Last Breath

[Teaen Arcarius]

<DIV>I have yet to see a Last Breath adept or app skill on the brokers.   Is it still in game?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if it is, what is the percent chance of FD of the Adept 1 versus the Adept 3?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>T</DIV>

[Vorham]

adept 3 is 98% chance to succeed... fails are infrequent. id imagine adept 1 is similar to master 1 stilled life, seems like most T7 arts are scaled like that... so figure a 96ish% chance to succeed<p>Message Edited by Vorham on <span class=date_text>04-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:27 AM</span>

[Gaige]

I'm 99.92% sure that Last Breat adept 1 and master 1 were removed from the game and the adept 3 was left in by accident.

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> I'm 99.92% sure that Last Breat adept 1 and master 1 were removed from the game and the adept 3 was left in by accident.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm 99.93% your wrong. :smileytongue:

[Gravve]

<DIV>Highest I've seen on our server is Last Breath App IV .  I'm not saying it doesnt exsist i'm sure that somewhere out there it might .  App IV is 96% chance to succeed btw .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[kingfish]

As I understood it, our feign and heal where no longer going to be upgraded due to the fact that they are based off of percentages. You come to a certain point where you could no longer upgrade these abilities because eventually you would be at a 100% which I am sure SOE wants to avoid. If for some reason our feign upgrade is still in game, which i can't see how it could be much better than last tiers, It doesn't really validate the reason our heal was not upgraded as well.

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>I'm 99.92% sure that Last Breat adept 1 and master 1 were removed from the game and the adept 3 was left in by accident.<hr></blockquote>How would you know this and be so sure? i can't belive i remember reading a dev post saying this (i could be wrong)<div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PhozFate wrote:<BR><BR>How would you know this and be so sure? i can't belive i remember reading a dev post saying this (i could be wrong)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure, I just do.<BR>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> PhozFate wrote:How would you know this and be so sure? i can't belive i remember reading a dev post saying this (i could be wrong) <hr> </blockquote>I'm not sure, I just do.<hr></blockquote>Well who can argue with that reasoning huh? Gaige say its so, so it must be. <span>:smileywink:</span> But anyway i assume this is our last CA in this line just like they cut off the self heal line. After all how much better can you possibly get other than a pure 100% FD or a shorter recast time.... maybe a FD that makes us immune to AEs while on the ground? <div></div>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teaen Arcarius wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have yet to see a Last Breath adept or app skill on the brokers.   Is it still in game?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The current feign and mend lines were not intended to be upgraded any farther. If there is still an Adept III recipe, it is an error that will likely be corrected. I'd advise you not to spend money on such a scroll.

[zabor]

so you are going to remove all last breath spells, even though some already scribed it, not knowing that it was not intended? spongy loam isnt that cheap <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jezekie]

<div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:so you are going to remove all last breath spells, even though some already scribed it, not knowing that it was not intended? spongy loam isnt that cheap <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Both Gaige and my self, as well as others, said during Beta that the Last Breath spell wasn't intentional and that the line wasn't upgraded any further behind the T6 FD, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.</div>

[Jhoric]

SoE has a huge history of never doing anything retroactive ever. I want my rare as heck spongy loam back please! Thanks. And please look into Stilled Life, which is a crock of bull. Says 94% at Adept 3 but fails about 20% of the time.

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teaen Arcarius wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have yet to see a Last Breath adept or app skill on the brokers.   Is it still in game?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The current feign and mend lines were not intended to be upgraded any farther. If there is still an Adept III recipe, it is an error that will likely be corrected. I'd advise you not to spend money on such a scroll.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm kinda having difficulties "intended" visions of your Moorguard,  Tsunami for example as an Ancient Teaching was not intended to drop Master's but only crafted, yet you made it so original (Adept III) timer is now Master1 timer and adept III timer is shorter than it is "intended"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't yet understand intentions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>04-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:10 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jhoric wrote:<BR> And please look into Stilled Life, which is a crock of bull. Says 94% at Adept 3 but fails about 20% of the time.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe that's because everytime you FD you have a 6% chance to fail.  Ever think of that?<BR>

[Jhoric]

<DIV>It doesn't fail a total of 20% of the time when I use it throughout a given period. It fails 20% of the time when it is used once. Least for me. IE, not 6% failure rate, but 20%. Sorry if I was unclear, but I figured it didn't need further explanation.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jhoric wrote:<BR> <DIV>It doesn't fail a total of 20% of the time when I use it throughout a given period. It fails 20% of the time when it is used once. Least for me. IE, not 6% failure rate, but 20%. Sorry if I was unclear, but I figured it didn't need further explanation.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Given period = doesn't mean anything.</P> <P>Its a pass/fail check <EM>each time you press the button.</EM></P> <P>There have been numerous posts on this subject.  Everytime you press the button you have a 6% chance to fail.  Everytime.  It doesn't matter if you've FD'd 1000 times, the 1001st time has a 6% chance to fail.<BR></P>

