiding guild - and I am the only Bruiser in the guild - my guild leader feels that there is no reason to have another Bruiser in the guild. None.</P> <P>Healing - not Bruisers.</P> <P>Tanking - Guardians can do the job and most people would admit better. </P> <P>CC - not Bruisers</P> <P>DPS - well as stated other classes can out dps us and offer more raid utility.</P> <P>Off tanking - another Guardian can offtank just as easily as us.</P> <P>Fighters - SK's and Beserkers can and do get the job done as well as we do.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong I love my Bruiser, wouldn't play another class, and we are a very competent class - but overpowered? No. We are probably where we should be. We can solo and pvp well because honestly we are not the strongest at any one thing... but good at many, which imo is the strength of the class.</P> <P> </P>

[RustyB]

<DIV>oh I know that these changes will effect our soloability   but what type of soloin' are you talking about?   soloin' heroics??</DIV> <DIV>as for soloin' solo mobs  I don't believe we'll have any trouble, but if you mean soloin' heroics  dude we're not suppose to be soloin' heroics!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for having nothing to offer a raid  this may be true though I've parced on raids usually top 5 or 6  have hit 1st on a few occasions as well and I can decrease slashing, crushing, and piercing I believe.  isn't that useful?  oh  and can increase the auto attack damage for my group.  isn't that useful?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh and every 3 minutes I can withstand a round or two of AOE'S and be resistant to fear, root, pacify, stun for 30 seconds.  and of course cna heal myself to stay alive a little bit longer to pound some more [Removed for Content].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ArcticZero]

<P>Well one your raid parse will drop.. so that 5 or 6 will slide down.. to 8th or 9th.. </P> <P> </P> <P>also for the debuff nothing to say cause I think that one is good. </P> <P> </P> <P>increase dps huh... how about a coercer with a 74 percent dps mod to your 24.. with more and better group buffs... so thats moot. </P> <P> </P> <P>As for the Aoe's and immunity crap... you should look into things like death march that SK's get. </P> <P> </P> <P>You can be replaced on any level and no one would miss you. You will be medium dps with one debuff... you will make great mob fodder.. hey every raid needs someone to die for the "cause" right. </P>

[Gungo]

<P>If you read my assesment i never said we are going to be useless or broken. My claim is we are going to be unbalanced and a more difficult time being a tank. And yes the wis ae attack is great because ita fast cast aoe atk w a stun. Awesome for holding aoe agro. As well as the aoe proc atack. So does this mean in order to hold agro we need the wis line and a 2 hander. What about the bruisers who want to dual wield.</P> <P>My issues were clear. I am not arguing about loss of dps or stun locking. </P> <DIV> <P>Here are my suggestions to fix bruisers that will currently be unbalanced after the proposed changes on test. There are 3 issues i see hurting bruisers.</P> <P>1) Harder to tank heroic content due to stuns nerf.....I recommend a significant mitigation AA (aprox 600 miti at rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />instead of def aa.<BR><BR>2) complete uselessness of fear as a spell line.... i recommend they remove fear and give us a 3 hit stone skin on seperate timer. 1 min duration  3 min recast. (non toggleable, so that the recast starts in beginning)</P> <P>3) Loss of agro due to reduced DPS..additional loss of AoE agro..... I recommend making the bruiser hate proc into 50% proc chance, like the monk proc has.</P> <P>Those 3 changes will fix the 3 issues i see them causing in this LU w/o overpowering in solo, group or raid content. </P> <P>If they think we do to much dps already do you really think they will make our offensive stance better?</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 AM</span>

[RustyB]

<P>ArcticZeroEQ wrote:</P> <P>Well one your raid parse will drop.. so that 5 or 6 will slide down.. to 8th or 9th.. </P> <P> </P> <P>ok so how does this work?   SOE tweeks two of our skills and our dps gets cut in half?  come on now...</P> <P>are you even a bruiser?</P> <P> </P> <P>ArcticZeroEQ wrote:</P> <P>As for the Aoe's and immunity crap... you should look into things like death march that SK's get. </P> <P>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is your point?  </P>

[Colossaltitan]

Crabbok, its going to be okay.  We have Lyska to comfort us o_O.

