Str AA line any better?

[WinterAnar]

<DIV>I see lots of talking about AA lines but nothing about the Str one.  So does it still bite?  Or now that there are more items with haste on them is it better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It it worth not having the stats from the weapon(s)?  My guild does light raiding so I have the chance to pick up raid gear but we're not heavy raiding if this makes any difference in the decision.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Opins anyone?</DIV>

[Owa]

<DIV><FONT size=3>Well I'm a couple of points away fro  maxing out the STR line and it's been good for me for two reasons - firstly the DPS is great, secondly being on a PvP server everything is ridiculously expensive so not having to buy weapons has been very useful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>However, I have a question about the STR line:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>What is the best AA line to take once STR is maxed? Are there any other AAs that don't require weapons - that is, are there any cool CAs from other AA lines etc that I can use barefisted? Now I'm 62 there's some nice weapons starting to drop..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>If there's no other AA line that mixes well with STR I think I'll /respec.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:51 PM</span>

[Mantua1]

<P>I have gone the Str line and find it works very well for me on multiple levels. My preferance since my early 20's had been to use wepons for the stat bonus and getting used to no weapon has taken sometime. I am not sure i am going to keep this line if things get changed down the road. I might respec it after changes but for now its good. I use it on raids once the mobs get down a bit, like more then half way. Even then I make sure the MT knows i am about to let fly the fists of fury.</P>

[J4k]

I used up my free respect to try out the STR line and found it was pretty sucky compared to my original AA set up. The lost of stats and procs was not at all made up for with the 20% dps increase and double attack with bare hands. The Only good side of this line would be the fact that your double attack ranged also probably not even supposed to happen but it does. of course if you have mantis bolt as an AA everytime that procs it sticks you into melee combat anyways loseing out on alot of DPS in ranged to. Basically in my opinion this line is junky atm so id probably suggest going a different rout.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>When you hit lvl 70, your bare fists are considered Tier 8 weapons. I cannot find weapons that do more damage than my barefists at Strength line maxed (4,4,<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, short of getting into the ridiculously powerful stuff (fabled stuff, either dropped or like marr's fist from claymore line). I do more damage with my bare fists than using staff of flapping wing, one of the highest damaging weapons we can use.</P> <P>Right now I'm focusing on DPS (with gear to switch out for tanking or resists in the situations where I am tanking).</P> <P>Considering stats max out now, and in tier 7 you can push stats pretty high, self buffed.. I've not found myself hurting at all for lack of weapon stats. Even procs only add a little more damage (run a parse, it's very little added damage per second), so the only things I'd miss are the +skill and "special" procs (like knockdown/stun/stifle).</P> <P> </P> <P>Now, at lower levels.. not sure how well they parse. I only picked it up when I respec'd at 70, so that's my only experience...</P> <P>I can actually go back in my parses and see the difference... (DPS numbers are the autoattack alone, I was using CAs as well, and autoattack ranged from 33-50% of my DPS).</P> <P>When I used <A href="http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/4510/hammerofformation6yl.jpg" target=_blank>Hammer of Formation</A> and <A href="http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7418/ravasectianshredder5zg.jpg" target=_blank>Ravasection Shredder</A>, and 24% +DPS, I was getting around 170 combined DPS on average (sometimes lower, so I assume those were moments where I wasn't in range for part of the fight, etc... rarely reached over 180, mostly in the 160 or 170 range). The hammer proc rarely happened, i'd see it maybe once in a minute long fight for 340 damage... no appreciable increase in DPS from it. </P> <P>When I used <A href="http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/5910/sgreatstaff4vm.jpg" target=_blank>Grizzfazzle's Greatstaff</A>, and had 80% haste and 65% +DPS (enchanter and zerker in the group), I was getting around 260 DPS on average (once again, on autoattack alone). The proc actually went off a few times, and added an average of 15 DPS as well, totalling about 275 DPS using that thing. That haste and +DPS really helps boost the damage nicely...</P> <P>These were using 4,4,4 in Wis line, and 4,4,4 in Int line. Crane Twirl proc'd a few times, but at 4% chance and many encounters 2 or 1 creatures, it added less than 2% overall of my damage (when it showed up at all). Mostly I had the line going for my brief tanking periods, to keep group aggro.</P> <P>Now looking at my parses for unarmed, with 44% +DPS, AA's being 4,4,8 in Str and 4,4,2 in Int.... I am getting around 265 DPS. That's nearly the same as the grizz staff, <EM>without</EM> having the extra 80% haste and 20% +DPS! This is on groups/raids (total DPS mode) as well as soloing.</P> <P> </P> <P>Our guild tank is a Pally right now, and he usually puts his Amends on me, so I can go all out. I would like to see what I can do with unarmed along with 80% haste and +DPS and no fear of pulling aggro.</P> <P>I'm thinking of finishing off Crits in Int line, and then getting the Stamina Proc maxed. And unless I get some really wicked weapons, I doubt I'll change that set up. Now I just need to find a pocket enchanter! :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Kram337]

