Lu23: double attack no longer provides an additional chance to trigger a proc

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>*** Achievements ***<BR> <BR>- Rogue: A successful double attack no longer provides an additional chance to trigger a proc.<BR> <BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=11144#M11144" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=11144#M11144</A><BR> <BR>Ok... now our offensive stance is even more useless...</DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Egh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>offensive stance has little veyr little impact. This only affects brawlers who choose the str aa line. Then if you used the offensive stance you still had an abysmal proc rate. Says 5% but honestly seems to be less. I would rather use the mix stance which at least has a 10% proc chance. This change is only a small change in solo or group dps since we dotn have alot of procs. What it does is keep classes w near 100% double atk and 100% haste from putting out massive raid dps numbers.  For brawlers that would be 1200+. For rogues that was ~1500+.  This change affects all classes with double attack moreso rogues w thier poisen. </DIV>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <DIV>*** Achievements ***<BR> <BR>- Rogue: A successful double attack no longer provides an additional chance to trigger a proc.<BR> <BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=11144#M11144" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=11144#M11144</A><BR> <BR>Ok... now our offensive stance is even more useless...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I just read the test notes, and it implies that this change applies to everyone, not just rogues. I guess it goes hand in hand with the nerf they gave to Scouts on procs from multiple attacks?

[Carna]

<DIV>It's confirmed by a dev in the Swashbuckler forum that it does indeed apply to everybody.</DIV>

[Raz]

I still felt this skill benefitted Monks more than Bruisers.  I feel for those of you who this hurts, but at least it isnt as bad as the original proc nerfs which affected our core skills.  I just hate that they have effectively taken an alternate way for people to spec an aa line and thrown it in the trash.  I dont know what the most damaging aa choice was, as i tossed around sta 4/4/8 wis 4/4/8 int 4/4/8 versus changing wis for str versus going  wis 4/4/8/4/8.  I just hope this doesnt make for cookie cutter choices.

[Gungo]

<P>soloing a bruiser has at most 2 procs lets say mid stance and the taunt/dam proc. Both those account for ~10% of your dps. Majoruty of solo dps comes from your combat arts. with a 50% proc reduction you lose at most 5% dps. (note w mid or offensive stance i see at most 1-2 procs a fight while soloing)</P> <P>grouping you have 1 of the 2 above procs.  Taunt/dam while tanking or offnesive stance while DPSing. and maybe 2 procs added from other classes. If they where high damage procs added such as assasin or wizard procs they might account for up to 20% of your Dps. with a 50% reduction to proc rate thats a 10% reduction at most.</P> <P>In raids lets say your offensive. You have a illusionist, wizard, assasin, conjuror, inquistor, bruiser w the str aa line you now have 96% double atk, ~25% crit rate w int line and awakened neck, ~60-70% dps (using potion), and ~100% haste (using potion) and at least 6 high dam procs. these are the situations where people would take advantage and produce 1200+dps numbers. If you were a monk you could replace the illusionist with a coercer and have ~100% dps as well.  This change limits procs from becoming 4x more powerful.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:37 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Egh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>offensive stance has little veyr little impact. This only affects brawlers who choose the str aa line. Then if you used the offensive stance you still had an abysmal proc rate. Says 5% but honestly seems to be less. I would rather use the mix stance which at least has a 10% proc chance.</FONT> This change is only a small change in solo or group dps since we dotn have alot of procs. What it does is keep classes w near 100% double atk and 100% haste from putting out massive raid dps numbers.  For brawlers that would be 1200+. For rogues that was ~1500+.  This change affects all classes with double attack moreso rogues w thier poisen. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just so you know, the mixed stance has 5%, offensive stance has 10%. You've got your numbers reversed.... offensive stance procs more often, for more damage. That's not to say that it's great, but mixed stance proc is still lesser than offensive.

