Monk DPS > Bruiser DPS currently?!

[LordMacbe]

Are bruisers somewhat lagging behind monks now in the dps department due to the huge proc nerf thanks to the former ranger gods?Got to love the domino effect.<div></div>

[Ether]

<div></div><p>Yes I think Bruisers do approximately 97.8934% the damage of Monks. That is highly situational of course and depends on strict correction for confounding factors like morning diet and excercise routine.</p><p> </p><p>Seriously, what question are you trying to pose in your post?</p>

[LordMacbe]

Well I assumed that bruisers were more offense and monks are defense based on what I have read about the classes and what SONY has on the official website (and in the independent game guides as well).I have heard ingame and rarely read on these boards though, that recently in groups monks have been churning out more dps in general due to their haste and bruisers somewhat being hurt by the proc changes.I am posting here to see what bruisers have to say about this and if it is generally true.<div></div>

[WinterAnar]

Well the 10% proc definately doesn't seem to be a 10% proc anymore on the offencive stance.  And Monks can stack haste up the whazoo so it wouldn't surprise me at all if monks were outdamaging bruisers.  Though I think this may have been the case before the changes to procs. A monk can stack haste and get to ~30% at level 24.  A bruiser can have like 9% dps mod? One has to wonder why they didn't just add +dps to the offencive stance when they first made it instead of a proc.  I have the feeling this may be how they fix the situation.<div></div>

[Mathe]

<div></div><p>The proc change is incredibly minimal to Bruiser. Haste isn't going to make up for the fact Bruiser CA damage is just flat out better. A better upgraded and/or better played Monk will outdamage a Bruiser, they are close enough that isn't too implausible, but the loss of what is really a pretty minimal damage change for anyone, but Rangers, is hardly a major consideration. My Swashbuckler has more multi-hit abilities and better proc damage, the actual effect of that nerf was completely unnoticable for me.</p><p>Bruiser damage is largely centered around their CAs. As is that of every other class. If it wasn't, then my Inquisitor with his legendary hammer and +DPS from Blessing would logically be a great damage dealer, but he isn't because he doesn't have the damage CAs or spells that easily beat out a good weapon and buff for damage.</p><p>The actual effect of Monk haste, in full offensive stance, is a lot more minimal than you would think. Let's say they have 70 damage weapons (about the same as Tier 6 legendary), say they have a 20% haste advantage (not sure about that most Monks I see never use offensive stance) over the Bruiser they are grouped with. That amounts to 14 more DPS while swinging (has no bearing on when using CAs), let's say they spend about 15 minutes using CAs, that amounts to 45 seconds x 14 DPS, meaning 630 more damage. Higher damage CAs would easily make up that gap and from what I've seen Bruiser CAs are sufficiently better damage to make up that gap.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<div></div>no.. what you have heard is wrong.   Bruisers own monks.  if you see a monk out dps a bruiser, then that only means one thing.... the end of the world is at hand. 

[Parasite]

<div>Depends on the situation really <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Most Group Hunting goes like this</div><div>--> Pull and 20seconds later mob is dead : Bruiser 590 DPS</div><div>--> Monk no idea bout monks but defanitly lower :p</div><div> </div><div>This is what happens if the combat takes about 45 Seconds:</div><div>--> Bruiser has used all his CA the first 20seconds together with Knockout Combination And now has 2 low recast minimal skills left to use</div><div>--> Monks Happely keeps on using his half time recast spells and auto attacking</div><div> </div><div>CA Balance each other out really : They do half the damage with their CA as us , but our CA Takes twice the refresh time.</div><div>Only real issue here is autocombat witch should be balanced out to make things equal again</div><div>Think our offensive stance should gain some personal DPS% Boost like another 40% or something i dunno,</div><div>Something to balance out the auto attack damage again between monk and bruiser.</div><div> </div><div>Greetz</div><div> </div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div></div>no.. what you have heard is wrong.   Bruisers own monks.  if you see a monk out dps a bruiser, then that only means one thing.... the end of the world is at hand. <hr></blockquote><p>ROFL</p><p> </p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Parasiteke wrote:<div>Depends on the situation really <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Most Group Hunting goes like this</div><div>--> Pull and 20seconds later mob is dead : Bruiser 590 DPS</div><div>--> Monk no idea bout monks but defanitly lower :p</div><div> </div><div><font size="4" color="#ffff00">This is what happens if the combat takes about 45 Seconds:</font></div><div><font size="4" color="#ffff00">--> Bruiser has used all his CA the first 20seconds together with Knockout Combination And now has 2 low recast minimal skills left to use</font></div><div><font size="4" color="#ffff00">--> Monks Happely keeps on using his half time recast spells and auto attacking</font></div><div> </div><div>CA Balance each other out really : They do half the damage with their CA as us , but our CA Takes twice the refresh time.</div><div>Only real issue here is autocombat witch should be balanced out to make things equal again</div><div>Think our offensive stance should gain some personal DPS% Boost like another 40% or something i dunno,</div><div>Something to balance out the auto attack damage again between monk and bruiser.</div><div> </div><div>Greetz</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Nah in 45 Sec's our CA's are burnt out so we just mez and have a smoke for a few before we carry on beating the crap outta the mobs , much more power efficient that way :smileytongue:

[Shankonia]

<div></div><div>Monk here.  I duo and grp regularly with a Bruiser.  We are pretty much equally equipped in Legendary/Fabled T6 and T7 gear and at least before he upgraded all of this skills through lvl 70 to Adept 3, he owned me in DPS (now that he has upgraded CA's i'm his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like it's not even funny).  The only instances I was able to top him - and mind you, we were playing to see how high we could get our DPS - were when I had one of my Master's Rage lines up on the speciffic mob.</div><div> </div><div>Now that we're into our AA's a bit (Bruiser going Str/Int and Monk going Sta/Wis) Bruiser continues to top me in just about every encounter.  The only way I can actually come close is on a large grp of mobs w/ Tsunami on, a 2H weapon, and I do everything in my power to keep the grp in front of me.</div><div> </div><div>The Bruiser is almost overpowered in raids at the moment.  We hope that some ugrades for our MT and a Troub in his grp will solve the problem, but as of last week he had to fight in defensive stance and could not use his Str AA abilities and CA's or he would pull aggro, FD, wait on the ground for a little bit, stand up, immediately regain aggro, FD again, and either die from an AE or stand up again to auto attack in defensive stance for the duration of the fight. </div><div> </div><div>Hopefully this week he'll get to use his CA's w/ most everyone being level 70. </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Danter]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shankonia wrote:<div></div><div>Monk here.  I duo and grp regularly with a Bruiser.  We are pretty much equally equipped in Legendary/Fabled T6 and T7 gear and at least before he upgraded all of this skills through lvl 70 to Adept 3, he owned me in DPS (now that he has upgraded CA's i'm his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like it's not even funny).  The only instances I was able to top him - and mind you, we were playing to see how high we could get our DPS - were when I had one of my Master's Rage lines up on the speciffic mob.</div><div> </div><div>Now that we're into our AA's a bit (Bruiser going Str/Int and Monk going Sta/Wis) Bruiser continues to top me in just about every encounter.  The only way I can actually come close is on a large grp of mobs w/ Tsunami on, a 2H weapon, and I do everything in my power to keep the grp in front of me.</div><div> </div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>Bruiser going STR line doesn't help much.  Group with a Monk going STR line and a Bruiser going STR line, then report back.  The difference in DPS is a lot and the Monk can go afk with auto-attack on and equal your damage, while never leaving full power and you constantly being at empty.</p><p>-Kald, 69 Bruiser Permafrost</p>

[nobunaga_x]

<div></div>I am not sure what Bruisers do as far as auto attack damage, but with my current 2h staff (1.8 delay) and my 100% haste I am cranking out anywhere from 250-400 with only my self buffs.  So wih the 100% haste my delay on that is actually .9

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><p>Simply put, my auto attack on my bruiser lvl 30 and my bruiser lvl 60 range from 30% to 40% of my total damage on normal fights (selfbuffed)</p><p>Monk gets a 100% haste self buffed to auto attack, I guess anyone can do the maths here...</p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ashdaren wrote:<div></div><p>Simply put, my auto attack on my bruiser lvl 30 and my bruiser lvl 60 range from 30% to 40% of my total damage on normal fights (selfbuffed)</p><p>Monk gets a 100% haste self buffed to auto attack, I guess anyone can do the maths here...</p><hr></blockquote>We talking tanking or soloing here cos there is no way on norath that 40 % of your damage comes from autoattack when soloing , CA's are around 80-85 % of my damage other than when im tanking and then i dont give a toss cos i aint dps im the tank

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ashdaren wrote:<div></div><p>Simply put, my auto attack on my bruiser lvl 30 and my bruiser lvl 60 range from 30% to 40% of my total damage on normal fights (selfbuffed)</p><p>Monk gets a 100% haste self buffed to auto attack, I guess anyone can do the maths here...</p><hr></blockquote>We talking tanking or soloing here cos there is no way on norath that 40 % of your damage comes from autoattack when soloing , CA's are around 80-85 % of my damage other than when im tanking and then i dont give a toss cos i aint dps im the tank<hr></blockquote>Indeed, but still the argument remain valid

[LordMacbe]

So as I understand as well, monks atm benefit a lot more from AA lines such as STR?What lines do bruisers benefit the most from atm?<div></div>

[Shankonia]

