*** Offensive Stance issues ***

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><div></div><p>ISSUES</p><ul><li>Offensive stance nerfed unarmed</li><li>Proc rate nerfed with skills</li><li>Proc nerfed to 1H/2H only</li><li>Proc nerfed to apply only on first hit of multi hit skills</li><li>Bruiser offensive stance only relly on procs and could use some DPS boost to be on par with monk</li></ul><p>result : DPS addition from procs average 4% at lvl 24 and between 3 and 5% at lvl 60+, this is not offensive! (monk gets 41% haste at lvl 63)</p><p>comments</p><p>Message Edited by Ashdaren on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:02 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ashdaren on <span class="date_text">04-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:46 PM</span></p>

[Kuld]

<div></div><p>Most of my CA's were adept III or master up to 60, i have decent gear, but not the best. </p><p>Im not into the whole numbers and %s and this dps or that dps...none of that matters to me.  What matters to me is what I can do.  Regardless of what the spells tell me, what I know is....If im in defensive stance, it takes me ALOT longer to kill something then if I was in offensive.  There is a very noticable diff between offensive and defensive stances, what the numbers say I really dont believe are justified.</p><p>Just my thoughts, I know many ppl out there are number crunchers, and that is fine, but I prefer to see the actual end result.</p>

[jwalt]

Good to see that there are a few people that still hold that mentality and just play the game, enjoying it for what it is.  I never could understand people turning their MMORPGs into a $12.95/month mathematics session.<i></i>

[Vorham]

<div></div><div>Don't get me started on our Engulf stances.  They are a joke now.  Chance to proc is way too small, doesnt work on ranged attacks, doesn't land on mobs with fire immunities... then go get a group where you have 70%+ haste and see what a monks stances do for him.  Its disgusting. </div>

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vorham wrote:<div></div><div>Don't get me started on our Engulf stances.  They are a joke now.  Chance to proc is way too small, doesnt work on ranged attacks, doesn't land on mobs with fire immunities... then go get a group where you have 70%+ haste and see what a monks stances do for him.  Its disgusting. </div><hr></blockquote><p>I totally agree with you and I could even add that the gap is getting bigger when you consider how much haste improve the STR AA line or the 2 proc in the AA by simply doubling the proc rate.Even though we had a DPS modificator on our offensive stance it would not make up for it. Though it would be a great step in the right direction.</p><p> </p>

[djinnz]

<div>to add insult to injury, stirring cry master 1 = 21% dps mod, rabid cry adept 3 = 21% dps mod....... wquick way to waste 4-5 pp</div>

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><p>I beleive we should consolidate this post, the bruiser community is not by far the most populated and our dedicated forum looks like a "I m a wanabee Bruiser how do I ...?? " stuff.</p><p>The nerf proc hit us almost as bad as the ranger community considering we are the king of multi hit attacks and big Proc. Though when they nerfed the procs they did it in 3 ways which cumulate badly for us :</p><ul><li>nerf offensive stance proc when unarmed</li><li>nerf multi hit skills proc</li><li>nerf dual weild proc</li></ul><p>I want to stress out that I am not complaining about the bruisers damage skills and abilities, but simply about the fact that our offensive stance is now totally gimped and that a reversal in the situation placed Monk/haste VS Bruiser/proc something to laugh at. And I wont go into the benefits of haste vs proc with the achievement as it have been already discussed.</p><p>The devs recognised the big impact of proc with the ranger and fixed many skills to overcome it, though no-one ever mentionned looking into the bruiser effectiveness post changes and trust me there is a big difference.</p><p> I hope more bruiser will post their feeling about it as it really deserve a look at from the devs.</p>

[Danter]

<div></div><p>I posted when I heard about the "Proc Change" in beta this would hurt Rangers the most and we would be next in line.</p><p>Right now, Blistering Fist's Engulf at level 68 is parsing in between 4-6% of my total damage at Adept 3.  Provoking Stance's Engulf is parsing in between 2-4% of my total damage at Master 1.  Rumble is parsing in at about 2-4% at Adept 3.</p><p>Our offensive stance isn't worth using anymore.  In fact, I never use it unless I'm fighting orange cons.  With decent +crushing gear or when grouping with a Guardian or a Dirge against yellow cons, the difference between Provoking Stance and Blistering Fists is about 5% of my total damage.  Is -10% avoidance and a loss of 250 mit worth an extra 5% damage?  No [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing way.</p><p>-Kald, 68 Bruiser Permafrost</p>

[Parasite]

