AA: what would you do for max dps

[host1l31]

I just want to start by saying that Im having a hard time deciding what AA path to go. I want to pump out as much dps as possible. Im currently a 65 bruiser on nagafen and have gotten quite a few weapons lately. I have the grizzle staff, hammer of formation and ravasect schredder. I've tried the stamina line but wasnt too impressed. The crit talent in the int line will be hard to give up but im open to any recommendations. <div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<P>I went Sta, Wis, and Int 4/4/8. I do generally around 800 DPS-1200 DPS on raids with this set up. (The number of course varies with group setup and type of mob or mobs you are fighting.)</P> <P>There are a couple good threads on this forum that are quite long and in depth I would suggest you to read.</P>

[host1l31]

<blockquote><hr>MakhailSammael wrote:<div></div> <p>I went Sta, Wis, and Int 4/4/8. I do generally around 800 DPS-1200 DPS on raids with this set up. (The number of course varies with group setup and type of mob or mobs you are fighting.)</p> <p>There are a couple good threads on this forum that are quite long and in depth I would suggest you to read.</p><hr></blockquote>What kind of weapons are you using. Ive read a bunch of those threads but never quite figured out what yeilds the best dps. Is it bare fist, DW or 2h?<div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV>After extensive parsing, I have found that for myself a procing 2Hander with a 108+ dmg rating yields me the best results. See the staff of the flapping wing or something like that.</DIV>

[host1l31]

Thanks, Do you think the best order to fill them is INT>STA>WIS. <div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

That was the order I went in, though the "best" order is more of a personal preference I believe.

[Dfoley3]

i used bare fists till i got the staff of the flapping wing myself. Things to note:If u get the sta, wis, int , they arent normalized with double attack, so adding 8 double atk with those 2 procs or the crit will add quite a bit of dps.Currently this means: Str 4/4/8 then (sta 4/4/8 or wis4/4/<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and finaly int 4/4/8 is probably the best dps combo atm. This also relies on buged mechanics so i strayed away from it and decided its not best to invest aa into a line that will be fixed so an 8% proc rate doesnt double itself and so 22% proc becoms 44%. I personaly went int 4/4/8 for crits then got the final int ability. Then i went and got 4/4/8 in the wis line. This is strictly becaue i use staff of the flaping wing, and with self dots i can keep myself at 30% hp pretty reliably. I die a bit more then i like doing this, but seeing those parses in the 1400 range are well worth it. When i get the 63 dr twin calamities, as well as my claymore fist, ill switch to the two procs, and crits.

[host1l31]

<blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:i used bare fists till i got the staff of the flapping wing myself. Things to note:If u get the sta, wis, int , they arent normalized with double attack, so adding 8 double atk with those 2 procs or the crit will add quite a bit of dps.Currently this means: Str 4/4/8 then (sta 4/4/8 or wis4/4/<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and finaly int 4/4/8 is probably the best dps combo atm. This also relies on buged mechanics so i strayed away from it and decided its not best to invest aa into a line that will be fixed so an 8% proc rate doesnt double itself and so 22% proc becoms 44%. I personaly went int 4/4/8 for crits then got the final int ability. Then i went and got 4/4/8 in the wis line. This is strictly becaue i use staff of the flaping wing, and with self dots i can keep myself at 30% hp pretty reliably. I die a bit more then i like doing this, but seeing those parses in the 1400 range are well worth it. When i get the 63 dr twin calamities, as well as my claymore fist, ill switch to the two procs, and crits.<hr></blockquote>To be honest Im not sure how monk/bruiser AAs vary. I would assume that you benefit more from barefist then bruisers do but of course im just assuming. Off topic but where does the claymore series start?<div></div>

[tupercent]

<P>I personally prefer the bare fisted/proc build.  I raid daily with another well equipped bruiser who is 2h build and the parses pretty much come down to aoe mobs he is top, single target I am.  End of the night parses work out to about even just comes down to who is slacking more or has a bit better group buff setup.</P> <P> </P> <P>Proh 70 Bruiser</P> <P>The Bazaar Server</P>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tupercent wrote:<BR> <P>I personally prefer the bare fisted/proc build.  I raid daily with another well equipped bruiser who is 2h build and the parses pretty much come down to aoe mobs he is top, single target I am.  End of the night parses work out to about even just comes down to who is slacking more or has a bit better group buff setup.</P> <P> </P> <P>Proh 70 Bruiser</P> <P>The Bazaar Server</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The difference is with him being able to use weapons he can get his power pull higher (+regen), his HP's higher, or his resists higher by improving his stats where you cannot. So, it would make sense since the parses are pretty equal either way to go with the 2HD.