<div></div><p>So what you're telling me is that if I (a monk) simply auto attack a mob, while the bruiser goes all out blitz on it, I will equal his DPS output?  Are you flippin' kidding me?</p><p>I truely hope this thread is not leaning towards a "call to nerf" monk DPS.  Bruisers have the clear DPS advantage over Monks.  If you are getting out DPS'd by a monk you need to upgrade your skills, beef up your +str and make sure you know who is buffing who with what in your grp because something isn't right.</p><p>I may test it out soon with equal AA's just to see.</p>

[Obmarbe]

<div></div><div></div><p>Havent  found a monk that can beat me in pvp yet, every one ive fought died  or tried to run after they lose thier first few teeth.</p><p> </p><p>I punch em a few times and its like  someone threw a handful of chiclets on the ground at my feet.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Obmarbeta on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:15 PM</span></p>

[Danter]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shankonia wrote:<div></div><p>So what you're telling me is that if I (a monk) simply auto attack a mob, while the bruiser goes all out blitz on it, I will equal his DPS output?  Are you flippin' kidding me?</p><p>I truely hope this thread is not leaning towards a "call to nerf" monk DPS.  Bruisers have the clear DPS advantage over Monks.  If you are getting out DPS'd by a monk you need to upgrade your skills, beef up your +str and make sure you know who is buffing who with what in your grp because something isn't right.</p><p>I may test it out soon with equal AA's just to see.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Read my post carefully next time.  I said if Bruiser and Monk are both going STR line, which means they are fighting unarmed, the Bruiser can spam all the combat arts he wants, he'll never outdamage the Monk.  In fact, he won't be anywhere near him.  If you don't believe me, see for yourself.</p><p>Am I calling for a nerf?  No.  I want my offensive stance improved and/or AAs catered towards Bruisers and not all of them catered around Monks.</p><p>-Kald, 69 Bruiser Permafrost</p>

[Parasite]

<div>Totaly agree there, All AA Seem To Be tailored for monk.</div><div>Bruisers don't have any advantage over monks by going some line whilest monks get obvious advantage from going STR or STA or WIS. As for the issue: Monk auttoattack is kicking us in the nuts The only way to fix this is by self boosting DPS% With our offensive stance and/or make a RELEVANT scaling on our Group DPS Buff To Match monk autoattack.</div><div>Or Make our proc just go off a lot more, Lets say make it back the original damage (600-800) with 25% proc chance wich still aint going to match it cuz at the moment the 10% and the dmg is silly. (200-400dmg Master I at lvl 62 with 150 INT)</div><div> </div><div>For me Bruiser only has 2 issues really</div><ul><li>Scaling of DPS% Buffs <--> Monks Self-Haste Buffs</li><li>Mitigation AA instead of the Deflection in STA line since our deflection is already capped in most of the cases.Or Change the Last INT Line To a Higher % Of HP Requirement</li></ul><p> </p><p>Sincere Greetings</p><p>Daveke</p><p> </p><div> </div>

[TheHidden]

hey im a monk i know abruiser self caps on agiltiy he does.. meanwhile. my agility is at 250. wihtout added buffs etc he gets 71% avoidance while i get about 67% both in defensive stance and my stance at master 1 not sure on his.and im not sure there is a clear advantage for monks at all. how do you figure?. why would a certain AA line be more useful for monks than bruisers?.<div></div>

[TheHidden]

where can i get a parser btw id like to toest this out. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ..<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>LordMacbeth wrote:Are bruisers somewhat lagging behind monks now in the dps department due to the huge proc nerf thanks to the former ranger gods?Got to love the domino effect.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thank the wizards, not the Rangers. to think though, it didnt have to be this way.  To fix Rangers all they had to do was stop procs chaining. Rangers could proc poison, then their offensive proc which would proc another poison.  Easy way to fix that, limit to one proc per hit and check the offensive stance first.  If it procs, move along nothing to see here.  That would have moved Ranger damage down to where it needed to be and not affected anyone else.You guys didnt get affected that much, no where near what classes using slower weapons did.  Classes who had no choice to use those slower weapons no doubt.</span></div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Parasiteke wrote:<div>Mitigation AA instead of the Deflection in STA line since our deflection is already capped in most of the cases.<hr></div></blockquote>I guarantee you that your deflection is not capped.

[Corasik]

<div>There used to be a rumour that deflection capped at 40%, however with some of the +deflection on items, I've been able to push my deflection to around 43% with self buffs, and its certainly still increasing the displayed total avoidance number. If there was a cap, its been raised in the expansion.</div><div> </div><div>But at the moment we have the choice of 1.6% (approx) gain to defence, 1.5% to deflection, and 2.0% to parry per Achievement point. Parry seems to be the best first choice to improve avoidance, but defence or deflection, im just not sure which is the more effective choice.</div><div> </div><div>But as Gaige says, dont worry about hitting deflection cap.</div>

[Gaige]

<div></div>The overall avoidance cap is 80% and deflection and parry both cap at 70%.

[Parasite]

<div></div><p>@ The Hidden : U Get Wisdom buffs thus more resists ...</p><p>SO your argument is pretty much useless <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>On monk forum i see people posting they do 800-1000 DPS , i don't even get close to that TBH</p><p>maybe i am doing something wrong but i think i don't. I Just Blame their self haste 100%.</p><p>Bruiser Offensice stance needs loving !!! Give us self capped 100% DPS Boost !!</p>

[Owa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Parasiteke wrote:<div></div><p>@ The Hidden : U Get Wisdom buffs thus more resists ...</p><p>SO your argument is pretty much useless <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>On monk forum i see people posting they do 800-1000 DPS , i don't even get close to that TBH</p><p>maybe i am doing something wrong but i think i don't. I Just Blame their self haste 100%.</p><p>Bruiser Offensice stance needs loving !!! Give us self capped 100% DPS Boost !!</p><hr></blockquote>Monk DPS is definitely too high comparitively to Bruisers atm. I'm sure we'll be brought up again before too long. It all depends on how Moorguard's alts are doing ...

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div>Monk DPS is definitely too high comparitively to Bruisers atm. I'm sure we'll be brought up again before too long. It all depends on how Moorguard's alts are doing ...<hr></blockquote><p>Last I checked MG doesn't play alts - just his main.</p><p>If you want to know the truth... I think you guys are full of it.  I think if anything you were broken before the proc changes and we're more even now then we were.</p><p>I'm sure you won't believe that, but then again it doesn't really change it.</p>

[ganjookie]

sorry to hijackgrats on Sensei title Gaige<div></div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ganjookie wrote:grats on Sensei title Gaige<hr></blockquote>Thx <3

[Owa]

<div></div><font size="4">Should've stuck to 'fanboi'.</font>

[Gungo]

<div></div><p>To follow you up gaige. I do believe we were on the to much end of dps before the proc change, and the nerf to proc didnt bug me as much. If AA's were not implemented then i would say everything is relatively balanced. But now we have monks breaking 1kdps (when rangers and soon to be summoners are being lowered in dps) and guardians breaking 80% avoid (vs higher mobs). So now do to unforseen and broken mechanics there needs to be adjustments made. For instance nerfing the avodiance from the sta line for guards and making the line use all shields and evaluting the proc % on bruiser offensive stance to actually equal the listed value and the dam amount reevaluated. Furthermore they should reduce the amount of haste a monk can self buff since its was sorta silly that a monk retains no benefit from any other classes haste buffs.</p><p>Truthfully i dotn think they should of lowered the amount of damage and % our offensive stance did as well as overhaul procs. But then again i think they were 2 seperate events that occured w/o knowledge of the effect both would play together. Do i think bruisers dont do enuff dps atm, No. But i think monks at lvl 70 w the right AA's do. And should be balanced to be the same as bruisers. As well i think the 80% guard avoidance needs to be fixed.</p><p>But other then glaring issues such as the guard super avoidance i don't think they should nerf classes until most people start to reach lvl 70 and close in on the 50 aa cap since then will only be the true way of actually seeing the effects. My timeline on this would be mid to early april. This is the point i see the majority of hardcore or dedicated players maxing out thier characters.</p>

[Bewts]

<div></div><p>As a 70 monk, tanking in Palace in one of the dragon rooms I asked the group not to stun the next lvl 71 ^^^ mob.  I had a 70 Coercer, 66 Bruiser 69 Mystic 66 Assassin 66 Inquisitor in my group.  I threw up Storming Palm Adept3 on incoming followed by Tsunami.  Going in a STR line with 4/8/8 and in offensive stance (Halycon Blessing) from T5 Adept3 I fired Punishing Cobra Master 1, followed by Pressure Point.  Then it was Soaring Dragon Adept 1, Frozen Palm Master 1, Flailing Centipede Master 1 and finally Silent Palm Master 1 (T5 art there).  Soon as Tsunami wore off I spammed Arctic Talon Master 1, Soaring Eagle Master 1 and finally Assailing Jaguar Master 1 with a Relic BP 190 damage modifier.  My last art was Dragonbreath Adept3 and I sat there with Auto attack and refreshed Punishing Cobra and Pressure Point when they popped followed by whatever else popped up before the fight ended.  My Haste was 95% maintained and over that short term and my DPS modifier was 100%+ maintained.</p><p>My DPS that fight: 1267</p><p>On average, tanking in that group my DPS ranged from 480-750 DPS with the occasional 800-900 DPS spikes.</p><p>In Vyemm's Lab in a non DPS setup group (I'm our pull beotch) I was averaging between 400-600 DPS with auto attack ONLY for the duration of the fights regadless if it was one ^^^ or multiple mobs.  That was with 100% Haste and 20% DPS mod + short term fury procs and acrylia ring procs</p><p>My baseline stats in tanking mode but offensive are:</p><p>6255 Health 3077 Power</p><p>345 STR 226 AGI 203 STA 51 INT</p><p>Attack Rating 1545 Mitigation 2469 Avoidance 53.7% Haste 95% DPS 20%</p><p>I can't compare myself to any bruiser as our only bruiser in guild is a botted alt, but compare that to what you observe and tell me if there is a glaring difference between a monk and a bruiser</p>