[Azzazal]

After many A respec, I settled on STR/INT/Wis, It seem'd the best overall for my playstyle. I used staff of flapping for tanking and bare hand for sheer dps in groups, i parsed and parsed and even with a 108 wep, bare hand AA due to our innate poc rate does indeed parse higher. Now as i have respec'd a few times to get my "ultimate" playstyle its getting a tad expensive!So my question is DEVS are we getting another free respec?Azzazal eq1/eq2 60 ranger "retired/made usless"Tarheru 65 bruiser "might get retired if you keep fannying around with changes"Hermit 49 Monk " I used to be loved till Tarheru"/sigh As a side note and after playing this game since beta i have seen numerous changes, not the normal run of the mill stuff that one would expect in games but overall class mechanics. Perhaps it would be prudent of the devs to actually sit back take a week off and then decide exactly what each class SHOULD be, a look at the amount of "retired" characters and unplayed classes must be saying something?.<div></div>

[Vorham]

<div></div>early on I maxed out STR line and gave it a try... it was nice... and it wasnt niceDPS was pretty good and the double chance to proc was very coolHowever it was VERY slow when not grouped with a haste'r, and the loss of HP and other stats really sucked... we're talking a few hundred HP difference in HP at least, not to mention avoidance from AGI as well as ATK rating (though the number was higher than normal I could see a difference when trying to hit raid mobs and/or dueling people in their defense stance)Imagining a monk with near maxed haste with it made me jealous TBH, in fact it inspired me to post about our offense stance [Removed for Content]... EVEN WITH THE DOUBLE CHANCE TO PROCGo unarmed and get in a group with max haste... yeah.  You'll see how lame Engulf procs are...It was just so darn slow.  Felt like fighting in molasses.  But when you hit you'd have 2x the chance of seein engulf or roughousing... also you'd throw 2x the ranged arts.  That was really nice.10 bucks says they nerf that alsoAnyway, I'd never go unarmed now<div></div><p>Message Edited by Vorham on <span class=date_text>04-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:04 AM</span>

[PhozFa]