[Bad]

<div><blockquote><hr>RustyBallz wrote:<div>as for ae aggro   guys..  what's the problem?  I rarely have trouble holding ae aggro  unless the nuker isn't assisting  (and i know alot don't)</div><hr></blockquote>I'd like to quickly address this statement.I play both a conjuror and a bruiser.  A conjuror has 3 aes on relatively short recast timers (45, 20, 12) that do a combined average of about 5k damage.  Without some kind of hate reduction or hate increase in the group, a bruiser is absolutely not going to be able to hold ae aggro against a conjuror that isn't holding back a lot.Compare this to a (competent) guardian where my conjuror only has to hold back a little bit (or get a little bit of aggro, depending on the difficulty of the mobs).  Guardians also have reinforcement which they can use to hold ae aggro solidly for named fights.I use guardians as an example only because I group with them frequently.  I would imagine something similar applies to berserkers and a palaldin that can't hold aggro isn't using amends (I don't know enough about shadowknights to comment).Don't get me wrong, I love the bruiser class.  But ae aggro is certainly not one of a bruiser's strengths.  If you haven't experienced problems with this, then either you don't group with people that do a lot of ae damage or they're holding back for you.</div>

[Gungo]

<P>well ae agro for fighters is simple all fighters have basically the same ae and single tautn hate amount, and rescue</P> <P>guards- have a defensive hate proc to any mobs hitting them (adds agro to all mobs in enocounter), reinforcement, and a deagro buff syphon,  as well as several protection skills that are gettign fixed such as sustain, and ae debuffs like plant.</P> <P>bezerkers have insane aoe dps- and a defensive hate proc buff, and a few proc buffs and hp regen that add hate - nuff said</P> <P>monks- have 2 aoe atks a 50% hate proc and another fire/based aoe atk.</P> <P>paladins- have amneds and consecrate and several ae spells</P> <P>sk- have several non encounter based ae spells</P> <P>bruiser- have a 25% hate proc and 2 ae atks - one of which recevied an additonal dam nerf.</P> <P>out of all the fighters bruiser have the least ae atks and least amount of hate procs or hate reducers. </P> <P>if 1 damage = 1 point of hate lets say a conj does 3 AOE SPELLS for ~ 5kish</P> <P>a bruiser does his aoe taunt 1kish, his ae 1 min normal ae atk ~200-700ish master 1, and his nerfed savaged blows ~180-1400 w 1.5 min recast. add in a 25% chance at 450dam/hate proc. </P> <P>The bruiser would need either  his ae atk to proc on ever mob in the aoe to hold agro his ae combat arts to be near max dam to hold agro. Unless of course the conjuror decides to hold back and only use 2 ae's. But why should he when he could get one of the other fighters to tank for him and not have to hold back as much. </P> <P>my suggestion although not perfect is to rasie the proc hate buff to 50% to give us a better chance to hold aoe agro. w our 2 ae atks. additonally if we cycle mobs fast enuff we would have a better chance to hold agro w more hate. Its not a free hate fix for agro. This will still require the bruiser to cycle mobs as fast as possible to hold agro.  And its no garaunteed to work.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:25 PM</span>

[digitalblasphemy]

