Since bruisers are losing an ability & monks are getting one...

[Xevra]

<DIV>Why don't you give us Monk invis now too? I'm sure this nerf has something to do with PVP.... Heh and if that's the case, Monks having invis and a mez type ability will sure make it [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] difficult to fight them.</DIV>

[Kainsei]

<div></div>I'm sure most monks (atleast me) won't mind if they're giving you wind walk, but I would rather have your mez instead of fear in the next LU.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Kainsei on <span class=date_text>05-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:39 AM</span>

[Xevra]

<DIV>I would gladly give up one or the other for invis.</DIV>

[Zigmun]

<DIV>Why oh why would you want an ability that you can buy a totem for?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A totem that lasts for 15 minutes, doesn't use any power and only costs 2-3 gold?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know I usually try to stay positive for the sake of our Bruiser community, but bro you really haven't thought this through.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The argument imo is not that we need anything, Bruisers are a very strong class - but - quite honestly do Monks need a mezz?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No imo they don't - they are one of the strongest solo and pvp classes and plus they have a lot more group and raid utility than Bruisers do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RustyB]

agree with zigmund 100%   why the heck would we want invis?   GIVE US THE HASTE!!  hehe

[Xevra]

<DIV>My bruiser is an alt, and is on the PVP server.... I'm not going to buy a 5 charge totem (that has a chance to drop in pvp) for an invis I'll be using to ambush people.... The charges would go down fast, and the 15 minutes would only be useful if you get really unlucky and there were only a few opposing players in the zone. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't thought it through much, though yoru reasoning behind it's usefulness compared to totems also wasn't thought through very much.</DIV>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zigmund9 wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The argument imo is not that we need anything, Bruisers are a very strong class - but - quite honestly do Monks need a mezz?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No imo they don't - they are one of the strongest solo and pvp classes and plus they have a lot more group and raid utility than Bruisers do.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heh, while at it, I would gladly trade haste to your mitigation. And except haste buff / encounter to your DPS , I don't imagine any "extra" utility that you guys don't have while haste caps in raids, dps not that much.</P> <P>Sorry, but bruisers got a lot more tanking tools than monks have while always been said "monks are defensive" yet not seeing any tools for that, except "being stunned for 30 seconds with 3 minutes reuse timer"</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 AM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heh, while at it, I would gladly trade haste to your mitigation. And except haste buff / encounter to your DPS , I don't imagine any "extra" utility that you guys don't have while haste caps in raids, dps not that much.</P> <P>Sorry, but bruisers got a lot more tanking tools than monks have while always been said "monks are defensive" yet not seeing any tools for that, except "being stunned for 30 seconds with 3 minutes reuse timer"</P> <P><BR> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Haste isnt that easy to cap for brusiers. We need 2 classes (chanter + troubador) to cap haste, and therefore, 99% of the time we wont get any other dps buff (unless you put 3 buff classes in 1 group.) While monks can just self buff to 100% haste, and group with 2 +dps classes (coercer + dirge / brusier.) You'll have both haste and dps capped - doing 4 times auto attack damage.<BR> <BR>About tanking tools... it's not very useful for everyone. A group only needs one tank, a raid only needs 2 or 3 tanks, and brawlers are never the best choice. Most of the brawlers are playing a dps role.<BR> <BR>And what are monks' extra utilities? Your heal helps A LOT in raid. It's almost as good as paladin's LoH, and the recast is only 3 mins. Your tsunami makes you the best puller. Your group FD can save the whole group from dying. Bruisers dont have any of these - all we can do is to do some damage and buff some dps.<BR>

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heh, while at it, I would gladly trade haste to your mitigation. And except haste buff / encounter to your DPS , I don't imagine any "extra" utility that you guys don't have while haste caps in raids, dps not that much.</P> <P>Sorry, but bruisers got a lot more tanking tools than monks have while always been said "monks are defensive" yet not seeing any tools for that, except "being stunned for 30 seconds with 3 minutes reuse timer"</P> <P><BR> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Haste isnt that easy to cap for brusiers. We need 2 classes (chanter + troubador) to cap haste, and therefore, 99% of the time we wont get any other dps buff (unless you put 3 buff classes in 1 group.) While monks can just self buff to 100% haste, and group with 2 +dps classes (coercer + dirge / brusier.) You'll have both haste and dps capped - doing 4 times auto attack damage.<BR> <BR>About tanking tools... it's not very useful for everyone. A group only needs one tank, a raid only needs 2 or 3 tanks, and brawlers are never the best choice. Most of the brawlers are playing a dps role.<BR> <BR>And what are monks' extra utilities? Your heal helps A LOT in raid. It's almost as good as paladin's LoH, and the recast is only 3 mins. Your tsunami makes you the best puller. Your group FD can save the whole group from dying. <STRONG>Bruisers dont have any of these - all we can do is to do some damage and buff some dps.</STRONG><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well I think we can do a little more than that.  We also have a good melee debuff, and if you gear out your AA's for utility you could get Altruism, which is a fantastic ability to bring to a raid.... and you could also get 8 points in Mantis Star, which is yet another fantastic ability... BTW I parsed this on raids, and it effectively makes the mob have 88% of his HP if you keep it up the whole time....  so imagine knocking a mob down to 88% on pull.....  very nice indeed.  <BR>