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Bewts wrote:<div></div><p>In Vyemm's Lab in a non DPS setup group (I'm our pull beotch) I was averaging between 400-600 DPS with auto attack ONLY for the duration of the fights regadless if it was one ^^^ or multiple mobs.  That was with 100% Haste and 20% DPS mod + short term fury procs and acrylia ring procs</p><p>My baseline stats in tanking mode but offensive are:</p><p></p><hr><p>At first thank you for sharing your number with us.</p><p>In the situation you just described I can indeed compare with bruiser : as we get 0% Haste and 44% DPS compared to 100% haste and 20% DPS</p><p>Lets say unbuffed the DPS is 200 on average, then the DPS of our respective class self buffed becomes :</p><p>Bruiser : 200*1.44      =  288 :  <strong>44% Boost</strong>Monk : 200*2.00*1.20 = 480 : <strong>140% Boost</strong>As you can notice Monk DPS boost increase the DPS 318% more than the Bruiser DPS mod. (318% = [140/44]*100)</p><p>it is a huge difference, since the benefit of the DPS modifier(as long as proc rates) is doubled with 100% haste.</p><p>_________________________Still waiting on Devs to fix our offensive stance</p></blockquote><p>Message Edited by Ashdaren on <span class="date_text">03-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:29 AM</span></p>

[Vorham]

<div></div><p>i tried maxed unarmed as a bruiser... for me without haste it wasn't that much better than a good pair of weapons normally... BUT it was godly when i was in groups with high haste amounts and even better if +dps or debuffs were present.  No one could pull aggro off of me if I wanted then, and the ranged double attack portion was kickass... I will not be surprised when unarmed monks who also max out their procs or crits start posting godly DPS numbers.  Just give it time.</p><p>I haven't parsed it but with max crits and dual pris 2/cugdel or grizzfazzle staff id estimate my dps from autoattack to be in the 300-400ish range.   If I want DPS I have to burn power with combat arts. That's not sustainable long term and arts have long recast and wide variation in damage. Can hit hard for over 1k or maybe only for 500ish ... depends on the situation, mob, buffs, debuffs, dice roll. Then have to wait 30s-1.5 mins for refresh for the big hitters - 10s for Pound and Dropkick but they are really weak hitters as far as bruiser arts go.</p><p>Having not played a monk I don't know exactly how it is for them but I've experienced high levels of haste and the difference is remarkable.  I've also seen guild monks say they don't need to use much power to do their DPS. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[korp]

<div>Do all bruisers run around with 0 %haste ? Aint there any uppgrade to FBSS thats atleast 15 % haste ?</div>

[Corasik]

<div></div><div>I've yet to find a decent haste item that beats the FBSS, so im still using FBSS at 67, and probably still at 70. SOE doesnt seem to like haste items much, mebee they drop on deep raids, but nothing much from groupable instances.</div><div> </div><div>There isnt a huge selection for haste. Im pretty annoyed that it seems right now, if you want brawler DPS, then unarmed is the best choice. I've played a dual 'fist' weapon wielding brawler since the game was released, and dont wish to be forced to dump my weapons.</div><div> </div><div>Lack of haste for bruisers certainly does hurt compared to monks, and I 'thought' that bruisers were supposed to be slightly more 'offensive' than monks, with worse avoidance and slightly worse overall at tanking. In practice the tanking is pretty comparible between them, but monks with the Str AA line are at a strong advantage over bruisers for dps. Mostly because bruiser offensive, and combine stances both rely on procs to increase damage, and procs are really very 'secondary' since the nerf. I'd take a +haste modifier, or another +dps modifier over a proc anyday.</div>

[Bad]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Parasiteke wrote:<div>Mitigation AA instead of the Deflection in STA line since our deflection is already capped in most of the cases.<hr></div></blockquote>I guarantee you that your deflection is not capped.<hr></blockquote>Unless it changed since the KoS beta, at level 60, deflection is capped at 360 skill which gives 50% chance.  I would imagine it would be capped at 420 at level 70.  Certainly not easy to reach, but not impossible.

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Badge wrote:<div></div>Unless it changed since the KoS beta, at level 60, deflection is capped at 360 skill which gives 50% chance.  I would imagine it would be capped at 420 at level 70.  Certainly not easy to reach, but not impossible.<hr></blockquote>Deflection is capped at 70%, as per Moorgard's posting in the guardian forums.

[Bad]

<div><blockquote><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>Deflection is capped at 70%, as per Moorgard's posting in the guardian forums.<hr></blockquote><p>While that may be true, the deflection against white mobs in the avoidance popup is capped at 50% as of KoS beta.  At level 60 in the KoS beta, adding more than 360 skill did not increase this over 50%.</p><p>Just because deflection is hard capped at 70% doesn't mean that the deflection skill isn't also capped.</p></blockquote></div>

[Parasite]

<div>If Maxed Fist damage with no haste is comparable to normal weapons ...</div><div>The Difference at 100% haste and 100% won't be as big either ...</div><div> </div><div>If DPS difference at 0% haste and 0% dps = 5dps or something</div><div>It will be 20dps at 100% haste and 100% dps</div><div> </div><div>On the other hand if the dps difference is 50 ... it will be 200dps difference.</div><div>Monks just need to max out DPS buffs, Bruisers need both DPS AND HASTE to be max buffed to achieve this.</div><div>Our DPS Modifier should be present on our ofensive stance and group buff should be improved dramaticly.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Greetings</div>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corasik wrote:<BR> <DIV>Lack of haste for bruisers certainly does hurt compared to monks, and I 'thought' that bruisers were supposed to be slightly more 'offensive' than monks, with worse avoidance and slightly worse overall at tanking. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Bruiser and monk damage output, in the overall game-wide sense, is intended to be very close together. We've never made any statement that bruisers should always outdamage monks. There are, however, situations where each has a slight edge, because they arrive at their DPS in somewhat different ways.<BR> <BR>The simple version of the overall picture is this: monks land more attacks for lower damage each, whereas bruisers land fewer attacks for greater damage each.<BR> <BR>Monks can achieve very high haste with their own abilities; they can reach 100% on their own if they are willing (though not without a cost), and can hit that threshold pretty easily in the right group. Haste means more autoattack rounds in a given time frame, providing more chances for a weapon to proc and more chances for autoattacks to crit.<BR> <BR>Bruisers arrive at their damage numbers through a combination of procs, their DPS buff, and higher base damage. For example, bruiser autoattack damage is slightly higher than that of a monk, which means that any associated crits will generally also be higher. Therefore double attacks will also hit harder, as opposed to the monk which gets more of them. The bruiser DPS buff gives a slightly higher percentage than the comparable monk buff gives of haste. Bruisers also get an additional damage proc in their Roughhousing line that monks don't.<BR> <BR>In solo situations, obviously the haste of the monk comes in very handy. The potential downside of all that self haste can be seen in groups, where the haste-capped monk might not benefit from of the haste buffs coming from other members. The bruiser can take advantage of those haste buffs while also having lots of headroom to get additional DPS buffs. But in any case, I don't think either class can make a valid claim to feel underpowered when loaded with a wide range of group buffs.<BR> <BR>The monk offensive stance gives haste while the bruiser stance gives a proc. The effect on overall damage output calculates to be very close together, even though some bruisers would rather the stance gave a DPS boost instead. The idea that the proc on the bruiser offensive line is somehow worthless is a misconception. Bruiser proc damage was balanced around the way it will be after the next live update, not the broken proc-on-each-hit way it was before or procing on double attacks as it is now. (To be clear, double attack achievements for ALL classes were balanced like this, without the intention of additional procs.)</P> <P>Some on the bruiser boards have complained that the Strength achievement line is great for monks but worthless for bruisers. As with most blanket statements, this simply isn't the case. There can certainly be situations in which a monk outdamages a bruiser with this or any other line, but those who try to portray haste as the only important factor in brawler damage output are presenting a very narrow view of the facts.</P> <P>Monks hit faster. Bruisers hit harder. That does not mean the two classes are always equal, or that monks are always better, or that bruisers are always better. Just because someone can come up with a situation where one has an advantage does not mean in and of itself that either class is broken. I'm not saying that such discussion is meaningless, but when it comes to where they sit in the overall scheme of DPS, monks and bruisers don't have a lot to complain about. They are both extremely versatile classes that pack a considerable punch.</P>

[Maelwy]

<P>What i'd like to see done to balance the classes slightly is an increase to the taunt amount on roughhousing, or an increase to 50% on the chance for it to proc.</P> <P> </P> <P>Monks hasted dps will peel aggro from a m1/m2 taunting bruiser in similar quality gear.  No matter how hard I try to keep aggro from a monk, it's a done deal that a monk's gonna peel aggro from me, and it's not coming back unless they fd.  Even after a 5sec fd, they pop back up and go to autoattack and the mob switches back.  </P> <P>The change to ca procs (on primary hand damage only) really hurt bruisers on that roughhousing proc specifically.  It created an imbalance where previously there had been a rough parity.</P> <P> </P> <P>Please look into this.</P>

[Lornick]

