Questions about Bruiser vs Berserker

[tarras]

Hey, I'm fairly new to EQ2.  I started playing when I heard about the PvP servers opening on the 21st.  I tend to play tank classes in these games, and have tested out all of the ones that I am interested in.  I've narrowed it down now to Berserker and Bruiser for pvp.  I have heard that berserkers have the highest dps for plate wearing tanks, and I've heard all too much about bruisers being extremely good. (if anyone has or knows about any parses of raid dps showing bruisers and berserkers dps, that would be hugely appreciated.)I am in interested in how much of a gap in dps there is between Bruiser and Berserker.Will I get smoked a lot faster by rangers and such as a bruiser, wearing leather armor as opposed to the zerker's plate?Is the main quirk of bruisers over berserkers their abilities that get them out of cc, and such?  (I'm currently leaning towards bruiser because of all the cheap abilities i keep hearing about)I do plan to tank frequently in  dungeons, and both can do fine, but berserker obviously has an advantage there, which is a slight factor for me, but by far not the end deciding factor.  My main objective here is figuring out which class will best suit me for PvP.  I like the concept of both classes equally, so it's basically which one will be more effective in GROUP pvp. I will most likely be running with a defiler, coercer, necro, and wizard.Will any of these classes give added benefits to choosing either Berserker or Bruiser?And do Bruisers or Berserkers give benefits for those classes?Any other information that would help me decide on this would be greatly appreciated.Thanks.<div></div>

[Ether]

<div></div>The Bruiser will be much better for PvP, depending on if they change combat art effects for PvP rules. If it is like it is now, the ability to frontload damage is FAR better for the bruiser.

[Flor]

I would say zerker.IMO is better to take small hits more often than big hits less often. Makes it safer.Also, the classes you mentioned, they add good buffs to the zerker.As far as the PvP, as i mentioned in other post, put 2 good ppl behind the characters that know what they doing, a zerker will NEVER lose to a bruiser.I have fought quite some good bruisers and i never lost. Did i mention im a zerker? <span>:smileywink:</span>

[WaachBack]

<div></div><p> </p><p>Make a zerker, bruisers suck.  :smileywink:</p>

[tarras]

That doesn't really tell me WHY bruisers suck (contrary to what I've heard everywhere else).  You guys need to back up what you're saying about zerkers if you want to convince me.<div></div>

[Pnaxx]

<div></div><p>If you are looking to Tank, then I would say Zerker...let the dps players do dps...Bruisers are not considered a dps type...even though we solo very very well. But as a MT, Zerkers have the edge fer a few reasons....(I have a Zerker alt btw as well my Bruiser)</p><p>1. Plate armor allows them to take a little damage consistantly over the fight whereas the Bruiser will avoid alot but then get hit fer alot when it does get hit making healing tougher.</p><p>2. Zerker has much better agro control by far. It is pretty tough to hold multiple mobs as a Bruiser....it can be done, but it don't come easy....and even then, Zerker has the edge in a big way there.</p><p>3. Zerkers gove real good group haste buffs. Bruisers do too, but I don't think as many as Zerkers...but I could be wrong there.</p><p>4. Zerkers are tailor made for holding large groups at bay as MT whwere Bruisers are more for single mob...which we rule at.</p><p>So if you are looking to be the best tank of the two, I would say Zerker.:smileywink:</p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<div></div><div>Do zerkers get anything like stone deaf or closed mind? If they don't, I'd go with the bruiser for PvP if they keep those two abilities the same.</div><div> </div><div>For the OP, Stone Deaf is the lvl 52 Ancient Teaching that allows you to absorb 3 non-melee attacks if the attack would do more than 10% of your HP. Most player casted damage spells would fit into this category. Closed Mind is the lvl 58 Ancient Teaching that grants you immunity to root, stun, stifle, mes, and I think something else for 20 seconds. Most of what stone deaf won't block, Closed Mind will.</div><div> </div><div>Also, Defiler is the perfect healer for a bruiser in my experience. I wouldn't worry about PvE with that group. The wizard and necro are more single target focused, so your weakness in holding multi-target agro until lvl 50 (when you get Savage Blows) can be largely ignored. Also, single ^^^ mobs give more xp than grouped heroic encounters so you ought to be fighting those anyway.</div><div> </div><div>One advantage the zerker has is that plate drops are a dime a dozen in EQ2. If you go bruiser, get used to selling the loot you find to the vendor to buy crafted stuff. Zerkers also have better AOE damage, but honestly in PvP it won't be often you get to AOE any group that sees you coming so who cares.</div><p>Message Edited by Cornbread Muffin on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:19 AM</span></p>