[PhozFa]

Hey another thread about DPS AAs, here goes some other ones i found without really looking <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=16139" target=_blank> Whats the best AA options for DPS Bruiser?</a> <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=16128" target=_blank>Bruiser DPS and Achievements</a> <div></div>

[Owa]

<P><FONT size=4>Slightly off topic - but can you gentlemen recommend a good parser? I used to use CombatStats but accidentally deleted the programme and can't seem to find another download.</FONT></P> <P>OTBBFIPCPS1987</P>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV>Combat Assistant Tracker (CAT I blieve its called. At work so don't have it in front of me.) is awesome. Blows the combatstats out of the water. It provides graphs for tracking and a ton of other goodies.</DIV>

[tupercent]

<P>While true I do lose stats from not using weapons I will take the trade off to do more dps to the boss mob.  While it sure is fun to see your name near the top as the every fight parse spams away during raids but single target dps is of a much higher quality then aoe imho.</P> <P> </P> <P>Proh 70 Bruiser</P> <P>The Bazaar Server</P>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tupercent wrote:<BR> <P>While true I do lose stats from not using weapons I will take the trade off to do more dps to the boss mob.  While it sure is fun to see your name near the top as the every fight parse spams away during raids but single target dps is of a much higher quality then aoe imho.</P> <P> </P> <P>Proh 70 Bruiser</P> <P>The Bazaar Server</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I, for one, prefer the survivalbility of having more HP's and resists as most single target named are going to have an AOS of some sort. Wisdom and Stamina FTW. Plus, I generally have to hold back a little (especially with Knockout Combination) that if I put out too much DPS I will pull agro. I guess its all personal flavor. I raid with another Bruiser and Monk and we all generally parse about the same (because going any higher gets you agro and we have no agro reducers like the scouts) so I personally like the stats. The Monk uses the strength line and has to lay off his CA's a bit, so to me I would think HP, resist, and mana regen would be the smarter of the ways to go.</P> <P>Just my 2cp.</P>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tupercent wrote:<BR> <P>I personally prefer the bare fisted/proc build.  I raid daily with another well equipped bruiser who is 2h build and the parses pretty much come down to aoe mobs he is top, single target I am.  End of the night parses work out to about even just comes down to who is slacking more or has a bit better group buff setup.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And that's really how it is meant to work.</P> <P>Achievements deliberately don't make it obvious to pick a single "best" combo; such a system limits choices rather than encourages them. What you pick to maximize your DPS depends a lot on your playstyle, as well as what weapon you have access to. Some paths favor single-target abilities, so consider those if you find yourself in those kinds of fights most of the time. Players who fight a lot of multi-mob encounters may get more benefit from the AoE abilities.</P> <P>If you obtain a fabled weapon of a given type, you may see the greatest benefit by selecting the Achievement path tied to that weapon. Getting a different kind of weapon may be reason enough to redistribute your points to emphasize another line.</P> <P>Finally, pick a path that you like rather than something you feel you have to take for a given reason. I have a nice 2H weapon and I love doing huge damage to groups of mobs, so I think the WIS brawler line is really fun. But once I get more points I will be trying out some of the other lines as well.</P>

[Owa]

<DIV><FONT size=4>Or, if you're like me and always strapped for cash, go STR - it's cheap!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OTBBFIPCPS1987</DIV>