<div>Hello There</div><div> </div><div>I am Daveke teh  66th Seasoned Bruiser on the splitpaw server.</div><div>I have played a bruiser from the start with interruption to play warlock for a while.</div><div> </div><div>So what do i think of those topics.</div><div>A) Achievements : I don't think there is anything bad with them, altough i am yet to see the use of any of the 8point skills.</div><div>The only skill i see usefull is the INT line final. 75% crit boost and 1300 Mitigation gained. Very fun and nice but when am i ever going to be under 30% to make this spell anything usefull ? I have say 8K hp in a good group so that would mean i would have 2500HP left for the skill to become active. Seems to me that i will get healed at that point or i get killed really ... Maybe not if i have 1300 additional mitigation , not shure if it does that much. The only real use i see to this skill is being able to kill green mobs 30% faster if you take the time to sit down and get hit on every now and then to stay under 30% of hp.</div><p>Would prefer to have some skills  like zerker / Warrior who get Big mitigation boost (<em>not shure bout that one</em>) or lose all disadvantages from ofensive or defensive stances as their final line skills.But the passive defense you get plus recast timers of all your skills and crit chance ain't that bad at all.</p><div> </div><div>B) It would take a number cruncher to check this one out: Does our offensive stances proc plus our DPS improvement spell scale out to an identical monk ?<strong> I must say if monks can get to 100% Haste, Why can't we get to say at least 50% DPS Improvement? </strong>Don't forget monks get a penalty with their haste on the mobs with a Damageshield ! ( yes i know not many mobs do but some ... ) They get twice the damage from it. Not that it is such a big deal and i would gladly make the trade off myself but that's just how it is and depending on playstile it might hurt a lot (soloing).</div><div> </div><div>C) Yes The Proc Nerf did hit us a lot. But actually it kinda stayed the same. Believe it or not but i think we get more procs now on our CA's then we used to do since most of us use dual wield weapons our weapons delay was low thus low proc chance, now we have a 1minute CA cast thus greatly improved our chance for individual skills to proc. And I am under the impression we can still have different procs on 1 CA or this is just a graphic glitch in chat log showing 2 procs after 1 hit</div><div>My Questions concenrning procs:</div><ul><li><strong>Is it possible that the same proc can't proc twice on 1 CA but that u can have 2 different procs on the same CA? </strong></li><li><strong>What happens when usually 2 procs would go off ? Wich proc passes ? The one with the lowest chance of succes or the one with the highest ? Is the proc % Passed on to the next CA ? Some respons to this would be nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></strong></li><li><strong>IF people are hasted does the proc base on the new hasted speed or the unasted speed of the weapon ?</strong></li></ul><p><strong>D) When a mob resists a taunt, the recast timer is only a few seconds instead of 8. When you miss your kidney punch you still have to wait the full minute to recast it. What is up with that ? Ok i know you casted it but still why do mages get this privelege on all of their skills then and do fighters get stuck with long recast timers?</strong></p><div>Yes it would be nice for quarrel to proc twice again on multi-hits, but i guess thats just how it goes i guess.</div><div>All in all i am pretty happy with everything and i know things will get fixed. The Bruiser class has always been down on the "to fix" list together with coercer since not many people play those chars. But in time it will balance out.</div><div>If u ask me what to change i'd just say make INT AA line 40-50% to become active and give bruisers group DPS buff a boost that can compare to the monks haste. If yout hit half the speed but twice at hard , you are still the same but in a different way.</div><div>It also fits into the "monks lower recast timers but bruisers higher damage spells" picture.</div><div></div><div>I appologize for any unlogical phrasing or typo's at work and writing this text in pieces in between little assignments <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Greetings</div><div> </div><div>Daveke The Boerenzoon</div><div>Splitpaw</div>

[Shakir10]

<div></div><div></div><p>bah, double post.</p><p>Message Edited by Shakir1065 on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:43 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Shakir1065 on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:43 AM</span></p>

[Shakir10]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ashdaren wrote:<div></div><p>ISSUES</p><ul><li><font color="#ffff00">Offensive stance nerfed unarmed</font></li><li><font color="#ffff00">Proc nerfed</font></li><li><font color="#ffff00">DPS addition average 4% at lvl 24 and between 3 and 5% at lvl 60, this is not offensive!</font></li><li><font color="#ffff00">No benefits with AA</font></li></ul><p>comments</p><p>Message Edited by Ashdaren on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:02 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><div>Comment:</div><div> </div><div>Yeah, Your a Tank! Monks and Bruisers for the longest time in the great nerfing of guardians had the main argument that they are tanks. So. Who cares about your DPS. Your a tank, tank, and nothing but a tank. You are not DPS, and I guess according to the devs, you were never meant to be DPS.</div><div>But don't worry, your class is one of the Dev jewels. I'm sure if you whine enough they will put you up with rangers for DPS.</div>

[Corasik]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shakir1065 wrote:<div> </div><div>Yeah, Your a Tank! Monks and Bruisers for the longest time in the great nerfing of guardians had the main argument that they are tanks. So. Who cares about your DPS. Your a tank, tank, and nothing but a tank. You are not DPS, and I guess according to the devs, you were never meant to be DPS.</div><div>But don't worry, your class is one of the Dev jewels. I'm sure if you whine enough they will put you up with rangers for DPS.</div><hr></blockquote>Tanking suits me just fine, but that does make me wonder why the Mitigation AA was removed during beta <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It wasnt a huge mititgation buff, but it did help smooth out the random number generator a little.

