How does Offensive Stance work exactly?

[mathd]

  I assumed, perhaps naively, that engulfing fists worked like what it says it does. However, from reading these forums, it seems it does not.  What it says is that it has a 10% chance to proc on melee hit but this doesnt seem to be accurate. Could someone give me a rundown on how it works? From what ive seen on the forums, it seems like it has a less than 10% chance to both proc on melee swings and on CAs.  What Im really getting at though, is how do I maximize the procs? Right now im using a 2h blunt, if Im in offensive stance alot should I consider switching to 2 1handers to increase this? Or, as some seem to be saying, its not worth it as the procs add barely any dps.<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mathdog wrote:  I assumed, perhaps naively, that engulfing fists worked like what it says it does. However, from reading these forums, it seems it does not.  What it says is that it has a 10% chance to proc on melee hit but this doesnt seem to be accurate. Could someone give me a rundown on how it works? From what ive seen on the forums, it seems like it has a less than 10% chance to both proc on melee swings and on CAs.  What Im really getting at though, is how do I maximize the procs? Right now im using a 2h blunt, if Im in offensive stance alot should I consider switching to 2 1handers to increase this? Or, as some seem to be saying, its not worth it as the procs add barely any dps.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Exactly why we are complaining about it , IT SUCKS BIGTIME atm :smileysad:

[Mathe]

<div></div>10% does not mean 1 in 10. It means less than that. Everytime you make a hit, you have a chance of it procing, with that low of a chance, more often than not it will not go off. From what I've seen, there doesn't seem to be an enforced percentage used by the game mechanics anyways (that means the game would force it to proc 1 time in every set of 10 strikes, no more or less). It's better than not having a proc, and it is a pretty nice bonus when it goes off, but it is not a major source of damage for Bruisers. The extra crushing skill is far more important than the proc for using the offensive stance.

[PhozFa]

I guess pre-nerf our added proc did ALOT of damage maybe we werne't supposed. dunno. But what i do know about our off stacne compared to other classes is theirs are more consistant. Monks get haste, pally get STR/INT, SKs get huge INT (dunno about warriors). But all those classes don't depend on luck like us. When our added effect happens its more like "hey thats nice".<div></div>

[Mathe]

<div></div><div></div><p>Berserker, Assassin, and Ranger all have 10% procs on their offensive stance. Swashbucklers and Brigands have 20% procs on theirs. Not sure about the percentage, but Necromancers also have a % proc on their pet offensive stance.</p><p>Also as a note, both Paladin and Shadowknight have percentage proc skills, too.</p><p>Consistent doesn't mean better. Guardians get a massive improvement to their STR in their offensive stance. Doesn't make them all that much better at dealing damage.The main reason to use the offensive stance isn't the little extra effect, it is the +skill. Actually connecting with hits easily out trumps the extra effects.</p><p>Message Edited by Matheau on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:28 AM</span></p>

[PhozFa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Also as a note, both Paladin and Shadowknight have percentage proc skills, too.</p><p>The main reason to use the offensive stance isn't the little extra effect, it is the +skill. Actually connecting with hits easily out trumps the extra effects.</p><p>Message Edited by Matheau on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:28 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>As for the first part, i can't speak for pally but SKs do get a proc skill and they are a joke. 7-8% small lifetaps. One is group one is self. IMO they would balanced mostly against our group dps buff. consistant doesn't mean better. Look at us before. We were procing like mad and that wasn't consistant. but i strongly agree with the second part about using our off stance for the +crushing (soon to be s/c/p). didn't know about the scout stances thanks. wonder why rougues get 20% and everyone else gets 10? whatever <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>PhozFate wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Also as a note, both Paladin and Shadowknight have percentage proc skills, too.</p><p>The main reason to use the offensive stance isn't the little extra effect, it is the +skill. Actually connecting with hits easily out trumps the extra effects.</p><p>Message Edited by Matheau on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:28 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>As for the first part, i can't speak for pally but SKs do get a proc skill and they are a joke. 7-8% small lifetaps. One is group one is self. IMO they would balanced mostly against our group dps buff. consistant doesn't mean better. Look at us before. We were procing like mad and that wasn't consistant. but i strongly agree with the second part about using our off stance for the +crushing (soon to be s/c/p). didn't know about the scout stances thanks. wonder why rougues get 20% and everyone else gets 10? whatever <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Rogues would get 20 % cos its there job to do dps not ours

[PhozFa]

<span><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>PhozFate wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Also as a note, both Paladin and Shadowknight have percentage proc skills, too.</p><p>The main reason to use the offensive stance isn't the little extra effect, it is the +skill. Actually connecting with hits easily out trumps the extra effects.</p><p>Message Edited by Matheau on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:28 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>As for the first part, i can't speak for pally but SKs do get a proc skill and they are a joke. 7-8% small lifetaps. One is group one is self. IMO they would balanced mostly against our group dps buff. consistant doesn't mean better. Look at us before. We were procing like mad and that wasn't consistant. but i strongly agree with the second part about using our off stance for the +crushing (soon to be s/c/p). didn't know about the scout stances thanks. wonder why rougues get 20% and everyone else gets 10? whatever <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Rogues would get 20 % cos its there job to do dps not ours<hr></blockquote>So its a rogues job to do more dps not the T1 dps class predators who also get 10%? No i don't think thats why</span><div></div>

[AnyFreakinNa]

<div></div>>10% does not mean 1 in 10. It means less than that.<p><span>No it doesn't.If you are referring to normal statistics 10% is 1 in 10, not less.As the number of samples grows towards infinity 10% will be exactly 1 in 10.</span></p><div></div>

[Mathe]

<div></div>Actually the Rogue gets 20% because their proc is for much less damage and is also an interrupt.