I feel this has very little effect on us. Very few bruisers went STR AA (the only way we can double attack). Most of the reasons have been stated time and time again so i wont' bother listing them again <div></div>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PhozFate wrote:<BR>I feel this has very little effect on us. Very few bruisers went STR AA (the only way we can double attack). Most of the reasons have been stated time and time again so i wont' bother listing them again<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT size=4>The fact that very few Bruisers went STR AA proves this line is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing crap  - except for Monks, for whom it's great. I'm probably one of the few who's doing the STR line - and that's only 'cause I started a new toon for PvP and can't afford any decent weapons yet. Once I've got my CAs to Adept III and my armour all upgraded I'm going to start saving for decent weapons - or preferably get some on raids.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>Either way, with the STR line the way it is for Bruisers right now I can't wait to get rid of it.  </FONT><FONT size=4>The Devs should take note that <U>the only real advantage of taking this line is to save money</U>. This is not what they envisaged - unless they're crazy - so perhaps they'll have another look at making this line viable again.</FONT> <FONT size=4>I'd imagine that if STR AA was a proven way to maximise DPS then a lot of Bruisers would take it. As it is, it's just a waste of everyone's time and might as well not even have been introduced.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>04-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:23 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Egh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>offensive stance has little veyr little impact. This only affects brawlers who choose the str aa line. Then if you used the offensive stance you still had an abysmal proc rate. Says 5% but honestly seems to be less. I would rather use the mix stance which at least has a 10% proc chance.</FONT> This change is only a small change in solo or group dps since we dotn have alot of procs. What it does is keep classes w near 100% double atk and 100% haste from putting out massive raid dps numbers.  For brawlers that would be 1200+. For rogues that was ~1500+.  This change affects all classes with double attack moreso rogues w thier poisen. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just so you know, the mixed stance has 5%, offensive stance has 10%. You've got your numbers reversed.... offensive stance procs more often, for more damage. That's not to say that it's great, but mixed stance proc is still lesser than offensive.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Are you sure? I Was pretty certain it was the other way around i know it sounds odd. I am not by my game comp so it can be i am wrong. I thought mid had 10% and off had 5%.  Either or it is still sad when i only see ~2 procs a fight of engulf w offensive.<BR></DIV> <DIV>Still str line is still a good line and yes it does benefit greatly from haste. But i think that mechanic is fine. Either way solo and group w/o decent fabeld wpns the str line is still the best DPS combo. You still achieve 96% double atk, ~60%Dps (w potion), and ~30% haste (fbss and potion), and ~23% crit(int line) solo. not to shabby for a solo or group (dps) bruiser. this change mostly effects raid dps combined w this str aa line. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The one truth is haste is the single biggest dps factor in game. 100% haste effectively makes 1 hit into 2 hits. combined with 96% doubel atk that 1 hit becomes 4 hits. combiend with 100% dps each of those 4 hits do double damage. Combined w ~25% crit (int and awakened neck). then 1 hit becoems 4 hits doing double damage w 2 chances to proc and 25% chance of crits. It is stil not a bad AA line it just will not be abused in raids anymore w appleid procs.   </DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Well here's the facts (as I understand them... feel free to correct me):</P> <P>1. Unarmed damage has been stated by devs that it is like using a store-bought twohanded weapon. Damage rating-wise.</P> <P>2. Store-bought twohanded weapons (rosewood or adamantine) have a damage rating of 48.9.</P> <P>3. The Str line ability gives you 96% chance to double attack, and +20% DPS.</P> <P>4. You will no longer be able to proc off the second attack, so it is purely for added damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lets work with those numbers.</P> <P>Now, as long as you aren't reaching 100% to +DPS without the ability, we can use the +20% as being something it has extra over normal weapons. So we'll look at it that way, although keep in mind you lose out some if you are in a group maxing your DPS over and above the ability's bonus.</P> <P>So we can multiply 48.9 by 1.96 (96% chance of extra attack), and then multiply again by 1.2 (+20% DPS). This gives us a grand total of <FONT color=#ff0000>115 DR</FONT> (115.012<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Without the +DPS advantage, we'd be looking at a starting comparison score of only <FONT color=#ff0000>95 DR</FONT> (95.844).</P> <P> </P> <P>Now let's look at weapons.</P> <P>DR seems to basically be an average of the damage, normalized around 2 seconds (accuracy is around 0.5). If you don't believe me, take a bunch of weapons, find the average damage, divide 2/delay, and compare the result. Doing that I've found results close enough to use in comparisons.</P> <P>This means we can take any added damage from procs into account for the DR. Always keep in mind what you are facing of course... something with high magic resist might not be affected as much by magic procs, etc...</P> <P>So lets take a look at a standard t7 weapon, Pristine Imbued Ebony Quarterstaff (17-51, 1.6s delay, DR 42.3, 5% proc 226-419).</P> <P>First off, the proc has a 2.667% chance of happening per hit (proc's normalize over 3 seconds). So taking the average damage (322.5) with that chance, we get an average added damage of 8.6 (8.599785). Those weapons that add only 20 damage per hit (ravasect shredders) starting to look good now, eh?</P> <P>Let's redo the DR with the added proc damage. Average damage of 17-51 is 34, adding 8.6, and normalizing over 2 seconds: <FONT color=#ff0000>~53.25 DR</FONT>.</P> <P>Now we can basically double that since dual wield allows the offhand to proc it's own proc (unlike the double hit feature in the upcoming patch), so we get a grand total DR of <FONT color=#ff0000>~106.5</FONT>.</P> <P>Not to mention an additional 28 Str, 28 Agi, 28 Sta, and 96 hitpoints and 96 power.</P> <P> </P> <P>So honestly... without the double proc rate, the unarmed attack line is, at best, going to be slightly better than rare crafted t7. This advantage disappears once you get into even slightly better weapons... such as a Hammer of Formation. And if you get anything much better, like 55+ DR weapons (or high 40s with a decent proc), and you are better off with the weapon, period.</P> <P>Honestly, I'd only suggest using the Strength line for leveling... once you hit the 50s and 60s, you are going to run into some pretty good weapons.. and at this time, there's no item or weapon that can provide fabled (or even high legendary) level of bonuses or damage for unarmed strikes.</P> <P>Now if they just made it so handwraps would add bonuses <STRONG>to</STRONG> our unarmed strike, instead of <STRONG>replacing</STRONG> it with it's own attack... then we can see complete viability of unarmed strikes, that still has a dependancy on crafted or dropped items (not for free).</P> <P> </P> <P>*Edit* Fixed proc % rate on imbued weapon, used wrong delay initially to figure it out. DR is subsequently lower, but still pretty close.</P><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>04-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:54 PM</span>