[Danter]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Parasiteke wrote:<div> </div><div>C) Yes The Proc Nerf did hit us a lot. But actually it kinda stayed the same. Believe it or not but i think we get more procs now on our CA's then we used to do since most of us use dual wield weapons our weapons delay was low thus low proc chance, now we have a 1minute CA cast thus greatly improved our chance for individual skills to proc. And I am under the impression we can still have different procs on 1 CA or this is just a graphic glitch in chat log showing 2 procs after 1 hit</div><div>My Questions concenrning procs:</div><ul><li><strong>Is it possible that the same proc can't proc twice on 1 CA but that u can have 2 different procs on the same CA? </strong></li><li><strong>What happens when usually 2 procs would go off ? Wich proc passes ? The one with the lowest chance of succes or the one with the highest ? Is the proc % Passed on to the next CA ? Some respons to this would be nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></strong></li><li><strong>IF people are hasted does the proc base on the new hasted speed or the unasted speed of the weapon ?</strong></li></ul><p><strong>D) When a mob resists a taunt, the recast timer is only a few seconds instead of 8. When you miss your kidney punch you still have to wait the full minute to recast it. What is up with that ? Ok i know you casted it but still why do mages get this privelege on all of their skills then and do fighters get stuck with long recast timers?</strong></p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>If you were using greatflails like me, the proc nerf hit hard.  I used to use 3.8s delay weaps and rely on proc damage.  The Archiac Combine Greatflail which was great for soloing is completely worthless now.  The RGF is also a shadow of its former self when it was great at level 60 before the proc change.</p><p>The proc % is determined by CA cast time, not recast time.  Since all of our CAs except Slap Around and Savage Blows are .5s cast time, you will probably not see a proc from it.</p><p>The odds of Engulf proccing of a .5s cast CA is : .5 / 3.0 * 10 = 1.67% chance</p><p>I wouldn't call this an increase at all.</p><p>Multiple procs can proc off each hit, so Engulf, Gleaming Strike, Quarrel, Shocking Fists, and Mantis Bolt can all proc off the same hit though it's very unlikely.</p><p>I don't think Haste affects the proc rate.  I might be wrong though on this one.</p><p>Spells have a shorter recast time if they are resisted.  Taunts, Mez, and Fear are classified as spells, so if it gets resisted it will have a shorter recast time.  If you're with a Troub and they cast Precision, taunts will proc.  I guess SOE does this to balance out fizzles.  Since CAs can't fizzle, we have to deal with full recast times when they miss.</p><p>-Kald, 68 Bruiser Permafrost</p>

[Parasite]

<div>Ok Thanx for xplaing that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I had no idea</div><div> </div><div>Ok i see now what you are referring to. I clearly missed out the dps boost by using low delay thingy's.</div><div>It wasn't untill the ranger nerf that i knew that CA's proc chance was used on the weapons delay maybe best for me that i didn't know otherwise i would know what i now am missing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>As for the flamer, i don't know where u got the idea we are the dev's pets ... We don't even have adjusted graphs for our class hat yet ... I mean hello ... Ranger get nerfed and now get their damage back whilest we just got nerfed and have to wait for rangers to be fixed before they start on us. So if you don't have constructive comment or good suggestions please flame somewhere else.</div><div> </div><div>Back on the topic, I was wondering:</div><div>"What is the point of telling people they have 10% chance to have a proc go off when using offensive stance just for them to figure out that in reality it is just 1% when using CA's and another % when using a certain delay weapon ?"</div><div> </div><div>Because if that is the case i can completely agree with our friend who started the topic stating that monks have a big overhand on bruisers with their haste compared to our proc. And i strongly suggest they fix it by upping our DPS buff to a descent amount and make it scale to the monks advancement in Haste %. I'll try to get some numbers for it and make a comparization what the damage is for bruisers and monks with non combat art damage using haste and dps.</div><div> </div><div>Greetings</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Ashdaren wrote:<div></div><p>I beleive we should consolidate this post, the bruiser community is not by far the most populated and our dedicated forum looks like a "I m a wanabee Bruiser how do I ...?? " stuff.</p><hr></blockquote><div>I have already made such a thread here:</div><div> </div><div> <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=15065" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=15065</a></div><div> </div><div>There was only one response, so I assumed the community felt it wasn't a needed resource and so never finished updating it. If you think we should have a consolidated "problems" thread then please post your ideas and I'll migrate them to the original posts.</div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Parasiteke wrote:<div>Ok Thanx for xplaing that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I had no idea</div><div> </div><div>Ok i see now what you are referring to. I clearly missed out the dps boost by using low delay thingy's.</div><div>It wasn't untill the ranger nerf that i knew that CA's proc chance was used on the weapons delay maybe best for me that i didn't know otherwise i would know what i now am missing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>As for the flamer, i don't know where u got the idea we are the dev's pets ... We don't even have adjusted graphs for our class hat yet ... I mean hello ... Ranger get nerfed and now get their damage back whilest we just got nerfed and have to wait for rangers to be fixed before they start on us. So if you don't have constructive comment or good suggestions please flame somewhere else.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">/// We are all moorguards babys :smileyvery-happy:</font></div><div> </div><div>Back on the topic, I was wondering:</div><div>"What is the point of telling people they have 10% chance to have a proc go off when using offensive stance just for them to figure out that in reality it is just 1% when using CA's and another % when using a certain delay weapon ?"</div><div> </div><div>Because if that is the case i can completely agree with our friend who started the topic stating that monks have a big overhand on bruisers with their haste compared to our proc. And i strongly suggest they fix it by upping our DPS buff to a descent amount and make it scale to the monks advancement in Haste %. I'll try to get some numbers for it and make a comparization what the damage is for bruisers and monks with non combat art damage using haste and dps.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">/ Yep they do sold dps boost compared to ummmm ? umm well ? we er ? well we got ... nope cant think of nothing :smileywink: , completetly agree btw that our offensive stance sucks bigtime .... cmon guys throw us a bone here !</font></div><div> </div><div>Greetings</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>