[Jhoric]

<DIV>Yes, so at the ideal rate of 6%, out of 100 uses, it should fail 6 times, theoretically. Out of 1000, 60 times, etc. FD tends to fail far more than this given percentage which makes me believe that there are either other factors like mob level being taken into account which we are told isn't the case (but I don't believe them for a second) or the percentage is just flat out wrong or how it deals this percentage is wrong.</DIV>

[Cragger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jhoric wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes, so at the ideal rate of 6%, out of 100 uses, it should fail 6 times, theoretically. Out of 1000, 60 times, etc. FD tends to fail far more than this given percentage which makes me believe that there are either other factors like mob level being taken into account which we are told isn't the case (but I don't believe them for a second) or the percentage is just flat out wrong or how it deals this percentage is wrong.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Statistics and percentages don't work like that. Toss a coin its 50/50 being heads or tails, but flip it 100,1000,10,000 or even a million times it could land heads every single time. Thats how odds work and people not realizing it is exactly how such a thing say as.. legalized gambling works as a multi billion dollar industry.

[Jhoric]

<DIV>9 out of 10 dentists approve that message. :robottongue:</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jhoric wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes, so at the ideal rate of 6%, out of 100 uses, it should fail 6 times, theoretically.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Wrong.<BR>

[EvilIguana9]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jhoric wrote: <div>Yes, so at the ideal rate of 6%, out of 100 uses, it should fail 6 times, theoretically. <hr> </div></blockquote>Wrong.<hr></blockquote>How is this wrong?  Care to explain your methodology?  Each time you press the button you have a 6% chance to fail.  If you press it 100 times, you should on average fail on 6 of those attempts.  Now it is theoretically possible you could fail on all 100, but the odds are infinitesimally minute.  The more times you try, the more likely you are to experience the theoretical average.  </div>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EvilIguana966 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jhoric wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes, so at the ideal rate of 6%, out of 100 uses, it should fail 6 times, theoretically.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Wrong.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How is this wrong?  Care to explain your methodology?  <BR><BR>Each time you press the button you have a 6% chance to fail.  If you press it 100 times, you should on average fail on 6 of those attempts.  Now it is theoretically possible you could fail on all 100, but the odds are infinitesimally minute.  The more times you try, the more likely you are to experience the theoretical average.  <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What I got it, server rolls from 1 to 100 everytime, if it is over 94, you fail  which must be very little chance but possible. </P> <P> </P>

[Lizardling]

<DIV>"Both Gaige and my self, as well as others, said during Beta that the Last Breath spell wasn't intentional and that the line wasn't upgraded any further behind the T6 FD, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You may have said so, but you have to realize that most people dont go reading every [Removed for Content] post out there. It is a surprise to most people including myself. It kinda sucks for all those who did waste a spongy loam on an adept III of it... I hope something can be done for the mistakes the devs or whoever made, not the players.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lizardling on <span class=date_text>04-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 PM</span>

[EvilIguana9]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lizardling wrote:<div></div> <div>"Both Gaige and my self, as well as others, said during Beta that the Last Breath spell wasn't intentional and that the line wasn't upgraded any further behind the T6 FD, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone."</div> <div> </div> <div>You may have said so, but you have to realize that most people dont go reading every [Removed for Content] post out there. It is a surprise to most people including myself. It kinda sucks for all those who did waste a spongy loam on an adept III of it... I hope something can be done for the mistakes the devs or whoever made, not the players.</div><p>Message Edited by Lizardling on <span class="date_text">04-16-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:35 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Careful there, you might damage Gaige's sense of self importance with the revelation that not everyone devotes day and night to keeping up to date with his sagely wisdom.  </div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EvilIguana966 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Careful there, you might damage Gaige's sense of self importance with the revelation that not everyone devotes day and night to keeping up to date with his sagely wisdom.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>My sense of self importance is reassured everyday.  Unfortunately its from my mom, who tells me I'm her special little boy and not the users of this particular forum.<BR>

[-UGG-Andy]

well,there is gonna be a lot of very dissappointed people if you remove it now,how could you only just notice it was still in there?I never got mine at all,but i really feel for those who did.I thought you guys played all toons,and you did'nt notice that brawlers had an unintended lvl70 skill since KoS release?:smileyindifferent:

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Teaen Arcarius wrote: <div>I have yet to see a Last Breath adept or app skill on the brokers.   Is it still in game?</div> <hr> </blockquote>The current feign and mend lines were not intended to be upgraded any farther. If there is still an Adept III recipe, it is an error that will likely be corrected. I'd advise you not to spend money on such a scroll.<hr></blockquote>Thanks for telling us this 2 months later. It isn't about the wasted spongy loam for me. I just think its funny that noone up untill now realize that there was this spell in game. Just imagine how many diffrent devs it took who worked on this part of the game one way or another. I understand this game isn't going to be bug free. But i think some things are just careless to let go. <div></div>

[Exordus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>My sense of self importance is reassured everyday.  Unfortunately its from my mom, who tells me I'm her special little boy and not the users of this particular forum.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>LMGDAO!!  :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P>~Xordus~</P> <P>41 Monk / The Brotherhood / Everfrost-Grobb<BR></P>

[Crest]

When you guys do get to removing this CA from the game, please remember to get the App 2 version on the Monk trainer in Elddar Grove.  I assume the Bruiser's have one on their trainer as well but I did not verify that.