[host1l31]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> tupercent wrote: <div></div> <p>I personally prefer the bare fisted/proc build.  I raid daily with another well equipped bruiser who is 2h build and the parses pretty much come down to aoe mobs he is top, single target I am.  End of the night parses work out to about even just comes down to who is slacking more or has a bit better group buff setup.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>And that's really how it is meant to work.</p> <p>Achievements deliberately don't make it obvious to pick a single "best" combo; such a system limits choices rather than encourages them. What you pick to maximize your DPS depends a lot on your playstyle, as well as what weapon you have access to. Some paths favor single-target abilities, so consider those if you find yourself in those kinds of fights most of the time. Players who fight a lot of multi-mob encounters may get more benefit from the AoE abilities.</p> <p>If you obtain a fabled weapon of a given type, you may see the greatest benefit by selecting the Achievement path tied to that weapon. Getting a different kind of weapon may be reason enough to redistribute your points to emphasize another line.</p> <p>Finally, pick a path that you like rather than something you feel you have to take for a given reason. I have a nice 2H weapon and I love doing huge damage to groups of mobs, so I think the WIS brawler line is really fun. But once I get more points I will be trying out some of the other lines as well.</p><hr></blockquote>A little off subject but i think it fits in. Currently bruisers offensive stance is somewhat lackluster since procs were adjusted. Is there any plan on making this stance viable again?<div></div>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<P>Biggest advantage for going strength line for casual bruiser is that you don't even spend a cent to improve your dps from meleeing. You never ever need to worry about non-stop weapon upgrades as you level up. </P> <P>I play alt from lvl 1 to 36 (now) and I never touched a weapon and loving it. And it sure saves my money and peace of mind for not worrying about what "best" weapon to upgrade etc. Just hack away and level up and up cuz your barefist always scales up with you. I cannot go raid cuz of my very small guild so str line benefits me greatly. Can use money to focus on upgrading CA and armor instead of weapons.. That's a nice freedom. Casual bruiser going strength line could rival to bruiser raider going other AA path.. </P> <P>In short, word of wise for any casual gamers.. Choose strength line for monk/bruiser. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Nocifer Deathblade on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:02 PM</span>

[argsix]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> tupercent wrote: <div></div> <p>I personally prefer the bare fisted/proc build.  I raid daily with another well equipped bruiser who is 2h build and the parses pretty much come down to aoe mobs he is top, single target I am.  End of the night parses work out to about even just comes down to who is slacking more or has a bit better group buff setup.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>And that's really how it is meant to work.</p> <p>Achievements deliberately don't make it obvious to pick a single "best" combo; such a system limits choices rather than encourages them. What you pick to maximize your DPS depends a lot on your playstyle, as well as what weapon you have access to. Some paths favor single-target abilities, so consider those if you find yourself in those kinds of fights most of the time. Players who fight a lot of multi-mob encounters may get more benefit from the AoE abilities.</p> <p>If you obtain a fabled weapon of a given type, you may see the greatest benefit by selecting the Achievement path tied to that weapon. Getting a different kind of weapon may be reason enough to redistribute your points to emphasize another line.</p> <p>Finally, pick a path that you like rather than something you feel you have to take for a given reason. I have a nice 2H weapon and I love doing huge damage to groups of mobs, so I think the WIS brawler line is really fun. But once I get more points I will be trying out some of the other lines as well.</p><hr></blockquote>WAY OFF SUBJECT HERE: I am very happy that for brawlers this has worked out so perfectly but for shaman it is completly untrue.  All of our AA's are tied to a pet that has very little hitpoints and dies to any t7 AE (raid or otherwise)  making most AA's not practical.  This forces us tward the str line so that we must consume 24 AA points to give our pets a chance to survive the AE's.   (and even then it is not a true dodge, many AE's still hit it just fine with the buff up, but thats a different issue) Back to the point.  Our other line that looks good is the final INT AA.  This one removes all benificial buffs on a mob and deals 150% of my pets health to the target while sacrificing the pet.  Another case of sounds good, and looks to be fairly well balanced with the STR line.  One keeps the pet alive, one sac's the pet for some benifit.  Unfortunatly the only raid mob in t7 I have seen so far with a buff to remove is the outcast. Whats my point?  SOE has done a great job on some classes hitting the nail right on the head for balancing AA's so that one path isn't overall better than another so they can have a choice.  However on the shaman AA's the structure has forced us to take the str line and not even consider the int. EDIT: Ooopsie, my bad... did not realize this thread was in bruiser forums.  Ignore me, I only was responding to a thread on dev tracerk... sorry for hijacking a bruiser thread. <div></div><p>Message Edited by argsix on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> tupercent wrote: <div></div> <p>I personally prefer the bare fisted/proc build.  I raid daily with another well equipped bruiser who is 2h build and the parses pretty much come down to aoe mobs he is top, single target I am.  End of the night parses work out to about even just comes down to who is slacking more or has a bit better group buff setup.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>And that's really how it is meant to work.</p> <p>Achievements deliberately don't make it obvious to pick a single "best" combo; such a system limits choices rather than encourages them. What you pick to maximize your DPS depends a lot on your playstyle, as well as what weapon you have access to. Some paths favor single-target abilities, so consider those if you find yourself in those kinds of fights most of the time. Players who fight a lot of multi-mob encounters may get more benefit from the AoE abilities.</p> <p>If you obtain a fabled weapon of a given type, you may see the greatest benefit by selecting the Achievement path tied to that weapon. Getting a different kind of weapon may be reason enough to redistribute your points to emphasize another line.</p> <p>Finally, pick a path that you like rather than something you feel you have to take for a given reason. I have a nice 2H weapon and I love doing huge damage to groups of mobs, so I think the WIS brawler line is really fun. But once I get more points I will be trying out some of the other lines as well.</p><hr></blockquote>You mention maxing our dps our dps with AAs. I understand we are supposed to be offensive but isn't our primary role supposed to be a tank? We already have other classes whinning we do too much dps and more then we are supposed to. I just find that there is few abilities that help us fill our primary role except eagle shriek, HP increase, and some of the avoidance ones<div></div>

