Latest Achievement List (w/ Pics)

[Jezekie]

<div></div><div></div>Strength line:<a href="http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=strength8ss.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9846/strength8ss.th.jpg" border="0"></a>Agility: <a href="http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=agility8so.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9425/agility8so.th.jpg" border="0"></a>Stamina: <a href="http://img51.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stamina0xy.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7191/stamina0xy.th.jpg" border="0"></a>Wisdom: <a href="http://img51.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wisdom7ci.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4250/wisdom7ci.th.jpg" border="0"></a>Intelligence: <a href="http://img51.imageshack.us/my.php?image=intelligence6wk.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3866/intelligence6wk.th.jpg" border="0"></a>I'm not quite certain anymore what feedback it is the Designers of the Achievement lists or the Class balance designers is listening too, but for the sake of the community I'd wish they'd stop and take a step backwards and review their design documents and overall goal for the Bruisers class, at least possibly Monks as well.This close to release of KoS and the Achievements are still in a constant flux, and leaves a lot to desired. I'm well aware that we won't see specialized trees (Tank focused lines, or DPS focused lines, or Support/Mixture) as several people had originally suggested they'd want from their Achievement trees, but these current abilities... meh.Unless there's radical changes coming to "the vision"<font size="1">(tm)</font> regarding unarmed combat, then the Strength tree needs it's unarmed requirements removed.Eagle Shriek: The last thing that's going to save the day for a tank class tanking Epic encounters with less then 20% health is a boost to critical hits. I can't see it's usefulness even for the grind sessions vs Solo/Heroic encounters.The Stamina line is overall very disappointing, ranged attacks, ranged attack procs, and a teleport attack. Again, meh.<p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:49 PM</span></p>

[WaachBack]

<div></div><div>So STR is totally unarmed now huh? Bah</div><div> </div><div>Hmm, I still think I am going to go for half STR half STA though.</div><p>Message Edited by WaachBack on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:00 AM</span></p>

[Mentla]

Ouchies - Uber noobies question time.  What the hell are these?  <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[Rhaf]

Wow, im not interested in ANY of those abilities, since i use duel wield weapons.<div></div>

[Dfoley3]

<div>is anyone else reading that wisdom final one right?</div><div> </div><div>double dmg , and we hit all mobs in ae for 12 sec..... with instant recast/refresh?  cause  uh if thats true , i can see us being the new ae tank ;-p</div><div> </div>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<div>Yeah, I'm not really sure what they are thinking here. Especially since they just remove the unarmed proc effect from our offensive stance. I wonder if the guy making AAs is even aware of that fact.</div><div> </div><div>I'm disappointed that the abilities seem to focus entirely on the weakest types of combat a bruiser could possibly pick. Ranged, 2h staff, and unarmed? These just aren't useful to 99% of the bruisers I have met. I'm not sure if monks use 2h staffs or not, but maybe the dev in charge of this is a monk fan - the names of the AAs would imply this.</div><div> </div><div>I wish at least one line had cool bruiser names like headbutt and groin stomp. :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Colossaltitan]

<div></div>Nice post Jezekiell, thanks for the info, and more importantly- the opinion.  You said it perfect, these things really do need some work, and with KoS around the corner I think we're looking at the first 3months (out of the 6 before next expansion) with incomplete content.

[Vorham]

<div></div><div>meh... bland and very watered down, as to be expected i guess</div>

[Gaige]

<div></div>Yeah, not very happy with them either.

[ganjookie]

I am disgusted by these acheivments, especially the STA line.  Its gives worthless CAs, even ones we already HAVE....Thanks Jez that was a great post!<div></div>

[Ezariel]

<div></div>with the unarmed/weapon type requirements these are all complete crap.  Stamina being the overall worst as its completely useless no matter what.

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ezariel wrote:<div></div>with the unarmed/weapon type requirements these are all complete crap.  Stamina being the overall worst as its completely useless no matter what.<hr></blockquote><p>...</p><p>HPs and deflection are far from useless.</p>

[Ezariel]

<div></div><div>Guess I should have said it more clearly.  Besides the stat/skill bonus traits, the actual skills themselves are junk. However... For our monk bretheren the wisdom line in retrospect rocks.  Monks would be much more likely to use a 2 hander.  But without the haste buffs, bruiser just doesn't benefit as much by doing so.</div><p>Message Edited by Ezariel on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:22 AM</span></p>

[Gaige]

<div></div>I'd never use a 2h, ever.  Especially with the proc changes.

[Rhaf]

<div></div><div></div>Remove the weapon requirements on ALL the abilities please. Let us choose which weapons we want to use, without restricting us because of AA's, that's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].I'd never use just fists (boreing and bland.. also [Removed for Content], because cant hit epic mobs) and using a staff doesnt appeal to me AT ALL as a Bruiser, i like using my duel cestis/cestus/fistwraps ect.<div></div><p>At this point in time, the only thing worth doing that I see would just be pumping all my AA points into Str/Agi/Stam, I hate all of the skills. Bloody worthless.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Rhafe1 on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:39 AM</span></p>

[Rrawl]

<div>Maybe I'm reading too much into it... but the text on Pressure Points reads like it might allow you to hit epics with bare fists if you get it up high enough. 'Decreases Magic Level Immunity' ... It's got a 1 minute duration and 20 sceond recast so this is likely something you could keep up on a mob...</div><div> </div><div>I'm also noting that the final skill in the wisdom line has NO casting time or recovery... even though it's a 12 second duration... looks like you could recast it over and over again... This one also states staff in primary... not two handed staff like many of the others... wonder if a dual wield quarterstaff would count...</div>

