PVPvB (PvP Vs. Bruisers)

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>in light of all the nerfs due to bruisers I can't help but think it's due to PvP servers.  our stun reductions, monks getting our fear, and all the other nerfs lately.....   It's really sad.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   I know I usually own people in duels, but thats just for fun.   SOny clearly stated that PvP was not going to affect the PvE game... and they have clearly reneg'd that statement.  </DIV>

[Danter]

<P>I agree the stun nerfs and Monks getting fear is a direct result of PvP.</P> <P>All the bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE fed us where PvP won't affect PvE was bunch of crap and here's why.  When PvP went live, they say they have different controls where stuff will only affect PvP and not affect PvE.  Well...news flash, the number of SOE coders stayed the same, so instead of designing 2 elements, 1 for PvE and 1 for PvP, they just design them both for PvP because it's less labor.</P> <P>Moorgard also claimed that Bruiser's fear was an "extra ability" that Monks didn't get.  Well when Fear and Mez are on the same timer and Monks get fear, we will be down 1 ability from Monks now.  So where the hell is our extra ability now since Monks have 1 more than we do?</P> <P>-Kald, 70 Bruiser Permafrost</P>

[LilLoco]

yea if they get bruiser abilitys bruisers should get tsunami <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR> <P>I agree the stun nerfs and Monks getting fear is a direct result of PvP.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT size=3>It is?  I just had a brief scan of the Monk boards and couldn't see anything about how PvP Monks were complaining about needing fear. Could you put a link to your sources?</FONT>

[ShinmaRyche]

<FONT color=#ffff00>Yeah, so much for "PvE wont be adjusted with PvP. We have the ability to balance PvP and PvE skills seperately..." LOL. What a crock.</FONT>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ShinmaRyche wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffff00>Yeah, so much for "PvE wont be adjusted with PvP. We have the ability to balance PvP and PvE skills seperately..." LOL. What a crock.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT size=3>PvP skills <EM>are</EM> different. If you don't want to take my word for it make a Bruiser and see for yourself.</FONT></P> <P> </P>

[ShinmaRyche]

<FONT color=#ffff00>I know they are different, but my point was they keep "balancing" the PvE skills when they change skills for PvP. I would have no problem if the changes to stuns etc were made for PvP only.</FONT>

[PhozFa]

<div></div>I don't agree with this post that much. In pvp bruisers stun for less and have a stun immunity crap. Its impossible to chain stun a player. So in turns they have been "nerfed" in pvp and was no reason to give nerfs in pve <div></div><p>Message Edited by PhozFate on <span class=date_text>05-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:24 AM</span>

[ganjookie]

<div><blockquote><hr>PhozFate wrote:<div></div>I don't agree with this post that much. In pvp bruisers stun for less and have a stun immunity crap. Its impossible to chain stun a player. So in turns they have been "nerfed" in pvp and was no reason to give nerfs in pve <div></div><p>Message Edited by PhozFate on <span class="date_text">05-15-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>QFESo true, in PvP Its pretty much impossible to chain stun somebody, even if they are afk</div>

[wayfaerer]

You guys are just joining on the 'hate PvP' bandwagon.The changes to stuns has nothing to do with PvP. Our stun duration is already drastically reduced in PvP, and if they wanted to reduce it even more for PvP they would have just done it that way. This change was done as part of the wide sweeping enchanter fix as you already know.I also can't see why they would give monks fear due to PvP. Fear and mez are both semi-useful skills in PvP but I really doubt monks are getting fear because of that. Monk is already a fine PvP class.I'm ashamed at the amount of whinging that goes on on this forum. You're supposed to be bruisers! Are you all playing bruisers to make up for the fact that you're whiny little girly crybabies in real life? Suck it up and go bodyslam a monk!<div></div>

[Morhaxvith]