[Mathe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AnyFreakinName wrote:<div></div>>10% does not mean 1 in 10. It means less than that.<p><span>No it doesn't.If you are referring to normal statistics 10% is 1 in 10, not less.As the number of samples grows towards infinity 10% will be exactly 1 in 10.</span></p><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Technically, only if you go to infinity does it normalize out. However, infinity is a concept not a value and causes very weird things to occur when it is used in place number. For example, for X^2 = X. X can be equal to 1, 0, and infinity. Which would mean 1 = 0 = infinity. That is obviously not true. The reason it works like that is neither 0 or infinity actually exist, they are mathmatical concepts and have no tangible meaning. Any equation involving infinity can only be an estimate because it is inherently wrong. Technically if you have 0 samples, a 10% chance also occurs 1 in 10 times, but there is no group of samples to prove or disprove it.</p><p>However, the reason I was referring too also had to do with the effect being normalized by delay. Most Bruisers use very short delay weapons in their primary slot, which decreases the chance of a proc.</p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>PhozFate wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>PhozFate wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Also as a note, both Paladin and Shadowknight have percentage proc skills, too.</p><p>The main reason to use the offensive stance isn't the little extra effect, it is the +skill. Actually connecting with hits easily out trumps the extra effects.</p><p>Message Edited by Matheau on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:28 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>As for the first part, i can't speak for pally but SKs do get a proc skill and they are a joke. 7-8% small lifetaps. One is group one is self. IMO they would balanced mostly against our group dps buff. consistant doesn't mean better. Look at us before. We were procing like mad and that wasn't consistant. but i strongly agree with the second part about using our off stance for the +crushing (soon to be s/c/p). didn't know about the scout stances thanks. wonder why rougues get 20% and everyone else gets 10? whatever <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Rogues would get 20 % cos its there job to do dps not ours<hr></blockquote>So its a rogues job to do more dps not the T1 dps class predators who also get 10%? No i don't think thats why</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Yup because the rogues DPS is nowhere near predators hence why pred get 10 and rogues get the needed extra boost to bring them up to par  , its all in the name of balance .. </p><p>A  Ranger and An Assassin are T1 DPS</p><p>A Swashie and Brigand are Top T2 Class pushing T1</p>

[Corasik]

<div>10% does mean 1 in 10 over a long enough sample, but EQ2 has a second modifier.</div><div> </div><div>Its 10% only if you use a weapon which has a 3 second delay, so swinging at 20 times a minute, you should 'on average' get 2 procs a minute.</div><div> </div><div>If you wield a 6 delay weapon, EQ2 would automatically give a 20% proc rate, wield a 1.5 delay weapon and it will give a 5% proc rate, so regardless of what weapon you use, you would still average at 2 procs a minute.</div><div> </div><div>Its said (though I have never tested it) that if you use haste, the proc rate is still based on your unhasted weapon speed, so at 100% haste your 6 delay weapon now hits 20 times  a minute, and you could average 4 procs/minute.</div><div> </div><div>Apparently the proc nerf made combat ability skills have a proc rate based on their 'cast time'. Which for most melee skills is 0.5 seconds. This gives a very low chance to proc on any combat ability. If this is true, then a 10% proc would have about a 1.6% chance of going off on a combat art. Unfortunatly as there are long recast timers on brawler skills (with bruisers having the longest of all I think), we simply cant spam sufficient combat arts for any reasonable chance to trigger procs. After all, a 0.5 delay weapon would get 120 swings per minute, so the low proc chance would still even out to the same 2 procs per minute. </div>

[littleman17]

<div>For future refernce, Rangers have a 30% chance on their offensive stance... this may sound high, but it only procs off ranged attacks. And with the nerf to procs, it hardly procs at all anymore (at least not noticibly)...</div><div> </div><div>The proc nerf ruined my bruiser's main damage/hate gain tech...</div><div> </div><div>I would lead off with fierce punch and follow up with thundering fists followed by one hundred hand slap. This combo would get me some serious damage from all 5 procs of TF and several procs from the rough housing line...</div><div> </div><div>But alas my main taunt has been nerfed... our two direct taunts seem to hardly cut it sometimes.</div>

[sarsippi]

<div></div><div></div><p>*ignore me, got posted twice some how*</p><p>Message Edited by sarsippius on <span class="date_text">03-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:21 AM</span></p>

[sarsippi]

<div></div><div></div><p>I would guess the 10% procs is just that, 10%. Its not a lot of damage though. I cant say I've actually parsed it, not how often it proced anyway, just overall damage. I did parse my FD one night. I believe I had an 82% chance to FD and it was annoying the heck out of me cause it didnt seem like it was working as often as it should. So, I flopped around 100 times. Guess how many times it failed? 18 times! lol. Exactly the 18% it should've failed. So, assuming the procs on weapons arent broke, I'm guessing they are doing as intended and its not some mathematical equation thats not causing it to procs 10% of the time.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by sarsippius on <span class="date_text">03-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:20 AM</span></p>