grizzle vs. flapping wings staff

[Sick1]

<DIV> <DIV>Looking for a little help.  Was wondering if it was worth losing the 50 str and quite a few health to go from the grizzlefazzle staff at about 91 dr to the flapping wings staff at 108 dr.  with the loss of the 50 str, would the flapping wings staff still do quite a bit more damage? And, hehe, is it worth 9pp to buy it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thanks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sheer 70 monk</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV></DIV>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>I use the flapping wing staff religiously.   the damage is awesome, and the proc is great.   I also use teh Wisdom line for AA's, so I really love staves.   </DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I use the flapping wing staff religiously.   the damage is awesome, and the proc is great.   I also use teh Wisdom line for AA's, so I really love staves.   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So it does more dps than griz's staff? (I meant the higher DR vs. 50 str.) Also, does it look like griz's staff? (character animation.) I just saw it on broker for 7pp, should I buy it? (I always use wis line AA <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)<BR>

[Keno]

stat loss normally doesnt make too much of a difference cause you can gain it back on some other item. look is like the 2h mage prisma2, just without the green particle effect <div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Factoring the procs, the weapons have the following DRs:</P> <P><EM>Grizzfazzle's Greatstaff</EM>: <STRONG>101.2</STRONG> DR</P> <P><EM>Staff of the Flapping Wing</EM>: <STRONG>120.3 </STRONG>DR</P> <P> </P> <P>There's no way 50 Str can provide that much more damage. Not to mention the throwback, and added self healing/wisdom for resists.</P> <P>Actually... the flapping wing is better than most dual wield weapons, short of fabled. If you get your hands on the flapping wing, it would take a pretty good set of weapons to outdo it.</P> <P>Now I just need to get my hands on one... where does it drop again? Trash in an epic instance iirc?</P>

[Keno]

trash in ascent <div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quicksilver74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I use the flapping wing staff religiously.   the damage is awesome, and the proc is great.   I also use teh Wisdom line for AA's, so I really love staves.   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never unequip it myself anymore. Use to unequip it solo for that healing baseball bat thing, but anymore, the extra stun from the AA line and the damage do not make it worth it. </P> <P>If you can raid I would not spend 9 plat on it, but if you cannot get into assent with 2 groups to kill trash then you might as well buy one.</P>

[Maelwy]

<P>as an ogre bruiser, i cap str fairly commonly in most group builds, so its a definate upgrade.</P> <P>trioing with an inqui and a coercer the other day....50+ haste buff and 100 dps buff...was auto attacking on crits for 1400-1600 damage... with the flapping wing</P>

[Dfoley3]

hm might want to check your logs, cause i can crit for up to 2.4k with flapping wing, :-p

[Maelwy]

<P>yeah, i've seen it higher - in a full group, with a better debuff/buff combo...but that was just the trio...  and thats just sick.</P> <P> </P> <P>Throw some more buffs/debuffs around, and the staff is godly.  </P>

[wcheet]

<P>finaly hit lvl 63 last nnight and ditched my DW setup so i can use the flapping wing, although when i did equip it my attack rating went down, when i get home later today i cant wait to use it!</P> <P>a question though, when it procs is there a graphic that goes with it? and do we get the skill show up in the CA window so you know it has proced?</P> <P>cheers</P>

[Maelwy]

lol, yes...you pull it back like a bow, and it shoots an arrow outta the head of the staff, which a moment later will be stuck in the mob you're fighting.  quite hilarious...

[ganjookie]

lol seriously thats great!<div></div>

[mr23sgte]

Holy #$@  I thought it was just me seeing this -- I was like a bow .............hmmmmmmm

[Nander]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<div></div><p>Factoring the procs, the weapons have the following DRs:</p><p><em>Grizzfazzle's Greatstaff</em>: <strong>101.2</strong> DR</p><p><em>Staff of the Flapping Wing</em>: <strong>120.3 </strong>DR</p><hr></blockquote>What is the way to calculate DR? Here i paste stats of Staff of Flapping Wing:<img src="http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/1910/captura0059in.jpg">My reference data for weapon damage is (xx Rating)Greetings</div>

[Maelwy]

thats an old item description, before it was fixed.  the dr is right next to the damage.  but it has been increased.

[wcheet]

lol, i didnt think you were being serious abot the bow effect, but you were right, most amusing!