So with Grizzfazzle's, 80% haste, 65% dps, and Wis AA's you were getting 260 dps.And now unarmed, with 80% less haste and 20% less DPS (mod) you get 265 dps, but now you also have totally different AA's. It's pretty hard to tell whether or not the added DPS was actually from switching to unarmed or if it was from a change in your AA's. Since you said you're into the Int line now too, shouldn't that boost your dps quite a bit on it's own?I think to finilize your report, you should equip a few weapons and re-parse with the new int AA's you have going. In fact if we really wanted to know the exact amount of dps you gain from going unarmed you should see if you can't  parse and test a little with the same group buffs and so on. It'd be great to really get these numbers hammered out so we know if Str line is truely worthwhile.Great post btw, thanks for taking the time to not only review your parse but to also analyze and report back to all us info-hungry bruisers =)~Mal(P.s. The point of the game remains to be "have fun". But having this info is "having fun" to a nerd like me <span>:smileytongue:</span> )<div></div>

[SilentKnt]

Okay, at lvl 70 fists are T8 weapons, so is it only worth going barefisted at lvl 70, or does it really matter?  I have a lvl 62 bruiser and still learning the ropes.  Would it be better for me to hang up my 2 quarterstaffs and go barefisted is pretty much what Im asking.

[Kalem]

<P>I haven't tried the str line at 70, but I did give it a try at 64.  I can tell you I was parsing less damage fightinng the same mobs than when I had my original spec.  Didn't take me long to respec back.</P> <P>I'll have to try a respec now at 70 to see if it's improved.  I can tell you that I quite often out dps a monk guildy of mine whos' gone primarily down the Strength line.  I use the staff of flapping wings, specced stamina, and some in wisdom.</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>I only ever tried it at level 70, and that is exactly why.</P> <P>Devs have stated specifically that unarmed damage is more or less the DR of a storebought 2hander. Since storebought weapons change every 10 levels, and I can see what the level 60 weapons are like, I could directly compare them to the weapons I had or would get up through tier 7.</P> <P>At 70 that all changes of course. New storebought level (even if they don't exist yet), so it suddenly becomes viable. T6 was 39, T7 was 48, so I could expect T8 to be around 57 DR. Which is better than most weapons I could get my hands on, 2hand or dual wield.</P> <P>So once I get high 50s DR dual wield weapons, or 110-ish 2hander, then the only benefit the Str line has over doing say... the proc from Wis line maxed out... would be an extra +20% DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thing is... I've had a hard time finding such a set of weapons. Twin Calamities? Wurmslayer? Some stuff from high end named or events like 3 princes or tarinax, or the claymore weapon. Pretty much the equipment that 90% of the population will never see..</P> <P>I'm gunning for Wurmslayer and Marr's Fist as being my easiest "most likely attainable" choices... so once I've bled from my eyes from doing the claymore quests and crafted my way to 60 and then completed the HQ, maybe I'll respec out of Str line.</P> <P>Of course, by then the expansion will be out and they'll probably have even more AA's for unarmed that make it more worthwhile and I'll have to totally re-evaluate my situation.</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<FONT color=#ffff00> It's pretty hard to tell whether or not the added DPS was actually from switching to unarmed or if it was from a change in your AA's.</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well the numbers I posted were JUST for the autoattack portion. I was normally doing around 600-ish DPS (without any weird timing anomolies). I used ACT (Advanced Combat Tracker) so I could see exactly how much DPS my autoattack did on it's own.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So direct comparison.. weapon vs weapon... my hands are better than grizzfazzle weapon (by a LOT), however it still has to provide enough to be worth more than using a weapon AND some other use of the 16 points you have to put into this line.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:46 AM</span>