[selch]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PhozFate wrote:<BR>You mention maxing our dps our dps with AAs. I understand we are supposed to be offensive but isn't our primary role supposed to be a tank? We already have other classes whinning we do too much dps and more then we are supposed to. I just find that there is few abilities that help us fill our primary role except eagle shriek, HP increase, and some of the avoidance ones<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That's also question in my mind  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, those whining classes about our DPS, whined for our mitigation AA's before they are replaced, so they kind of wanted us to go upper on DPS parsers.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Sanamien]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div><p><font size="4">Slightly off topic - but can you gentlemen recommend a good parser? I used to use CombatStats but accidentally deleted the programme and can't seem to find another download.</font></p><p>OTBBFIPCPS1987</p><hr></blockquote><a target="_blank" href="http://home.maine.rr.com/eqaditu/ACT/">Advanced Combat Tracker</a>The best there is atm imo</div>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sanamien wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=4>Slightly off topic - but can you gentlemen recommend a good parser? I used to use CombatStats but accidentally deleted the programme and can't seem to find another download.</FONT></P> <P>OTBBFIPCPS1987</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><A href="http://home.maine.rr.com/eqaditu/ACT/" target=_blank>Advanced Combat Tracker</A><BR><BR>The best there is atm imo<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT size=4>Thanks for both the initial tip, and, because I couldn't find the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing download anywhere, the actual link. NOW we'll see what this STR AA thing is all about, dammit!</FONT></P> <P>OTBBFIPCPS1987</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tupercent wrote:<BR> <P>I personally prefer the bare fisted/proc build.  I raid daily with another well equipped bruiser who is 2h build and the parses pretty much come down to aoe mobs he is top, single target I am.  End of the night parses work out to about even just comes down to who is slacking more or has a bit better group buff setup.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And that's really how it is meant to work.</P> <P>Achievements deliberately don't make it obvious to pick a single "best" combo; such a system limits choices rather than encourages them. What you pick to maximize your DPS depends a lot on your playstyle, as well as what weapon you have access to. Some paths favor single-target abilities, so consider those if you find yourself in those kinds of fights most of the time. Players who fight a lot of multi-mob encounters may get more benefit from the AoE abilities.</P> <P>If you obtain a fabled weapon of a given type, you may see the greatest benefit by selecting the Achievement path tied to that weapon. Getting a different kind of weapon may be reason enough to redistribute your points to emphasize another line.</P> <P>Finally, pick a path that you like rather than something you feel you have to take for a given reason. I have a nice 2H weapon and I love doing huge damage to groups of mobs, so I think the WIS brawler line is really fun. But once I get more points I will be trying out some of the other lines as well.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I love the WIS line to got it maxed now and it kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] !! having more AOE helps bigtime when tanking

[QQ-Fatman]

Anyone tried the final skill of wis line? Though it has a 5 mins recast timer, it still looks very nice to me (Sometimes I solo heroic nameds and I think this burst dps will help in this situation.) I got my int line 4-4-8 and wis line 4-4-2 now (I have 27 points now.) Im thinking if I should finish wis line instead of sta line 4-4-8.