[selch]

<DIV><BR>Yeah, about raiding, you may be right, but as in group (and myself as duo player) sadly haste does not bring more benefits than any mitigation tools, nor 3 minutes heal other compared to 1.5 minutes of same amount self since I'm the one who needs healing, nor haste against a "damage shielded"  mob damaging yourself "faster"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too bad, there is no Qeynos bruisers or I would definitely be one (roleplay reasons) since I'm and should be tank at my role in duo more than DPS.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:41 AM</span>

[Zigmun]

<P>Selch you are so wrong on so many levels.</P> <P>It's obvious you don't understand game mechanics.</P> <P> </P>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zigmund9 wrote:<BR> <P>Selch you are so wrong on so many levels.</P> <P>It's obvious you don't understand game mechanics.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then please enlighten me with your wisdom if you have anything else to say more than being a [Removed for Content].</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<DIV>From this thread:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=127" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=127</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Brawler: Instill Doubt: Reduced fear duration, reduced power cost. Increased Resistibility. Lowered overall break chances.<BR>- Bruiser: Intimidate: Increased Reuse timer to 60 seconds. Increased Resistibility. Reduced Mesmerize duration and power cost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileysad:</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>dang i hate that no copy bug. here is a clip of the text moorgard placed about bruiser vs monk DPS NOtice the highlights in yellow.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ ______________________________</P> <P>Monks can achieve very high haste with their own abilities; they can reach 100% on their own if they are willing (though not without a cost), and can hit that threshold pretty easily in the right group. <FONT color=#ffff33>Haste means more autoattack rounds in a given time frame, providing more chances for a weapon to proc and more chances for autoattacks to crit. (added by gungo- also more double attacks which in turn equal more crits =p)<BR></FONT> <BR>Bruisers arrive at their damage numbers through a combination of procs, their DPS buff, and higher base damage. For example, bruiser autoattack damage is slightly higher than that of a monk, which means that any associated crits will generally also be higher. Therefore double attacks will also hit harder, as opposed to the monk which gets more of them. The bruiser DPS buff gives a slightly higher percentage than the comparable monk buff gives of haste. Bruisers also get an additional damage proc in their Roughhousing line that monks don't.<BR> <BR><FONT color=#ffff33>In solo situations, obviously the haste of the monk comes in very handy.</FONT> The potential downside of all that self haste can be seen in groups, where the haste-capped monk might not benefit from of the haste buffs coming from other members. The bruiser can take advantage of those haste buffs while also having lots of headroom to get additional DPS buffs. But in any case, I don't think either class can make a valid claim to feel underpowered when loaded with a wide range of group buffs.<BR> <BR>The monk offensive stance gives haste while the bruiser stance gives a proc. The effect on overall damage output calculates to be very close together, even though some bruisers would rather the stance gave a DPS boost instead. The idea that the proc on the bruiser offensive line is somehow worthless is a misconception. Bruiser proc damage was balanced around the way it will be after the next live update, not the broken proc-on-each-hit way it was before or procing on double attacks as it is now. (To be clear, double attack achievements for ALL classes were balanced like this, without the intention of additional procs.)</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Now to be 100% honest in order for a bruiser to acheive 100% haste he needs a 23% haste item, Illusinist 46% haste buff (single concentration slot), troubador ~24% haste buff (another concentrartion slot used only if aria's is not used and if resists not needed) AND a monk for constant haste. or an inquisitor/zerker/fury cna be used to replace the monk or troub but its a haste proc and not constant. Not really the easiest to cap haste now is it. This is only to cap haste. we also need at least 2 buffers for DPS such as a coercer, dirge, zerker, inquisitor. So its very hard for a bruiser to cap both dps and haste in a group. Which is a good thing. Leaving all that aside as moorgard said there are situations where monks dps will shine over bruiser dps and bruiser will shine over monks. He also said in solo situations its very obvious how well haste helps out.  - This is a direct response to your haste provides no benefit for your douing BS. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Btw selch the mitigation buff has been proven time and again on these boards to be useless soloing. It only shines vs hard hitting (read yellow or orange named) heroics. So yes its pretty useful in groups. The heal generally is more useful soloing then in group. As it is our agro control is less then a monk, so  i can loss agro at times. Which means w/o a way to heal a healer or dps who pulled agro they are usually dead where as a monk can heal a healer who is unable to focus enough to heal themselves. </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I will make a deal with you have SOE turn our taunt proc into 50% proc chance and ill be more then happy to recommend them reducing your heal to 1.5 minutes. Have them remove fear and mezz from the same timer and i would not have a complaint about them giving you fear or even instead the mezz. As it is currently the changes unfairly targets bruisers over monks.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:10 PM</span>

[mr23sgte]

<P>Moorguard:</P> <P>In terms of sheer numbers, Instill Doubt was an extra spell given to bruisers without any corresponding spell being given to monks. This change evens things out a bit more.</P> <P>Nuff Said</P>

