FYI: From test update notes for 5/25

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<DIV>From this thread:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=127" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=127</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Fighter changes:<BR></STRONG>- Bruiser: Savage Blows: Reduced damage.<BR>- Bruiser: Sucker Punch: Reduced damage.</DIV>

[Maelwy]

<DIV>umm, yeah.  Wonderful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yet another nerf to our aggro potential.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dev's, please, some love for us tanking bruisers is needed....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dropping our dps in wave of nerf after wave of nerf makes it that much harder for those of us who tank to keep aggro. Please increase our roughhousing proc to 50%, or add an additional hate proc to savage blows to compensate for its dps reduction</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>time to betray to a monk...</DIV>

[zabor]

I'm a monk but i still feel very sorry for you ... I dont see any reason why soe had to reduce the damage for these ca's??

[Kalem]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <DIV>time to betray to a monk...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Amen.

[Gungo]

<P>Haha seriously if bruiser dps was comaprable to monks and already situational. WHY ARE THEY SPECIFICALLY TARGETING BRUISERS. No problem with them lowering brawler DPS. </P> <P>But i want them to make our tanking better WHERE IS OUR MITIGATION AA. You give us all offensive AA's then when we do to much DPS. You nerf us down. BUT you gave us no DEFENSIVE options. Dont get me started on te utter uselessness of the defensive skill increaser. And the minimal gains from parry/deflection. They are good, but really not comparable. </P> <P>If they continue to nerf our DPS i want 2 things. 1 our hate proc made into 50% proc rate like monks. 2 Both brawlers to have +mitigation instead of the easily capped defnesive skill. Our aoe agro was alreayd lacking. Nerfing savage blows is a kick to an already dismal area. </P> <P>Nerfing stuns is fine, But stuns are what made us comaprable tanks in groups. And overpowered soloers. WE will need the mitgation AA to be comparable tanks at least in groups again. </P> <P>You balance CC all around then state well bruisers have 1 more spell then monks and monks lack a CC skill. Ok i have no problem with them giving monks fear. BUt then you place fear and mezz on same timer Effecitvly removing 1 spell from ever being used. WHAT OTHER CLASS HAS 2 SEPERATE SPELL LINES ON THE SAME TIMER. You effectivly removed 1 of our spells from use. When will a bruiser EVER use a 6 sec fear over a 10 sec mezz with the same recast. Please provide soem answers to these questions. Which you have obviosuly never thought through. REMOVE OUR FEAR COMPLETELY and give us a group fake death or tsunami type skill if you dotn want us having 2 CC skills. Heck i would be happy with a 3 hit stone skin proc instead of fear. Or a 100 hp damage shield to help hold multi mob agro that yu are now slowly screwing.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

Dps-wise... monks are already doing higher auto attacks in most of situations becuase of their 100% self haste. All brusiers got was some better dps CAs. Now soe is going to nerf our CAs... so can we get some better buff compareable to monks' haste? Can we have our offensive stance fixed? (And no, Im not asking for monk nerf!)

[Gungo]

<P>actually base auto atk is higher for bruiser and base avodiance is higher for monks. But yes w 100% haste monks were comparable in raids in equal settings.  HECK MOORGARD SAID Both classes were about the same DPS and situaltions were a monk would outshine a bruiser or a bruiser woudl outshine a monk. [Removed for Content] will happen now that we our 3 highest combat arts nerfed. IS there any thought goign on. Is there soem internal parses showing bruisers being higher then monks. Because oddly enough the developers who posted prior have said the opposite. That each class was doing similar DPS with situaltionally high DPS.</P> <P>They also said they are balaning spells by amoutn of spells and fail to address the spells on the same recast timer issue. </P> <P>I am not leaving my bruiser, because this won't break him. But if these changes are made in the name of balance. [Removed for Content] is the balance of the issues i am bringing up. An answer would suffice, but i don't expect one because issues like these which have a valid POINT are never addressed. Only the issues they can answer easily w/o rocking the boat are ever addressed. The problem is i Don't expect an answer from SOE, because they don't have one.</P>

[Aaliel Stonefists]

I'm starting to get incredibly [Removed for Content] off.  Atleast I am leveling a berserker to bring up a friend's coercer and fury.  They are even nerfing my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing defiler this patch.