[Zolragas]

<div>As far discussion for our stance i started this thread  <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=13238#M13238" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=13238#M13238</a> soon after it was changed and pretty much all i got was</div><div>A: Who cares you lost too many stats  by giving up DW so never tried it</div><div>B: You sucked if you didn't have legendary weapons or better. (barefist almost= legendary weapons pre lu19)</div><div> </div><div>I will concede that as it was, it was a bit over powering. Keep in mind we are supposed to be in the same dps class as bards.  Now the question comes in do we count their buffs in for total dps or just raw dps.  That's the brawler class as a whole though.  The best comparison should be between monks and us.  I would almost say get rid of proc altogether and go for a raw dps boost to make us more like monks as far as stance goes. </div>

[Gungo]

<div></div>I think people tend to just parse the proc damage and totally negate how much +skills add to dps. I do tend to kill faster using offensive stance then the 5% proc damage tends to portray.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<div>To figure that out just remove the engulf proc damage to your dps and see if there is a difference.</div>

[Parasite]

<p>Time For Some Math <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Scenario: Bruiser and Monk With Same Stats Same Gear Using no haste items and a 3sec Delay imbued weapon never missing the target in question and all of their buffs at master I</p><p>Bruiser wil make 20 Hits/Minute with 24% dps boost and 100%haste:A --> Engulf: 10% = 2Hits = 400dmg/procB --> Quarrel: 25% = 5Hits = 200 dmg/procC --> Weapon: 5% = 1Hit = 300dmg/procX -->  Melee Damage: ??? / Hit I have no data on this please fill me in there.</p><p>Thus giving us the formula : ((1.24*X)*20)+(2*A)+(5*B)+(1*C) To Calculate our Bruiser Auto-attack damage on 1 min.</p><p>Monk will make 40 hits with 0% dps boost and 100%haste: Only have weaponproc.Thus Monk Formula: (40*X)+(2*C) As their total autoattack damage.</p><p>If Some1 Can Fill in the X for me plz that would be nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And Once Again name 1 AA xcept for INT That Bruisers are better off with than a Monk due to their haste ...Seems to me AA Were tailored especially for monk and bruisers just have to live with it.Barehanded : Monks get twice the damage since we lost our Barehand offensive procAgi : None of the classes rly got an advantage here on each other, sames to scale out a bit.Sta: Monks get more hits in same time thus more chance to proc mantisWis: Same as STAInt: The Crit Chance might have more effect on the bruisers here not shure tough, but since monks get more avoidance then us they will have better chance at living under 30% hp.</p><p> </p>

[QQ-Fatman]

<div></div>I have a question here about the double attack from the barefist passive skill. Does it make our proc double? Is it's so, I think we can still do good damage since monks dont have the two proc skills we have.

[Parasite]

<div>That is the point m8 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div>Our Proc Damage used to compensate the monk bonus they gained from being hasted,</div><div>Since they nerfed that proc and the proc rate / chance they have gained an advantage.</div><div> </div><div>Double attack will proc double yes but all in all the difference in dps just will be doubled.</div><div> </div><div>Greetings</div>

[Danter]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>QQFatman wrote:<div></div>I have a question here about the double attack from the barefist passive skill. Does it make our proc double? Is it's so, I think we can still do good damage since monks dont have the two proc skills we have.<hr></blockquote><p>With Monk's haste, they'll swing 4 times for every 2 swings we do.  From what I've seen, you can do 300 per swing using fists.  Over a 25s period.</p><p>Facts:  Monk = 100% haste.  Bruiser = +21% DPS.  Fists = 2.5s delay.  Engulf = 400 per hit.  Quarrel = 150 per hit</p><p>Bruiser -> 10 swings, 10 additional double attacks, 2 Engulfs, 4 Quarrels -> 363x20 + 800 + 600 = 8660</p><p>Engulf % = 2.5/3 * 10 = 8.3%</p><p>Quarrel % = 2.5/3 * 25 = 20.8%</p><p>Monk -> 20 swings, 20 additional double attacks -> 300x40 = 12000</p><p>So in this little demonstration, I rounded Engulf up to 10% so it procs twice.  The Monk does substantially more damage than the Bruiser.  When you factor in the DPS mod on the AA with double attack, which I don't know what it is offhand, the gap widens even further.</p><p>-Kald, 69 Bruiser Permafrost</p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div>You arnt factoring in repostes , more attacks = more repostes