[tarras]

Pnaxx and Cornbread Muffin, I appreciate both of your input.When it comes to pve, my friends that I play with are all pretty elite players.  We've been playing these games for a while now, and we all know how to control aggro, and work as a team.  So I don't think zerker vs bruiser for PvE is really an issue to me.  We've been playing for a couple months now and I have had no problems with bruiser, even controlling multiple mobs as long as people assist.  I do understand that zerkers are by far better tanks, but artificial intelligence only goes so far, so I think I can manage with bruiser.Now for pvp, I constantly see zerkers bragging about their aoe dps, and I think that's just because that's the only thing they can brag about.  Single target dps is more important for the most part.  Also, what you said there about Stone Deaf and Closed Mind -- those are abilities unique to the bruiser that makes him a very powerful pvp class.I just got into the pvp beta and I've been playing around with the bruiser.  Sonic fists is huge, I don't know of any other melee classes that can instantly teleport to their target.  Great ability to use against kiters.  Also, their multitude of long stuns and high damage attacks seem really effective.  Other abilities like instill panic, ignore agony, resolute will, unnerve, etc are all abilities that can be used to deadly potentil.  I also play Iksar and I have their Defensive Coloration ratial tradition, which allows me to go invisible and move around for 3 minutes every half hour.  This amount of powerful abilities really sway me towards the Bruiser.  I still have yet to do more testing on the Berserker on beta now though, but so far, everything that I have heard about bruisers seems to be true.<div></div>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<div>I actually don't find berserkers to be better tanks than bruisers. Both are good, and I prefer either one (or a monk) to the other tanks in most situations. For xp groups the difference between a bruiser and zerker just isn't that great as far as how much damage is being taken. I would only choose plate over a brawler for high end raids just due to dmg management for your healers.</div><div> </div><div>Since you're obviously going evil side with your PvP crew, I wouldn't suggest any tank other than a bruiser. Monk is probably also good for PvP. I don't know how mez duration works in PvP but sonic fists+unnerve is likely a nice combo in group vs group PvP to take a critical member out of the fight from the start.</div>

[Flor]

Well, i know it comes down to the player behind the character.But let me put it this way.A good zerker will kill a bad bruiser.A good bruiser will kill a bad zerker.But always, ALWAYS, a good zerker will kill a good bruiser , at leas tin duels.Why? I dont play a bruiser, but let me tell you the zerker side.We have fast casting stun, 7 sec stun, 4 sec stun, another 4 sec stun, than a 2 sec stun.We have really good mittigation, i  can self buff mittigation to 5400 !!, waaay over the 80% cap.We have really good damage..rampage will proc 10 times 450 damage, frenzy is almost 2k instant damage, slay is 1k.We have SELF REZ!!!! yes, you heard it right, we have a self rez with 10% hp and another 10% every sec for 5 secs or something like that.We have good HP..that counts a lot in pvp..i can self buff 6900 hpWe have zerk mode, 24% increase in atack speed and 24% increase in dps, than another self buff that gives us 52% more atack speed for 36 secs.And here is another thing, i have 182 in combat hp regen . Thats right, i can heal myself for 180 hp every 6 secs. In a 1 min fight, thats 1800 HP. Please tell me you dont think that is lil.That and a lot more helped me to NEVER lose a duel to a bruiser..and i fought some really good ones.