[Quicksilver74]

<P>This is absolutely ridiculous.    SONY WHY THE [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] DO YOU ANNOUNCE ANOTHER BRUISER NERF EVERY [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING DAY?!?!?!</P> <P> </P> <P>   Just come out with the truth now... tell us that you hate us.   Tell us that your deleting bruisers all together.   Get it over with.   </P>

[Mota]

<DIV>This is getting really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing old. Nerf, Nerf, Nerf, Nerf, Nerf.</DIV> <DIV>It's gotten to where I dread even reading the update notes from Test cause I know there's just gonna be more [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing Nerfs.</DIV>

[kingfish]

<DIV>I'm really curious to see the reasoning behind all the current nerfs to the bruiser class. At first it was a "control" issue so all are stuns got nerfed, but the most rescent nerfs are clearly aimed at our damage output.</DIV> <DIV>A decrease in our melee crits, decrease to blazing lunge. And now the decrease to sucker punch and savage blows. Not to mention this will be the second nerf for savage blows, it's damage was reduced the day after the combat revamp. Whoever is behind this must be a bruiser, cause we are definately getting kicked while we are down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What could be left for them to get?</DIV> <DIV>   DOT?  check</DIV> <DIV>   AOE?  check</DIV> <DIV>   DPS?  check</DIV> <DIV>   Stuns? check</DIV> <DIV>   No upgrade to feign and heal?  check</DIV> <DIV>   mez and fear decreased and placed on same timer?  check</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look out eye gouge and devastation fist, they coming for you</DIV> <DIV>   </DIV>

[TheRealMo]

I smell a Feign Death nerf in the future. Maybe a 1 minute recast?Sadly, I'm only 1/2 kidding. <span>:smileysad:</span><blockquote><hr><div></div> <hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Zigmun]

<P>I've posted many times my thoughts on what is going on, so I won't go there again...</P> <P>But what really is starting to concern me is that SOE seems to have no interest in coming to our community and giving us "thier vision" of the Bruiser class - where they think we should be in relation to Monks and the other fighter classes and where they think we are in relation to Monks and other fighter classes.</P> <P>I think if we knew this, we all could make some sense out of what is going on.</P> <P>* Say what you want about WoW and Blizzard - but at least they have class advocates who respond to posts in forums. </P> <P>You may not have liked what they had to say, but at least you knew where the game dev's stood.</P>

[Blackforgeo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kingfish wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What could be left for them to get?</DIV> <DIV>   DOT?  check</DIV> <DIV>   AOE?  check</DIV> <DIV>   DPS?  check</DIV> <DIV>   Stuns? check</DIV> <DIV>   No upgrade to feign and heal?  check</DIV> <DIV>   mez and fear decreased and placed on same timer?  check</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look out eye gouge and devastation fist, they coming for you</DIV> <DIV>   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're absolutely right, Kingfish. Hopefully its just a temporary lapse of insanity on the devs part, much in the same way they hit the rangers before they came back to their senses. Unfortunately, I don't think were a big enough class to yell at the devs like the rangers did until they were brought back into a more reasonable line of damage.</P> <P>Been a bruiser since day 1, but all these changes are really starting to annoy me. No matter though, much in the same way SOE pushed me from SWG to EQ2, the same will happen when EQ2 pushes me to the next MMORPG.</P> <P>I just don't understand why SOE can't fine tune changes slowly, while still keeping the game fun. Instead they take a sledgehammer to everything and call it a good day...there never seems to be a middle ground, unfortunately. It starts to become more like: this is OUR vision of the game and the mechanics involved, if you don't like it, go somewhere else...we could care less about your opinion.</P> <P>I guess they sometimes lose sight of the fact that most of us already have real world jobs and don't need to play a game that starts to become a second job.</P>

[Maelwy]