[Stryyfe]

Ah... so they didnt get rid of the 4 to Str per rank type of BS.It never fails to amuse me that you have to waste valuable time for some useless benefit... just to get the good stuff.I'd much rather see a duration buff, or a proc'able str buff based on percentage at the very first rank, than 4 piddily strength.  I can eat a sandwich and get triple that.And I understand it is for each rank point... and that its worth it after so many ranks... that is not the point.<div></div>

[JudyJudy]

<div></div><em>Simply making the double attack skill a "passive" addition instead the requirement of unarmed, would, in my opinion, make the strength line worth it again.</em>

[Stryyfe]

Half of these abilities are a complete waste of time. 2%'s for proc rates1.9%-2% for  parrying abilitiesGive me a break.Half of them are very good too, don't get me entirely wrong, but for AA ... 50% of these need some work, Rank 1 or not.<div></div>

[diamondma]

haha if u wanna see sumthin thatll [Removed for Content] u off go check the updated warrior aa's.<div></div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>diamondmage wrote:haha if u wanna see sumthin thatll [Removed for Content] u off go check the updated warrior aa's.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Don't even talk to me about the Dragoon line.  Seriously.  It makes me want to drown kittens.</p>

[diamondma]

i ran out of those gaige im movin on to puppies then after that babies.seriously with those aa's there is no reason not to have a warrior as a tank and our aa's completely take us out of the tank running. gg once again soe.<div></div>

[Junaru]

<div></div><div></div>Well there goes my plans for AA's. These gotta change again cause in there current state they are crap. Any Brawler in beta right now, you guys gotta /feedback 24/7. You can't let these go live. If they do more then like I'm going 8/8/8/8/8 for all the stat buffs. Everything else is a joke.I mean really..Momentumous Clubbing.   A <b>one-handed melee staff </b>attack that speeds up the monkey guru's recovery time for a short duration.   .If <b>Two-Handed Staff</b> equipped in primary..What [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] wrote that AA?SOE get a clue.<div></div>Mantis Leap.Cast Time:InstantRecovery Time:InstantRecast Time:Instant.So I can bounce from person to person or mob to mob instantly.. FOREVER. Yeah ok..<p>Message Edited by Junaru on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:08 PM</span></p>

[diamondma]

ya those aa's def make baby jesus cry.<div></div>

[Bewts]