[Owa]

<P><FONT size=4>Thanks for doing the sums.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>So.... the STR AA, which is specifically geared towards DPS,  doesn't actually do that much more DPS than using weapons, and does less than using good weapons.  Figure in the fact that weapons give you stat bonuses AND also free you to use a completely different AA line with all its own benefits, and the STR AA is not</FONT><FONT size=4> that attractive an option, is it?</FONT></P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Well.. you can get a pretty huge crushing debuff on the previous ability, so that's another factor. However, you have to weigh it against the abilities of the other lines. And it's against only one target.</P> <P>And it is still pretty high, considering its 10 DR higher than the rare crafted. Better all treasured weapons, and even some legendary. I'd say it's better than the "good" weapons... but once you get high end items, you are falling behind.</P>

[Gungo]

<P>so fabled wpns are better dps then 17 aa's.  I for one always thought that is how it should be. furthmore the DR really does not equal the true potential of this AA line. Hence why people were posting 1200-1500 dps on raids using applied procs. Like i said before this change mostly affects raid dps with minimal change on solo/group dps. </P> <P>EDIT: also your numbers might be off since you based your bare fist dam rating on a store bought 2hander DR. Which afaik is not exactly the DR on bare fist. They calculated bare fist DR on the monk board per lvl. And bare fists in T7 equalled the same Dr of a 112dr 2 hander or two 57 DR dual wields. just for reference there are nine fabled game wide that beat those damage ratings.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>04-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:02 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <P>Well here's the facts (as I understand them... feel free to correct me):</P> <P>1. Unarmed damage has been stated by devs that it is like using a store-bought twohanded weapon. Damage rating-wise.</P> <P>2. Store-bought twohanded weapons (rosewood or adamantine) have a damage rating of 48.9.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Moorgard said it's like a store-bought 2hd weapon "of your level." 48.9 ones are level 60 weapons, not level 70. So at level 70, you're barefist DR will be higher (but I dont know how much.)<BR>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>also your numbers might be off since you based your bare fist dam rating on a store bought 2hander DR. Which afaik is not exactly the DR on bare fist. They calculated bare fist DR on the monk board per lvl. And bare fists in T7 equalled the same Dr of a 112dr 2 hander or two 57 DR dual wields. just for reference there are nine fabled game wide that beat those damage ratings.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is that with or without double attack? With the +20% DPS? With procs or not? Did they take into account misses? Crits? Ripostes?</DIV> <DIV>How do you calculate DR from what your character is doing when your character is adding in a bunch of strength damage, etc?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously the damage done from a weapon with all your buffs and items will be different from the listed DR... but that doesn't really help us compare things, now does it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying they are outright wrong... I'm just saying I don't know about putting my faith in numbers gained from in-game testing. Mine it from taking facts provided by devs and in game stats, and getting a logical breakdown.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, the lvl 70 storebought weapon COULD change the numbers a bit... however, the jump isn't that huge between tiers. It's on the magnitude of 5 points or so... so we could look at adding about 10 DR to my original score. It's pretty good.. but enough to overweigh the stats and bonus effects? And is it still enough to decline those fabled brawler weapons when they come along?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Edit* This doesn't mean I'm not still going to try it out for a bit. Once I have all my points set up, I'll respec with the Strength line and see just how well I do at lvl 70. Worth a try at least.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 AM</span>

[Bewts]

You all realize that procs account for less than 10% of your total DPS?  DR on your weapon and how fast you swing it (called auto attack) accounts for 60% of your total DPS and your combat arts account for another 30-35% of your DPS. They are only tinkering with the SMALLEST contributor to brawler DPS.  I wouldn't go respec'ing over this change if your goal was max DPS. <div></div>

[deadsidedemon]