<P>I can see how  soe's methodology must work....</P> <P>Parses and complaints show Bruisers doing inordinate amounts of damage - so they figure if they nerf our top two ca's, this should bring us back in line.</P> <P>Similar thing that happened when parses showed too much overall damage from procs - nerf off hand proccing</P> <P>However, what they aren't seeing is that various classes rely on ca's, and procs in a much more fundamental way than just as 'dps'</P> <P>off hand proccing kept our aggro up with roughhousing. - without it, we're proccing roughhousing 1/2 the time we were previously.</P> <P>nerfing damage on our top two dps causing ca's also will affect our aggro position.  We are one of the weakest tank classes when it comes to 'taunts' and rely heavily on our dps to maintain aggro.  Dropping Savage Blows aoe damage is a strong blow to our aoe damage, and thus our hate.  </P> <P>Avoidance vs yellow/orange mobs is already nerfed.  Our mitigation is the lowest in the game among the tanks.  Our wisdom is abysmal compared to monks, making us one of the weakest classes vs aoe magic damage in the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>Please soe...look at each classes nerf in the big picture - modify our dps, but replace it with a boost to our taunts - to allow those of us who DO tank regularly to continue doing our job.  Yank our crit damage aa completely!  but replace it with a mitigation aa or an aggro aa</P> <P>You've gone beyond hitting us with a nerf bat.  It's now a Fabled 2h Nerf Sword with a flaming proc, and guess what, it's painful.  Here's to hoping you'll slow down before killing us.  If not, heres to hoping we'll still be around for an eventual fix to bruisers, eta Nov 2007</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[TheSummoned]

<div></div>Hell, next thing you know, they'll be nerfing... Better not give them any ideas.This reminds me of Creature Handler in SWG with the NGE... I was very fond of my pets, and then 1 day I could just look at them in my datapad <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But you know what? They'll give this all back with the new AAs <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Danter]

<P>I don't get it.</P> <P>If we're not supposed to tank and not supposed to do good damage and have FD as our only useful utility, what the hell are we supposed to do on raids?  FD in the corner and go afk in case of a wipe?  And again, why are Bruisers being targeted when Bruisers and Monks do equal damage?</P> <P>Since we've been nerfed like 10 times in this patch, can you please fix our offensive stance so it does more than 3% of our total damage?</P> <P>-Kald, 70 Bruiser Permafrost</P>

[Dahlrek]

Savage Blows lost 7.5% Kidney Punch lost 10% <div></div>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dahlrek wrote:<BR>Savage Blows lost 7.5%<BR>Kidney Punch lost 10%<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would consider that significant....

[Arathy]

This is getting really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing old.. Everytime I see the update for LU24 it makes me want to play less and less.  Seriously.. I'm now considering betraying to monk or just giving up on the class altogther.  It's sad too since I really like being a bruiser.<div></div>

[Mantua1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fentan99 wrote:<BR>This is getting really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing old.. Everytime I see the update for LU24 it makes me want to play less and less.  Seriously.. I'm now considering betraying to monk or just giving up on the class altogther.  It's sad too since I really like being a bruiser.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well it used to be nice being a Bruiser. We can all say we were witness to the disaperance of the class. Wonder what we will get in place of it? Ohh yea - NOTHING

[MutantCrock1905]

You know what sony, let these nerfs go live and see if i don't quit. i am udderly distraught with the consecutive nerfs.. your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in devs are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s. WHY... just give us a REASON.. clearly you dont know [Removed for Content] ur doing. like i said. let our nerfs go live and i quit.

[Gobbwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>I'm a monk but i still feel very sorry for you ... I dont see any reason why soe had to reduce the damage for these ca's??<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Personally, If i were a monk, I'd be terrified.  I'd bet good money this is largely because of PVP and bruisers owning in PVP coupled with us being the flavor of the month.  Once we are nerfed to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], Monks will be the new FOTM and high DPS.  Sadly they too will soon be on the chop block.  This is why you should never cry for another class to be nerfed (general statement, not focused at a class) because once every class around you has been knocked down, you're next.  Rinse/repeat...