<P>Exactly. Good answer. Too much whining on many here. </P> <P> </P> <P>Morx 70 Bruiser, Runnyeye</P>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>not joining a bandwagon....  I love the idea ov PvP servers...  but I also notice that ever since they went live, we have been getting hit with the nerf bat constantly.  People say were too overpowered because we do good in PvP.   The fact that we can solo well doesn't compensate for our lack of raid utility.  Brawlers are the 1st classes to get dropped from raids, and they are making us worse every day.  I've already had my guild leader tell our brawlers to consider re-rolling another toon if they want to stay in guild.  I'm sorry, but I'd gladly sacrifice some of my solo-ability to be able to bring more to a raid.  </DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>not joining a bandwagon....  I love the idea ov PvP servers...  but I also notice that ever since they went live, we have been getting hit with the nerf bat constantly.  People say were too overpowered because we do good in PvP.   The fact that we can solo well doesn't compensate for our lack of raid utility.  Brawlers are the 1st classes to get dropped from raids, and they are making us worse every day.  I've already had my guild leader tell our brawlers to consider re-rolling another toon if they want to stay in guild.  I'm sorry, but I'd gladly sacrifice some of my solo-ability to be able to bring more to a raid.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your guild leader sucks.

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>heh yeah it was a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty thing to say, but the truth of the matter is, that theres no place for 4 brawlers in a raid atm.  </DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV>4 Brawlers all doing 1k+ DPS with the ability to withstand damage like no other DPS class? I see no problem with this <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though 4 Brawlers is sorta overkill... it would make most raid encounters pretty trivial..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, basicly, the raid leader just wanted to make it more challenging..I get it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by MakhailSammael on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 AM</span>

[Zigmun]

<P>"The fact that we can solo well doesn't compensate for our lack of raid utility.  Brawlers are the 1st classes to get dropped from raids, and they are making us worse every day.  I've already had my guild leader tell our brawlers to consider re-rolling another toon if they want to stay in guild.  I'm sorry, but I'd gladly sacrifice some of my solo-ability to be able to bring more to a raid."</P> <P>I have been saying this over and over - it's amazing how few people get it. I suppose if you don't raid in a high end guild it's not a problem for you. But that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist - and for your sake you better clue in. Because when you get to 70 - what else is there to do? except raid?</P> <P>Say his guild leader sucks all you want - just shows that you don't understand certain truths about our class.</P> <P>The fact is there are very few high end rading guilds on any given server and as a Bruiser it is very hard to get in. Because we simply lack the utility of other classes. </P> <P>No one ever cancelled a raid because they couldn't get a Bruiser.</P> <P>I think Monks need a buff btw - hmmm maybe we should give em a mezz ability <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zigmund9 wrote:<BR> <P>"The fact that we can solo well doesn't compensate for our lack of raid utility.  Brawlers are the 1st classes to get dropped from raids, and they are making us worse every day.  I've already had my guild leader tell our brawlers to consider re-rolling another toon if they want to stay in guild.  I'm sorry, but I'd gladly sacrifice some of my solo-ability to be able to bring more to a raid."</P> <P>I have been saying this over and over - it's amazing how few people get it. I suppose if you don't raid in a high end guild it's not a problem for you. But that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist - and for your sake you better clue in. Because when you get to 70 - what else is there to do? except raid?</P> <P>Say his guild leader sucks all you want - just shows that you don't understand certain truths about our class. <FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00> Hmm..5th Bruiser to 60 & 6th Bruiser to 70 on server, been playing a Bruiser in High end guild for over a year (was not my first toon), have 400 24-person raids under my belt (and countless smaller & non-official raids), and a frequenter of the Bruiser community and the rest of the forums since day one learning my class as well as I can.. yeah, I think I understand my class pretty well, thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And Crab knows I am teasing (or he should :smileytongue: ).</FONT></P> <P>The fact is there are very few high end rading guilds on any given server and as a Bruiser it is very hard to get in. Because we simply lack the utility of other classes.  </P> <P> <FONT color=#ffff00>There are about 4 or 5 High End raiding guilds on my server that all carry 2 Bruisers. Thats about on par with how many of any class is in each of these guilds.</FONT></P> <P>No one ever cancelled a raid because they couldn't get a Bruiser.<FONT color=#ffff00> </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>True.. or most and DPS for that matter. Actually, we have never cancelled a raid for any reason. We just adapt and move on even if all our Mt's do not show up we just go make it happen.</FONT></P> <P>I think Monks need a buff btw - hmmm maybe we should give em a mezz ability <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <FONT color=#ffff00>The sky is not falling. :smileyvery-happy:</FONT>