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Danterus wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>QQFatman wrote:<div></div>I have a question here about the double attack from the barefist passive skill. Does it make our proc double? Is it's so, I think we can still do good damage since monks dont have the two proc skills we have.<hr></blockquote><p>With Monk's haste, they'll swing 4 times for every 2 swings we do.  From what I've seen, you can do 300 per swing using fists.  Over a 25s period.</p><p>Facts:  Monk = 100% haste.  Bruiser = +21% DPS.  Fists = 2.5s delay.  Engulf = 400 per hit.  Quarrel = 150 per hit</p><p>Bruiser -> 10 swings, 10 additional double attacks, 2 Engulfs, 4 Quarrels -> 363x20 + 800 + 600 = 8660</p><p>Engulf % = 2.5/3 * 10 = 8.3%</p><p>Quarrel % = 2.5/3 * 25 = 20.8%</p><p>Monk -> 20 swings, 20 additional double attacks -> 300x40 = 12000</p><p>So in this little demonstration, I rounded Engulf up to 10% so it procs twice.  The Monk does substantially more damage than the Bruiser.  When you factor in the DPS mod on the AA with double attack, which I don't know what it is offhand, the gap widens even further.</p><p>-Kald, 69 Bruiser Permafrost</p><hr></blockquote><p>Nice math, though you can roughtly reduce our proc damage by 16.7% as you have been very conciliant, not counting that I hardly proc as much as it should due to the 1.6% chance to proc on CA (instead of hitting)</p><p>Which also mean that if we a monk and a bruiser share the same proc (like weapon proc or STA/WIS proc) they will roughtly proc 2 time more increasing the gap even further.</p><p>Message Edited by Ashdaren on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:58 AM</span></p>

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><p>On a side note I would like to emphatize that it is not a race between monk and bruiser autoAttack/AA, most of the complains here are mainly shared to point out that the proc used to be the definition of our uberness and that now that it is fixed we are left with peanuts.</p><p>Where ranger got their skill reviewed and ranged auto attack increased by 35%, we are stuck with a broken offensive stance making the natural monk ability to haste to 100% look uber</p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<div></div>I'd be interested to see what happens when you take a whole picture - CAs, etc... Unfortunately the only monk I know is at least 10 levels lower than me so I can't do any serious testing, only conjecture.

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><p>Now this is the post to make it all clearer</p><p><strong>To those who thinks only ranger were dramaticly affected by the proc change :</strong></p><p>Ranger were dealing uber damage because they used high delay bow (porc way more often) and a tripple attack</p><p>Bruiser were dealing uber damage because they were using multi hit skill (up to 8 hit) and the proc was dealing up to 1K damage at lvl 49. Also using slow weapon or barefist(2.5 delay) occured almost the same result as using a bow.</p><p>Now both ranger and bruiser are fixed toward proc because</p><ul><li>multi hit attack are procing only on first attack</li><li>skill proc on their casting time (0.5 sec for melee skill more for some ranged)</li></ul><p>But compared to ranger bruiser suffered 2 more fix that don't apply to rangers</p><ul><li>only the primary weapon can proc (bow is primary, no effect)</li><li>the barehand proc stance of the bruiser have been nerfed from 1K+ at lvl 49 to 500+ for the lvl 63 upgrade version</li></ul><p>Now I hope it is clear to everyone that bruiser got hugely nerfed with the proc drama</p><p>Though the fix are not yet done here, because ranger got a deserved boost :</p><ul><li>+35% DPS on ranged attack</li><li>Many skills buffed and flavored</li></ul><p><strong></strong> </p><p><strong>Now i would like to answer to those who thinks the offensive stance of Bruiser should not be looked at:</strong></p><p>In all honesty I don't think bruiser should get the same treatment as the ranged post buff. Though I have to point out that our offensive stance went from uber to totally broken, and I will explain why in detail.</p><p>As a matter of fact, haste and DPS are one of the buff the designers are the most used to and have it mastered since long. Since monk offensive stance is based on a Haste boost and through the year never seemed to be broken, I will do a comparaison with our twin brother being confident it won't harm them.</p><p>At lvl 63 the master 1 offensive stance of :</p><ul><li>Monk gives 41% haste</li><li>Bruiser gives 10% chance to proc between 389/648 damage, with 348 STR</li></ul><p>To get an idea of what means 10% chance to proc avrg 520 dmg, let's say we are in the best case possible by not using any skills, just auto-attacking.</p><p>10% chance to proc with a good 2H T7 weapon having 90+DPS and 3 second delay means in heaven that for 10 hits you will proc 1 time, in other words almost <strong>8%damage boost.</strong> In a normal group it falls to <strong>2/5% damage boost</strong> which any parser can confirm as proc don't get buffed.</p><p>Now with a 41% haste boost,you actually get a<strong> 41% DPS boost</strong> (not counting riposte) to auto attack. And I m not adding the nice side effect of the haste buff that also add 41% more chance to proc with any proc buff/ AA proc or weapon proc.</p><p>The conclusion is that in one hand we have <strong>an offensive stance providing</strong> <strong>8% dps boost and in the other hand 41% Dps boost to auto attack</strong>. Before the fixes, the bruiser had a slight advantage over the monks in term of DPS+ proc auto attacking while basicly there was no reason for it, since we have already bigger skills dmg. (Like fury and warden dps, fury have big blast long cast time, warden small blast fast recast).</p><p>To make it seamlessly equivalent and fix the bruiser offensive stance, it should include a 30% DPS boost, or remove the proc and have a 41% DPS boost. Though I guess the first solution is the more attractive since procs are a flavor to the class that have been here since lauch.</p>