Unless they fix using bare hands, you swing like you were using a 1her - NOT duel weild but 1hb.   I was skeptical this was true, but I parsed it and with using 2 DW weapons I had approximately 50 more hits than using bare hands or only 1 DW equipped.  My DPS jumped up from approx 100 DPS to 200 DPS (auto attack only) with barehanded or bare hand / DW or DW / Barehand when I compared it to two legendary playermade cestiis.Also while I'm at it I will agree with the idea that weapon requirements to use AA's are ridiculous.  I hate the idea that there are skills that require you to use ranged weapons.  There is absolutely nothing worthwhile for ranged items available to a bruiser or monk that will resemble the DPS you get from hitting the mob with a melee weapon.  Throwing out the well you have to joust so we put some things in there for you to do while waiting on the AE isn't good enough for me.As it stands, theres maybe 1 or 2 new AA's that might give me a reason to get them, and none are something that I think WOW thats a cool skill.This leads me to raise the question... does anyone on the development team who's working out these AA's even play a brawler?Riposte and Parry chance permanently?  You do realize monks get that skill already?  But only if you are unarmed?  Eh.  IF we can hit epic mobs barehanded and swing twice or swing once like we are weilding a 2hb I'd be curious.Ambidextery?  I like the idea of shortening recast timers.  Can you say casting taunt every 5 seconds instead of 8?  Why not apply that to being able to use both fists and change the name of ambidextery to tranquil fury or something?Mantis Bolt, Mantis Star?  Come on folks.  Ones a proc off a percentage the other is a stanima debuff.  The debuff part is cool, but I can tell you right now it still does nothing for me soloing, grouping or raiding that will add to the value of having a monk along or that makes me feel useful.Mantis Leap?  Porting to a mob for a critical attack is cool I suppose, its another combat art to spam I suppose... If you critical each time you swing and not just once (its fairly vague -- why don't ya dumb it down a bit for us?) I can see it being useful.  Might want to look into the recast timer on that skill tho, instant recast means button mashing for criticals every 10 seconds.Crane Sweep?  Cool idea.  AoE stun sure will help with keeping the multi mob encounter at bay for 1.7 seconds.  You might get to cast it twice in a fight if you lead with it, for 1.7 seconds or if you time it right 3.4 seconds I'm not really sure thats worth it.  Increase the stun time or decrease the recast timer.  Again, using a specific weapon for the skill to work sucks big time.  Couldn't it be something like a leg sweep instead?  Same idea as using a staff swinging low and removes the need to have a 2hb equipped.  I never use 2hb.  you lose out on too many procs from our dragon hate buffline to use 2hb.Crane Twirl?  Well again here we are being required to use a specific type of weapon to use a skill.  A 2% chance to proc means MAYBE once a fight and just to get that chance for the proc I have to spend 9 AA points?  That sure is a lot... for a once every other to every third fight to proc in AE... and ONLY when using 2hb.Crane Flock?  Well here we are again required to use a 2hb.  The wording on how this skill works is again too vague, dumb it down a bit.  Double attacks on all frontal mobs is cool, except that when you fight mobs more often than not they encircle you.  How big of a arc are we talking about here?  a 60 degree arc, a 90 degree arc, a 120 degree arc?  Maybe we can fit 3 mobs in a 120 arc.  This skill just work on the mob you have targetted or does it function like a barrage?  Make it simple and let us double attack 100% of all attacks from primary and secondary for 12 seconds on our current target.  Spending 24 points just to get this skill, it better be worth half the AA points and not be so restricted.Eagle Spin?  Here we go again, gotta have fists in primary.  Can't have a club there, a baton there or anything else.  Ya spin the mob for 1.7 seconds, in a lagless environment thats about enough time to get 1 CA off.  Gonna cost us 5 points for that one.Eagle Shriek?  Well ya gotta spend 24 AA points to get this skill, and it only works when you are under 20% health.  In any situation where you have a healer, they are probably in [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mode trying to get your HP at least back to half.  I'd give ya approximately 2, maybe 3 seconds(from a fizzle) before you shoot back above 20% health.  Sure isn't much time to really utilize that skill and you only have a 90% chance of crits so its not a guarantee.  The ONLY time I ever let myself get in the red soloing is on a named heroic and even then I have an itchy trigger finger to press FD because I know 1 hit later I'm dead or really close to dead.  Totally need a new skill here because any changes to the health requirement just means people will exploit it for large DPS jumps against non AE mobs or mobs your jousting and you don't really need to be healed if you know your timers.  I can stand around at 20% health for 20+ seconds criting most of the time, jump out of the AE range and step back in for 90% crits.  Overall revamp this skill... or wait we are 1 week out from it going live.... /boggleBottom line folks, get a person who plays a brawler on a live server.  Ask them to test out the skills and provide feedback.  Its obvious that the design is flawed on so many skills in the AA tree.  Monks and bruisers in normal every day scenarios use DW.  They either DPS or they Tank.  Very rare is it that we use ranged skills.  Even rarer are the people who use bare hands.  Some use 2hb, because they don;'t know better or like the look or can't afford legendary.  Let me count up the skills requiring use of non-mainstream skills or weapons:Bare Hands:Eagle Spin -5Pressure Point - 5Relentless Punches - 8Claw Reversal - 12Two Handed:Momentus Clubbing - 5Crane Sweep -2Crane Twirl -8Crane Flock -24Ranged:Mantis Star - 5Mantis Bolt - 8Of the 26 skills 10 of them require non-mainsteam skills to use them.  Of the remaining AA skills 5 of them are attribute increasers, and another 6 are for Max Health, Defense, Parry, Deflection, Melee Criticals and recast timer reducer that are all PASSIVE.  That means 38% of the skills are incredibly situational and might possibly never be used in soloing, grouping or raiding scenarios.  42% more are passive skills, meaning you just buy upgrades to them and don't have to do anything special.  Thats 80% of the skills do nothing that is a WOW skill.  Of the remaining 20% you get a FD on the tank if he dies (SK's kinda can do this), a berserk mode in Chi that you have to spend 24 points on 3 skills that require you fight barenhanded to use, an insta port to the mob for a critical attack useable every (how long again on yea its instant).  And lastly a chance to ciritcal 90% of the time if you go below 20% health and risk being killed on the next hit and really is only going to happen when you try to solo heroic mobs and refuse to FD.  Not like your gonna critical enough in those few seconds before the next melee attack or combat art hits you and kills you...I'm not impressed.<div></div>

[superdave]

<div>Well wow sony carve another notch for not understanding your own classes.</div>

[Calamity33]

<div></div><p>     By far the worst AA set up I have seen.</p><p>    /Feedback this every time you log into beta is all I can say..</p>

[Rhaf]

Worst i've seen out of ANY of the classes, what did we do to deserve this?Jesus, we can't even choose our own weapons anymore.<div></div>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>Anyone else worried that this close to release they're just gonna push em out the door as is and 6 months from now have to do a complete overhaul of the system because it's "not working as intended". I kinda wish dev cycles would relax a bit. Delay the AAs until another LU or something, but please, do some decent tweaking rather than push out an expansion, pvp server roll out, live update and skill set update all at the same time. This is just asking for trouble. Everyone knows it, but no one has the nuts to take a step back and say "hey, you know what? we might be a little rushed here. Maybe the game would be better if we paced ourselves a bit". But what the luck do i know?<div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:19 PM</span></p>

[x0rtrun]

<div><span>Bewts:<blockquote><hr> I never use 2hb.  you lose out on too many procs from our dragon hate buffline to use 2hb.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Not to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], but that's not true. SInce they made applied procs primary only and the hate buff only procs off auto attack, 2hb and dw are equal for procing our hate buff. Any difference in hate is due to increased dps from DW, not from procing hate.</span></div>

[ophidius]

Boosts to staffs to make them a viable alternative are a good idea. Abilities like Mantis Leap may see less application in PvE than PvP, but I'm personally a fan of it and would like to see a usable version of it go live. That said, even the last incarnation of this list made more sense. Seeing the mitigation removed is disappointing, and the new Strength line, not to mention the very thought that whomever slapped it together figured it could even work, is disheartening.Fighting unarmed, you sacrifice any boosts associated with equipping weapons. You sacrifice your offensive ability. Then you need to sacrifice a good chunk of your Achievement points to try to make up for it. Two of the five Achievement tiers of the "Tiger Seifu" are devoted entirely to attempting to normalize fighting unarmed. Unless they forgot to mention the mechanics of unarmed combat are being completely overhauled, I don't really understand how this is supposed to do anything.On the bright side, anyone concerned that spreading the useful abilities around the different branches would mean too much to choose from should rest more easily knowing there are some nice stat boosts at the bottom of the tree. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div>