[Darthor]

<div></div>The PvP argument has been done to death.  There is an entire system they set up so they could adjust any damage/resist/etc of a skill without touching the PvE values.  If they thought bruisers were overpwered in only PvP then there would have been no need to adjust the PvE damage.Note: I'm not saying I don't sympathize, I DO!  I don't want anyone being nerfed, I just wish people would stop laying the blame on PvP.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Darthornn on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 AM</span>

[Elerri]

I wouldn't mind the nerfs so much if I was confident about that the devs indeed know what they are actually trying to archive with this. But right now I look at my skills, my AA and my equiptment and wonder what kind of masterplan there is that defines what I am supposed to do. Every player decideds him/herself what their role is.. Yea .. You give us the tools, you take them again. You decide for us.

[MutantCrock1905]

No, these nerfs to our class, and to every other class.. IS because of PvP.

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<P>Regardless of whether spell sets are different on PvP and Pve, I still think one affects the other, and here is why.</P> <P>Say one class is whipping up in duels, is the flavor of the month with a lot of players (and a lot of new players), and parsing good DPS. Do you really think that if they notice it on PvP and think "Maybe this class is overpowered" that they wont start looking at PvE as well? There is inevitable bleed between the 2 rulesets. It might be indirect, but in my opinion it is still there.</P> <P>And I would caution Monks too. If Bruisers really do get nerfed down too hard, a lot of people will betray over and new players will find Monks more appealing. They are likely to become the fighter flavor of the month, which is only gonna bring the spotlight onto them. I would advise Wizards to be watching for the same thing, as some high level Warlocks are likely to betray to Wizard if they can (now that they don't lose so much of the time and effort they have put into the toon). I predict lots of new Wizards and Monks if this patch goes in as it looks now, and I suspect it will bring all sorts of the wrong attention to those classes. This is not a criticism of those classes, understand, just my opinion that they might not like the collateral damage from the resulting state of their brother class.</P> <P>But then again, I am a cynic.</P> <P>:smileyvery-happy:</P>

[wayfaerer]

Yep, the nerds are blaming PvP again. You guys clearly have a learning disability since you've been told numerous times about how PvP has an entirely different set of stats for CAs. If they wanted to nerf it because of PvP, they would nerf the PvP stats on the ability. Additionally, if they were going to make nerfs in PvP they would definately not be aiming it at Bruisers. You may as well blame the alignment of certain stars for these nerfs, that would be just as valid as your current ridiculous excuse. <div></div>

[Bobby_Burning]

<P>yeah whatever...</P> <P>I don´t care if its for PvP or PvE or parses or some evil conspiracy among some developers to take out the brawler class.</P> <P>You´ll never be able to figure out what´s going on in their minds ´cause they won´t tell us why. </P> <P> </P> <P>It´s just so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing easier to just do it and have us fight over the reason.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nahlis]

<DIV>Just seconding (thirding, fourthing?) the request that a Dev come by here and explain what they're thinking here.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, it's fun having decent dps as a tank, It's one of the reasons I chose to play a Bruiser rather than a Guardian or S-K, etc. but if your gonna nerf it you need to compensate with increased taunting or hate proc abilities.  Believe it or not some of us Bruisers DO tank and actually LIKE tanking... guess that's why we made a Tank, eh?  With these changes, coupled with all the other Bruiser nerfs, you have done serious damage to our already weak aggro control abilities.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just think about will you please?  And then come here and explain it because I (and obviously many others) just plain don't get what your trying to do here.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Vanyari on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:26 PM</span>

[MutantCrock1905]

hey, if soe would toss us a bone, im sure we could get to the bottom of what the real reason(s) are. But hey, im just a nerd complaining about soe nerfing me, so i wont be able to solo yellow/white heroic named anymore.. oh well. ^.^

[Pouncer74]

<P>One of the big draws for MANY people to eq2 was there was NO pvp....balancing classes for pvp is a nightmare.  Its such a HUGE misallocation of vast resources trying to balance classes for pvp when the vast majority of the players do not even engage in any form of pvp.  </P> <P>For the select few who do enjoy pvp, I am happy that they have created this niche for you, but it is a real shame when the bulk of the players need to suffer because EQ2 has to take away from one to give to the other.</P>