<P>Well Moorgard, I absolutely see your point.  Given a choice between a proc or another dps mod with bruiser offensive stance I would definately choose the dps mod if for the only reason that I I like to see big numbers =p  But none the less, I have alot of fun playing my bruiser and in the right situation I could see the proc being significantly better then the dps mod (if you were in a group that could raise haste/dps to cap).  </P> <P>If I had to guess where alot of the jealousy is coming from, I think it is based on monks having 3 separate haste buffs that stack whereas bruisers just have the one group dps buff.  As a bruiser it's kind of hard to see where we make up for those other two stackable buffs.  One is the offensive stance proc of course.  But what is the bruiser equivalent of the hp draining maintainable self haste buff?  The only one that seems to correspond is the hp draining mitigation buff.  I love that spell, but once again if I had the choice of that temporary mitigation buff or a maintainable dps buff that drained life over time I would choose the dps buff in a heartbeat.  But game balance is your department not ours.  I think this argument really boils down to players trying to min/max and number crunch a little too much.  I can't recall anyone ever saying that my bruiser just doesn't do enough damage (if anything, it's the other way).  So long as that is the case I'll be a happy player.</P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <P>What i'd like to see done to balance the classes slightly is an increase to the taunt amount on roughhousing, or an increase to 50% on the chance for it to proc.</P> <P> </P> <P>Monks hasted dps will peel aggro from a m1/m2 taunting bruiser in similar quality gear.  No matter how hard I try to keep aggro from a monk, it's a done deal that a monk's gonna peel aggro from me, and it's not coming back unless they fd.  Even after a 5sec fd, they pop back up and go to autoattack and the mob switches back.  </P> <P>The change to ca procs (on primary hand damage only) really hurt bruisers on that roughhousing proc specifically.  It created an imbalance where previously there had been a rough parity.</P> <P> </P> <P>Please look into this.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Tell the monk to stop being an idiot and turn off his taunt proc.

[Maelwy]

<DIV>it doesn't fix the problem.  their taunt proc isn't the sole reason for their pulling aggro...  it helps, but it merely delays the inevitable</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cuz]

There's no way a monk can pull agro from you only auto attacking if you taunt.

[Finedo]

how about we get some dev responce on guards somewhere instead off ignorring us on our issues <div></div>

[Anjin]

<P>For a start, you're basically fighting a  yellow con 3 up heroic mob in your offensive stance, which is certainly not the norm and you would have gained a tremendous amount of dps with the tsunami up.  In a normal situation you either have one or the other up, not both (for the fight duration, not tsunami duration) What is the point in providing details of a premeditated situational parse?</P> <P>Anjin</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Herbster on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>We talking tanking or soloing here cos there is no way on norath that 40 % of your damage comes from autoattack when soloing , CA's are around 80-85 % of my damage other than when im tanking and then i dont give a toss cos i aint dps im the tank</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>I do parses a lot ever since I got Advanced Combat Tracker, and I can say that on average 30% of my damage is strictly from auto attack weapon damage alone (let alone things attached to autoattack like Roughousing or Engulf, etc). This surprised me, I thought I wasn't doing any real damage with weapons between my CAs... but I was wrong.</P> <P>And this is all in a fight where I spam all my attacks and the fight ends maybe a few seconds after a full cycle (~25s long fights).</P> <P>This number only climbs when I'm tanking and/or need to conserve power, or if the fight goes on longer.</P> <P>It really depends on your weapons though. I use two dual wield weapons usually (even with the Wis line, unless I'm tanking groups and need to keep aggro).<BR>Right now at my level (66) twohanders cannot keep up in DPS, nor can unarmed with strength line.</P> <P> </P> <P>So yeah.. for those of us that have focused on high DPS weapons, 100% haste could make a world of difference. My last parse showed my weapons did 135 of my ~500 DPS, at 0% haste. I'd certainly like to slap on another 135 DPS on top of what I normally do, even if there's a cost!</P> <P>I'm not using my lousy "mitigation for health" ability now... yet monks use their "haste for health" all the time. Why can't I have a "+DPS for health" ability? I hurt my body to hit harder... makes freaking sense to me! As it stands, since it costs so much health for that mitigation, I'd have to take 4x my total health in damage within 3 minutes to <EM>break even</EM> for the cost of the ability. For a lousy 15% more mitigation per hit.</P> <P>Whatever...</P>

[selch]

<DIV>You guys also forgetting one more thing, especially post T7 mobs and mobs with new AI.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DAMAGE SHIELDS</DIV> <DIV>Berserker Mobs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>More Haste , more Auto-attack = more direct damage you get that passes avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gobbwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <P>I do parses a lot ever since I got Advanced Combat Tracker, and I can say that on average 30% of my damage is strictly from auto attack weapon damage alone (let alone things attached to autoattack like Roughousing or Engulf, etc). This surprised me, I thought I wasn't doing any real damage with weapons between my CAs... but I was wrong.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>After quite a few parses in quite a few different situations, I've been reaching comperable numbers with regards to how much of my DPS is auto-attack.  It fluxuates depending on the group composition.  Having a haster in the group or when tanking, that number goes up quite a bit.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <P>I'm not using my lousy "mitigation for health" ability now... yet monks use their "haste for health" all the time. Why can't I have a "+DPS for health" ability? I hurt my body to hit harder... makes freaking sense to me! As it stands, since it costs so much health for that mitigation, I'd have to take 4x my total health in damage within 3 minutes to <EM>break even</EM> for the cost of the ability. For a lousy 15% more mitigation per hit.</P> <P>Whatever...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Monks also have the health for invis.  While this ability is somewhat mitigated by the fact that invis totems are dirt cheap, what ability of ours is equivlant to that?  But I have to totally agree with how rarely I use my miti for health buff.  I tried soloing w/ it quite a few times and ended up dieing faster.  Tried it in groups and was asked by the healers not to use it, so when exactly is it good to use?  Yea, monk health for haste probably isn't a great idea when they are tanking, but unless we are tanking, we have no reason to use the health for miti (lets avoid the issue of brawlers tanking and most other classes view on that for now).  I mean don't get me wrong, I love my bruiser and have no animosity for our bretherin monks (and definatlly don't ever wanna see anyone hit by the nerf bat), but I'd really like to have more usage for abilities that are otherwise just wasting space on my hot bars.</P>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Finedorf wrote:how about we get some dev responce on guards somewhere instead off ignorring us on our issues<div></div><hr></blockquote>Get in line man, you should have checked what classes the developers play before rolling. Thats the only way to be assured your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] gets taken care of...hehe

[Gungo]

<P>Stop complaining about bruiser vs monk both classes are basically the same. The grass is not greener on the other side. </P> <P>Monk invis is short lived compared to 30 min invis totems. And Our mezz/fear os our eqivilant allows me to take on multi heroic fights. </P> <P>Our Mitigation buff is equivilant to heir haste allwos me to tank named in groups that hit like a truck easie then a monk.</P> <P>we don't reach any caps by oursleves which allwo us more room to grow and thus allows us to be better at dps w eqivilant buffs.</P> <P>Monks may or may not have better agro its really very close and even if they do who cares we got more mitigation and more Dps growth potential. </P> <P>let it go, when they do implement class crossovers if you still feel short changed by all means go become a monk. I for one would rather they not alter either class.</P>

[digitalblasphemy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Corasik wrote: <div></div> <div>Lack of haste for bruisers certainly does hurt compared to monks, and I 'thought' that bruisers were supposed to be slightly more 'offensive' than monks, with worse avoidance and slightly worse overall at tanking. <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>Bruiser and monk damage output, in the overall game-wide sense, is intended to be very close together. We've never made any statement that bruisers should always outdamage monks. There are, however, situations where each has a slight edge, because they arrive at their DPS in somewhat different ways. The simple version of the overall picture is this: monks land more attacks for lower damage each, whereas bruisers land fewer attacks for greater damage each. Monks can achieve very high haste with their own abilities; they can reach 100% on their own if they are willing (though not without a cost), and can hit that threshold pretty easily in the right group. Haste means more autoattack rounds in a given time frame, providing more chances for a weapon to proc and more chances for autoattacks to crit. Bruisers arrive at their damage numbers through a combination of procs, their DPS buff, and higher base damage. For example, bruiser autoattack damage is slightly higher than that of a monk, which means that any associated crits will generally also be higher. Therefore double attacks will also hit harder, as opposed to the monk which gets more of them. The bruiser DPS buff gives a slightly higher percentage than the comparable monk buff gives of haste. Bruisers also get an additional damage proc in their Roughhousing line that monks don't. In solo situations, obviously the haste of the monk comes in very handy. The potential downside of all that self haste can be seen in groups, where the haste-capped monk might not benefit from of the haste buffs coming from other members. The bruiser can take advantage of those haste buffs while also having lots of headroom to get additional DPS buffs. But in any case, I don't think either class can make a valid claim to feel underpowered when loaded with a wide range of group buffs. The monk offensive stance gives haste while the bruiser stance gives a proc. The effect on overall damage output calculates to be very close together, even though some bruisers would rather the stance gave a DPS boost instead. The idea that the proc on the bruiser offensive line is somehow worthless is a misconception. Bruiser proc damage was balanced around the way it will be after the next live update, not the broken proc-on-each-hit way it was before or procing on double attacks as it is now. (To be clear, double attack achievements for ALL classes were balanced like this, without the intention of additional procs.)</p> <p>Some on the bruiser boards have complained that the Strength achievement line is great for monks but worthless for bruisers. As with most blanket statements, this simply isn't the case. There can certainly be situations in which a monk outdamages a bruiser with this or any other line, but those who try to portray haste as the only important factor in brawler damage output are presenting a very narrow view of the facts.</p> <p>Monks hit faster. Bruisers hit harder. That does not mean the two classes are always equal, or that monks are always better, or that bruisers are always better. Just because someone can come up with a situation where one has an advantage does not mean in and of itself that either class is broken. I'm not saying that such discussion is meaningless, but when it comes to where they sit in the overall scheme of DPS, monks and bruisers don't have a lot to complain about. They are both extremely versatile classes that pack a considerable punch.</p><hr></blockquote>Moorgard, why do you never reply to any threads in the Guardian forums?  Why is it a ghost town of non activity from SOE employees?  Why must we be continually ignored?  There's not been a post from any game designer for over 5 months now.  Come on man.  Help us out here instead of only replying and supplying information for the exact class you just happen to play.  There's only one conclusion and that's no DEV at SOE plays a Guardian.  There's no other explanation for why we have been ignored for god knows how long.  Either fire the person who should be doing their job or for crying out loud, have a DEV actually play our class.</div>