[x0rtrun]

I guess they were so fearful of repeating the eq1 AA crap they figure if they water them down SO badly, no one will care what you have either way. There's a fine line between having equal choices, and having pointless choices. The first meaning that no matter what you choose, it's gonna be good. The latter meaning there's nothing worth choosing. We're bordering on pointless here people.<div></div>

[ophidius]

I noticed that they seemed to be going farther and farther towards uselessness, and I came to the roughly the same conclusion at first; however, though many Achievement paths for many classes are bordering on ineffectual, a selection like this, with restrictions that specifically require you to strip off your weapons and get no noticeable gain, it goes a little beyond the realm of the futile, spilling into a big old sea of counterproductive. <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[vladsamier1]

<div></div>personally i think that if they are going to make our Achievments required to be unarmed they need to make fist weapons be considered unarmed. its a little unfair when we have to lose 2 slots with stats in order to use some achievements. I think that they are pretty much worthless unless they get changed to either have no requirment or have fist weps count as unarmored but thats just my 2cp

[vladsamier1]

<div>edited for double post, sorries</div><p>Message Edited by vladsamier135 on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:03 PM</span></p>

[Mentla]

<span><blockquote><hr>Mentla wrote:Ouchies - Uber noobies question time.  What the hell are these?  <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Am I on all-rounds ignore?</span><div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div>Guess so :smileyvery-happy:</div><div>Along with KoS we are gaining new traits you spend points in to improve certain areas as you see fit , otherwise known as AA (Alternate Avancement Traits) , Read Jez's Last AA post as it explains it a lot better than me :smileywink:</div>

[Jezekie]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><span><span class="headline">Beta Update Notes : February 16, 2006<i> 2/16/2005 9:00 pm</i></span></span> wrote:<span class="headline"><i></i></span>- Achievements with equipment requirements (or other requirements) willnow disable correctly when the equipment is removed.- All Achievements should all be functioning in their finalized state(barring any necessary bug fixes).<hr></blockquote>And I took a quick glance over them since the patch, they still have the same effects and requirements as in the screenshots, though timers and numbers may have changed.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:36 PM</span></p>

[MadBarman]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], that means the AA's arn't going to be changed drastically. Oh well at least no brawler will be left out of groups for picking a bad set of achievments.<div></div>

[Mota]

<div></div>Think I'm just gonna dump my points into the in-combat speed buff. It looks about as useful as the rest of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] they gave us.

[ShinmaRyche]

<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">So much for all of my /feedbacks.. :smileymad:</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Maybe (hopefully) they will adjust the Strength line later when they see just how many brawlers ARENT going that direction. I for one, arent going beyone the +str stat. Im going to have to rethink my AA tree plan though... </font></p>

[MadBarman]

Stamina and intelligence lines are the only ones worth anything now. And the movment buff only takes up 1 point.<div></div>

[Jay1981]

<div></div><p>Ah this makes sense finally :smileyindifferent:</p><p>Just call me another noob, but does this only apply to the PvP servers?</p>

[ShinmaRyche]

<div><font color="#ffff00">No, these are availiable to all servers.</font></div>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Jezekiell wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><span><span class="headline">Beta Update Notes : February 16, 2006<i> 2/16/2005 9:00 pm</i></span></span> wrote:<span class="headline"><i></i></span>- Achievements with equipment requirements (or other requirements) willnow disable correctly when the equipment is removed.- All Achievements should all be functioning in their finalized state(barring any necessary bug fixes).<hr></blockquote>And I took a quick glance over them since the patch, they still have the same effects and requirements as in the screenshots, though timers and numbers may have changed.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:36 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Geez.. How can they justify changing the AA's 5 days before it goes live and then say everything is finalized state? It's not like they tweaked the AA's they completely changed them.And for the record Mantis Leap is WAY to overpowerful in PvP if it works like the description. What bothers me most is I was planning on getting this AA when I got on the PvP servers but have a feeling SOE will nerf it so bad or completely change it and make it a wasted effort.</span></div>

[Jay1981]

<div></div><p>Another suber-uber-noober question. :smileywink:</p><p>Where do you get/spend your AA points? My main is a (now) 20 Bruiser (yes still a youngin').</p><p>Never heard of this AA System before. </p><p> </p><p>Venem - 20 Bruiser of Butcherblock</p>

[Cusashorn]

<div></div><div>You know, a lot of these skills aren't sounding nearly as good as they originally did...</div><p>Message Edited by Cusashorn on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:04 PM</span></p>

[Danter]

<div></div><p>I don't really see any of these AAs being that useful.  When you factor in the nerfage of procs + the new AAs and our new level 65 ability, I think we come out worse than we were before KoS.</p><p>The only abilities I really see that are useful are the +parry/defense/deflect skills and the critical hit AA in the int line.  The target FD ability isn't really either and not worth the 8 AA points considering almost every class in the game has some kind of rez skill.  Mantis Leap is worthless considering we already have sonic fists.  Everything else forces you to equip something, which makes it absolutely pointless to get.  I'm sure all you guys are going to give up your great fabled weapons to use some crappy AAs which require fists.</p><p>-Kald, 60 Bruiser Permafrost</p>

[Zolragas]