<P>1) I like weapons.  Granted, brawlers don't have many choices for weapons.  Going STR is kind of like saying, "I can't get any good weapons, so I'm not using weapons at all!"  Perfectly valid.</P> <P>2) Keep in mind that *not* going STR means you have a lot of AAs to spend on other damage increasing abilities.  That seems to be left out of the calculations.  Is a 115 DR better than a 100 DR with a 20+% chance to crit, for instance?  It's not as black and white as some are making it out to be.</P> <P> </P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bewts wrote:<BR>You all realize that procs account for less than 10% of your total DPS?  DR on your weapon and how fast you swing it (called auto attack) accounts for 60% of your total DPS and your combat arts account for another 30-35% of your DPS.<BR><BR>They are only tinkering with the SMALLEST contributor to brawler DPS.  I wouldn't go respec'ing over this change if your goal was max DPS.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>With the double attack function, procs are far more than 10% of your DPS. Especially on long fights (epics) when running out of power means the other 30-35% can't happen anymore (or not as often). And when you have proc'ing aa's, items that grant procs, and grouped with people who give you procs (furies, inquisitors, conjurors, warlocks, etc), having a blanket +96% more proc'ing can amplify that in a big way.</P> <P>How do you think people parsed 1200-1500 DPS? Not with combat abilities...</P> <P>But anyways, my calculations were to see if the Str line was even valid at all... not just because of the upcoming change. I wanted to figure out some kind of comparison between weapons with procs and double attacking unarmed. This is what would influence my decision to go respec'ing.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>2) Keep in mind that *not* going STR means you have a lot of AAs to spend on other damage increasing abilities.  That seems to be left out of the calculations.  Is a 115 DR better than a 100 DR with a 20+% chance to crit, for instance?  It's not as black and white as some are making it out to be.</FONT></P> <P>The Strength line only requires 16 points... 4,4,8. You have plenty of points to ALSO get one of the proc's AND the crit chance increase. Really, your choices are down to which proc you are giving up for the unarmed attack.</P> <P>Basically... is unarmed so much better with the Strength line that it can do better than a weapon that has an additional aa proc?</P><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:26 PM</span>

[Gungo]

You are completely correct raidi in raids it was possible w procs to get 1200-1500 dps. Outside raids procs offered very little % of your total DPS. That was the reason why they nerfed procs and double atk, becuase the massive swings in DPS. Not only because of brawlers but a few other classes who could obtain a high doubel atk.

[Quicksilver74]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bewts wrote:<BR>You all realize that procs account for less than 10% of your total DPS?  DR on your weapon and how fast you swing it (called auto attack) accounts for 60% of your total DPS and your combat arts account for another 30-35% of your DPS.<BR><BR>They are only tinkering with the SMALLEST contributor to brawler DPS.  I wouldn't go respec'ing over this change if your goal was max DPS.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sorry bro.... I'll have to call BS on that......    MOST of my damage if from procs.   by MOST I mean more than 50%.  </P> <P>It is not uncommon on a single swing of my stick (flapping wing staff) to hit, then proc roughhousing, Crane Twirl, 3 hits from the planar earring(forget the name), and either an engulf or the flapping wing proc.   not to mention everyone who has Mantis Bolt.... (Which is a very very high parsing proc at rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.   I often have over 2000 points of damage proc from a single hit.... though this is not the norm it is certainly not uncommon.  More commonly I will have one proc every other swing, with about 25% of those swings having 2 or more procs.  </P> <P> </P> <P>    and yes, I use roughhousing while in a dps position on raids.......    I'm evil like that.  </P>

[tupercent]

<DIV>There are alot of things in this thread that are such crap and not even close to reality will just stick to these two tho...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-1200-1500 dps every fight on raids (hey if your dropping 1500dps on a win boss mob fight post it)  ... come on dude unless you build the group around me that isn't gonna happen.  Besides if your dropping 1500 every fight your grabbing agro and fd time off.</DIV> <DIV>-Bewts run a parse grown-ups are talking.  Your percentages are just not even close.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crabbok and I are both in the same great guild and we are both huge number guys.  We role thru millions of damage parses and are lucky to have another bruiser diff spec to compare to.  I remember when we first decided to take our M2 choices.  I went with rumble he took 100.  On paper both arts seem like equal choices...guess what the games not played on paper</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Proh 70 Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>The Bazaar Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tupercent wrote:<BR> <DIV>There are alot of things in this thread that are such crap and not even close to reality will just stick to these two tho...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-1200-1500 dps every fight on raids (hey if your dropping 1500dps on a win boss mob fight post it)  ... come on dude unless you build the group around me that isn't gonna happen.  Besides if your dropping 1500 every fight your grabbing agro and fd time off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>Do You really want me to post a bruiser doing 1200+Dps on raids, because its not that hard when you have a group to take advantage of applied procs. Its not liek getting over 1k is some impossible number. I never said it happened every fight, but it does happen. And no this is not just on 30 sec fights this is possible on 1-2min fights. Posting parses like that just add fuel to the fire, because people don't realize all that is happening. Its not just the brawler that does that DPS but its the groups build around him. This is why raid DPS parses are poor representations of class comparison. SoE has already said they have parses everyday of all classes and thier group/buff settings. They can tell how much Dps any class does in any given situation. Which is the reason why they saw certain classes like brawler, warriors, rogues do incredible Dps when procs were taken advantage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Bewts]