[MeridianR]

For the same reason we never see any dev responses in the Paladin forum....it seems MG only responds to Monk vs Bruiser post's to either defend Bruisers, or derail monks when they try to say something negative against bruisers.<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>The only reason I bring up monks is because they are our brothers, and we can directly compare our lines. So we can see what isn't working on our side, and how it's working well on the monk side, and say "we want something that works well like that".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At master 1, our mit for health ability grants us about 15% more mitigation for the cost of 62% of our health over 3 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means we need to take 4 times our max health in damage in 3 minutes to break even on this ability. And I'm sorry, but 15% mitigation on a 3k hit is still over 2500 damage... plus you are draining your health during this. You are still going to be taxing the healers, even if you use this ability. Really, I've NEVER successfully used this ability to tank big hitting mobs... it's always been outside factors, like spammed wards + regens on me, or stacked slow/attack debuffs on the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the dev's can see what people do and use, then I'd like to know what numbers they have on the amount of bruisers that actually use this ability. Cuz right now, I only ever use it in "i'm gonna die anyways" emergencies, with "ooh look at that" factor of hitting 60% mitigation when stacked with our other mit buff and defensive stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly, it always seemed off too... that we get a defensive ability where monks get a straight up attack one. Not even because "bruisers are more offense, monks are more defense". Rather, it's strange because they are twin lines, but go in opposite directions. And since ours is used once in a blue moon, and arguably useless, it would be nice to see it change into a similar but "bruiserish" ability comparitive to the monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean... I'd use a +DPS for health ability all the time! About as often as a DPSing monk uses their haste!</DIV> <DIV>And who cares if we stretch a little closer to the DPS cap? For one thing, we'd be less reliant on others for buffing, which means they can buff others, or aren't needed in our group to flourish. Which means we bring something more to the group/raid than a useless health draining mitigation buff. As it stands, we can self buff ourselves to max 24% DPS with our group buff. That's it. So even with a 30-40% buff that costs health, we'd still not even approach being maxed either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... and if +DPS increased proc damage too, then it could be directly comparable to haste, and make our procs much more worth it with very little tweaking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... But I'm not holding my breath on any of this.</DIV>

[Deeds]

<DIV>Moorgard wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"<EM>Bruisers arrive at their damage numbers through a combination of procs, their DPS buff, and higher base damage. For example, bruiser autoattack damage is slightly higher than that of a monk, which means that any associated crits will generally also be higher. Therefore double attacks will also hit harder, as opposed to the monk which gets more of them. The bruiser DPS buff gives a slightly higher percentage than the comparable monk buff gives of haste. Bruisers also get an additional damage proc in their Roughhousing line that monks don't</EM>"</DIV> <DIV>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard, in theory maybe this works, but not in practice.  In offensive stance and all procs on (which are less effectives since the change, dont forget)  in no way does this equal.  In auto attack, even without any AA lines, a monk will about double the dps of the bruiser because of the haste.  Put in the strength AA line and  its no contest.  The only way a bruiser can even come close is to burn through power like mad.  Once we are  oop its sad, and statements like these look silly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"In solo situations, obviously the haste of the monk comes in very handy. The potential downside of all that self haste can be seen in groups, where the haste-capped monk might not benefit from of the haste buffs coming from other members. The bruiser can take advantage of those haste buffs while also having lots of headroom to get additional DPS buffs. But in any case, I don't think either class can make a valid claim to feel underpowered when loaded with a wide range of group buffs</EM>"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sorry, this statement makes no sense at all.  The 100% hasted monk can ALSO benefit from grp DPS buffs, and its actually easier for the monk since they only need  one DPS buffer in the grp.  Bruisers on the other hand  need a haste buffer AND a dps buffer in the group to be roughly equal to the monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"Bruiser proc damage was balanced around the way it will be after the next live update, not the broken proc-on-each-hit way it was before or procing on double attacks as it is now. (To be clear, double attack achievements for ALL classes were balanced like this, without the intention of additional procs.)"</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>Huh? you lost me there.  Our proc was balanced? you mean made even more insignificant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry I dont like to whine but I had to reply to moorgards statements.  In practice these things just do not add up Moor, and anone with a parser can clearly see it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tzing Tao</DIV>

[Nemi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At master 1, our mit for health ability grants us about 15% more mitigation for the cost of 62% of our health over 3 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means we need to take 4 times our max health in damage in 3 minutes to break even on this ability. And I'm sorry, but 15% mitigation on a 3k hit is still over 2500 damage... plus you are draining your health during this. You are still going to be taxing the healers, even if you use this ability. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Mitigation is king. You really are playing down this ability. As you state on a 3k hit you are preventing 500 damage (or 450) that is a whack of a lot. Your ability is certainly not a solo tool unless your soloing heroics but its a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good group tool.</P> <P>Brawlers are well balanced in regards to each other, its Brawlers compared to everyone else tanking that should be looked at. It seems tho SoE have backed down on the claim to allow all subclasses to tank and are slowly making Guardians the only viable raid tank. They are clever and not doing it retrospectively but each new expansion will slowly move us further apart.</P>

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Moorgard, why do you never reply to any threads in the Guardian forums?  Why is it a ghost town of non activity from SOE employees?  Why must we be continually ignored?  There's not been a post from any game designer for over 5 months now.  Come on man.  Help us out here instead of only replying and supplying information for the exact class you just happen to play.  There's only one conclusion and that's no DEV at SOE plays a Guardian.  There's no other explanation for why we have been ignored for god knows how long.  Either fire the person who should be doing their job or for crying out loud, have a DEV actually play our class.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>May be because there is nothing in guardian boards except whines against brawlers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:00 AM</span>

[Sta]

I love my bruiser, period <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gungo]

<P>The mitigation buff i will give you is fairly useless soloing (even on heorics). But i use it all the time for named in heroic groups and certain mob types like ravesects and HoF or any yellow con+ heroic. The main benefit from it is it saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. It stabalizes the one issue w bruiser tanks the spike damage. Take a parse program and look at how much damage you take in a XP fight over 3 min. It can be beyond 4x your health. Thats the issue with using it a good bruiser know when to use it and when not too. its an invalueable tool that many bruisers Love to use. If you don't see its value its generaly your lack of playstyle or simply because your one of the bruisers(fighter) who think they are a scout and never tank. So again leave my mitigation buff alone. Go switch to a monk if you want haste. The fact is w a haste item and a illusinst in group i am fairly close to 100% haste a benefit the monks DONT recieve. And on top of that i have an extra proc and more DPS. Which is harder to raise. A monk going str aa only has 20% dps and if they had a coercer ~45% more for a whooping ~65% Dps boost. Solo monks have more haste yeah but bruiser have the potential to do bettter DPS and tank better. STOP COMPLAINING we have more growth room then monks do and the ability to do more DPS in the long run and the ability to tank better. </P> <P>Furthermore we are better soloing. we can mezz and fear. This allows me to take on heoric multi mob groups w a bit of ease. Genrally its hard to control the damage recieved but with mezz i effectively reduce a heroic dam output by 1/2. We do bettter burst DPS. What that means is by the time stuns wear off most mobs even heroics are almsot dead or alreayed dead. For goodness sake get knockout combo to adept3 /master 1 and burn your combat arts. I found a combo that lets me get thru "most" of my combat arts 2x before it expires. I can take most heroic encounters of even con this way. W/o full fabled/ master gear. </P> <P>So once again we solo better, tank better, and have the ability to raise our dps more. [Removed for Content] are you complaining. Moorgard is 100% correct we have our pros and cons. We are better dps in situations then monks. We are better tanks in situations then monks. IF you think the monks are better off please for goodness sake leave  MY class alone and go play a monk.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Mitigation is king. You really are playing down this ability. As you state on a 3k hit you are preventing 500 damage (or 450) that is a whack of a lot. Your ability is certainly not a solo tool unless your soloing heroics but its a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good group tool.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>So let me get this straight... this ability is to withstand the big hits so you won't die as fast right? Because the smaller hits won't kill you before the healers can react, and would never do enough damage to make this anything but a net loss anyways, right?</P> <P>So that means I'd have to find the specific situations where the ~15% mitigation will mean teh difference between being two shotted, and giving my healer(s) time to react. Well for one thing if it's a mob known for big hits, they should already be prepared... or the group should be prepared, with a shaman. Second, what is that magical number? 3k hits? If I have 6k hp, and I'm being hit for 3k then maybe it'd work... so how do I know it's going to be 3k though? What if it crits and throws off my numbers? What if the creature tosses on a dot along with the drain... or he's an SK so I'm hurting myself while I attack it.. draining plus that damage could push me over the edge, despite the mitigation. It's not like this ability mitigates magic damage.</P> <P>We have to predict the future... it's as bad an interupt with a 5s cast time.</P> <P>It's getting to be a VERY narrow field where that extra mitigation would ever be worth it, because in the end, it's not efficient. In fact, it's the first time I've ever seen any game give an ability that made you LESS efficient at your job. All I ever get from using it is healers complaining about running lower on power and wondering why. <EM>Every single time I've used it. </EM>And I've never had a situation where I was glad I had that extra smidgen of mitigation. We can't rely on 15% more mitigation saving the day... we take the encounters as if I AM going to be twoshotted, because with crits and spells and debuffs, it could happen regardless of any extra mitigation. So in the end I have an ability that pisses off the healers, and threatens a wipe on long fights due to OOP.</P> <P> </P> <P>Mitigation might be King, but Hitpoints are God. You don't kill God to save the King.</P>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stain wrote:<BR> I love my bruiser, period <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I love Lamp. :smileyhappy:

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Thats the issue with using it a good bruiser know when to use it and when not too. its an invalueable tool that many bruisers Love to use. If you don't see its value its generaly your lack of playstyle or simply because your one of the bruisers(fighter) who think they are a scout and never tank.</FONT></P> <P>Come play in my situation. Every time I've used this ability, the healers told me to stop using it, because I was making a difficult situation harder for them. They could handle it without the buff, but not the added drain over time. This ability isn't failing because it's not mitigating the hits, it's failing me or my healers, whichever, because over time it's killing me worse than the mob would have alone.</P> <P>And I have gone over my parses. The only times I've taken more than 2x my health (and even that is pretty rare), is when it's a very long fight (usually 4+ minutes) and the mob is 4 or 5 levels higher than me (so I'm not the ideal tank for it anyways). And these are always named or raid... I've never come close to 4x my health in a regular xp fight.</P> <P>So with parses like that, and healers telling you to "knock it off", how would you come across this ability? I'm sorry if my playstyle involves not getting hit for 4x my health in 3 minutes in regular xp groups.... yeesh.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So once again we solo better, tank better, and have the ability to raise our dps more. [Removed for Content] are you complaining.</FONT></P> <P>So once again I repeat how I'm not saying monks are better overall, just that as a guideline, they have a nice ability and in my experience, we have one that isn't and could stand to use some tweaking. Once again I'll repeat that I don't want haste, in fact I said that +DPS would work better in concept.</P> <P>I still love my bruiser, and would never choose monk over it. I prefer the style, the concept, and the abilities. But that's not to say that I think everything is perfect with the class.</P>

[Maelwy]

<DIV>try upgrading it to something higher than app4.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>at adep1-master1, it will boost mitigation nicely, for a recurring power cost lower than your health regen per tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think about the way you have to boost in combat health regen if this is still not sufficient.  There are items with regen on them.  You can respec, and take the health  regen bonus instead of the max health.  I'm pretty sure that taking the health regen trait in a respec at 70 would MORE than compensate me for the health over time that the spirit line drains when it is up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've never seemed to have a problem with its recurrent health cost tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What race did you choose, and which trait choices?  You may have made some detrimental choices....</DIV>

[dagoo7]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So once again we solo better, tank better, and have the ability to raise our dps more. [Removed for Content] are you complaining.</FONT></P> <P>So once again I repeat how I'm not saying monks are better overall, just that as a guideline, they have a nice ability and in my experience, we have one that isn't and could stand to use some tweaking. Once again I'll repeat that I don't want haste, in fact I said that +DPS would work better in concept.</P> <P>I still love my bruiser, and would never choose monk over it. I prefer the style, the concept, and the abilities. But that's not to say that I think everything is perfect with the class.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I currently have bruiser and monk alts both at lvl 25ish and trying to decide which one to play.  Based on my experience, the above "fix" would just make brawlers more overpowered than monks.  Yes monks get a "nice" ability in haste but that is to compensate for the fact that CA damage is measly.  Even at 25ish Bruiser CAs do incredibly way more damage and looking at abilities down the line this is only gonna become more pronounced.   In many cases, it seems like a waste to even be using monk CAs as just take away from autoattack damage.<BR></P> <P>Regardless of how "nice" it would be to have another +dps boost (and would make my decision about which to play easier) its just not gonna happen.  Its only a factor situationally and devs have bigger issues to worry about (including annoying complaints from others about brawler dps).  So I would personally just be happy with your massive CAs.  For most purposes, the brawler classes do seem relatively balanced all things being equal.  It really just seems like what flavor you want your dps in CAs or autoattack.  I'm just personally having trouble deciding.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>try upgrading it to something higher than app4.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>at adep1-master1, it will boost mitigation nicely, for a recurring power cost lower than your health regen per tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think about the way you have to boost in combat health regen if this is still not sufficient.  There are items with regen on them.  You can respec, and take the health  regen bonus instead of the max health.  I'm pretty sure that taking the health regen trait in a respec at 70 would MORE than compensate me for the health over time that the spirit line drains when it is up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've never seemed to have a problem with its recurrent health cost tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What race did you choose, and which trait choices?  You may have made some detrimental choices....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My recurring power cost, only self buffed hp, is 115 hitpoints per tick. When I'm group buffed with my wife's inquisitor, I'm looking at nearly 140. I don't remember what it was when I was raid buffed with three healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's the in-combat max regen? 1.5 x level? So at 70 (when I will no doubt have even more hitpoints), I'd have a max regen of 105. I'm still looking at quite a large setback, even if I could find enough regen that stacks.</DIV> <DIV>Did you know that Regeneration (and Flowing Thought for that matter) of the same amounts are considered the same spell and won't stack with each other? So three regen 2s will only give me regen 2... I need to find a regen 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe I should convince my wife to play her warden more... i think they have a built in regen in their group buffs (if I remember my fury buffs right).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problem is, this cost will only ever go up, since it's % based. If I got 20k hitpoints, I'd start losing 400 hitpoints per tick, for the same amount of mitigation as before. This wasn't as noticeable a problem at the lower level, but now that we are reaching 10k hitpoints, the discrepency is becoming clearer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and my choices were always for increasing stamina, with power regen for the two traits. Also, T7 equipment has allowed me to greatly boost my stamina and hitpoints without losing out on the other physical stats.. so max hp would be my focus you could say.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 AM</span>

[selch]

<DIV>FYI: Self-Haste of Monk and Self-Mitigation of Bruisers TAKES same Health and it is 1% of total Health per tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I find it unbelievable it takes 62% of your health in 3 minutes fight. Yet may be if you never regen. But yet considering mitigation helps you get lesser damage. You should still be thankful for that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:20 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>try upgrading it to something higher than app4.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>at adep1-master1, it will boost mitigation nicely, for a recurring power cost lower than your health regen per tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think about the way you have to boost in combat health regen if this is still not sufficient.  There are items with regen on them.  You can respec, and take the health  regen bonus instead of the max health.  I'm pretty sure that taking the health regen trait in a respec at 70 would MORE than compensate me for the health over time that the spirit line drains when it is up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've never seemed to have a problem with its recurrent health cost tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What race did you choose, and which trait choices?  You may have made some detrimental choices....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My recurring power cost, only self buffed hp, is 115 hitpoints per tick. When I'm group buffed with my wife's inquisitor, I'm looking at nearly 140. I don't remember what it was when I was raid buffed with three healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's the in-combat max regen? 1.5 x level? So at 70 (when I will no doubt have even more hitpoints), I'd have a max regen of 105. I'm still looking at quite a large setback, even if I could find enough regen that stacks.</DIV> <DIV>Did you know that Regeneration (and Flowing Thought for that matter) of the same amounts are considered the same spell and won't stack with each other? So three regen 2s will only give me regen 2... I need to find a regen 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe I should convince my wife to play her warden more... i think they have a built in regen in their group buffs (if I remember my fury buffs right).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problem is, this cost will only ever go up, since it's % based. If I got 20k hitpoints, I'd start losing 400 hitpoints per tick, for the same amount of mitigation as before. This wasn't as noticeable a problem at the lower level, but now that we are reaching 10k hitpoints, the discrepency is becoming clearer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and my choices were always for increasing stamina, with power regen for the two traits. Also, T7 equipment has allowed me to greatly boost my stamina and hitpoints without losing out on the other physical stats.. so max hp would be my focus you could say.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <SPAN class=date_text>04-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:55 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Your supplying bad info Raidi. </P> <P>1) In combat health regen is 3x lvl at lvl 70 thats 210 hp well beyond the 1% every 6 secs cost for the mitigation buff.</P> <P>2) FT and HP regen of the same type DO STACK. So 3 regen 2's give you 6 item hp regen. item hp regen has its own cap of (3 x lvl x 0.5). 210 hp regen total per 6 secs.</P> <P>3) problem is your hp total is essentially capped beyond adding stam to cap and the fact that healers buffs dont stack in the same class. Your reliant upon pure item HP. Even raid buffed yoru hardpressed to sustain anythign over 10k hp. 20k is impossible.  In order for the mitigation buff to drain more hp then max in combat hp regen you would need over 21,000 hp. Thats not an easy feat by any means </P> <P>Finally yoru wifes warden won't help you they dont have an in combat HP regen. Furys do however,  as do zerkers, bards and another classes i cant recall.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>

[Maelwy]