<div>Gee ill keep it clean this time so my post doesnt get deleted.  I'll say it over and over.  PVE is being changed so that PVP will fit in without the devs having to redo the whole game.  They are making it more and more like old EQ.  Anyone remember when the game first came out.  Stats didn't mean anything.  The only thing that did was hp and power on gear.  Now instead of being really creative they take away unarmed stance procs just so they can make aa's.  WTG.  For those of us in the "minority" that actually used unarmed combat we can only watch in horror as our class (not just us monks too) and game gets watered down with every expansion. All I see is a desperate attempt to retain and draw new people to a game that has been dying or at the very best leveled off.  The aa's we are presented with is the switch to the bait we have been playing with.</div>

[Trows]

<div>Was just reading eagle shriek again and thinking there is no way a raid would take ya along cos you would be dead all the time. For example you get caught in BQ's AoE with a mis - timing as can happen on alot of mobs (or doing barakah in PoS where you have to eat it up) that will drop you to 20% or there abouts at which point you have 90% chance of critting means agro is gonna change to us in an instant - lots of dmg but you aint gonna live long enough to enjoy it - Only so many sets of armour you can carry around</div>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Trowser wrote:<div>Was just reading eagle shriek again and thinking there is no way a raid would take ya along cos you would be dead all the time. For example you get caught in BQ's AoE with a mis - timing as can happen on alot of mobs (or doing barakah in PoS where you have to eat it up) that will drop you to 20% or there abouts at which point you have 90% chance of critting means agro is gonna change to us in an instant - lots of dmg but you aint gonna live long enough to enjoy it - Only so many sets of armour you can carry around</div><hr></blockquote>I'm pretty sure every Monk and Brusier knows that </span>eagle shriek is completely useless. The whole INT line other then Fury and Talon is a complete waste. I mean really I can spin a target for 1.7 seconds? I can stun the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mob for 4 seconds and run 3 circles around if it I wanted. 90% Crit if under 20% health. Hell with that give me 80% heal if I'm under 20%. Atleast that would be usefull.Personally I wish they would just change is back before live but I know it's not going to happen. Whats so odd to me is none of the other AA's were too powerful and they atleast made some sense. These ones, well lets just say my 6 year old son could come up with better AA's and has a better chance of balancing them out.SOE you need to start forcing your employee's to play the game before making changes. Clearly the person making the changes to the Brawler AA list has no play, group, raided or even seen a Brawler. No doubt in my mind when he was asking to make changes to the Brawler AA's his responce was "Brawler? We have them?".</div>

[Grantr]

<div>Str line isnt even a choice as far as im concerned.  They took out of the mitagation and replaced it with yet another unarmed piece of garbage.  Cant hit epics, no stat+'s, and the over all dmg/delay of unarmed fists make it something NO brawler would use in end game.  There would need to be a huge overhual on unarmed fists but even then I myself wouldnt use them.</div><div> </div><div>The agi line is decent at best, lower recast timer at 1% a point isnt worth spending points in.  Although defence is the best thing to get besides parry for a Brawler who thinks he will be able to tank raid mobs (not very likely but hey some can dream) since they took out our raw mit.  Mementumous clubbing does weak damage and gives you 17 sec of 50% reuse timer speed up every 45 seconds, leaves alot to be desired I have to say.  Altruism is cool however once your MT dies and you get aggro on whatever your fighting (in a epic fight) its highly unlikely you will be living long and the mob will jump all over anyways.  On the other hand it can be very usefull with the right group set ups but you need to spend on this tree to get them which makes me cringe.</div><div> </div><div>Stamina line is alright.  Despite the fact that a guardian can out dps one of the AA ca's + 3 thrown auto attacks with one arrow.  Ranged pouches have needed a overhaul for a long time.  Adding a few CA's dosnt hurt but on the other side it isnt going to help much ethier unless they fix the current dmg ratings overall, which I think isnt going to happen in the near future.  + Deflection is alright for those who dont have any +deflection armor and when KoS comes out belive me you will.  Deflection caps at 40% so once you reach that cap all those points spent arent all that important.  Mantis leap im sure is cool for those monks who dont have sonic fists, lazy way to joust AE + get off that extra 200 points of damage on the crit.</div><div> </div><div>Wisdom line as it has some pretty cool things in it, with the nerf of 2h dual wield is by far better in the DPS department.  Crane twirl at 2% chance dosnt really have enough chance to make this worth-while give it 800 dmg it still wouldnt be.  Then you get a pvp 360 knockdown....heh.  +0.5% hp is really nice cant complain.  Crane flock although I dont like 2h has to be the best dps choice in the entire lot of aa's.</div><div> </div><div>Int line +crits + parry not bad. Eagle spin is worthless and if im under 20% hp that means something is going wrong and hitting the mob harder isnt going to help me loose aggro or defend myself so that isnt a choice for me.  Now I do like parry and crits but as Dof and old world have shown there is a lack of good fists.  So unless that changes with KoS theres going to be some problems.</div><div> </div><div>thats what I think /shrug </div>

[Dahlrek]

<span><blockquote><hr>Grantron wrote:<div>Deflection caps at 40% </div><hr></blockquote>Is that true?  Are there other clear caps on avoidance percentages?Oh, and as far as the AA stuff goes, I'm totally unimpressed.  I'm not even impressed with crits.  Last night a crit was +30% damage.  Nice, but not something I'd give my right arm for unless it was easy to get up to a reliable frequency.</span><div></div>

[Jezekie]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dahlrek wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Grantron wrote:<div>Deflection caps at 40% </div><hr></blockquote>Is that true?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes.</span></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div>Great Post , Crap AA's :smileymad: Devs you do know that we arn't Monks Right ?