[ganjookie]

[Removed for Content] just hit me on the head then!<div></div>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>We do lack utility though, because even if all 4 brawlers can do 1K dps on a raid (Which isn't so.   2 monks will do about 600-800 dps, and the 2 bruisers will do 800-1100 dps depending on groups),  we will still get bumped for classes that bring more to the raid than just dps.   Need a brigand for debuffs, need a dirge for combat rezes and massive group buffs, need a swashy to do a little of everything, need a crusader to give the MT more Mitigation, need chanters for mana, and they have summoners and sorceres, predators and stuff for dps....  Our one debuff and One group buff don't really make the cut.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    our biggest raid utility at the moment is Feign Death in case of a wipe, but SK's and Necro's can do that also... and monks have the group version at their disposal, so they own us in that department.  I personally maxxed out Mantis Star, to have another descent debuff, but we still need something more real.   Monks can save a groups life with FD.... we shoudl be at the other end of teh spectrum... IE give us another debuff.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Allow our stuns to work on epics, and give us a nice debuff, or something to add more functionality to a raid than just dps.  </DIV>

[wayfaerer]

Wait a second, you guys are complaining about bruiser utility on raids? So what does PvP have to do with this again? You're blaming PvP for the nerfs to stuns/mez/fear, when none of that stuff even works on epics anyway.You are really stretching your complaint now. It's blatantly obvious that you're just PvP hate bandwagoners. You should at least have the balls to admit it.<div></div>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote: ---SNiP---<div> </div> <div>   Allow our stuns to work on epics, and give us a nice debuff, or something to add more functionality to a raid than just dps. ---SNiP--- </div><hr></blockquote>hating on pvp or not this statement should be looked at. I don't see it happenng but we do need a little more than DPS for a raid. While it is possible for us to tank a raid a plate tank will get picked before us. Thats the way it is, raid leaders want relibility and therefor go for mitigation. I can accept this. But then give us a debuff/buff that people want us around for. All we have on raids is really dps and some classes want that nerfed. DPS is a dime a dozen. There are 6-8 classes that can fill a dps role and soem of them do more than just dps. I guess its something we need to deal with because i don't see it changing. Some classes are great solo, some are great group and some are great raid. While no class is NEEDED to raid some bring alot more table than others. We happen to be one that brings 500-1K dps (depending on gear, and raid setup) Off skill debuff, 24% (not in game but i think thats master) DPS boost, good looks, and high HPs for AEs. <div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV> I hear all this "raid setup to top 1k DPS on a raid", so the other night in Lab I happened to be in a non DPS group. Think I had a Pally, Gaurdian (pretty certain the deagro buff was ftw <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), Assassin (put poison on me), Wizard (did get strength from Wizzy), and some other class (I forget..).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I was sitting at around 580 strength and 20% haste (from my own items), and 24% DPS (from my DPS buff). I was using the metallic BP, in offensive stance, flapping wing staff, Sta/Wis/Int AA's at 4/4/8, and rumble turned off. In this group through multiple named fights I was still close to or topping 1k DPS each fight. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Now, that is far from the ideal group I like to be in, but I really never care, I seem to put up those numbers no matter where they put me. Now give me an lillusionist and a zerker in that gruop as well.. it just gets ugly lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I'm not sure if its just my guild, but I think I bring a hell of a lot to each raid I am on and generally they will bring me over many other DPS classes. When we get in a rough fight and the other dps classes start eating it, when the dust settles, there I am still beating the crap out of the mob. I think thats what sets us apart from the rest. We do not provide Utility in the traditional sense.. we bring survivability to the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Mob AE's that has a stunned attached? Conj and necros pets are dropping, melee DPS standing there with there fingers up there bums (MT and healers get all the attention and unstunned first), I giggle to myself, cancel my stun, wait about 25 seconds and throw up stone def (mitigation buff if its trauma AOE) and close mind to eat the next AOE and keep on beating the mobs [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Mob has multiple AOE's on different timers? Pretty much pets are getting eaten quicker then they can summon them. Melee DPS has to stay ranged..oh, except for me ;p. I get to run up in there with me uber hp's and stone deaf and start beating the mob at my leisure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> The point here is that DPS is like tanking, its situational. If its just a straight beatdown trashmob, then that not really my game. I will come close to the top, but many will still be parsing 1600+ on the parser with me coming in around 1k-1.2k. Yeah, I can be replaced there. But, when its time to get dirty.. ain't nothing like having a bruiser or two in your corner<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>I know that and you know that, but we need something more tangible... to make us more in demand.  I'll take something like Call of teh Hero or something...   I used to have Crane Flock in AA's... and when I woudl bust that out i'd easily break 2K dps .... even hit 5K dps on a short fight once....   but nobody cares, because we are [Removed for Content] bruisers who bring nothing to the raid in most peoples minds. </DIV>