<P>heres the details, to shed some light on the spirit line - our current t7 upgrade at adept 1 adds 979 mit, adept 3 1142, and master is 1306 - </P> <P>the initial casting cost is 85 health to cast it. It's recurrent health cost is 85 health every 6 seconds.  </P> <P>85 health every 6 seconds isn't killing your healers.  It's approximately 1% of my bruisers health in a normal group.  That means it's not even denting your normal health regen, either.</P> <P>However, that mitigation buff is definately saving you more than 85 damage every 6 seconds, unless you're fighting low greens or greys.</P> <P> </P> <P>Definately a spell worth having and using regularly.  </P>

[Deeds]

<P>Gungo, I think you are forgeting that these classes give DPS buffs and or procs (and some of them haste AND dps):</P> <P>Coercer, Dirge, Berserker, Furry, Inquisitor</P> <P> </P> <P>so please dont tell me its "harder" for them to get DPS buffs</P> <P>Hell, if anthing, its easier to for monks to cap because they START out close to 100% haste and with str AA line 20% dps.  While you START out with what, 25% dps (thats even if you have master 1) and 15-20% haste from items. Oh ya our UBER procs equal out the eqation, LOL.</P> <P>I love my bruiser and would never switch, but please, that post by Moorgard ignores all the parser FACTS, and I cant just sit here and not say anything when all the data shows otherwise.</P> <P>Tzing Tao</P>

[Rrawl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <P>the initial casting cost is 85 health to cast it. It's recurrent health cost is 85 health every 6 seconds.  </P> <P>85 health every 6 seconds isn't killing your healers.  It's approximately 1% of my bruisers health in a normal group.  That means it's not even denting your normal health regen, either.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm not a bruiser, but I'm assuming your health drain skill does in fact cost 1% of total health... the Monk haste does. If you buff up to 11k hps it costs 110, but it you're at 7700 it costs 77, and so forth... FYI</P>

[Maelwy]

no, its a set cost, not a percentage based cost.

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> no, its a set cost, not a percentage based cost.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are you sure? Did you remove some armor with STA and recheck value?</P> <P> </P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <DIV>The only reason I bring up monks is because they are our brothers, and we can directly compare our lines. So we can see what isn't working on our side, and how it's working well on the monk side, and say "we want something that works well like that".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At master 1, our mit for health ability grants us about 15% more mitigation for the cost of 62% of our health over 3 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means we need to take 4 times our max health in damage in 3 minutes to break even on this ability. And I'm sorry, but 15% mitigation on a 3k hit is still over 2500 damage... plus you are draining your health during this. You are still going to be taxing the healers, even if you use this ability. Really, I've NEVER successfully used this ability to tank big hitting mobs... it's always been outside factors, like spammed wards + regens on me, or stacked slow/attack debuffs on the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the dev's can see what people do and use, then I'd like to know what numbers they have on the amount of bruisers that actually use this ability. Cuz right now, I only ever use it in "i'm gonna die anyways" emergencies, with "ooh look at that" factor of hitting 60% mitigation when stacked with our other mit buff and defensive stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly, it always seemed off too... that we get a defensive ability where monks get a straight up attack one. Not even because "bruisers are more offense, monks are more defense". Rather, it's strange because they are twin lines, but go in opposite directions. And since ours is used once in a blue moon, and arguably useless, it would be nice to see it change into a similar but "bruiserish" ability comparitive to the monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean... I'd use a +DPS for health ability all the time! About as often as a DPSing monk uses their haste!</DIV> <DIV>And who cares if we stretch a little closer to the DPS cap? For one thing, we'd be less reliant on others for buffing, which means they can buff others, or aren't needed in our group to flourish. Which means we bring something more to the group/raid than a useless health draining mitigation buff. As it stands, we can self buff ourselves to max 24% DPS with our group buff. That's it. So even with a 30-40% buff that costs health, we'd still not even approach being maxed either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... and if +DPS increased proc damage too, then it could be directly comparable to haste, and make our procs much more worth it with very little tweaking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... But I'm not holding my breath on any of this.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This skill is only useful when tanking epic mobs (and some hard hitting heroic named like in HoF, but they're very rare)... but 99% of the brusiers do NOT tank them - that makes this skill useless! I'd be very happy if they change this skill to +dps... but I really doubt soe will ever do it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><p>Message Edited by QQFatman on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:45 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> no, its a set cost, not a percentage based cost.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I just checked in game, it costs 2% of your max hp every 6sec. Monks' self haste costs 1% max hp every 3sec, so they're basically the same at cost, but monk's one is a toggle skill with no recast.<BR>

[Maelwy]

<P>kk, never noticed a fluctuation in the cost, but It is listed as a health amount cost, not a percentage of health.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Either way...even at 2%,  this is next to nothing when considering our own health regen in combat.  Add a regen item or two, and you're still regenning more than this costs.  Take the appropriate trait/trainings and you wont ever worry about this miniscule amount.</P> <P>The damage it saves you from taking from the average encounter will make the healers job much easier than a buff that roughly uses about as much health as your in combat regen provides.</P> <P>However, that being said...  you might also want to look at your healers - reactive based healers have a harder time with us than shamans or druids.   All healers have 2 major types of heals - temps/inquis have reactives + larger single heals.  their reactives mostly go to waste on us.  Shamans Ward + heal - much more efficient use of power per healer effort, and druids regen + heal - their regens do not rely on us taking lots of little hits to proc their healing effects.</P> <P>So grab an appropriate healer type as your main healer, preferably one who knows what they are doing, and if they complain about that buff, i'd laugh at em, and replace them with another healer the next chance possible</P> <P> </P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Maelwys1 wrote:</DIV> <DIV>kk, never noticed a fluctuation in the cost, but It is listed as a health amount cost, not a percentage of health.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way...even at 2%,  this is next to nothing when considering our own health regen in combat.  Add a regen item or two, and you're still regenning more than this costs.  Take the appropriate trait/trainings and you wont ever worry about this miniscule amount.</DIV> <DIV>The damage it saves you from taking from the average encounter will make the healers job much easier than a buff that roughly uses about as much health as your in combat regen provides.</DIV> <DIV>However, that being said...  you might also want to look at your healers - reactive based healers have a harder time with us than shamans or druids.   All healers have 2 major types of heals - temps/inquis have reactives + larger single heals.  their reactives mostly go to waste on us.  Shamans Ward + heal - much more efficient use of power per healer effort, and druids regen + heal - their regens do not rely on us taking lots of little hits to proc their healing effects.</DIV> <DIV>So grab an appropriate healer type as your main healer, preferably one who knows what they are doing, and if they complain about that buff, i'd laugh at em, and replace them with another healer the next chance possible</DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV><BR>A level 70 brusier should have at least 6k max hp, so this skill costs 120 hp a tick. At level 70, you have a base in-combat hp regen of 7 a tick. T7 regen items give you about 3-6 a tick in combat hp regen each. So the 2% cost is far fomr "next to nothing," it's very noticeable! Also we cant turn it on and off like monk's self haste buff, becuase it has a 3 mins recast timer!</DIV><p>Message Edited by QQFatman on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 PM</span>

[Maelwy]

<P>costs me 135 at adept 1 with 340 stam or with 325 stam when i actually examine the skill every 6 secs.</P> <P>I gain 11 health per 6 second tick on in combat regen - with NO regen items on.</P> <P>so actual cost in health per 6 seconds is 124.  </P> <P>I run 31.9 mitigation in the ghostly wraps, without the buff.  with the buff - 45.4 - 13.5% mitigation extra mitigation (at adept 1)</P> <P> </P> <P>Basically the mob has to be able to do 1000 damage  for the buff to save me 135 pts of damage - in 6 seconds.  </P> <P>As most bruisers are aware, most heroic mobs can hit us for 3-5k on major attacks, and in the hundreds to low thousand point range on autoattack damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now...if it still doesn't make sense to  you to use it...please don't.  I don't need you to use it for myself to see the benefits.</P> <P>costs - under 2% of my max health, if this buff is up consistently IN COMBAT for 3 minutes solid...yes, it will cost you just shy of 60% of your overall health.  </P> <P>However, the buff is used generally only when things get hairy...multiple adds, epic mobs turning on you, etc, where the mitigation is key.  </P> <P>3700 pts of damage in 3 minutes.  if it's not saving you at least that much damage,  yes its a detriment.    But i'd highly doubt that (if used correctly) it's not gonna save you a LOT more than that.</P> <P> </P> <P>and...it can be turned off in combat, btw.  just cancel its effects...</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Maelwys1 on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:02 PM</span>

[OperationsX]

<DIV>Oh both of you classes get over yourselves, both you T3 dps classes are overpowered, replacing tank role and dps role all in one toon outdamaging all the T2 dps and most of the T1 dps on mostly all raids thanks to haste, AA's and procs being overpowered for fighters. No dang fighter should be outdpsing mages and predators on raids and that's what happens all the time due to AE's killing pets and dumbfire pets, draining mana, stifling ect for both summoner and sorcerer and slowing em down meanwhile the hasted brawlers with all its mighty HP and mitigation compared to the robe wearers continue to pound on the mob with all its raid buffs and procs with Auto attack while everyone is oop, continuing to do insane amounts of damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh btw I use Advanced Combat Tracker too</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:54 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>Who supplies those procs? And haste and DPS buffs?</P> <P>Last i checked it was the wizard/assasin/conjuror procs, bard and enchanter dps and haste that made raid parses so high for fighters.</P>

[ganjookie]

rousing cry line = DPS buff<div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>my point ganjookie is he is basing bruiser dps as being overpowered compared to other T1 dps. While the dps we achieve is not possible w/o thier buffs. Utimately any melee class can acheive the same increase with  haste, dps, proc, and double atk. As has been shown acorss the boards. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>04-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:48 PM</span>

