State of Bruisers (28th/Nov/05)

[Jezekie]

<div></div>LU#13 has had time to sink in and we've seen a few very nice additions since that LU, like the duel-wield changes, and the soon to be patched change to our roughhousing proc line. There isn't many threads about this or that being broken or unbalanced regarding our subclass, where as some of the other other subclasses are up in arms over certain issues or the entire revamp.Is everyone happy, or did everyone pack their backpack and leave?Is there anything that isn't working as you think may be intended, or anything that isn't quite balanced?My own two copper on our subclass is mostly about our functionality as a raid tank where with the right buffs we're doing very well, but I wouldn't mind seeing avoidance functioning better vs x2, x3, x4 lvl 64-65 NPCs. I think we're very well off in a group setting and really don't need a boost there, so I'm not certain how it could be balanced vs the epic and high level NPCs without causing an unbalance vs Heroics.Something else of concern is the fairly high amount of Combat Arts at lvl 60 that are Crushing only, and the fairly high amount of Crush immune x2 and x4 encounters that are in the various raid instances. A solution to this issue without changing the epic encounters would be to flag more of our Combat Arts as no-specific damage type and let it work off our weapons. We'll still need to swap weapons for the various encounters if we want to do damage, but at least we won't be as restricted as we are currently.<p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:01 PM</span>

[Mantua1]

<P>From my point of view as a <STRIKE>57</STRIKE> 58 :smileyhappy: Bruiser our subclass is working pretty well. I can not think of anything that screams out as a problem. If I had to choose one topic I would like to see "tweaked" it would be our avoidance. When buffed my AGI is up around the high 300's low 400's avoidance doesnt get as much of boost as I would have thought.</P> <P>As far as tanking ability I can serve as a regular group tank pretty well and certian x3 or x4 mobs I can handle but need lots of support not to mention aggro management can get pretty ugly when the mages let loose.</P> <P>Otherwise I like my Bruiser and would not trade him for anything - the state of our class is pretty good I think.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ohh and maybe a little more diversity on the armor graphics would be nice but I am not holding my breath.</P> <p>Message Edited by Mantua1 on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 PM</span>

[IceDragon7878]

<P>i have 6 T6 fabled weapons, not a single one is non crush... yet 1/2 the named epics we seem to fight are all crush immune, its a real pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to never be able to use my fabled weapons against the mobs that i need them the most for.</P> <P>ya, bruisers are pretty good tanks atm, happy to see the time has finally come.</P>

[Skha]

I think avoidance works very well as long as the mob is yellow and debuffed.... then again guardians don't really have that much lower avoidance.Damage specific attacks - this is the biggest letdown I could think of, like it wasn't enough that there were almost no fabled non-crushing weapon for us... now damage specific CAs.... sigh.Also, there's 10 pieces of fabled HA armor for every LA piece.... but it's always been that way, so I'm not really surprised.I wish Quarrel would be put in-line with Dragon Stance or whatever it's called, right now monks have much much better single target hate.Permanently maintainable Spirit line would be clearly overpowered, so I wouldn't mind if the mitigation would be lowered by 50% and the cooldown removed.Otherwise I think bruisers are a very nice class post LU13.<div></div>

[Danter]

<P>I'm pretty satisfied with my Bruiser at level 58.</P> <P> </P> <P>The things that irk me are just minors bugs like Sonic Fists working 30% of the time in hilly area like PoF and Stone Deaf not absorbing a magic attack that's greater than 10% (although it's pretty rare, it does happen).</P> <P> </P> <P>Other than small things like that, I'm pretty happy.</P> <P> </P>

[Teche]

<P></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN></P><SPAN> <P><SPAN>These of course are my opinions and probably not shared by all.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I still have not seen this great tanking ability I am supposed to have.  We rock in groups and many 2x situations, and can tank any t5 epic NP but we have not had much luck using brawlers or monks for t6 stuff, bad hits where we get 2 or 3 shotted are still not uncommon.  We dont even excel against mobs that we should using our def stance with added resists against poison...</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Stone deaf sucks, 30 seconds is way to short.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Taunts being resisted way too much sucks</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Calloused skin is worthless because taunts are resisted so much even with taunts not being resisted this is worthless since much of our agro comes from dps since we only have one single target taunt (and rescue with a 10 min reuse)</SPAN></SPAN></P>