[Kam]

<DIV>Tsunami now this,... /punches monks in the gut</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thought some devs played monks..</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kamic wrote:<BR> <DIV>Tsunami now this,... /punches monks in the gut</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thought some devs played monks.. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>You thought wrong... one in particular plays a bruiser though.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Dfoley3]

No offense gaige but ur knowledge of statistics is so flawed its sad.If you flip a fair coin 100 times, you should get roughly 50 heads and 50 tails, any deviance from this 50/50 can be tested using a T test to see if the coin is really fair. What you are thinking about is this: If you flip a coin 1000 times, it could land on heads every time if its 100% random. Because 1 1 1 1 is just as random as 1 0 1 0 1 its an individual check at each flip with the result being independant of the previous flip. HOWEVER if a coin is 50% (fair coin) and you get heads 50 times in a row, the ODDS of that happening are 1/2^n, where n is the number of succesive flips that the coin lands on heads.... AKA 1/2^(50) are the odds of geting 50 heads in a row. THE probability of the next flip being heads is always the same, its the ODDS of the next flip being heads that decreases. If you view FD as a fair coin with heads(fail) = 0 and tails (success) = 1. You can easily see that each new flip is independent of the previous. But if you did 1000 flips and got 800 as your score (aka 800 tails). There are statistical tests that you can do to test the probabilty that the coin is truely fair, using the deviance from the expected flips. You can also use a P test to see if the results are significant, or if they can truely be attributd to randomness. With 100, 1000, 10000000, 100000000000 fd trials, the more times you fd the closer the final ratio of success to fail should be to the listed success rate. EG. 96% fd for a 100 fd trial : IT woldnt be unreasonable for 80 success 20 fail1000 fd trial: it wouldnt be unreasonable for an 850 success and 150 failure1000000 trial: it should start drifting more and more towards 93-96%1000000000 trial should be close to the 96% ratio. Once you get into LARGE LARGE number of trials the data should go towards the listed value. The developers have logs of every fd ever made using the skill. Which for them should be well int the realm of 100000000 loged FD and they can see the true values of the success rate of fd.

[Moorgard]

After discussing it with Lockeye, looks like we'll keep the existing Last Breath Adept III in place, though it will change to a 96% success rate. This makes it comparable to the Master I of the previous spell in the line.

[Gungo]

<DIV>Hey how about instead of raising the % just start to add a small in combat HP regen or better yet an aoe immunity. It wouldnt be to overpowered to avoid aoe if you could take no other actions.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hey how about instead of raising the % just start to add a small in combat HP regen or better yet an aoe immunity. It wouldnt be to overpowered to avoid aoe if you could take no other actions. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Um, yes it would.  I'd FD right before every AE and then stand up and beat the snot out of the mob.<BR>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hey how about instead of raising the % just start to add a small in combat HP regen or better yet an aoe immunity. It wouldnt be to overpowered to avoid aoe if you could take no other actions. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Um, yes it would.  I'd FD right before every AE and then stand up and beat the snot out of the mob.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Instead of just running back a couple meters and then running back in? Maybe shave a second or two off your time from jousting. The hard thing is not jousting or dodging an AE, but knowing when it was going to hit. So, if you know you have some time around 5  to 10 seconds before an AOE you can either A: Run out with range attack on actually adding to the raid while you wait for the AOE, or B: FD and add nothing to the raid while you wait for the AOE. Its still all about timing.

[Bucksno]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> I'm 99.92% sure that Last Breat adept 1 and master 1 were removed from the game and the adept 3 was left in by accident.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm 99.93% your wrong. :smileytongue:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Remember this priceless statement Mak? Maybe you need to keep your piehole shut for a bit and reclaim some dignity. :smileytongue:

[Snarks]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gungo wrote: <div>Hey how about instead of raising the % just start to add a small in combat HP regen or better yet an aoe immunity. It wouldnt be to overpowered to avoid aoe if you could take no other actions. <hr> </div></blockquote>Um, yes it would.  I'd FD right before every AE and then stand up and beat the snot out of the mob.<hr></blockquote>I like his idea, but I agree with gaige that it would be unbalanced. So why not make it a % chance at avoiding a non-direct aoe? In combat HP regen makes sense too, both good ideas.<div></div>