[Danter]

<div>I'd rather them get rid of the proc and just add the 41% DPS boost to the offensive stance.  We already have a proc on Rumble, so I don't really think we'd lose too much flavor.  This wouldn't be overpowering either because you'd be way over the DPS cap with a Coercer and Inquistor in your group, so it's not like it will significantly improve your damage a lot in groups or raids, but it would definitely help some in duos and trios.</div><div> </div><div>Until they fix this, Provoking Stance and +crushing gear ftw.</div><div> </div><div>-Kald, 70 Bruiser Permafrost</div>

[QQ-Fatman]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Danterus wrote:<div>I'd rather them get rid of the proc and just add the 41% DPS boost to the offensive stance.  We already have a proc on Rumble, so I don't really think we'd lose too much flavor.  This wouldn't be overpowering either because you'd be way over the DPS cap with a Coercer and Inquistor in your group, so it's not like it will significantly improve your damage a lot in groups or raids, but it would definitely help some in duos and trios.</div><div> </div><div>Until they fix this, Provoking Stance and +crushing gear ftw.</div><div> </div><div>-Kald, 70 Bruiser Permafrost</div><hr></blockquote>Haste > +dps. Haste makes you proc more often while +dps does not. But i do agree that +dps is better than proc.

[Quicksilver74]

<div>BTW I been parsing Engulf with Blistering FIsts up.... over a few hours of fighting, Engulf only procs off of approx 3% of hits.  </div><div> </div><div>I am not including the 7 additional hits from 100 Hand punch etc... I'm talking 1st hit of a CA and autoattack hits.   Engulf is broken.  I see little reason to ever use Offensive stance again, as Provoking stance procs about the same. </div>

[PhozFa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div>BTW I been parsing Engulf with Blistering FIsts up.... over a few hours of fighting, Engulf only procs off of approx 3% of hits.  </div><div> </div><div>I am not including the 7 additional hits from 100 Hand punch etc... I'm talking 1st hit of a CA and autoattack hits.   Engulf is broken.  I see little reason to ever use Offensive stance again, as Provoking stance procs about the same. </div><hr></blockquote>the only reason to use off stance is the diffrence in the crushing(soon to be all melee). That still is an advantage. But an advantge you have to weight the neg def.</span><div></div>

[deadsidedemon]

<div></div><p>The skill increases of the stance make a big difference.  Go solo a yellow/orange mob in Defensive, then try the same one in Offensive.  It's not the proc making the difference there.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[korp]

<div></div><p>Just a question since i am kinda new to eq2 but old eq1 player.</p><p>In everquest 1 they did have procs/min. Meaning if you got some kind of haste, you did in fact have lesser proc %.</p><p>And it did give the feeling that slow weapons proced much more, and faster weapons did proc less. But during an encounter the slow weapon and the fast weapon did have the same nr of procs. And offhand weapons did have like 50 % of the weapons proc rating.</p><p> </p><p>Do they have the same system in eq2 ?</p><p>If they have, the proc damage wouldnt be affected by the monks 100 % haste. But it would be affected by CA's</p><p>Sorry for butchering the english language</p>

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>deadsidedemon wrote:<div></div><p>The skill increases of the stance make a big difference.  Go solo a yellow/orange mob in Defensive, then try the same one in Offensive.  It's not the proc making the difference there.</p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>That is so reducting dude.</p><p>Take a look at your defensive stance for exemple, that's not because you don't need the poison buff to tank that you would be careless if it was removed. It would be game flaw, as no tank would be naturally geared against poison mob anyway.</p><p>It works the same way for the offensive stance, having the skills boost without the DPS buff is flawed. The design of the class is very complex and quite symetric in EQ2 and while bruiser PROC vs Monk Haste was always a good match (with upper hand to proc with multi hit CA), now it is no more consistent at all.</p>