[Ar]

Recently leveled 60 on Mistmoore Most often I feel the lack in diversity is what is missing for our class in terms of quests, weapons and armor. That, however, goes in par with the general fact that most people don't know our class very well. We are very versatile, maybe too much compared to alot of classes and sometime people don't know that we can tank. Others don't know that we could provide a good share of DPS while keeping adds in check with offtanking, mezes, fears. Sortof of a paradox, we have a very versatile gameplay and very limited choice in gears (look, damage type) and few quests (leather) designed for us, IMO. The fact that Bruisers don't complain much may be in part because we all know the Nerf Bat (tm) is just around the corner ready to strike and partly because the class itself might attract the kind of people that don't whine to get what they want. We can work for alot of things in-game with our solo capabilities and versatility that alows us to join alot of groups because we can fill many needs they have, and thus giving us more looting opportunities than perhaps some others. We may then be less prone to complain. This may be compensated by few gear drops designed for us, who knows. So far I much prefer being a good group tank and DPS on raids while keeping my solo abilities. That way you never stay idle for long when you log in, and the bottom line is that if you're going to pay a monthly fee for something, why not enjoy every minute of it. The best thing that could happen to us, in my book, is the game becoming more challenging. We shine when thing go bad. On an everyday basis we get the job done, nothing more, nothing less. When things go wrong however, FD with a rez item in inventory, quick named mez or fear, Intercede (absorb dmg) on the tank or agro healer, AE blast to gain agro in a messed up add situation, offtanking a mob with Calloused Skin and such are all things we do that stabilise a situation. Pound for pound, Runnyeye was a pretty good place to develop those skills and I think we need more dungeons with demanding setups. The only pressing thing in the new instanced type of gaming is to finish a map and go to the next. When SOE starts pressuring players to play well with challenging gameplay, other classes will be tuned to that and we will be able to demand more for ourselves (gears, quests). ATM if we ask too much SOE might respond by limiting bruisers instead of improving other classes (IMO). State of Bruisers right now? We need to be challenged. <div></div>

[Blackforgeo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote:<BR> My own two copper on our subclass is mostly about our functionality as a raid tank where with the right buffs we're doing very well, but I wouldn't mind seeing avoidance functioning better vs x2, x3, x4 lvl 64-65 NPCs. I think we're very well off in a group setting and really don't need a boost there, so I'm not certain how it could be balanced vs the epic and high level NPCs without causing an unbalance vs Heroics.<BR><BR>Something else of concern is the fairly high amount of Combat Arts at lvl 60 that are Crushing only, and the fairly high amount of <BR>Crush immune x2 and x4 encounters that are in the various raid instances. A solution to this issue without changing the epic encounters would be to flag more of our Combat Arts as no-specific damage type and let it work off our weapons. We'll still need to swap weapons for the various encounters if we want to do damage, but at least we won't be as restricted as we are currently. <P>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Jez, these are my two biggest gripes as well...and I agree with you.</P> <P>The weapon should determine the type of damage you are doing (slashing-cestii, piercing-cestus, crushing-maces,handwraps,bo,quarterstaffs) as it used to be. What I am currently seeing is that it ignores the weapon type and applies the crushing damage of the combat art regardless of what you have equipped. I don't think there is another class that suffers from this and I rememeber having a set of each type just in case.</P> <P>I don't know what can be done about the level 64-65 NPCs, since our avoidance specifically states it is versus the same level opponent (and that can get streaky even with lower level mobs). Stoneskin would be nice if we could use a few more of our combat arts besides a single target taunt (which if gets resisted defeats the whole purpose and will more than likely cost you a group member or two).</P>

[Nahlis]