[Reposa]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>To address the % chance thing.. If you flip a coin 100x, in a perfect world it would be 50/50 heads/tails, but it surely NEVER is.  Try it.  Hell it has a chance to be 100/0 heads/tails.  Same with FD.  If you FD 100x in a row you can still fail all 100.  Just because it says 94% or whatever, does not mean the % chance to succeed goes up after a fail.. Try 1 you have a 6/100 chance to fail. Try 2 you have a 6/100 chance to fail. Try 3 you have a 6/100 chance to fail. And so on... It is not: Try 1 you have a 6/100 chance to fail. Try 2 you have a 5/99 chance to fail. Try 3 you have a 4/98 chance to fail. It doesn't make it any less likely to happen.  Like I said you can fail 100x in a row if you were very unlucky.. IN ANY EVENT... Stilled Life (Master I) is perfectly fine.  It does not need any kind of regen added, nor any kind of AoE avoid added.  96% chance to life IMO is great, and for all of us Monks out there, if the excrament really hits the fan we can always group FD too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EDIT: P.S. Gaige is not my special little boy, even though I am his daddy.  He's rotten and kicks dogs. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Reposado on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:43 AM</span>

[Dfoley3]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Try 1 you have a 6/100 chance to fail. Try 2 you have a 6/100 chance to fail. Try 3 you have a 6/100 chance to fail. And so on... It is not: Try 1 you have a 6/100 chance to fail. Try 2 you have a 5/99 chance to fail. Try 3 you have a 4/98 chance to fail.>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<This is only partialy true.   Each flip of the coin has the same probability of landing heads vs tails.  So yes try 1 and try 100 each are a 6/100 chance to fail.  HOWEVER, the odds that you will fail 20/100 times are pretty small.    Theres no point in saying 96% if you cant take 100 (or preferably 10,000) trials and not get a success rate of close to 96%.   If a fair coin landed 100/0, you can do a p value test to show that its got a p value of p= 5% or greater, meaning you cant disregard the fact that the coin most likely isnt fair and that your results are more then just bad luck.  <div></div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reposado wrote:<BR> To address the % chance thing.. If you flip a coin 100x, in a perfect world it would be 50/50 heads/tails, but it surely NEVER is.  Try it.  Hell it has a chance to be 100/0 heads/tails.  Same with FD.  If you FD 100x in a row you can still fail all 100.  Just because it says 94% or whatever, does not mean the % chance to succeed goes up after a fail.. <BR><BR>Try 1 you have a 6/100 chance to fail.<BR>Try 2 you have a 6/100 chance to fail.<BR>Try 3 you have a 6/100 chance to fail.<BR>And so on...<BR><BR>It is not:<BR>Try 1 you have a 6/100 chance to fail.<BR>Try 2 you have a 5/99 chance to fail.<BR>Try 3 you have a 4/98 chance to fail.<BR><BR>It doesn't make it any less likely to happen.  Like I said you can fail 100x in a row if you were very unlucky..<BR><BR>IN ANY EVENT... Stilled Life (Master I) is perfectly fine.  It does not need any kind of regen added, nor any kind of AoE avoid added.  96% chance to life IMO is great, and for all of us Monks out there, if the excrament really hits the fan we can always group FD too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>EDIT: P.S. Gaige is not my special little boy, even though I am his daddy.  He's rotten and kicks dogs.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Reposado on <SPAN class=date_text>04-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:43 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>True Stilled life is fine, but i would rather see them continue the line then just stop it. Neither the in combat regen or the aoe immunity is overpowered (although the aoe immunity may be inappropriate to our class) Same with our mend. Which i still think should of been changed from a % to a direct heal which would keep it progressive (although effectively that would be a nerf)

[Dfoley3]

The problem with ae immunity : except when direct. Is that the second you feign death, the mob no longer targets you and thus all ae would be non direct.Im fine with the 96% rate atm, however i think future versions of the spell should reduce the reuse time on fd. 10 sec fd at app 1 and 5 sec at master 1, something along those lines.As for mend, just give them a chance to crit instead of increasing the dmg across the board. AKA 25% mend 0% crit at app 1,..... 37 % mend 8% crit rate master 1. Or even combine mend with the self purges.

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:The problem with ae immunity : except when direct. Is that the second you feign death, the mob no longer targets you and thus all ae would be non direct.<hr></blockquote>yea... but... If the mob has you targeted you better be the main tank. The tank is supposed to be taking the AEs anyway. If you are FD and your the raid's main tank to avoid an AE i would dub you a [Removed for Content]. the point being is this would be helpful when not tanking. Did i miss something cause i don't see the big deal over the fact that nothing will be direct damage while FD?<div></div>

[Cula]