If you want your hate proc upped to 50%, then it needs to be on being damaged and not on you hitting the mob.  Also the extra nuke/damage on the hate proc needs to be removed.  If there's one thing in this game I can't stand, that's the nuke/damage portion of your hate proc.  Every Bruiser I've ever run into uses this when they are not the MT.  Not for the hate, but for the nuke.  There's no way you can have a hate proc at 50%, that procs on attack that also has a nuke/damage portion to it.  That would be utter insanity.  You'd be peeling agro like crazy without even using any of your taunt spells.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>Um other then the fact of bruisers(who think they are scouts) using the dam proc as a form of dps.. . Do you know what your talkign about? You do realise monks alreayd have the same proc at 50%. I didn't just arbitraily say raise the hate proc for bruisers for no reason.</P> <DIV>Previously for monk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 swings, 50 for 420 hate = 21,000 hate<BR><BR>For a brusier:<BR><BR>100 swings, 25 for 540 hate = 13,500 hate                        (combined hate + damage)<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so if they changed the % for bruisers from 25% to 39%. It will even out at about 39% for monks vs bruisers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 swings for monk at 50% for 420 = 21,000</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 swings for bruiser at 39% for 540 = 21,060</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a bit more equal then 25% was for hate generation. Not to mention haste at 100% still gives monks more chances to proc.</DIV> <DIV>So my recommendation is a 40% proc rate on the hate proc.</DIV>

[psubull]

It's not that we stop complaining that our class got hit by a mack nerf truck because we agree with the changes.  We do so because we get tired of making the posts complaining about the nerfs.  <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Madmoon]

<P>Whoever said we needed to be the best at something?  We can do second best in SO many things.  I may not be the highest damage, but I DO damage.  I may not be the best primary fighter (though I think this is an overplayed card,) but I DO work as such.  I cannot control the monsters as well as an Enchanter, but I DO take creatures out of the fight when they need to be mesmerized... and so on and so on.  I don't WANT to be boxed into one role!  Know what the worst class is?  One which gets called in for one purpose and one purpose only.  Blech!</P> <P>As for the rest of the meat out there, do your work as a bruiser well and educate them.  All the rest will follow.</P> <P> </P> <P>Redmouser, Bruiser AB</P>

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Madmoon wrote:<BR> <P>Whoever said we needed to be the best at something?  We can do second best in SO many things.  I may not be the highest damage, but I DO damage.  I may not be the best primary fighter (though I think this is an overplayed card,) but I DO work as such.  I cannot control the monsters as well as an Enchanter, but I DO take creatures out of the fight when they need to be mesmerized... and so on and so on.  I don't WANT to be boxed into one role!  Know what the worst class is?  One which gets called in for one purpose and one purpose only.  Blech!</P> <P>As for the rest of the meat out there, do your work as a bruiser well and educate them.  All the rest will follow.</P> <P> </P> <P>Redmouser, Bruiser AB</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thats fine and good for XP groups, minus the mez part, you loose that in LU24.  But what about those of us who are lvl 70 and don't need to XP anymore?  Raids don't need us.  I wish we had some better utility to compensate. <BR>

[Dart]

<FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>They cant take way my sexyness......................</FONT>

[Gravve]

<DIV>Zig , your raid leader isnt thinking about what Bruisers can do.   I belong to a raiding guild as well ,  we have 3 bruisers in it .  Even though Knockdown Combination says it doesnt work on epics , trust me it does .  and with team work and at least 2 bruisers .... thats alot of free hits for everyone in the raid !</DIV> <DIV>First bruiser calls the KC ,  "ALMOST" every hit he / she lands durring that time knocks down / stuns the mob ,  his timer runs out ,  next bruiser goes .... same thing !  With 3 bruisers in raid and the right timing ,  thats almost 1.5 mins worth of knock downs / stuns ?  NOT to mention we give everyone in our group a 24% dps mod with rapid cry master 1 .  Name a scout or wizard ect who wouldnt want that or raid leader for faster kills ?  By the way as much as I dislike monks because they are always getting good stuff while we are always getting nerfed ,  putting a monk and bruiser together = unstopable combination,  weather its grouping or raiding .  They give us haste and we give them more dps .  Just my 2 cp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RustyB]

yes a monk and bruiser grouped together is pretty sick, but I don't think knockdown combo works on true epics  the proc does with the damage but the knockdown effect doesn't.