[Gungo]

<P>the problem is mr23sgte 2 of our spells are on the same timer so effectivly 1 is unuseable. In fact 1 is never better to use then the other. If our arts our now equal by amount of spells. Where is the equvilant to monks arts being on the same timer. why dont they put your tsunami and spell ward on the same timer. Putting 2 defensive skilsl on 1 timer is the equivilant to placing 2 crowd controls on the same timer. As in it doesnt make any sense. Don't get me wrong i have no problem with them giving monks our fear or even our mezz. I have a problem with them placing 2 spells on the same timer effectively removing 1 spell from use then them claiming all is equal because we have the same number of spells. But not acknowledging the fact bruiser are the only class with 2 completely different spell lines on the same timer. </P> <P>Nuff said. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 PM</span>

[Gobbwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mr23sgte wrote:<BR> <P>Moorguard:</P> <P>In terms of sheer numbers, Instill Doubt was an extra spell given to bruisers without any corresponding spell being given to monks. This change evens things out a bit more.</P> <P>Nuff Said</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's interesting.  Now a question from the curious, what are our equivelant spells for the following monk spells:</P> <P>Group FD</P> <P>Tsunami  (Stone Deaf maybe?)</P> <P>Wind Walk</P> <P> </P> <P>I realize they may not be as equal or obvious as heal VS heal, but I'm just curious.</P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mr23sgte wrote:<BR> <P>Moorguard:</P> <P>In terms of sheer numbers, Instill Doubt was an extra spell given to bruisers without any corresponding spell being given to monks. This change evens things out a bit more.</P> <P>Nuff Said</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Before the combat change... brusiers' group taunt also fear a target (it's a 15m range AE taunt + single target taunt + slow target attack speed by 49%.) It was not on the same timer with our mez. In Lu13, soe took away the fear and slow from our group taunt, and seperated it to a different CA line. It's much weaker than it was (became melee range, recast doubled, and the slow was removed.)  It was never an extra spell.<BR>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Pre-LU 13 had a LOT of differences... there was a lot of discrepancies between the classes.</P> <P>Also, a fear (crowd control) and a group taunt (aggro control) were two completely different effects that more often than not worked against each other, and had no place being on the same ability line. The best thing they did was seperate those abilities.</P> <P>Prior to the combat update, we had stifle on an ability.. hence the name of it "throat kick". Prior to the update, we didn't have whole spell lines, or they worked in a completely different way.</P> <P>You really can't compare pre- and post- combat update in any effective manner.</P> <P> </P> <P>However, if the case is that we were at Bruiser = Monk + 1... then Bruiser - 1 and Monk + 1 just makes it so Monks now have an extra ability over Bruisers... it's skewed the other way now.</P> <P>Hey... I'm all for fairness. But if they want to get nitpicky and technical about it, so can I. Sharing the timers makes us in the same disadvantage that Monks were before. Sure we get a choice (not a big one, even I can't swallow my own devil's advocate on the fear or mez thread), but the fact of the matter is, Monks now get one more ability they can use overall than we do... the same "problem" the devs felt needed correcting when it was the other way around.</P> <P>Knowing how they work though, I'll expect to either see no change to this current state of affairs, or watch them take away mez and give us something more useless that we don't want. I'd be happy with mez on it's own timer, even gimped.. i mean, whatever... but I'm not getting my hopes up.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'll take what I can get and still beat the snot out of everything in my way.</P>

[Gravve]

<P><FONT size=5>  </FONT></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Gravve on <span class=date_text>05-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:28 AM</span>

[MutantCrock1905]

<P>I'm not one to complain, because I know there will be other strats i can figure out to counteract our nerf, i can deal with 2 spells on the same timer, i hardly use fear and mez anyhow ( not condoning the severe nerf, which it is ). Anyway, one thing i just dont agree with is how monks can get so much haste, and bruisers at best with a level 70 master 1 rabid cry can only obtain +24% to their dps. Now i think that is what bruisers really need to be complaining about. Engulf? I've been capped on haste and at best it procs 10 times during a lvl 74 x4 raid mob with a gazillion hps.</P> <P> </P> <P>Purrfect Technique <Sovereign></P> <P>Crushbone</P>

[mr23sgte]

<P>I agree with your timer problem with Fear and Mez, but that doesn't change my quote from Moorguard. Essentially Monks were shorted a spell and Bruisers are being shafted in LU#24 with the same timer thing.</P> <P>Nuff said</P> <P>Gobbwin - I think it's   Wind walk = Intimidate </P> <P>                                   Tsunami = Sonic Fists </P> <P>                                    Group FD = Close Mind</P> <P>                                    Outward Calm= Stone Death</P> <P>I'm not saying the skills are equal ......</P> <P>I am actually thinking of betraying to Bruiser - so don't think as me of being a @ss about my post.</P> <P> <P> <P>Dredful 70 Fury  - Unrest <P>Hereo 69 Monk -   Unrest</P><p>Message Edited by mr23sgte on <span class=date_text>05-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 AM</span>