<P>Recently hit 57 and don't really have much to add that hasn't already been said, so this is mainly an /agree post.  The damage type limitation is really at the top of my personal list.  I wouldn't mind seeing a slight bump in avoidance potential for Raids but am completely satisfied with our role and performance in group situations and also think we perform well as off-tank backup during Raids.  Overall though I really love to play my Bruiser.  I started him as an alt for my Mystic many moons ago, mostly to explore Freeport, and enjoyed him so much the Mystic very quickly became the alt (check the levels in my sig. heh).  Since LU13 that enjoyment has just increased.  So by and large, kudos to any of you Dev types reading this.  Thanks for making the class so enjoyable.<BR><BR>Pet peeve:  More variety in Light Armor, both in styles and in choice among Fabled Gear.</P>

[Redbed]

<DIV>No complaints really, except the quality and quanity of DOF loot available to us.  The Ashen Order Quests were a real let down.  I had hoped for our own Majdul like faction but the end quest reward and the interim rewards especially were a disapointment.  I think I used one item from that line of quests out of like a choice of up to 15 rewards.  Definately isn't Brawler orientated reward wise.  But what is in the expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no complaints about the class itself, All the updates still allow me to do the thing I want to do which is damage.  I can take for single groups with absolutely no issues.  Multiple group encounters can give me trouble but against single targets Its no contest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doing raid zones however....not really viable unless I have twice the # of healers a guardian needs, thats partially to how I built and play the character but also partially due to the fact we cannot take hits.  I dont mind because, I can pull down the damage and provide other services to a group or raid.  I am versitile.  I never intended to be able to take hits for long periods of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Duels, forget about it.  Id have to handicap myself or my oppenant has to be really really good to beat me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sad part is I think the loot is kinda unnessary in the long run.  I was about to gate home and swapped out 3 pieces of T6 legendary for Jboots, Squigly hide legs and a Tradesman shirt and still managed to take out a Blue Heroic ^^ with the same ease as before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Probley just a lucky avoidance streak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>As far as CAs doing a particular damage type regardless of weapon, I'm pretty sure our lunging mongoose is like that now and does piercing damage regardless of what type of weapon you are using.</P> <P>I also agree that it shouldn't be that way, its really annoying.</P>

[IceDragon7878]

<DIV>i will agree with u on that gaige...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when my guild did gates again the other night i was writing down a list of all the mobs that were immune to anything we found to be not hitting, mainly just pierce/slash/crush.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>seems like 90% of the mobs are either immune to atleast 1 or 2 types of meele and some multiple types of magic, i can see where this brings a greater challenge to the game, but the fact that even when i change out my fabled crushing weapons ( which i have 6 of now, yet have no fabled that does anything but crush...) i dont even do near as much damage when putting on slashers or pierce fists, because reguardless of the weapon in our primary hand, over half of our combat arts only do crushing damage, and it really limits our ability to tank or dps these mobs very well at all...</DIV>

[brazenbrit]