[Trows]

<div>Junaru I was at work and couldn't finish my post - I wont bother writing ab out the rest of the skills</div><div> </div><div>None of the skills are useless I personally wouldn't use them but they could have just let us level to 70 and done nothing and we would be none the wiser. The AA's are just an extra but as they stand I dont know if it was worth the development money to put them in.</div><div>As it stands at the moment I think they should take AA's out and leave them till the next expansion. I dont know what all the other classes changes are like but scout are saying that they still get (upto) 1000 mit buff. So at least some classes are getting good AA's I may well just save my AA's and wait and see if they patch what bruisers and monks are going to get</div>

[Nerj]

<div></div><div></div>People, you are missing the point for AA's. They are NOT for PvE they are meant mainly for PvP. That way you can fight two different people of the same class and they will be different, That is why AA's are being released at the same time as PvP.<p>Message Edited by Nerjin on <span class="date_text">02-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:12 AM</span></p>

[x0rtrun]

Even though the AA's are "flavour" or that they are mainly for PVP or whatever you wanna call it, the fact that they kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for some classes and suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for other classes makes some classes more useful than others. It's a relative nerf if they are boosting one class over another.<div></div>

[narcoleptic_l]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nerjin wrote:<div></div><div></div>People, you are missing the point for AA's. They are NOT for PvE they are meant mainly for PvP. That way you can fight two different people of the same class and they will be different, That is why AA's are being released at the same time as PvP.<p>Message Edited by Nerjin on <span class="date_text">02-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:12 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Not quite following this line of thought here, unless they only showed up on the PvP servers... it's a selling point of the new expansion, PvP or PvE... I could care less one way or another, it's something else to mess with and typically only group with friends anyhow. But I can see why so many are irritated, as other classes are stepping above while some are straying behind... IE some benefit well from these skills while others are just wasting their time with them.</p><p>Also, there probably won't be much difference on how people pick their AA's per class, especially for PvP.. once folks figure out what wins they'll all jump on the FOTM wagon, and be clones.</p>

[shadyshab]

I see the stamina line as being pure pvp... Otherwise, i dont see why anyone would go that route.

[Dahlrek]

<div></div>Figured I'd go ahead and update the status of these.  Been a good number of balance changes over last couple days, so I'll only list the changes, at rank 1 level 60.StrPressure Point - Now does no damage,debuffs crushing mitigation debuff(264), magic immunity debuff of one level, duration cut in half.  Costs only 8 power now, which would almost make it useful to open with before re-equipping a 2h.. if you were crazy enough to use a 2h after the proc changes.Relentless Punches - Now 12% DA, +20% DPSClaw Reversal - Now 1.5% riposte at rank 1Chi - Recovery 33%, Casting 75%AgiMomentumous Clubbing - Caster recovery now 20%, target recovery now -20%, usable with DW or 1H staff in primary.  Don't know how well it ranks, but might be a usable CA if you DW with a staff.Monkey Dodge - 1.5 defenseAltruism - No longer has hate gain side effectStaDeflecting Pincers - 1.4 deflectionMantis Leap - 1 min recast, removed the text about counter removal.  Don't know if that means you get 10s of crits or not.WisCrane Sweep - Does actual damage now (about one of the two hits of Momentumous Clubbing)Crane Twirl - 1% chance, twice the damage, no requirementsCrane Flock - 5 min recast, 16s durationIntEagle Spin - Doesn't work on epicsEagle's Fury - Now 2.8% melee critEagle's Talon - 1.8 parryEagle Shriek - Triggers at 30% health, 75% crit, supposed to increase phyiscal mitigation 1200 (bugged, currently decreases)So I think these changes are all in the right direction (though the reduction in defense skills kinda sucks), but the fact that they're still in significant flux does not bode well, imo.  At this rate I expect further non-trivial changes post-release.<div></div>

[x0rtrun]

I'd like to see some updated screenshots<div></div>

[ShinmaRyche]

<div></div><p><img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/021/425.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/021/427.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/021/456.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/021/458.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/021/429.jpg"></p>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>awesome, thanks<div></div>EDIT: well that's a bit of an improvement. They went from worthless to at least workable.I don't like the change to Altruism though. It figures that they would ruin the only skill that was good the way it was. The hate gain was what made it really useful, cause you could instantly pick up tanking when you MT dropped. Too powerful? I dunno... but now, unless you can grab agro with rescue or something the mob will just start mauling the raid or the healers trying to get the tank back up.<p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class="date_text">02-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:49 PM</span></p>

[MadBarman]

Anyone else think the 20% decrease on recovery times on Momentumous Clubbing is a bit pointless? recovery times are 0.5 seconds generally. So that means we get 0.1 second less for 17.6 seconds.If you were to use all your CA's in that time (call it 15) then you would only get an improvement of 1.5 seconds.<div></div>

[Nerj]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>narcoleptic_ltd wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nerjin wrote:<div></div><div></div>People, you are missing the point for AA's. They are NOT for PvE they are meant mainly for PvP. That way you can fight two different people of the same class and they will be different, That is why AA's are being released at the same time as PvP.<p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Not quite following this line of thought here, unless they only showed up on the PvP servers... it's a selling point of the new expansion, PvP or PvE... I could care less one way or another, it's something else to mess with and typically only group with friends anyhow. But I can see why so many are irritated, as other classes are stepping above while some are straying behind... IE some benefit well from these skills while others are just wasting their time with them.</p><p>Also, there probably won't be much difference on how people pick their AA's per class, especially for PvP.. once folks figure out what wins they'll all jump on the FOTM wagon, and be clones.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Actually with the varietry that exist their will be no FOTM on the PvP servers. For the PvE servers yes.</p><p>1) People would have a fit if AA's were only PvP.</p><p>2) Might get more people going to the PvP servers if they try out the AA's on the PvE servers.</p><p>3) No retro AA XP.</p><p>4) Little use on PvE servers. As many have pointed out for most classes. Against Epics these are of little value. However, in a PvP enviroment a lot of different styles an variety.</p><p>Find skills that fit your play style and enjoy the new fluff spells.</p>