[Gobbwin]

<P>Random question.  IIRC Moorguard mentioned that the ATK rating visible in the persona window and the DPS #s that you would see in game were misleading (too high) and that they were eventually going to adjust this to show true values.  Would ACT be thrown off by this?  (I haven't used ACT, so I honestly haven't a clue how it parses exactly).</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW ty for all the good info, I've been contemplating respecing this path for some time now.  It's looking more favorable once the upcomming AA 'tweaks' are in place. (see mantis bolt no longer procing off of auto attack and lower crit hit %).</P><p>Message Edited by Gobbwin on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>ACT uses the numbers directly generated from combat. You hit for 132 damage and then 2 seconds later you hit for 155, etc. So no, the display problems on the persona screen won't affect ACT parses... which is good!</P>

[Dart]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>42 AA's and still growing...</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>I have played around with many combinations.. Here is why I had too.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>I recently moved guilds. My previous role was off tank MA. I had previously maxed Int then used the remain to get the ranged debuff Skill on the stam line and filled out str sta to 8 for the stats. My gear was legendary or treasured, no fabled so I saw my stats far lower than other level 70 Bruisers. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>Now I moved to a new guild, and my role changed. I was to provide my group DPS buff and be just that DPS... I respec'd 3 times playing around and watching DPS on every fight. You see its nice when you have solid raid schedule. I was able to test each raid instance with 3 different set ups. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>Now If you want to go DPS... here is my recommendation (coming from someone that bagged x2 49 Dam rating weapons). My only disclaimer will be other Bruisers insight into using high end fabled weapons.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>With Int line maxed, Stam and str stats maxed, throwing debuff AA. I was averaging around 500 to 700 in coerc group going all out. Occasionally I would hit 800 to 900 when CA timing was perfect, meaning group fight, and towards then end I had all of my big CA's refesh'd for the third time and was able to finish the mob with them. Again all lucky timing.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>Well here is where I am today Str 4-4-8 Int 4-4-8, stam 4-4-2 (will finish out stam as 4-4-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. My DPS on the same encounters that was doing 500 to 700, is now 800 to 1000 and higher. the only folks out DPSing me now on raids are Conj's (occasionally) and Assassins. I am very glad to have made this change, for the time being it seems to be working very well. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>I don't see many bruisers going barehanded, but I for one am loving it. I tear [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up solo, I post great DPS. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>IMHO the last choice of any of the AA lines blows goats and isnt worth the 8 points investement... by going 4-4-8 on Str/Int/Stam I am getting a huge boost in DPS (Thanks Normak for your advice). </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>Down falls: </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>This relys on our proc's. If we go againts a fire resistant mob, our dps can have a huge hit.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>LU24 nerf may change my overall DPS, but I have a feeling it will be across the board - no matter how you spec.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>No stats from weapons, no additoonal procs from weapons (not a big deal since they nerfed proc chance a while back)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006>BTW did I mention LU24 blows goats? Too many nerfs at once. Why cant they just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing chill and take it slow with these drastic changes.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00 size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006><FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00>Thats my take, I am sure I will try a respec down the road after filling in more fabled gear and earned some sweet fabled weapons.</FONT> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=135280215-25052006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>

[familyguyfan95]

I'll agree with you...i find that the strenght line really benifits you ONLY if you are in a group/raid that sees this. In a poorly planned group raid..it stinks...but in the right one..with coercer/illusionist bard and inquistor...YOU WILL be in the top 5 dps spot. have an inquiistor do his haste spell over and over agian and all of yoru scouts dps will skyrocket!

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>I was in a trash run in Labs, and stuck in the last group with two templars for healers and a bunch of casters. The casters were all putting their buffs on other DPS or their pets, cuz I got nothing from them. The only proc I got was to proc a group heal.</P> <P>I came in second for DPS using no weapons, every single parse. I had drink + totem to replace an enchanter giving power.</P> <P> </P> <P>DR is DR. If a weapon is inferior damage over time, it's not going to compete, whether you have 100% haste or nothing. The procs on weapons only helps the weapon do more damage, if you still do more damage then it doesn't matter if it can proc or not.</P> <P> </P>