Here's your parses bud: <img src="http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i255/Spendo02/AoA1.jpg"> <img src="http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i255/Spendo02/AoASanctum.jpg"> <img src="http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i255/Spendo02/AoAMichael.jpg"> <img src="http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i255/Spendo02/AoACroaker.jpg"> <div></div>

[Bewts]

<div></div>Thats 2 1/2 hours of killing x2 and some x4 blue con content in AoA.  Thats millions of damage inflicted, thousands of swings.  A large enough number to show that my claim that 60% of your total DPS inflicted is in fact true. Croaker is the best equipped of the 3 of us as a 70 monk, he WAS 4/4/8 STR STA INT but has recently respec'd due to the proc change.  He spent his time in middle/defensive as he was paired with the MT for the high avoidance buff.  His group setup was 3 healers, a Guardian, a Dirge and himself I am the worse equipped of the 3 of us, but still a 70 monk and  fully DPS master'd and I am 8/5/4/8 STA 4/4/8/8 INT using Katar of the Four Winds and Soulspur.  I was in the DPS group the majority of the time, spending my time nearly entirely in offensive.  I forget the exact setup, but I did have an inquisitor mod to keep me at 100 haste 60% DPS consistently. Michael is the 70 bruiser, hes in the high 40's in AA and went the WIS/INT line.  He uses the flapping wing 2hb and has been facing issues of drawing aggro from spiking damage in the DPS group hence why I was there instead.  Hes got a few items over me in regards to gear and isn't fully master'd. So now that you threw the gauntlet, SHOW me your parses where you parse significantly higher in regards to procs in your total DPS.  Not just one fight please because you could have gotten lucky. From what I see, MOST procs(Blade Chime seems to be an exception) don't even add 1% to the total DPS of any of us with the exception of Mantis Bolt for Croaker and I with 9% and 3% for me, and Crane Twirl gave Michael 3%. Oh, and of course this is pre-nerf the proc change so Croaker's procs might be slightly skewed due to the STR AA setup.  I suspect Mantis Bolt will be more around the 3-4% mark for Croaker if he uses the STR line POST the proc nerf. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Bewts on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 PM</span>

[Gungo]

I don't believe you were responding to me since i haven't disagreed with you really. I think you were tlakign to raidi. I do agree procs are generally the smallest part of our dps especially in solo and groups. Which is why i said this change is not as bad as people think for the str aa line. But the parses you provided don't show why the devs changed the double atk proc rate. The only person in that parse who had double atk (str AA line) was in def stance in the MT group w little to no applied procs. I cna assure you its a bi more then 10% in raids when a brawler is 100%  hasted w 96% double atk and several applied procs such as conjurors and assasins etc etc. Pure DPS is static when your Str and DPS % is capped and all master spells. Proc on the other hand increase in total % the more that are applied. Moreso when doubel atk effectively doubles the amount of procs. The point was it was becoming abused by people who knew what to min max. a class would get 2x the benefit of placing a proc on a class w 100% double atk then he would w a class w/o. That was partly the reason this was changed. but i utimately agree with you all this change has little impact on the majoirty of brawlers (cept the few that knew how to parse 1200+DPS on raids) 

[Bewts]