[TheRealMo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gobbwin wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> zaboron wrote:I'm a monk but i still feel very sorry for you ... I dont see any reason why soe had to reduce the damage for these ca's?? <hr> </blockquote>Personally, If i were a monk, I'd be terrified.  I'd bet good money this is largely because of PVP and bruisers owning in PVP coupled with us being the flavor of the month.  Once we are nerfed to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], Monks will be the new FOTM and high DPS.  Sadly they too will soon be on the chop block.  This is why you should never cry for another class to be nerfed (general statement, not focused at a class) because once every class around you has been knocked down, you're next.  Rinse/repeat...<hr></blockquote>So true. At times it feels like the Sword of Damocles is hanging over your head, just waiting to drop. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span></div>

[Gungo]

<P>Leave the PVP stuff out of this argument. Its here is not going away. Right now we need to look at the overall picture on how these changes effect our class. The major issues i see being effected.</P> <P>Harder to tank heroic content due to stuns nerf...I recommend a significant mitigation AA (aprox 600 miti at rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<BR><BR>complete uselessness of fear as a spell line... i recommend they remove fear and give us a 3 hit stone skin on seperate timer. 1 min duration  3 min recast. (non toggleable, so that the recast starts in beginning)</P> <P>Loss of agro due to reduced DPS..additional loss of Aoe agro.... I recommend making the bruiser hate proc into 50% proc chance, like the monk proc has.</P> <P>Those 3 changes will fix the 3 issues i see them causing in this LU.</P> <P>The below link has my full review and feedback on all the changes done to bruisers.<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=56283" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=56283</A><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:26 AM</span>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Leave the PVP stuff out of this argument. Its here is not going away. Right now we need to look at the overall picture on how these changes effect our class. The major issues i see being effected.</P> <P>Harder to tank heroic content due to stuns nerf...I recommend a significant mitigation AA (aprox 600 miti at rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<BR><BR>complete uselessness of fear as a spell line... i recommend they remove fear and give us a 3 hit stone skin on seperate timer. 1 min duration  3 min recast. (non toggleable, so that the recast starts in beginning)</P> <P>Loss of agro due to reduced DPS..additional loss of Aoe agro.... I recommend making the bruiser hate proc into 50% proc chance, like the monk proc has.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Those 3 changes will fix the 3 issues i see them causing in this LU.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:24 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Not only will it fix the issues, but it will do so in a non gamebreaking way, still accomplishing their goal of dropping our dps, without imbalancing us as tanks, soloers or in raids as dps.<BR>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Leave the PVP stuff out of this argument. Its here is not going away. Right now we need to look at the overall picture on how these changes effect our class. The major issues i see being effected.</P> <P>Harder to tank heroic content due to stuns nerf...I recommend a significant mitigation AA (aprox 600 miti at rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<BR><BR>complete uselessness of fear as a spell line... i recommend they remove fear and give us a 3 hit stone skin on seperate timer. 1 min duration  3 min recast. (non toggleable, so that the recast starts in beginning)</P> <P>Loss of agro due to reduced DPS..additional loss of Aoe agro.... I recommend making the bruiser hate proc into 50% proc chance, like the monk proc has.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Those 3 changes will fix the 3 issues i see them causing in this LU.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:24 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Not only will it fix the issues, but it will do so in a non gamebreaking way, still accomplishing their goal of dropping our dps, without imbalancing us as tanks, soloers or in raids as dps.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not only will it fix the issues but those changes will have a larger impact then what it seems. For instance by removing the defense skill increaser in the agi line and replacing it with mitigation. Brawlers would now choose to either tank better by going the agi line or Dps better by goign another line. Currently few brawlers use the agi line of aa's as its not as effective.</P> <P>The stone skin proc as a 1 min duration will not reduce alot of damage in groups or solo. But in raids it gives brawlers new niche. We no longer need to joust aoe's for 1 min or more if timed correctly. As well as our 52 ancient spell to aborb an additonal aoe in 20 sec. We will provide constant DPS. Great for raids, w/o overpowering in heroic or solo content. also makes us effective pullers for raids. OR settign off traps.</P> <P>The 50% dam/hate proc wil be unuasable in raids so no need to worry about buff stacking and high dps in raid using this. But in groups it provides us with a mean sto hold agro again while our dps is nerfed. a higher proc chance also helps w our 2 aoe attacks to hold aoe agro. a higher proc chance also helps when we cycle through mulit targets for additonal hate increases. </P> <P>None of these changes are im balanced since other classes particualrly monks have similar or better abilites.</P> <P>warriors alreayd have a mitigation AA. Monks have tsunami which is comparable to 3 hit stone skin. Monks have a 50% hate proc. If they want to scale the 3 hit stone skin every 20 levels like our fear use too.then at lvl 30 let it be a 1 hit proc, lvl 50 a 2 hit proc, and lvl 70 a 3 hit proc, lvl 90 whenever we get there a 4 hit proc. These are my ideas and complaints. if you guys have any please provide feedback and less whines.</P>