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>korp76 wrote:<div></div><p>Just a question since i am kinda new to eq2 but old eq1 player.</p><p>In everquest 1 they did have procs/min. Meaning if you got some kind of haste, you did in fact have lesser proc %.</p><p>And it did give the feeling that slow weapons proced much more, and faster weapons did proc less. But during an encounter the slow weapon and the fast weapon did have the same nr of procs. And offhand weapons did have like 50 % of the weapons proc rating.</p><p> </p><p>Do they have the same system in eq2 ?</p><p>If they have, the proc damage wouldnt be affected by the monks 100 % haste. But it would be affected by CA's</p><p>Sorry for butchering the english language</p><hr></blockquote><p>In EQ2 the procs are designed to trigger on a time percentage basis which can only be enhanced by Haste. The formula is ((weapon delay)/3.0)*Haste.</p><p>So whatever the delay of your weapon (below 3.0), it should proc the same number of time in a given time window. 100% haste will then double the number of proc.</p>

[Vorham]

<div>Yeah 10% used to be 10% modifed by delay.</div><div> </div><div>Then they cut offhand attacks out. </div><div> </div><div>Maybe drops the chance to proc by 30% since you usually throw 2 DW strikes and a combat art... repeat. Only 2 out of 3 can proc.  Mutistrikes for the win.  Or you could be using 2hr in which case each swing can proc but is a lot slower and if you miss you're out of damage that auto-round.</div><div> </div><div>Then they change combat arts/multistrikes... 1.7% chance to proc on em. Yay.  Slap Around/Savage Bruising exception due to long recast... but can only proc 1 time per mob. Yay.</div><div>So basically can only hope to proc off the main hand during autoattack. Yeah you might proc off a combat art but its 2 out of 100 uses.  Insignificant.</div><div> </div><div>Seeing Crabbok's post pretty much meshes with the gut feeling I've been having in game for a while now having seen the procs go the way of the dinosaur... procs are just toooooo [Removed for Content] rare to be considered our offensive stance's strength.</div><div> </div><div>Esp. when you consider they are resistable and don't work on our ranged attacks.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><div></div><p><strike>the real question afterall is : WHO CARE?</strike></p><p><strike>not the dev actually</strike></p><p>*** edited after a brief moment of unmerited anger ***</p><p>Message Edited by Ashdaren on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:33 PM</span></p>

[Ashdaren]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vorham wrote:<div>Yeah 10% used to be 10% modifed by delay.</div><div> </div><div>Then they cut offhand attacks out. </div><div> </div><div>Maybe drops the chance to proc by 30% since you usually throw 2 DW strikes and a combat art... repeat. Only 2 out of 3 can proc.  Mutistrikes for the win.  Or you could be using 2hr in which case each swing can proc but is a lot slower and if you miss you're out of damage that auto-round.</div><div> </div><div>Then they change combat arts/multistrikes... 1.7% chance to proc on em. Yay.  Slap Around/Savage Bruising exception due to long recast... but can only proc 1 time per mob. Yay.</div><div>So basically can only hope to proc off the main hand during autoattack. Yeah you might proc off a combat art but its 2 out of 100 uses.  Insignificant.</div><div> </div><div>Seeing Crabbok's post pretty much meshes with the gut feeling I've been having in game for a while now having seen the procs go the way of the dinosaur... procs are just toooooo [Removed for Content] rare to be considered our offensive stance's strength.</div><div> </div><div>Esp. when you consider they are resistable and don't work on our ranged attacks.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Using the offensive stance and thinking about it is a very fustrating experience, i fully agree with your points

[nobunaga_x]

<div></div>As a monk I can achieve 100% haste on my own if I go offensive.  I have been able to do this since mid 50's.  Thing is you guys have much higher damage CA's.  My best CA is a level 62 Master 2 and it's max damage of 1800. 

[Deeds]

<div></div><p>I totally agree.  Atm our offensive stance just looks silly when you compare it to the monks.  You do not notice it as much in regular grps because of our powerful CAs, and the fights are usually short, but:</p><p> go on a t7 raid where some of the mobs have a million+ hp and if you dont have a power buffer, you will be oop and doing crappy dmg, while the monk is full power and doubling your dps just autoattacking.</p><p>Tzing</p>

[Danter]

<div></div><p>Random parse from a named in GoAA.  Fight lasted like 2 mins and change.</p><p><img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hbcl01/1.jpg"></p><p> </p><p>Engulf proc'd 6 times for 3% of my total damage.  Some of the shorter fights it didn't proc.  Some of the other fights it proc'd slightly more but this was about the average.</p><p>On a side note, 31% of my damage was from auto attack.  If I had a 50% DPS buff, which our offensive stance should turn into, it would have done about 12% more damage (since my DPS was already buffed 20%).</p><p>-Kald, 70 Bruiser Permafrost</p>

[Dart]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Danterus wrote:<div></div><p>Random parse from a named in GoAA.  Fight lasted like 2 mins and change.</p><p><img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hbcl01/1.jpg"></p><p> </p><p>Engulf proc'd 6 times for 3% of my total damage.  Some of the shorter fights it didn't proc.  Some of the other fights it proc'd slightly more but this was about the average.</p><p>On a side note, 31% of my damage was from auto attack.  If I had a 50% DPS buff, which our offensive stance should turn into, it would have done about 12% more damage (since my DPS was already buffed 20%).</p><p>-Kald, 70 Bruiser Permafrost</p><hr></blockquote>Nice parse Kald, nice format too, very interesting. Granted this is only a small sample, it does show that the 5% is BS the round down, Auto attack for raid fights is a HUGE part of DPS. I am not sure it would be fair for us to achieve 100% haste, but something like 30% self buffed would go a long ways. Our DAM CA's IMHO dont make up for DBLing your DPS via auto attack. Slap a fizzlefazzle staff (sp?) and wham monk will own.