<P>It was for Proh and Quicksilver, whoever they may be.  One called BS, claiming 50% of their DPS came from procs.  The other told me to be quiet, go parse because grown ups were talking.  I compiled a response to show that procs are intended to be at most 10% of your total DPS in a proc heavy group, that the majority of brawler DPS comes from the weapons they use and that approximately 1/4 to 1/3 of our DPS comes from our combat arts. </P> <P>I just find it funny that even in defensive and I think MOSTLY in middle stance Croaker still parsed over 600 DPS.  I can't prove what stance he was in, but I'm pretty sure that knowing my guildmate he spent a lot of time in middle over defensive.</P> <P>I do agree procs were being abused with double attack, I think people could lay claim they were getting upwards of MAYBE 20% of their total DPS from procs in a proc heavy group.  People who took advantage of that, I'd like to see some parses on it that are more than one fight versus one epic mob.  I am not trying to say this nerf means nothing, but I am trying to show that STR line is indeed a great substitute for all but 9 known weapons and that the change to the procs doesn't warrant a respec.  Essentially the sky IS NOT falling for brawler DPS with this change.</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Yeah, I wasn't really agreeing or disagreeing with the whole proc thing... I was jut posting about the whole Strength line validity.</P> <P> </P> <P>Redoing the numbers with a t8 weapon in mind (assuming in the 55 DR range), we're looking at around 130 DR for the Strength Line at lvl 70. That's IF unarmed become t8 weapons at 70.</P> <P>However, for straight up damage, it still might not be worth doing. You'd have to give up either 24% proc single target, or 8% proc aoe, or 22.4% Crit chance. Those procs will each generate quite a bit more damage that carries over to when you use Combat Arts too... double attack and +DPS ONLY works for autoattack, so even a few DR higher than fabled won't outdamage them if they've got an extra proc going on.</P> <P> </P> <P>Did a quick check, and 8 ranks in each of those procs are similar to adding over 25 DR... Strength line has a LOT of ground to cover to make it viable. Alone, the Strength line might look good.. but when you take into account you have limited points, and other damage abilities, it loses it's appeal.</P>

[tupercent]

<P>Bewt- Sorry I misunderstood that you specified casual group when you mentioned proc damage only being 10 percent of our total.  Raid damage it's alot higher as we know and for me thats what matters.  One thing i really liked is how you showed a nice sample of dps the same types of mobs over a few hours.  I am still waiting for this bruiser 1500 dps parse over a good sample like bewt posted.  I dunno what group makeup is getting this cuz we have loaded up dps raid groups with illus/inq/assasin/zerk/dirge and me and i can not maintain 1500 dps for a nites raid.</P> <P> </P> <P>Proh 70 Bruiser</P> <P>The Bazaar Server</P>

[Gungo]

No one said 1500 was a maintained dps it was mroe a max dps point which i have not seen only heard i have seen a monk do 1400dps in ~1-1.5min fight. As me nor flame (bruisers) decided to go unarmed. But forseeably w knockout combo master 1 i can see a bruiser getting clsoe to those figures. ATM using knockout combo master 1 on raids i can almost garantee myself pulling agro spamming combat arts to take advantage of the 20 secs of dam procs. So i do not need the added dps w/o the extra hp/def of str aa line.

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV>Crab, I believe it must be on.. cause thats what happens after you get served. :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or, at least, thats what Southpark told me..  :smileywink:</DIV><p>Message Edited by MakhailSammael on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>MakhailSammael wrote:<div></div> <div>Crab, I believe it must be on.. cause thats what happens after you get served. :smileytongue:</div> <div> </div> <div>Or, at least, thats what Southpark told me..  :smileywink:</div><p>Message Edited by MakhailSammael on <span class="date_text">05-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:00 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Its not on after the initial serve. But because crab served up someone and then that person issued a serve back than officially that means "its on". So i guess this means that we all meet at the rec club this saturday and watch crab dance?<div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PhozFate wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote:<BR> <DIV>Crab, I believe it must be on.. cause thats what happens after you get served. :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or, at least, thats what Southpark told me..  :smileywink:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by MakhailSammael on <SPAN class=date_text>05-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:00 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its not on after the initial serve. But because crab served up someone and then that person issued a serve back than officially that means "its on". So i guess this means that we all meet at the rec club this saturday and watch crab dance?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Can I dance too??   I wanna serve someone!</P> <P> </P> <P>I suck at serving people on the forums though <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>