[Gaige]

I sincerely doubt that PvP ever, let alone usually, effects PvE changes.

[Siberia2]

Who cares what pushed the Devs to make the changes? The changes were made, appearantly they were overpowered or some[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. The devs will never explain their actions, they're too cowardly. Their rationalizations will be picked to the idiotic bone by the upset players. With the CC changes they apparently don't know what they are doing. For the 9th time. I know the last thing anyone would care about is another I've quit message, but since these changes were announce I cancelled, broke every EQ2 CD, Deleted every one of my characters, and will never look back. Overkill? Yeah, I guess. But nothing compared to the weekly bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SoE manages to push out. <div></div>

[Radigazt]

My Bruiser is almost 70, but all these nerfs since the proc nerf have really made me feel useless.  I'm seriously considering deleting him and rerolling as something else.  Depressing really.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Dunno how SOE expects to keep it's player base when it goes nerfhappy every update.  Frankly, I no longer look forward to updates ... I fear them.  Because I know there's yet another update where Bruisers fall behind scouts in DPS and already cannot tank worth a hoot.  If I had known any of this were happening when the PvP servers opened ... I'd have never rolled a Bruiser.  I'm definitely not ever going to play a tank again, SOE is deadset that tanks shouldn't be DPS'ing, so why bother.  I'll go with the utility of a caster or scout.  So far SOE hasn't figured out how valuable that is, but I'm sure by the time I hit 65 they'll decide that those need nerfing too.  Blech ... really takes the fun out of EQ2 for me. 

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> I sincerely doubt that PvP ever, let alone usually, effects PvE changes.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT size=3>As always, I find myself in agreement with Gaige.<EM> :smileywink:</EM></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>As a part of the 'tiny minority' referred to earlier who play on the PvP servers, I <EM>do</EM> wish some of you would stop going on about how PvP has ruined everything. </FONT><FONT size=3>As Zizz pointed, out even if the Devs were changing classes because of which ones are overpowered in PvP, then then frankly their target would not be Bruiser anyway. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Allow me to explain:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3> Since around the time of the<EM> 'Ooh look what I can solo!'</EM> threads, when Bruisers were uber and owning everybody and everything in duels, more and more people rolled Bruisers. Then SoE nerfed Bruisers - but the new Bruisers didn't know this because they were all level 20 and under and/or were dumb. When PvP was introduced, even <EM>more</EM> people rolled Bruiser, thinking it would be a dead cert overpowered class for PvP  - they could be just like those lvl 60 guys from the <EM>'Ooh look what I can solo'</EM> era.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Wrong. Firstly, Bruiser skills and equipment (as with ALL classes) is different in PvP. Second, whilst low-level Bruising is easy enough, the higher level you get the more classes are able to counter your DPS output. So, our DPS is nullified, our avoidance isn't as good as Gaige's gang and our mitigation isn't as good as the plate boys. We don't have stealth or snare or root or much in the way of ranged damage. Add that to the constant stream of nerfs since LU13 and you definitely do NOT have an overpowered class. Sorry, FotMers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>And this doesn't even take into account our current woeful state of tanking - which Gungo goes into with such detail in other threads and is not necessary for me to repeat here.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I was going to sign off with something like <EM>'no wonder you're whining about PvP so much - it's just the sort of whining I'd expect from girly-men too delicate to actually play PvP and get in a proper fight'.</EM> But that would be wrong of me, so I won't.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:41 PM</span>

[TheSummoned]

The mezz being placed on the same timer as fear is a bit dubious, but other than that, it's definatly not because of PvP. It's more because people kept seeing bruisers high on parsers imo. <div></div>