[ShinmaRyche]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Florin wrote:Well, i know it comes down to the player behind the character.But let me put it this way.A good zerker will kill a bad bruiser.A good bruiser will kill a bad zerker.But always, ALWAYS, a good zerker will kill a good bruiser , at leas tin duels.Why? I dont play a bruiser, but let me tell you the zerker side.We have fast casting stun, 7 sec stun, 4 sec stun, another 4 sec stun, than a 2 sec stun. <font color="#ffff00">Resolute Will to wipe the stun if you get it landed, and Close Mind to make sure you cant do it again for 30 seconds.</font>We have really good mittigation, i  can self buff mittigation to 5400 !!, waaay over the 80% cap. <font color="#ffff00">3000+ mit with our spirit line. Any decent bruiser will debuff your mit, and likely your attk speed.</font>We have really good damage..rampage will proc 10 times 450 damage, frenzy is almost 2k instant damage, slay is 1k. <font color="#ffff00">Im not sure if Stone deaf will stop these, but if it does, they are reduced to 0 damage.</font>We have SELF REZ!!!! yes, you heard it right, we have a self rez with 10% hp and another 10% every sec for 5 secs or something like that.We have good HP..that counts a lot in pvp..i can self buff 6900 hpWe have zerk mode, 24% increase in atack speed and 24% increase in dps, than another self buff that gives us 52% more atack speed for 36 secs.And here is another thing, i have 182 in combat hp regen . Thats right, i can heal myself for 180 hp every 6 secs. In a 1 min fight, thats 1800 HP. Please tell me you dont think that is lil.That and a lot more helped me to NEVER lose a duel to a bruiser..and i fought some really good ones.<hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Im not saying that bruisers are superior, im just saying that with bad luck, and or bad timing, and good bruiser can dominate.</font>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Florin wrote:Well, i know it comes down to the player behind the character.But let me put it this way.A good zerker will kill a bad bruiser.A good bruiser will kill a bad zerker.But always, <b>SOMETIMES</b>, a good zerker will kill a good bruiser , at leas tin duels.<font color="#ff0000">Fixed it for you.</font>Why? I dont play a bruiser, but let me tell you the zerker side.We have fast casting stun, 7 sec stun, 4 sec stun, another 4 sec stun, than a 2 sec stun.<font color="#ff0000">And this does what against closed mind? Also in PvP when you are stunned you become immune to stun for 2x the length of the stun.</font>We have really good mittigation, i  can self buff mittigation to 5400 !!, waaay over the 80% cap.<font color="#ff0000">I need a link to your gear to believe this one.</font>We have really good damage..rampage will proc 10 times 450 damage, frenzy is almost 2k instant damage, slay is 1k.<font color="#ff0000">I don't know enough about your CA's to have a comment.</font>We have SELF REZ!!!! yes, you heard it right, we have a self rez with 10% hp and another 10% every sec for 5 secs or something like that.<span><font color="#ff0000">Non-berserk you heal 1% (adept3) of max health per second (2% at master1) for 5 seconds.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">While Berserk you heal 7% (adept3) of max health per second (8% at master1) for 5 secondsTaken right from the Zerk forums. You make it seems like it's a sure fire get out of jail free card. It's not and often it fails cause the damage you take from the last hit is more then the 1st tick of the heal.</font></span>We have good HP..that counts a lot in pvp..i can self buff 6900 hp<font color="#ff0000">Yeah so? I know of a Monk with 6800 self buffed.</font><a target="_blank" href="http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/317/maxhpz8zw.jpg">Gaige</a>We have zerk mode, 24% increase in atack speed and 24% increase in dps, than another self buff that gives us 52% more atack speed for 36 secs.<font color="#ff0000">And one mez blows that CA.</font>And here is another thing, i have 182 in combat hp regen . Thats right, i can heal myself for 180 hp every 6 secs. In a 1 min fight, thats 1800 HP. Please tell me you dont think that is lil.<font color="#ff0000">Not sure about your duels but all of the ones I have been in didn't last longer then 30 seconds. 1 minute? In 1 minute I can kill a group.</font>That and a lot more helped me to NEVER lose a duel to a bruiser..and i fought some really good ones.<font color="#ff0000">Well dueling is PvP</font><hr></blockquote>And finally, You can't get 76% haste, 180hps regen, 5400mit, 6900hps all at the same time. You trade some abilities for the others. If Brusiers talked the way you do they could make it sound like they can fear you and unload 1k CA's on your then Mez you and repeat. Get for real man.Also the Op is talking about PvP not dueling. The same rules do not apply in PvP.</span></div>