<P>What totally sucks about this is for those of us who had Stilled Life at Master 1... 96%.. then spent a spongy loam to upgrade the T7 one to 98%...... now I may as well have kept the spongy loam and used it on another skill.... but I guess I should check with Gaige first which skill it is to make sure it isn't on the road to being nerfed (i'm not implying gaige is nerfing our abilities, just that he seems to know in advance when they are coming).</P> <P>I'm sick of wasting my ingame plat on stuff... please gimme my money back moorguard!!! Where is the justice in this kinda behavior? t7 rares are not easy to come by or cheap to purchase.... and one last thought here before I stop whining... where in the world did you come up with the idea that someone in t7 should have to upgrade a skill to adept 3 to equal the master of the previous tier? that means that all adept 1's are worthless... hence people walking around with greyed out skills while they hope a master drops for the new skill... i'd spend a rare on getting a skill at adept 3 to make it slightly better than my t6 one (or equal if I had it at master)....but I fear the money would go into the hole mentioned in my first paragraph....</P>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bucksnort wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> I'm 99.92% sure that Last Breat adept 1 and master 1 were removed from the game and the adept 3 was left in by accident.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm 99.93% your wrong. :smileytongue:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Remember this priceless statement Mak? Maybe you need to keep your piehole shut for a bit and reclaim some dignity. :smileytongue:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> My loss of Dignity from this statement can never be reclaimed. I should probably go bury my head in the sand for the shame I have now brought on my guild, my server, and my family. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Luckily enough, I did allow for a .07% error margin, so looks like my dignity is still in tact. YES!</DIV>

[BrainMu]

<P>what I would like to see is an agro reduction attached to further lines of FD, if i accidently pull and FD to give agro back to the MT.  It is annoying when you stand back up and get agro instantly because your threat didn't drop at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>so yeah 96% chance to feign with 500 threat reduction or somehthing along those lines</P>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BrainMuck wrote:<BR> <P>what I would like to see is an agro reduction attached to further lines of FD, if i accidently pull and FD to give agro back to the MT.  It is annoying when you stand back up and get agro instantly because your threat didn't drop at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>so yeah 96% chance to feign with 500 threat reduction or somehthing along those lines</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Also another great idea. Afterall, if something thinks it has killed you and turns away from you to another enemy it has pretty much started to hate you less. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[PhozFa]

I like some of the creative ideas in this thread for our dead CA lines (heal FD). I don't think its right we can't gain anything from these lines as we level. So in other words a lvl 50 bruiser and a possible lvl 100 bruiser would have the same healing power? I hope sony thinks outside the box and gives us improvment other ways than just raising the %. I'm happy with the %s the way they are atm but that still doesn't mean they can't get better <div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>I like the agro reduction idea as well for continuation on fake death line.</P> <P>Maybe they can add a small hp regen to our mend as well. </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BrainMuck wrote:<BR> <P>what I would like to see is an agro reduction attached to further lines of FD, if i accidently pull and FD to give agro back to the MT.  It is annoying when you stand back up and get agro instantly because your threat didn't drop at all. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The brawler classes better not EVER get an aggro reducer.  What we need is ways to generate aggro, not give it away.</P> <P>We aren't scouts.</P>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BrainMuck wrote:<BR> <P>what I would like to see is an agro reduction attached to further lines of FD, if i accidently pull and FD to give agro back to the MT.  It is annoying when you stand back up and get agro instantly because your threat didn't drop at all. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The brawler classes better not EVER get an aggro reducer.  What we need is ways to generate aggro, not give it away.</P> <P>We aren't scouts.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> Whats the difference if they gave us an option to reduce agro? We get the option to increase our DPS to that of a top tier DPS class. We also have the option of taking all avoidance type AA's to make us more viable tanks. There is tanking gear. There is DPS gear. Just because that is not how you envision playing your Brawler does not mean that is how someone else wants to play. And you can give me the tired old line that SOE said "blah blah blah", but SOE has said a ton of things that do not reflect into online play. </P> <P> I have no idea what your problem is with people playing their class the way they want it to be played. If a Brawler wants to give up their ability to tank or hold agro so they can play as a DPS class, what does it matter to you?</P>

[BrainMu]

haha your a funny guy gaige ... the point of the skill is to stop something from beating on you<div></div>

[Dfoley3]

<div></div>no way guys fd is so when we press it and stand back up it works like an uber taunt.   I mean why would you play dead to reduce your agro!  Honestly, FD always should have had a built in agro reducer, on most real raids monks arent tanking, and if we peel (cause all spells and aa that reduce hate have a nifty tag "all non fighters") it be nice to hit fd, drop agro by 720 and stand back up.  I mean the alternative is to fd and stay down for the whole 10 sec and stand up.  IF YOU HONESTLY think brawlers need a way to generate more agro gaige i feel bad for you.  I really really do.  I dont know a bruiser or monk a live who would have any inkling of an issue holding agro.   Want more hate? Group with assassin/swash/coercer/dirge  to name a few.    Its bad enough you started off on the thread stating blatant miss truths because you have no clue about statistics, but dont drag the rest of the brawlers down with your infalted ego.   Brawlers wanna tank?  good they have gear for it, plenty of agro, and finaly mitigation is almost on par with relic gear+.   For the rest of us in real guild who enjoy having plate tanks who can mitigate the hits and brawlers doing dps (maximizeing both classes not just proving a brawler can do something a guard can do) we like dps, we like doing nice and high dps even if it costs us tanking prowess.... why? because if a monk tanks, your forcing plate fighters to dps.....and last i checked my auto atk does more dps then all but berserkers all out dps.   <div></div><p>Message Edited by Dfoley323 on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:42 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR> <BR>IF YOU HONESTLY think brawlers need a way to generate more agro gaige i feel bad for you.  I really really do.  I dont know a bruiser or monk a live who would have any inkling of an issue holding agro.   Want more hate? Group with assassin/swash/coercer/dirge  to name a few.    Its bad enough you started off on the thread stating blatant miss truths because you have no clue about statistics, but dont drag the rest of the brawlers down with your infalted ego. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hey smart guy... I realize the cool thing to do is hate on me for whatever reason but perhaps you'd like to try <EM>reading</EM> my post.</P> <P>You know the one you are ranting about.</P> <P>Read it.</P> <P>I didn't says we need a way to generate more aggro.  We generate enough.</P> <P>So get over it.</P> <P>Oh and as for starting off this thread with a blatant mistruth - I started it by saying I was sure Last Breat was supposed to be removed and the adept 3 was left in by accident - something that Moorgard confirmed, kthxu.</P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:25 PM</span>