[Kronadin]

<div></div>LOL, Eagle Shriek now says the mitigation of caster is DECREASED by 1200, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? So I reach 30% health and then the mob can one-shot me. :smileyvery-happy:

[Dfoley3]

<div>Its ment to be a berserk thing.   Although it would fit more for berserkers to go berserk... but hey, thats just logic talking again.</div><div> </div><div>Useless on raids, hard to maintain, 99% of its usefullness comes from dueling / pvp.  Someones pwning u, and magicly u can pwn them back.   Goodluck having healers only cast little heals on u in a raid so u stay sub 30.</div>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div>Its ment to be a berserk thing.   Although it would fit more for berserkers to go berserk... but hey, thats just logic talking again.</div><div> </div><div>Useless on raids, hard to maintain, 99% of its usefullness comes from dueling / pvp.  Someones pwning u, and magicly u can pwn them back.   Goodluck having healers only cast little heals on u in a raid so u stay sub 30.</div><hr></blockquote>I doubt it. I think it's a bug. You can't take away 1200 mit from a Brawler with less then 30% and expect them to live. No one would pick this AA if it did. Even in PvP it is useless unless you are fighting a caster that doesn't melee.</span></div>

[ShinmaRyche]

<div></div><font color="#ffff00">Im pretty sure its supposed to say increased.</font>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<div>Simply reading through the list of AAs invalidates your argument that it sucks so bad it must be a bug. :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Dfoley3]

<div>um no its ment to decrease ur mitg. its not ment to be used while tanking.   Its like a desperation atk, you get low and you get one last burst of str to finish a mob off. </div><div> </div><div>If i lost 1300 mitg in a raid id be at 2400 ish , at 70 ill prolly be 3000 ish.   if i was a bruiser id be at 3600 ish.  the atk is pure and simple a berserken rage u fall into at sub 30% hp.   its ment for when ur dpsing and u get aed, or are meleeing from in front and get reposted.  the only other application is pvp/dueling</div>

[x0rtrun]

wow, that's dumb.Are we even tanks anymore? or just 4th rate dps plain and simple? Did I miss a memo?I mean, we get lame DPS and offtank skills, extremely rare gear with lack luster statsPlate tanks get tons of uber gear (some of which even gives them the monks defining tanking ability, tsunami (cold forged BP) ) and an AA ability that gives them tsunami as well. They're getting their cake and eating it too.<div></div>

[Rrawl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div>um no its ment to decrease ur mitg. its not ment to be used while tanking.   Its like a desperation atk, you get low and you get one last burst of str to finish a mob off. </div><div> </div><div>If i lost 1300 mitg in a raid id be at 2400 ish , at 70 ill prolly be 3000 ish.   if i was a bruiser id be at 3600 ish.  the atk is pure and simple a berserken rage u fall into at sub 30% hp.   its ment for when ur dpsing and u get aed, or are meleeing from in front and get reposted.  the only other application is pvp/dueling</div><hr></blockquote>I believe you are incorrect. If you read the skill description, it does say you gain an increase to your physical mitigation. It does not say anything regarding being berserk.

[MadBarman]

The description reads increase to your mitigation so I guess its a bug. Also its a passive, 'always on ability' so you can't turn it off. Would be very silly to have a skill that decreases your mit by that much which you can't even turn off.<div></div>

[cr0wnan]

<div></div>Wouldn't Eagle Spin be a great CA in conjunction with Kidney Punch for pvp? Doing this will allow you to get off Kidney Punch without wasting your stun (seeing that there is an immunity after your first stun) and thus allowing you to stun and open up another barrage of high damging CAs. Just pointing out that its not entirely useless from a pvp standpoint.

[Bewts]

I'm still unimpressed.  Some things might be workable but overall I'm very unimpressed.  Especially when a guardian can go tsunami and we get nothing to give ourselves a huge hit to mitigation to even out the sharing of the skills..../veto the current AA system<div></div>

[Junaru]

<div><div><span><blockquote><hr>cr0wnand7 wrote:Wouldn't Eagle Spin be a great CA in conjunction with Kidney Punch for pvp? Doing this will allow you to get off Kidney Punch without wasting your stun (seeing that there is an immunity after your first stun) and thus allowing you to stun and open up another barrage of high damging CAs. Just pointing out that its not entirely useless from a pvp standpoint.<hr></blockquote>The problem there is you need to be in unarmed combat to use it. It's not that the AA completely sucks (although they seem pretty weak compaired to other classes) it's the weapons or lack there of that SOE is trying to force us to use. If you could make a macro to unarm yourself it might not be as bad but you can't so in order to use this AA you need to manually remove your weapon, use the AA then equip the weapon again. Who wants to be doing that each time they want to spin the person?</span></div><span><blockquote><hr>Bewts wrote:I'm still unimpressed.  Some things might be workable but overall I'm very unimpressed.  Especially when a guardian can go tsunami and we get nothing to give ourselves a huge hit to mitigation to even out the sharing of the skills..../veto the current AA system<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well remember Guardian AA version of Tsunami stuns them. They can't attack or turn or even run like Monks can. While it is a nice AA it's not as uber as Tsunami is. But I agree taking away our Mitigation AA just seems lame. It's not like it made us tank Gods.</span></div>