[Ishya]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheSummoned wrote:The mezz being placed on the same timer as fear is a bit dubious, but other than that, it's definatly not because of PvP. It's more because people kept seeing bruisers high on parsers imo. <div></div><hr></blockquote>fear or mezz doesnt affect dps at all (besides lowering due to cast time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</div>

[digitalblasphemy]

I guess there is a god of irony afterall.  Brawlers have been posting "oh look at me and the epic mob I can solo" topics for awhile now.  Gee, you think that may have something to do with the tweakage your class is now experiencing?  Gratz on your new class.  Maybe practice what many of your fellow brawlers preached to us after LU13, and re-learn this new class.  <div></div>

[TheSummoned]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>digitalblasphemy wrote:I guess there is a god of irony afterall.  Brawlers have been posting "<i><b>oh look at me and the epic mob I can solo</b></i>" topics for awhile now.  Gee, you think that may have something to do with the tweakage your class is now experiencing?  Gratz on your new class.  Maybe practice what many of your fellow brawlers preached to us after LU13, and re-learn this new class.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>That would've been shadowknights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As far as I know, bruisers have been very quiet about what they can solo, including myself. Oh, and bruiser isn't being changed so much that it's a whole new class. What pisses most bruisers off though is putting the mezz and fear on the same recast timer, effectivly removing one of the spells from our hotbar (fear namely) and the lowering of bruiser specific combar arts even though monks do simular DPS to us.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TheSummoned on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:14 PM</span>

[Azzazal]

Well thanks again Sony, You RUINED my ranger now youre Ruining my bruiser?Id say roll on Vang' but you have youre sticky mitts into that to.Azzazal 60 ranger RetiredTarheru 69 *Bruiser <div></div>

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR>I guess there is a god of irony afterall.  Brawlers have been posting "oh look at me and the epic mob I can solo" topics for awhile now.  Gee, you think that may have something to do with the tweakage your class is now experiencing?  Gratz on your new class.  Maybe practice what many of your fellow brawlers preached to us after LU13, and re-learn this new class.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Any brawlers you are referring to who solo epics are most likely the rare few who have Full Fabled gear and all masters.  the Vast majority of brawlers do not run around soloing epic mobs.  why don't you go back to your own class forums.

[Agnar D'Shar]

<P>Just adding my voice to the growing clamour. Devs - please tell us why these constant nerfs.</P> <P>Please.</P>

[Dart]

<P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Woot SOE is on a roll, Bruisers/Mages - the red headed stepchild for the next six months.... That means come 11/30/2006 will be the Monks/Wizards/assassins nerf bat turn. Its cyclical, fun times!</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Time sinks WTMFW!</FONT></P> <P> </P>

[Dart]

<P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Hey I have a solid Idea..... SOE please nerf our group DPS buff, so that I will be benched every raid, and I can sit on ventrilo and listen in on the fun and excitement. This will make for lots of fun times!)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>/sarcasm off</FONT></P>

[digitalblasphemy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> digitalblasphemy wrote:I guess there is a god of irony afterall.  Brawlers have been posting "oh look at me and the epic mob I can solo" topics for awhile now.  Gee, you think that may have something to do with the tweakage your class is now experiencing?  Gratz on your new class.  Maybe practice what many of your fellow brawlers preached to us after LU13, and re-learn this new class.  <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Any brawlers you are referring to who solo epics are most likely the rare few who have Full Fabled gear and all masters.  the Vast majority of brawlers do not run around soloing epic mobs.  why don't you go back to your own class forums.<hr></blockquote>what an original thing to say considering people from your class troll our boards every day.  no matter, if you got something to say, then say it, but leave out the tired statements of go home to your own boards.</div>

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR>I guess there is a god of irony afterall.  Brawlers have been posting "oh look at me and the epic mob I can solo" topics for awhile now.  Gee, you think that may have something to do with the tweakage your class is now experiencing?  Gratz on your new class.  Maybe practice what many of your fellow brawlers preached to us after LU13, and re-learn this new class.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Any brawlers you are referring to who solo epics are most likely the rare few who have Full Fabled gear and all masters.  the Vast majority of brawlers do not run around soloing epic mobs.  why don't you go back to your own class forums.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>what an original thing to say considering people from your class troll our boards every day.  no matter, if you got something to say, then say it, but leave out the tired statements of go home to your own boards.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dude, I told you to go home to your own boards already.   Do it now or I'll ban you.