[Beyond-Postal20]

<div>I just wanna know if the dev's are aware of this issue and is something going to happen?</div><div> </div><div>I have all master stances and I see no point going into blistering fist, provoking is simply much better...</div><div> </div><div>I wish something could be done.</div>

[edyts]

70 Bruiser on BB.  I agree if monks get 100% haste and our procs are nerfed wheres the great equilizer?..Make rabid cry at least 50% dps mod and maybe well be happy .  Seems very unbalaced.  When game launched i understood monks were to be better at avoid/mit and bruisers were to do more dps.  Now monks have both.  Fix this please<div></div>

[Ashdaren]

<div></div>About 8% theorical dps bonus from proc and about 3% constated dps bonus at lvl 60+. Those numbers really scream for some action to balance it soon. But still, not even an "we are aware of the issue" from the devs, that's frustrating.

[Vorham]

If they don't plan to re-evaluate it I hope they come and at least explain why <div></div>

[Elephant]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> edyts wrote:<BR>When game launched i understood monks were to be better at avoid/mit and bruisers were to do more dps.  Now monks have both.  Fix this please<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seem very unbalanced. When choosing monk vs. bruiser, I've chosen bruiser for DPS, sacrificing avoidance. Now it is clear monks own bruisers in both DPS and avoidance. Please, fix it.<BR></DIV>

[Geakor]

<P>My bruiser is only lvl 36 BUT that doesn't mean flame me for being a newb :smileyvery-happy: I have 700 some days having EQ2 so don't start that !! I just lvl slow ! </P> <P>Anyways, I have quite  a bit of money put into my bruiser, don't remember the names of the weapons, but they are pristine imbued lvl 30 weapons. I also have just about every master skill. My bruiser (don't think procs work differently at higher levels) will proc about 50% of the time, yes no lie there. When I use 100 slaps (sometimes) a few, few meaning like 4-5, of the slaps will proc (not different ones but the same proc)</P> <P>Just wondering where you are getting these proc ideas from, I know they were in the update notes long ago, but I still proc A LOT. It is actually kind of annoying to see my proc go off over and over again so many times during a fight !! I will check and see if I cannot parse my procs and post them on here for you guys. </P> <P> </P> <P>Geiico - 36 Bruiser of Oasis</P> <P>Uurg - 35 Paladin of Oasis</P> <P>Ucen - 25 Assassin of Oasis</P> <P>Gimmia - 25 Conjuror of Oasis</P> <P>Anovi - 22 Templar of Oasis</P> <P>Fiskha - 21 Warden of Oasis</P> <P>Iska - 9 Berserker of Oasis</P> <P>*BTW thats why I level slowly !! A-D-D (J/K) :smileyvery-happy: (I like oasis !!!)</P>

[Danter]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geakor wrote:<BR> <P>My bruiser is only lvl 36 BUT that doesn't mean flame me for being a newb :smileyvery-happy: I have 700 some days having EQ2 so don't start that !! I just lvl slow ! </P> <P>Anyways, I have quite  a bit of money put into my bruiser, don't remember the names of the weapons, but they are pristine imbued lvl 30 weapons. I also have just about every master skill. My bruiser (don't think procs work differently at higher levels) will proc about 50% of the time, yes no lie there. <STRONG>When I use 100 slaps (sometimes) a few, few meaning like 4-5, of the slaps will proc (not different ones but the same proc)</STRONG></P> <P>Just wondering where you are getting these proc ideas from, I know they were in the update notes long ago, but I still proc A LOT. It is actually kind of annoying to see my proc go off over and over again so many times during a fight !! I will check and see if I cannot parse my procs and post them on here for you guys. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is impossible.  It can't happen.  Pre LU 20, this happened often with a 3.8s delay weapon.  Now when you use a multi-hit CA, you have a chance of proccing each proc on you one time and one time only for the CA.  Having Master 1 Offensive stance has nothing to do with the proc rate.  "10% is 10%".</P> <P>Our offensive stance proc is called Engulf.  Not Gleaming Strike, Blooming Flames, Roughhousing, etc.</P> <P>We get these ideas from actual parses (see above) not assumptions.</P> <P> </P> <P>-Kald 70 Bruiser, Permafrost</P>

[PhozFa]

<blockquote><hr>Vorham wrote:If they don't plan to re-evaluate it I hope they come and at least explain why <div></div><hr></blockquote>I was also hoping we'd get a dev comment either way about our stances. But I'd put money that a dev has read this by now and if we haven't got a response by now i wouldn't hold our breath<div></div>