[ganjookie]

how much is the dmg from the proc..I know its not 4..is it?<div></div>

[mr23sgte]

I think mine says 127 or 128 points dmg, I forget.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>What is the way to calculate DR?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can calculate DR by taking the damage and delay, and normalizing over 2 seconds (sort of like with procs, only the other way around).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take the grizzle staff for example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>damage: <STRONG>57-171</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>delay: <STRONG>2.5s</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>DR: <STRONG>91.2</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>average hit: <STRONG>114</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>normalized hit % (2s divided by 2.5s): <STRONG>80%</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>calculated Damage Rating: 80% of 114 = <STRONG><U>91.2</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've found this form of calculation to be accurate within ~0.3 points, which is good enough for comparison sake.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to factor in procs in the DR, just add that damage to the average hit and voila. For the grizzle staff:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>proc damage: <STRONG>214-397</STRONG> (for me)</DIV> <DIV>avg damage: <STRONG>305.5</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>proc chance: <STRONG>5%</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>actual chance per hit: 2.5s divided by 3s (83%) x 5% = <STRONG>4.16%</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>average damage per hit over time: <STRONG>12.7</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>new average weapon damage: <STRONG>126.7</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>calculated Damage Rating with proc: 80% of 126.7 = <STRONG><U>~101.3</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This, by no means, is a perfect way to determine a weapon's effectiveness... it's just a tool for comparisons.</DIV> <DIV>There can be outside factors that can wildly change how well YOU perform with that weapons... things like resistability of the proc vs average mob, ability scores on the weapon, or even how well the weapon delay meshes with your Combat Art usage (the old 2h vs dual wield debate).</DIV> <DIV>You can still use it for comparison though. If a weapon has a DR of 80 vs another with a DR of 120... well that can be a nobrainer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, a quick way to figure how well it might perform is the more "sure thing" something is, the better. This is because it will have a lower "minimum" over the long haul, whereas the more random item can pull in low a bunch of times in a row when you really needed it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would always take a single digit proc over a proc with a range... a higher chance of proc'ing a lower amount, over a  larger proc with a small chance of happening... and a straight up high damaging weapon over one that does just as much but only with the proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Small wonder the Flapping Wing is so good. 108 starting DR, with a 10% chance proc that's a flat number (more reliable procing). It would be even better if it had a straight up 120 DR with just a knockdown proc... but we can't have everything. And it's nice to see proc damage sometimes... visual pleasure has it's own value.</DIV>

[djinnz]

<DIV>well i have to admitt i wasnt convinced, i went out bought a sotfw and saw what it did to my attack rateing (dropped by almost 70 points) and thought those guys on the forum have fleeced me here. but after about 3 weeks now and recently starting to parse my damage, i can only agree the sotfw is heads and shoulders above all the other weapons i got so far, clearing the doombringer and grizz staff by around 100-200dps on most fights</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>What is the way to calculate DR?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can calculate DR by taking the damage and delay, and normalizing over 2 seconds (sort of like with procs, only the other way around).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take the grizzle staff for example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>damage: <STRONG>57-171</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>delay: <STRONG>2.5s</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>DR: <STRONG>91.2</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>average hit: <STRONG>114</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>normalized hit % (2s divided by 2.5s): <STRONG>80%</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>calculated Damage Rating: 80% of 114 = <STRONG><U>91.2</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've found this form of calculation to be accurate within ~0.3 points, which is good enough for comparison sake.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to factor in procs in the DR, just add that damage to the average hit and voila. For the grizzle staff:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>proc damage: <STRONG>214-397</STRONG> (for me)</DIV> <DIV>avg damage: <STRONG>305.5</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>proc chance: <STRONG>5%</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>actual chance per hit: 2.5s divided by 3s (83%) x 5% = <STRONG>4.16%</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>average damage per hit over time: <STRONG>12.7</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>new average weapon damage: <STRONG>126.7</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>calculated Damage Rating with proc: 80% of 126.7 = <STRONG><U>~101.3</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I think this is incorrect. When your weapon proc, you do proc for 214-397 damage. However, you do not only hit for 57-171 a swing auto attack. You can probably hit for 5 times more than 57-171 self buffed. Therefore, you might wanna divide the proc damage by 5.<BR>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>You know, that's absolutely correct. There's a flaw in there that the proc damage is in real time, whereas the DR is just the base damage... </P> <P>However, there's no set number you can divide the proc. The actual damage the weapon does is based on your Strength score, so that can easily fluctuate. And while we can try and base it as if your Strength score is maxed,  it's then also possible it's based on level... which means we now have a potential scaling factor.</P> <P>Maybe it's a factor of 5 at 70 with maxed Strength?</P> <P> </P> <P>If anything, it just shows that procs have a smaller effect on DR. So if you are comparing between a weapon with a proc, and a weapon without, you can expect that the proc will be less than 5 DR overall added to the weapon (25 damage per hit is huge... that's already 600 damage average per proc!).</P> <P>And less than 5 DR difference is enough for me to decide what to use based on looks or weapon type preference (fist over hammer, etc).</P>