[Maelwy]

<DIV>I tank with my bruiser too much to do it, but 448 in stam, wis and int looked like the way to go for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>leaves you versatile with 2 weapon choices, and you only lose one ability when you switch weapons.  But you gain the maximum proc on 2 procs, and 22% crit damage rates.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd really love to see how it compares with the str line people.  </DIV>

[Cyngii]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> Anyone tried the final skill of wis line? Though it has a 5 mins recast timer, it still looks very nice to me (Sometimes I solo heroic nameds and I think this burst dps will help in this situation.) I got my int line 4-4-8 and wis line 4-4-2 now (I have 27 points now.) Im thinking if I should finish wis line instead of sta line 4-4-8.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The final ability of the WIS line is without a doubt the single most damaging achievement ability available to brawlers... but only for 16 seconds.  Now the problem with it is unless you are tanking, you soon will be.  It generates so much agro that if you use it on a raid chances are you're going to pull agro from the main tank.  If you're fighting a single target and you wait til the end to burn a mob down you'll most likely be ok, but on encounters with multiple MOBS you will pull some.  I usually find myself having to feign death before the full 16s is up honestly.</P> <P>Not only does it work well for finishing off MOBs, it works great as a crowd control tool.  If you happen to get a couple adds, this ability works great for keeping all encounters locked on you. </P> <P>Both myself and a bruiser buddy of mine in guild both have this ability, and it's fun and useful for both monk and bruisers.  He uses it with his Twin Calamities combo which works well for him... I use it with a 2h with 4-4-8 INT which works well for me.  I would recommend to check it out if have a few more AP respecs available without coughing up plat... especially with the proc changes coming which will effect the STR line quite a bit.  I have to warn you though... it's kind of like having NOS on your car.  You only get to use it for short bursts, you always look forward to using it again, and abuse will get you offed. </P> <P>Cheers</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Cyngii on <span class=date_text>05-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:10 PM</span>

[Gungo]

I tank alot as well and decided i didn't want to waste points and that the stun from eagle strike is to good to give up. So i went 4/4/8/8 sta and int. This combo leaves no waste i pull with my stamina debuff, have another stun atk for 2.6 secs (only requires 1 fist type wpn in primary), and gives me alot fo parry (more riposte) and deflection. This was the best combo for tank / dps i could find w max crits and max procs. Also the wis line aoe proc does break mezz  :smileysad. I did however wanted to know if the final wis line ability would be good for dps or the final int line would be good for tanking (i would only need to drop 4 deflection and 4 parry.for the int final ability). But i decided against it maybe when i finish my last 10 aa's i will respec to see.

[Beyond-Postal20]

I have a quick question on Crane Flock, it says "Caster will double attack on 100% of attacks" does this include our combat arts? can we use "Dropkick" or any other combat art... Will it attack twice? or does it effect our auto-attack only?<p>Message Edited by Beyond-Postal2049 on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beyond-Postal2049 wrote:<BR> I have a quick question on Crane Flock, it says "Caster will double attack on 100% of attacks" does this include our combat arts? can we use "Dropkick" or any other combat art... Will it attack twice? or does it effect our auto-attack only? <P>Message Edited by Beyond-Postal2049 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>double attack = double auto attack<BR>

[Owa]

<P><FONT size=3>I would say that until you have a lot of AA points and some very good weapons then STR is the way to go. I have only 18 AA points so far but they are all in STR and I consistently outdamage Bruisers in my guild 4-6 levels higher than me who use other AA lines.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3> I know that this may not be pertinent to the OP who is lvl 65 and has access to new gear and more AA points - but for lower level Bruisers who are reading this thread, STR is an easy, fast  and cheap way to max your DPS - not least because with the money you save on weapons can be spent on upgrading your spells and gear.</FONT></P>

[deathtoyou5]

I got 4-4-8 on all but strength line. stam- wis- int- agi

[Hoppy6698]

<p>This thread desperately needs an update from ROK info - 70 AAs to each tree.</p><p>My current DPS build:</p><p>AGI - 4-6-8-6-2 (Altruism FD)</p><p>WIS - 4-4-8-6-2 (Crane Flock)</p><p>INT - 4-4-8 (Max Crits)</p><p>STR - 3</p><p>EOF:</p><p>Max far Right side - Kick, Punch, Uppercut, Knockout, 1 to stun, max Rear hit - Drag</p><p>Far Left side - Heals, Armor, Stone deaf, Immunities - 1 to Riposte</p><p>Second from Right - 3 to FD, Max Shiftiness, Random Points to fill tree to get end line Control Hate.</p><p>With an AA mirror, its not an issue to have this as a DPS build, since I can flip to tanky build any time after a Raid, etc.</p><p>On weapons, Currently using the Sampan Staff from Terens Grasp quest (kill name at bottom of Kunars Castle).  For tanking, I switch to Deklium Cudgel and the Holy Hammer with 25 Haste (name escapes me).</p><p>On the last raid, my zone parse was a measly 1600 (working on it, no adornments, etc), but encounters would get as high as 3k for groups where I could use Crane Flock and such.</p>