[PhozFa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <p>Who supplies those procs? And haste and DPS buffs?</p> <p>Last i checked it was the wizard/assasin/conjuror procs, bard and enchanter dps and haste that made raid parses so high for fighters.</p><hr></blockquote>reason FTW! I like how people never talk about that. I can't read the dps solo as i can in a raid mainly due to the reasons listed above. just buffs tripleing my solo dps/haste without proc buffs are amazing. I bet if you could parse the dps one class adds to thier own dps the numbers would be alot diffrent. To another posters above. Since when was our DOT mit buff % based and not a static number? I'm gonna check in gmae but i feel your wrong EDIT : checked in game, yea your right <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by PhozFate on <span class=date_text>04-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>It gives you a specific number for health drained, but it's the same thing as Sprint... no matter how much your max health goes up or down it's always going to be 2% of it. Just like Sprint is always 15% to cast, and 10% every 3 seconds (or something like that).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes... the only reason we PARSE high, is because we have so many buffs from other classes. Technically, the damage we are doing are caused by those other classes, so when it comes down to it, they are adding that DPS to the fight, not us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's a world of difference between PARSING high, and what you bring to the group. Fighters aren't t1 DPS, but we parse really well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they could attach the name of the proc's to the person who cast them instead of the person who is proc'ing them... I think we'd see a significant difference in the parsed DPS tiers.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR>This skill is only useful when tanking epic mobs (and some hard hitting heroic named like in HoF, but they're very rare)... but 99% of the brusiers do NOT tank them - that makes this skill useless! I'd be very happy if they change this skill to +dps... but I really doubt soe will ever do it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Funny I was just saying the other day how I wish our haste for hp buff was a mit for hp buff like yours.</P> <P>Mit is huge in this game, and 1400 mit for a little hp is nothing to sneeze at.</P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR>This skill is only useful when tanking epic mobs (and some hard hitting heroic named like in HoF, but they're very rare)... but 99% of the brusiers do NOT tank them - that makes this skill useless! I'd be very happy if they change this skill to +dps... but I really doubt soe will ever do it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Funny I was just saying the other day how I wish our haste for hp buff was a mit for hp buff like yours.</P> <P>Mit is huge in this game, and 1400 mit for a little hp is nothing to sneeze at.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Becasue you tank a lot... but as i said, most of brusiers / monks do not tank epics - or do not tank at all. A mitigation buff does nothing when you're not tanking.<BR>

[ganjookie]

<div><font color="#3333ff"><font color="#3399ff">Gotcha</font>, that makes <font color="#3366ff">perfect sense</font></font><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>my point ganjookie is he is basing bruiser dps as being overpowered compared to other T1 dps. While the dps we achieve is not possible w/o thier buffs. Utimately any melee class can acheive the same increase with  haste, dps, proc, and double atk. As has been shown acorss the boards. </p><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">04-29-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[PhozFa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> QQFatman wrote: <div></div> <div></div>This skill is only useful when tanking epic mobs (and some hard hitting heroic named like in HoF, but they're very rare)... but 99% of the brusiers do NOT tank them - that makes this skill useless! I'd be very happy if they change this skill to +dps... but I really doubt soe will ever do it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote></div> <p>Funny I was just saying the other day how I wish our haste for hp buff was a mit for hp buff like yours.</p> <p>Mit is huge in this game, and 1400 mit for a little hp is nothing to sneeze at.</p><hr></blockquote>I much prefer to have the mit buff over a haste buff. True most bruisers don't tank HoF and other things. But why aren't most tanking those things? It can be done. Also trying to look at it from thier side do you think a monk ever feels their skill is useless when they are in a group and they don't need the haste? <div></div><p>Message Edited by PhozFate on <span class=date_text>05-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 AM</span>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR>This skill is only useful when tanking epic mobs (and some hard hitting heroic named like in HoF, but they're very rare)... but 99% of the brusiers do NOT tank them - that makes this skill useless! I'd be very happy if they change this skill to +dps... but I really doubt soe will ever do it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Funny I was just saying the other day how I wish our haste for hp buff was a mit for hp buff like yours.</P> <P>Mit is huge in this game, and 1400 mit for a little hp is nothing to sneeze at.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT size=3>I dunno about whether I'd prefer the MIT over the haste (I wouldn't) but didn't someone say they'd rather have the self invis than the mit buff? This is nuts. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>The mit buff is pretty useful, I find - and I don't even raid tank atm. If you're MA or even if you just catch aggro from an epic - an Adept III Deadly Spirit can be a lifesaver. And using it on tough named etc is a must too. Maybe I'm missing something but I think it's a pretty good CA.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>(Hint to PvPers - get this Adept III NOW)</FONT></P>

[Tamo]

<DIV>Quote from Kymi: Also trying to look at it from thier side do you think a monk ever feels their skill is useless when they are in a group and they don't need the haste?<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly. As a monk I can easily get my self up to 100% haste and that really accomplishes nothing. I still get out DPS'd by Assassins and Rangers and BRUISERS and throw in a Beserker or 2. Not to mention any mage type class that isn't slacking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the "T1" DPS classes are complaining about being out DPS'd by a brawler of some form then they aren't doing their "job". Plain and simple. Its the fact that they got lazy and never thought we would capable of these numbers. Its shock thats all it is shock.</DIV>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tamo wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the "T1" DPS classes are complaining about being out DPS'd by a brawler of some form then they aren't doing their "job". Plain and simple. Its the fact that they got lazy and never thought we would capable of these numbers. Its shock thats all it is shock.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, because people who play Brawlers play harder than people who play other classes.... is that the argument you're going to present the devs?<BR>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tamo wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the "T1" DPS classes are complaining about being out DPS'd by a brawler of some form then they aren't doing their "job". Plain and simple. Its the fact that they got lazy and never thought we would capable of these numbers. Its shock thats all it is shock.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, because people who play Brawlers play harder than people who play other classes.... is that the argument you're going to present the devs?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's not the t1 classes complaining about brawlers specifically.  It's the complaint that most of the t1 classes have seen nerf after nerf to their dps, while the 2nd and 3rd tier classes haven't been modified appropriately in balance to the nerfs the t1 classes have seen.  </P> <P>In halls of seeing last night, we saw wizards, warlocks and rangers parsing in the 500-700 dps range fairly consistently...while certain classes were parsing 800-1000 dps on the same fight.</P> <P>This was not one fight, it was quite a few.  </P> <P> </P> <P>But that's not what this thread is about.  This thread is about monk vs bruiser, and finding some parity between the two.  please redirect further discussion...</P> <P> </P>

[Ishya]

<div><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Corasik wrote: <div></div> <div>Lack of haste for bruisers certainly does hurt compared to monks, and I 'thought' that bruisers were supposed to be slightly more 'offensive' than monks, with worse avoidance and slightly worse overall at tanking. <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>Bruiser and monk damage output, in the overall game-wide sense, is intended to be very close together. We've never made any statement that bruisers should always outdamage monks. There are, however, situations where each has a slight edge, because they arrive at their DPS in somewhat different ways. The simple version of the overall picture is this: monks land more attacks for lower damage each, whereas bruisers land fewer attacks for greater damage each. Monks can achieve very high haste with their own abilities; they can reach 100% on their own if they are willing (though not without a cost), and can hit that threshold pretty easily in the right group. Haste means more autoattack rounds in a given time frame, providing more chances for a weapon to proc and more chances for autoattacks to crit. Bruisers arrive at their damage numbers through a combination of procs, their DPS buff, and higher base damage. For example, bruiser autoattack damage is slightly higher than that of a monk, which means that any associated crits will generally also be higher. Therefore double attacks will also hit harder, as opposed to the monk which gets more of them. The bruiser DPS buff gives a slightly higher percentage than the comparable monk buff gives of haste. Bruisers also get an additional damage proc in their Roughhousing line that monks don't. In solo situations, obviously the haste of the monk comes in very handy. The potential downside of all that self haste can be seen in groups, where the haste-capped monk might not benefit from of the haste buffs coming from other members. The bruiser can take advantage of those haste buffs while also having lots of headroom to get additional DPS buffs. But in any case, I don't think either class can make a valid claim to feel underpowered when loaded with a wide range of group buffs. The monk offensive stance gives haste while the bruiser stance gives a proc. The effect on overall damage output calculates to be very close together, even though some bruisers would rather the stance gave a DPS boost instead. The idea that the proc on the bruiser offensive line is somehow worthless is a misconception. Bruiser proc damage was balanced around the way it will be after the next live update, not the broken proc-on-each-hit way it was before or procing on double attacks as it is now. (To be clear, double attack achievements for ALL classes were balanced like this, without the intention of additional procs.)</p> <p>Some on the bruiser boards have complained that the Strength achievement line is great for monks but worthless for bruisers. As with most blanket statements, this simply isn't the case. There can certainly be situations in which a monk outdamages a bruiser with this or any other line, but those who try to portray haste as the only important factor in brawler damage output are presenting a very narrow view of the facts.</p> <p>Monks hit faster. Bruisers hit harder. That does not mean the two classes are always equal, or that monks are always better, or that bruisers are always better. Just because someone can come up with a situation where one has an advantage does not mean in and of itself that either class is broken. I'm not saying that such discussion is meaningless, but when it comes to where they sit in the overall scheme of DPS, monks and bruisers don't have a lot to complain about. They are both extremely versatile classes that pack a considerable punch.</p><hr></blockquote>will they still be similar after next patch (lu24 and more changes on test)? seems to me bruiser got a few adjustments on the dps coming up ( lowing critchance AP - lowering some CA's with about 7-12%)</div>