[Anjin]

<P>I would personally prefer the Alin's Tranquil Serenade line of Troubador spells to be changed from non fighter, to non warrior/crusader.  In a group scenario, who really cares about getting aggro, we're tanks anyway so even without being in the right stance and being buffed, we're unlikely to be one shotted.  In a raid getting aggro is a tad more lethal so the troub buff would work wonders.</P> <P>For those that argue that we couldn't tank with a troubador, we can always remove the buff.</P> <P>The major problem atm is that our AA lines lean more towards DPS but aren't backed up with any skill within any class skillset to reduce hate (apart from amends)</P> <P>Anjin</P>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Herbster wrote:<div></div> <p>I would personally prefer the Alin's Tranquil Serenade line of Troubador spells to be changed from non fighter, to non warrior/crusader.  In a group scenario, who really cares about getting aggro, we're tanks anyway so even without being in the right stance and being buffed, we're unlikely to be one shotted.  In a raid getting aggro is a tad more lethal so the troub buff would work wonders.</p> <p>For those that argue that we couldn't tank with a troubador, we can always remove the buff.</p> <p>The major problem atm is that our AA lines lean more towards DPS but aren't backed up with any skill within any class skillset to reduce hate (apart from amends)</p> <p>Anjin</p><hr></blockquote>this is going wayyy off topic i appologize but speaking of the trob buff. I think the way it should work is you place it on 1 person and it deagros everyone else besides that person. That way say if a <strike>guardian</strike> SK is tanking with a zerker and bruiser in group. zerker/bruiser can have the effects also. I think it'd seem fair cause the buff is supposed to to help the tank with agro anyway<div></div>

[Anjin]

<P>Hmm, then you're making like a too similar to the Dirge's Hyran's Seething Sonata line.  This gives extra hate gain to a simgle target.</P> <P>Anjin</P>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Herbster wrote:<div></div> <p>Hmm, then you're making like a too similar to the Dirge's Hyran's Seething Sonata line.  This gives extra hate gain to a simgle target.</p> <p>Anjin</p><hr></blockquote>extra gain to a single target and deagro for the group except the target is very diffrent. Actully the only real diffrence between the current troub song and the one i proposed in my last post is that non-tanking fighters would be effected. <div></div>

[Anjin]

<DIV>The outcome to give extra aggro to the tank and reducing the aggro of all bar tank gives the same result - the tank is more likely to have aggro (I accept this is the same with the current troubador spell, but it's a little more refined).  Also, the troubador spell is basically a group buff not a spell that is cast on the designated tank (like the dirges spell)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason I made it specifically brawlers (and hence the simple change to the troubador buff) rather than anyone other than the tank is that the brawler AA options have a DPS bias, unlike those of the fighter and crusader.  Crusaders and Fighters have the choice whether they go for a more dps AA lines and hence should pay the price for getting aggro, brawlers either have DPS and a bit of defence or even better DPS and minimal defence AA options and therefore are gonna get aggro a lot more easily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, if you have a platemail OT in a group this will cause a problem as they're gonna find it hard keeping aggro on adds if they have the hate reducer on them (because they aren't the MT).  With the way the troubador spell works atm, a fighter/crusader OT wouldn't have that problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I'm not sure how your idea would work in a raid scenario where there might not be a tank in the group (i.e. purely DPS group)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anjin</DIV>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Herbster wrote:<div><b>The outcome to give extra aggro to the tank and reducing the aggro of all bar tank gives the same result</b> - the tank is more likely to have aggro (I accept this is the same with the current troubador spell, but it's a little more refined).  Also, the troubador spell is basically a group buff not a spell that is cast on the designated tank (like the dirges spell)</div> <div> </div> <div>The reason I made it specifically brawlers (and hence the simple change to the troubador buff) rather than anyone other than the tank is that the brawler AA options have a DPS bias, unlike those of the fighter and crusader.  Crusaders and Fighters have the choice whether they go for a more dps AA lines and hence should pay the price for getting aggro, brawlers either have DPS and a bit of defence or even better DPS and minimal defence AA options and therefore are gonna get aggro a lot more easily.</div> <div> </div> <div>Finally, if you have a platemail OT in a group this will cause a problem as they're gonna find it hard keeping aggro on adds if they have the hate reducer on them (because they aren't the MT).  With the way the troubador spell works atm, a fighter/crusader OT wouldn't have that problem.</div> <div> </div> <div>Also, I'm not sure how your idea would work in a raid scenario where there might not be a tank in the group (i.e. purely DPS group)</div> <div> </div> <div>Anjin</div><hr></blockquote>Same result per say but not the same... in multi group fights (raids) dirge agro ability means he has to be in the MT group for it to be effective. Troubs can be in the other 3 groups to be effective while a dirge in the other 3 groups isn't effective for agro purposes. also a OT fighter wouldn't be in the MT gorup therefor a troub in his group would make sure hes the one who isn't getting thier agro reduced (if the troub spell worked like i purposed again). In single groups i never use a OT except in rare rare situations. Its easier i think for 1 or 2 healers to focus on 1 person<div></div>