[Dahlrek]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><div><span><blockquote><hr>cr0wnand7 wrote:Wouldn't Eagle Spin be a great CA in conjunction with Kidney Punch for pvp?<hr></blockquote>The problem there is you need to be in unarmed combat to use it.</span></div><span></span></div><hr></blockquote>You might be confused.  Eagle Spin requires fists in primary, not empty primary/secondary like the Strength line.  I never tested it, but even if it's not a 1.7s stun (which I suspect it may be), it's at least a rotation lock, which is nearly as good if you're the only melee attacker on a melee target.  It's not something to write home about, but it's not unusable.</span><div></div>

[Bry]

I think ill be going with the agility line.  Seems like i can reasonable use every skill and a decent balance of offense from shorter casting times and defense from agility and defense.  Will have to stick a staff in my main hand, but still better than using a 2hb<div></div>

[JudyJudy]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dahlrek wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><div><span><blockquote><hr>cr0wnand7 wrote:Wouldn't Eagle Spin be a great CA in conjunction with Kidney Punch for pvp?<hr></blockquote>The problem there is you need to be in unarmed combat to use it.</span></div><span></span></div><hr></blockquote>You might be confused.  Eagle Spin requires fists in primary, not empty primary/secondary like the Strength line.  I never tested it, but even if it's not a 1.7s stun (which I suspect it may be), it's at least a rotation lock, which is nearly as good if you're the only melee attacker on a melee target.  It's not something to write home about, but it's not unusable.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><em>I'm aware that "fists in primary" are fist wraps.  Does this include cestii and cestus?</em>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dahlrek wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><div><span><blockquote><hr>cr0wnand7 wrote:Wouldn't Eagle Spin be a great CA in conjunction with Kidney Punch for pvp?<hr></blockquote>The problem there is you need to be in unarmed combat to use it.</span></div><span></span></div><hr></blockquote>You might be confused.  Eagle Spin requires fists in primary, not empty primary/secondary like the Strength line.  I never tested it, but even if it's not a 1.7s stun (which I suspect it may be), it's at least a rotation lock, which is nearly as good if you're the only melee attacker on a melee target.  It's not something to write home about, but it's not unusable.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I thought "fists" where our Fist skill. Mainly bare handed. DW weapons aren't labeled Fist so why would SOE describe it that way? Oh well now I know better.</span></div>

[ShinmaRyche]

<div></div><font color="#ffff00">Eagle Shrieks' effects have been corrected to say Increases instead of Decreases.</font>

[cr0wnan]

If you think our AAss suck. Go look at the Rogue's or Bard's AAs. Ouch, now thats bad!<div></div>

[sarsippi]

<div></div><p>Can some one correct me if im wrong? I'm under the impression that you can only use a TOTAL of 50 AA points. is that right?</p><p>I liked the idea of going pure defense, or pure offense. With only 50 aa's to work with we can only get two of the AA's for defense boosts (if you max that rank for the defense one only). Parry/ defense/ hp's/ deflection. For each defensive one its the 4th rank in the tree. So you need 12, just to get to it, Then 8 to max it. Which really sucks. The way the trees are set up you'll be best off just going with the tree that has the best overall AA skills which may or may not include one you actually wanted.</p><p>My 1st thought on the skills and the trees are that the wisdom and int ones look the best to me. Nice that I have to raise those stats for the best looking ones, heh.</p><p>They really do need to remove all the weapon requirements, they make most of them worthless to me. I dont mind the range one, doubt that I'll use it, but its good to have one for it, heh.</p><p>If the total amount of AA's you can use isnt 50 and it is actually unlimited, most of this post is null, heh. But I've heard that a couple times.</p><p>2 AA's saved up, now to decide which tree to start on, heh. I'm leaning towards agily/ stamina or wisdom. Int looks ok too, but I dunno useless stat and only for crits.</p><p>The str tree is completly useless to me. Except the final one, but not gonna get that for 24 AA's.</p><p>Actually, the AA's dont look /that/ bad, I just hope 50 AA's isnt a max that you can use.</p><p>The original OP mentions the stamina line. range procs and range procs. Only one is a ranged attack, the other is any attack, so it says anyway?</p>

[ShinmaRyche]

<div></div><div></div><div><font color="#ffff00">From todays update notes:</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><strong><font color="#ffcc00">*** Achievements ***</font></strong>- Pressure Point is now a melee attack that breaks through the enemy's defense modes.</div><div> </div><div><strong><font color="#ffcc00"></font></strong> </div><div><strong><font color="#ffcc00">*** Combat ***</font></strong>- Lower quality weapons and bare fists can now hit epic targets.</div><p>Message Edited by ShinmaRyche on <span class="date_text">02-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:58 PM</span></p>

[Grimme]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>cr0wnand7 wrote:If you think our AAss suck. Go look at the Rogue's or Bard's AAs. Ouch, now thats bad!<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Actually I play both of those (as well as a monk) and I think they are actually really good. I've already got my swash using ghoulbane half the time hehe.</p><p>Here's what sucks though: our AA list! Can we get a list without pictures, in proper order, like the other classes? I'd put it together myself but I'm not in a position to do so at the moment.</p>