[StarryEyedElf]

<blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> digitalblasphemy wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Quicksilver74 wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> digitalblasphemy wrote:I guess there is a god of irony afterall.  Brawlers have been posting "oh look at me and the epic mob I can solo" topics for awhile now.  Gee, you think that may have something to do with the tweakage your class is now experiencing?  Gratz on your new class.  Maybe practice what many of your fellow brawlers preached to us after LU13, and re-learn this new class.  <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Any brawlers you are referring to who solo epics are most likely the rare few who have Full Fabled gear and all masters.  the Vast majority of brawlers do not run around soloing epic mobs.  why don't you go back to your own class forums. <hr> </blockquote>what an original thing to say considering people from your class troll our boards every day.  no matter, if you got something to say, then say it, but leave out the tired statements of go home to your own boards.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Dude, I told you to go home to your own boards already.   Do it now or I'll ban you.<hr></blockquote>And how do you plan on doing that?<div></div>

[Promythyus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR>I guess there is a god of irony afterall.  Brawlers have been posting "oh look at me and the epic mob I can solo" topics for awhile now.  Gee, you think that may have something to do with the tweakage your class is now experiencing?  Gratz on your new class.  Maybe practice what many of your fellow brawlers preached to us after LU13, and re-learn this new class.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Any brawlers you are referring to who solo epics are most likely the rare few who have Full Fabled gear and all masters.  the Vast majority of brawlers do not run around soloing epic mobs.  why don't you go back to your own class forums.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>what an original thing to say considering people from your class troll our boards every day.  no matter, if you got something to say, then say it, but leave out the tired statements of go home to your own boards.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dude, I told you to go home to your own boards already.   Do it now or I'll ban you.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't believe you have that ability, and these comments are not necessary. Please be civil folks.

[Promythyus]

Sheesh, ninja'd by a mod <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[StarryEyedElf]

<blockquote><hr>Promythyus wrote:<div></div>Sheesh, ninja'd by a mod <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Isard]

<P>LOL.</P> <P>Poor Promy.</P>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>ha ha ha!  I knew that comment was going to get some attention!  </DIV>

[Truxker]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>ha ha ha!  I knew that comment was going to get some attention!  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>More attention then you want <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Isard]

<P>Looks like the mods are back from the long weekend, refreshed and ready to work their wicked... err, I mean magic :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[wayfaerer]

Sigh. Can't you guys moderate in silence? This thread just took a turn for the worse with that blue drivel.<div></div>

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Truxker wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>ha ha ha!  I knew that comment was going to get some attention!  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>More attention then you want <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Trust me I want attention.... you guys work with the devs?  same building perhaps?   Tell them to fix our Claymore rewards or I'll ban them too!  NOtice that last guy hasn't been posting here anymore.... seems my ban worked!

[digitalblasphemy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Truxker wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Quicksilver74 wrote: <div>ha ha ha!  I knew that comment was going to get some attention!  </div> <hr> </blockquote>More attention then you want <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote>Trust me I want attention.... you guys work with the devs?  same building perhaps?   Tell them to fix our Claymore rewards or I'll ban them too!  NOtice that last guy hasn't been posting here anymore.... seems my ban worked!<hr></blockquote>Yep, your powers are quite amazing.  Alakazam and peanut butter!</div>

[BattleMonk]

With a couple peices of relic and about half my T7 masters, I don't plan to betray myself. I see this as a test of endurance. What will happen is all the brusiers who are not true to thier class will run off and betray from this, while the ones who love thier class no matter what will stay. Then, when brusiers are rare enough, we'll become the most powerful class in the game again with a new update, all the old brusiers will jump back from being monks, and they will remove the betrayl quests, and then there will forever be a chasm between the True Bruisers and the ones who ran away and were monks for awhile. Then again, I think too much and just would find that delisiously funny.