[Anjin]

<P>OK - To avoid confusion. I'm gonna split it up into a raid/single group environment with your troub spell modification.</P> <P>Single group</P> <UL> <LI>Doesn't cater for an OT scenario (and it DOES happen).</LI> <LI>If the tank died, what would happen?</LI></UL> <P>Raid</P> <UL> <LI>As there would be nobody in a dps group that wouldn't want their aggro reduced, how would it work?</LI></UL> <P>In the end, if your solution was to  make it so the troubador didn't have to specify a target not to reduce hate, it ends up being WAY too good and easy to use.  And why should say a berserker who has chosen DPS over defence have no recourse for doing massive ae damage?  At least they have the choice, brawlers don't.</P> <P>Forgive me asking a few questions here, but it's easy to pick on a single sentence of a post and not answer the other elements.</P> <P>Anjin</P>

[CosmicAcidGu]

As posted a few posts above, I'd really love to see a little bit of HP regen on our FD if the success rate gets reduced. Finnster <div></div>

[TheKensaiMast]

<div></div>It would suck if they devs just stopped the masters for improvings for our all brawler heal/FD lines.I am sure they are creative enough to improve them thru other means....I mean why should brawlers be punished for lack of endgame foresight on % progression when other classes get continual improvements on their ability lines?There are lots of solutions out there, the question is though are we just going to have those lines ignored and brawlers just have to suck it up or will something be done?Only time and future expansions will tell the tale.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TheKensaiMaster on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:57 AM</span>

[TheFat]

Just a thought. I've heard a lot of people complain that with the expansions we don't get enough unique spells. We just get upgrades to older spells and it all feels the same. If they're forced to stop upgrading % based spells then that generally means they're going to have to start coming up with new skills to fill in those spots. After all, people aren't gonna' be too happy if they level up and they don't get a new skill or they only get 1 skill per level. They've gotta provide the same level of new abilities per level because that's what the player base has come to expect. So, ok, stop upgrading my FD when it hits 96% effective and give me something new to use the next time that skill would've been due for an upgrade.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheKensaiMaster wrote:<BR> It would suck if they devs just stopped the masters for improvings for our all brawler heal/FD lines. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think it makes sense.</P> <P>All % based spells come to an end eventually or they become 100% and never fail which doesn't real fit into the scheme of a game like this.<BR></P>

[Snarks]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> TheKensaiMaster wrote: <div></div>It would suck if they devs just stopped the masters for improvings for our all brawler heal/FD lines. <hr> </blockquote> <p>I think it makes sense.</p> <p>All % based spells come to an end eventually or they become 100% and never fail which doesn't real fit into the scheme of a game like this.</p><hr></blockquote>I have to agree, there are a few spells in this game that always left me wondering "When will the upgrades end?". Like mystic dps/attack speed debuffs. Feign death, too. These spells should never have been upgradeable, beacuse they are doomed to a cap, eventually. <div></div>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheKensaiMaster wrote:<BR> It would suck if they devs just stopped the masters for improvings for our all brawler heal/FD lines. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think it makes sense.</P> <P>All % based spells come to an end eventually or they become 100% and never fail which doesn't real fit into the scheme of a game like this.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then the higher levels of the lines could perhaps reduce the reuse timer, or the power cost, or have a minimal additional ability or some such.</P> <P>To have a line die seems unlikely since you would theorietically keep improving any skill, and it is also a little bit disappointing. :smileywink:</P>

[TheKensaiMast]