[Zigmun]

<P>Mikhail</P> <P>You make some good points but you are missing the point of my post.</P> <P>Everything you said you can pretty well say about Monks, plus they are getting a mezz ability - (like they really need one).</P> <P>I am not arguing that we are not a formidible class - but the Monk is as well. </P> <P>Th Monk solos as well as we do, they pvp as well as we do, do roughly the same dps, have better avoidance than us (which I would take over mit) and they have more group and raid utility than us.</P> <P>I am just saying that given all of our counter parts strengths and utility - it isn't too much to ask that the Bruiser have it's "niche" as well?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Zigmund9 wrote:<div></div> <p>Mikhail</p> <p>You make some good points but you are missing the point of my post.</p> <p>Everything you said you can pretty well say about Monks, plus they are getting a mezz ability - (like they really need one).</p> <p>I am not arguing that we are not a formidible class - but the Monk is as well. </p> <p>Th Monk solos as well as we do, they pvp as well as we do, do roughly the same dps,<font size="5"><b> have better avoidance than us (which I would take over mit)</b></font> and they have more group and raid utility than us.</p> <p>I am just saying that given all of our counter parts strengths and utility - it isn't too much to ask that the Bruiser have it's "niche" as well?</p> <p>  </p><hr></blockquote>Why? Its well known mitigation is superior to aviodance when it comes to tanking. Why do you think plate tanks are raid tanks? While gaige might tank raids hes a minority for his class.  I'd much rather have the mitigation advantge over the monks. Being able to bust out guard like mitigation for short periods of time is an option I love. about my bruiser. <div></div>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>Yeah but in a good group you can get 6K mit no problem.</DIV>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div>Yeah but in a good group you can get 6K mit no problem.</div><hr></blockquote>how much % is that <span>:smileytongue:</span> I go by % due to the fact that is the true form of how much we gain from it and also that how the cap is determined. Also keep in mind crab i bet your at 100% fabled by now which a small amount of bruisers are that way. <div></div>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>nah, alot of the best loot in game is legendary.  most of the fabled gear in T7 is junkie.  Claymore quest rewards beat an awful lot of raid drops. sad</DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV> I have full fabled that I will wear most times for the mitigation and HP/Power. The stats do not hold up against some of the legendary (which I also have) but during raid I am usually capped on str/agi/stam for the most part anyways, so the extra HP/Power and mitigation for me becomes more important. I generally also see my int/wis above 200 during raids as I grab a lot of off stat jewelry (for some reason they like giving int/wis items mitigation bonuses.. which is strange imho). Not to mention the timer decreases for the relic BP and pants are also very much needed imo. Though I do agree that the stats for the fabled do need looking at, but as all I really do is raid, I will stick with the fabled.</DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PhozFate wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah but in a good group you can get 6K mit no problem.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>how much % is that <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN><BR><BR>I go by % due to the fact that is the true form of how much we gain from it and also that how the cap is determined. Also keep in mind crab i bet your at 100% fabled by now which a small amount of bruisers are that way. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> The %cap is skewed as well though unless all your doing is fighting solo mobs. 80% mitigation means what for a lvl 74 X4 mob?

[Dart]

<DIV><SPAN class=135280215-25052006><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Introducing PvP to a game designed around PVE always [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up. WTG SOE - the tardfactor for the win!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

[WaachBack]

<DIV>Well, you guys might as well roll up a pvp character then huh? :smileyvery-happy: It was hard to give up my lvl 70 pve bruiser for my pvp monk but I must tell you its worth the trouble. :smileyhappy:</DIV>