[PhozFa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Florin wrote:That and a lot more helped me to NEVER lose a duel to a bruiser..and i fought some really good ones.<hr></blockquote>How do you know if they were good bruisers? Lemme guess cause they are in a raiding guild with good gear you assume they have skill? Anyway I only lost to a zerker once and it was my own [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fault. You can stun, but i can cure and stun you back. Also the immunity helps.I still feel you never actully faced a good bruiser. I'm not saying bruisers are better than zerkers at all. I don't have a zerker so i'd be biased to say. But from what i seen i can do better in certain situations and same to a zerker. To the OP pick the class you feel suits you. If you pick a class cause someone tells you its cool you may not get into it and may not develop the skill needed. Oh and Florin go duel Phay from what people say about him i'd bet he could beat you with almost full life <span>:smileywink:</span></span><div></div>

[Flor]

LOL.Please, all i hear about bruiser is that they cant be stunned.OMG, guess what? I dont care about stuns. Last bruiser i beat thought the same thing. And was so surprised when he saw his HP going down..and down, then he used mend or whatever...and his HP went down a lil more..and a lil more..and he died.What im saying, a good zerker does a lot more damage than a good brusier, i onyl talk from my own experience, but as i said, no bruiser proved me wrong so far.And i do duel a lot.The good thing about zerkers is that, even that we stuned or whatever, our stance procs a ton of damage. We can sit there and take a beating and even tho we are stuned, we still doing damage back.Bruisers are good and everything, but when a zerker can self buff 5400 mit the damage a bruiser does to us is not even noticeble.Im sure there are great brusiers out there....i just didnt have the luck to meet one.

[tarras]

Thanks for your opinions.  I've been able to test this out first hand with a 55 bruiser and confirm my suspicions.  =)Also tried a 55 zerk... plate was nice, but the single target ownage is not the same.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<div></div><div></div><div>thats nice you have high mtigation i tend to proc a ~450dd+ heat proc alot and a few magic procs to boot. (man i miss my 1k heat proc was a sure win in pvp) seriously unless ur resists are jsut as high i can beat any class in 2 combat arts in duel. fear then mezz him outside the ring. game over, Unless u leanr to breka it w mana stone then i have to stun and kill u with procs =/</div><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:55 PM</span></p>

[PhozFa]

I'm sure you beat alot of bruisers but what you fail to realize is a good bruiser can keep you stuned/mez a decent amount of time and you may be able to mitigate alot of our attacks but thats ok cause when your mezzed just hit ya with mit debuff hex doll to help things. you can't do much dps on your own when your mezzed/stuned most of the time. Your uber mit and HPs just means you take longer to beat than most classes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[cr0wnan]

Some facts/opinions to point out that might help with the debate:<ul><li>Sonic fists is nerfed for pvp in LU20.</li></ul><ul><li>All the arguements about being able to stun-lock is pointless due to the new game mechanics of stuns in pvp.</li></ul><ul><li>Stone Deaf doesn't work on CA's... only spells (unless the CA's damage is magic based, I believe).</li></ul><ul><li>Both Bruiser and Berserker can front-load damage at end-game equally well. It's just that berserker's front load is AE, however, that shouldn't stop a good berserker from using them in 1-on-1 fights either.</li></ul><ul><li>Bruiser definately has more utitility value than a Berserker.</li></ul><ul><li>Bruiser definaetly will definately be FOTM when the PVP launches. So expect to see hundreds of shirtless players running around the newbie zones. =)</li></ul><ul><li>Berserker in group pvp (which is 90% of the time unless you have a fetish to get ganked) is pretty sick with their uber-nasty AE <b>burst</b> damage.</li></ul><ul><li>Looking at some of the T7 Master skills and AA progressions... my opinion is that zerkers take the advantage there with their ability to insanely boost their crit %.</li></ul><ul><li>Arguements about who is better in duels between specific classes is irrelevant to pvp discussions. Some classes are built better for straight 1on1 duels where as other classes shine in open group pvp scenarios.</li></ul>Anyways, I know it seems like I'm more of a supporter for Zerkers... I'm not. I just wanted to add some further facts into the debate to spur it further. =) I like both classes equally and I think both will have their place in any well established pvp guild/group.<div></div>