Sorry all perhaps I wasn't clear - I understand things that work on % have to have some limit cap before they reach 100%, however, I think it is unfair to kill a specific line just because of it being based off %.  Yes % does scale with level (and the effects of higher/better stats on equip), however, just stopping a line because of this and not doing anything else isn't balanced.Like others have said, perhaps add other effects or what not to that base effect of what that spell does.  Perhaps the heal lines for brawlers could for example, not only heal a certain % but also have a small HoT or something like that on top of its normal function.  Another thing would be to put a whole new ability/spell line to take its place.Just dropping abilities and saying "well they cannot do this anymore because they will hit the cap" isn't a fair solution I believe.  Like I said, the devs are creative and can come up with something either as an additional effect upon the line that CAN scale up or a new ability/spell line to takes it place.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BrainMuck wrote:<BR> <P>what I would like to see is an agro reduction attached to further lines of FD, if i accidently pull and FD to give agro back to the MT.  It is annoying when you stand back up and get agro instantly because your threat didn't drop at all. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The brawler classes better not EVER get an aggro reducer.  What we need is ways to generate aggro, not give it away.</P> <P>We aren't scouts.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I find this statemnet odd gaige. In essence fake death is an agro reducer. It effectly reduces yoru agor to 0. Adding a negative hate modifier could help brawlers who raid or take a back up tank role. Fake death has minimal use for tanking. Its an emergency spell use to drop agro..</P> <P>Now i get what your saying. If they give us a agor reducer it effectly puts us in any peoples eyes as a dps class. But realistically that is what they made us. A tank class that can DPS.<BR></P> <P>BTW at one point bruisers did have an agro reducer. Crash stated it reduced the agro on the mob. it was changed in LU13.</P>

[Geero]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BrainMuck wrote:<BR> <P>what I would like to see is an agro reduction attached to further lines of FD, if i accidently pull and FD to give agro back to the MT.  It is annoying when you stand back up and get agro instantly because your threat didn't drop at all. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The brawler classes better not EVER get an aggro reducer.  What we need is ways to generate aggro, not give it away.</P> <P>We aren't scouts.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I find this statemnet odd gaige. In essence fake death is an agro reducer. It effectly reduces yoru agor to 0. Adding a negative hate modifier could help brawlers who raid or take a back up tank role. Fake death has minimal use for tanking. Its an emergency spell use to drop agro..</P> <P>Now i get what your saying. If they give us a agor reducer it effectly puts us in any peoples eyes as a dps class. But realistically that is what they made us. A tank class that can DPS.<BR></P> <P>BTW at one point bruisers did have an agro reducer. Crash stated it reduced the agro on the mob. it was changed in LU13.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well I do find it odd that fighters asking for hate reduce skill, but I also see the point for asking for it, if you are being a puller in raid without being a MT.</P> <P>Let me ask you this tho, do you gain agro when you are in FD?  I don't believe you do, if you don't, isn't that kinda same to hate reducer?  I mean while you are in FD mode, everyone else's hate gets higher.  All you have to do is wait in FD mode for couple more hits and you shouldn't have to worry about getting agroed...  </P>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Geero wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gungo wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gaige wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> BrainMuck wrote: <div></div> <p>what I would like to see is an agro reduction attached to further lines of FD, if i accidently pull and FD to give agro back to the MT.  It is annoying when you stand back up and get agro instantly because your threat didn't drop at all. </p><hr> <p></p></blockquote> <p>The brawler classes better not EVER get an aggro reducer.  What we need is ways to generate aggro, not give it away.</p> <p>We aren't scouts.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I find this statemnet odd gaige. In essence fake death is an agro reducer. It effectly reduces yoru agor to 0. Adding a negative hate modifier could help brawlers who raid or take a back up tank role. Fake death has minimal use for tanking. Its an emergency spell use to drop agro..</p> <p>Now i get what your saying. If they give us a agor reducer it effectly puts us in any peoples eyes as a dps class. But realistically that is what they made us. A tank class that can DPS.</p> <p>BTW at one point bruisers did have an agro reducer. Crash stated it reduced the agro on the mob. it was changed in LU13.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Well I do find it odd that fighters asking for hate reduce skill, but I also see the point for asking for it, if you are being a puller in raid without being a MT.</p> <p>Let me ask you this tho,<b> do you gain agro when you are in FD?</b>  I don't believe you do, if you don't, isn't that kinda same to hate reducer?  I mean while you are in FD mode, everyone else's hate gets higher.  All you have to do is wait in FD mode for couple more hits and you shouldn't have to worry about getting agroed...  </p><hr></blockquote>When You FD you reset to 0 agro 0 hate while the buff is active. So say your in a raid and you pull agro and FD. The mob will turn back to the previous person on the hate list. Now if you get up before thier hate is higher than the hate you had before you dropped the mob will turn right back to you. So no you don't gain agro (except if your dot is on the mob, i'm sure that still counts but its little). But it doesn't reduce your agro.I don't really ever see them putting a detaunt on our taunt but the advantage of it would be you could spam crap take agro on purpose, FD, and get right back up and inthe long run it would result in higher DPS<div></div>

[Gora]

<P>nerf went in today.</P> <P>A3 is 96% now.</P> <P> </P> <P>argest</P> <P>Najena</P>