<P>I think the Bruiser's are in good shape.  It's kinda funny ... we were going through Scornfeather the other day and someone in the group was concerned because the nameds have real bad stuns/stifles/fears ... I say, No problem/No problem/No problem - Closed Mind rocks as long as you know ahead of time when to use it.  And Stone Deaf is great ... basically gives us our own ward every 2 minutes and it's extra nice when you see it that absorbed that 6k nuke headed your way.  And I like at least being the Poison Control raid tank.  Hey, it's something.</P> <P>Like others have said, aggro can be a problem but I know that's kinda by design.  The long refresh on our stuns is what makes it difficult.  If all my abilities are up, I will get and hold aggro with little effort - just Iron Fist + Crushing Fury with Quarrel procing a bunch of times.  Holding multi-mob groups are ok for me, as long as I can get off Abuse at the start + Savage Blows.  Still though, if rescue and stuns aren't up it can be extremely difficult to regain aggro from excitable mages.</P> <P>Itemization has been an issue for me for a long time.  DoF quests don't offer much our way, yet I see excellent priest and mage items offered as rewards almost every time.  Some of that is because they only really need to worry about a couple stats, but it's frustrating when my options are a +wis belt, a +int bracer, or a dagger ... or finally when I get a weapon that I can use, but it's 1H - great, I'll just flip the mob the bird with my other hand.</P> <P>Raid/Fabled itemization is yet another topic.  I'm still constantly fighting for leather drops with scouts - who, again, care more about str + agi then they do about getting the added mitigation of chain armor.</P> <P> </P>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV>I agree with most that was said above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only Gripe I have as well is armor and weapons in the high end game. Always looking the same is bad enough since there is no Gi worth wearing above the leather fabled loot. And I see TONS more plate and chain fabled drops then leather drops. And when a leather fabled actually does drop every scout wants it or its a wisdom peice that a shaman/druid gets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And most/all good fabled weapons are crushing, which is annoying when you fighting crushing immune Epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other then that, I can tank for a group, I can DPS (a little) and FD in a raid, and I like the bruiser attitude... so cannot complain too much (and when I do no one cares anyways<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</DIV>

[lagerone]

<P>The comment regarding crushing immune mobs on raids in spot on.  It would nice to have some generic damage combat arts.</P> <P>Over all the changes were fairly positive.  We can now tank effectively for groups.  Our DPS was significantly reduced but it is still reasonable and I find myself more often behind the mob than in front.</P> <P>My own intuitive experience is that on the raid mobs or mobs substantially higher in level to us plate tanks seem to fair much better, so I concur with the comment of avoidance.</P> <P>Would be nice to have a greater range of brawler type looks.  There is only T6 Gi in game (known), no tailor made, and 2 T6 Treasured with relatively low mitigation.</P>

[CosmicAcidGu]

I'm also happy with the current state of the bruiser. I have a lot of fun playing him. I doubt the crushing only combat arts will be changed. Reason for that is that raid mobs also have immunites against certain spell classes. Wizards have reduced dps against mobs with high magic/heat resist. And that does not change by switching the rod in their hand. And it will not change in future. Therefore it will also not change for damagetype-specific Combat Arts. Since Combat Revamp, I still see guardians tanking most raid stuff. Of course that is guild specific, our raid leaders are still stuck on guardian tanking. But I'm happy as an offtank. That is basically the role I wanted to play when I made my char. What I dislike is that there are still too many situations where I get one-rounded by aoes or intercedes. mainly intercedes. Finnster <div></div>

[WapcapletT]

Well I'll get this up before the servers come back online and I see what they really changed for us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Lvl 60 bruiser on Blackburrow Agreed with a lot of you, Stone Deaf does have its bugs ( last night in Ahket Aken, Ameniphus ganked me first AE with stone deaf 3 seconds in the running) I have a SERIOUS problem with Resolute will. It seems to have a mind of its own. The best example I can think of is Rhoen's zonewide stun. It either seems that resolute will doesn't negate this,  or it's a pulsing stun that re-stuns you every second. I haven't seriously tanked any raid mobs myself, and I personally don't care to try. I played a guardian for too long and I'd rather just sit back and DPS. Other than that, we seem to be working great, aside from the many many crush immune mobs, and us not getting many ( when I say many, I mean more than two) slashers/piercers. Transgression and scaled cestii. Am I missing any? <div></div>

[Ronin]

What i hate to see is whats been happening in my guild.... I play alot, and grind alot solo or in pickup groups to get exp as much as i can. I was gone for 3 months came back to have everyone 50-53 in guild and myself setting at 40. Well took me a day to get organized with combat update, then started churning out exp. inside a month i'm 54, going on 55, caught up with most in guild and passed some. They say i'm overpowered and my skills are unfair, then they start raiding, I get last slots to fill space cause they say I don't have anything other then just a gimpy dps increase for the groups. I mean good lord, I left a game that was paced well return to one paced still the same, but with improvements. I focus my exp to things i can do quickly for most exp, and fly through levels cause of this, while they play around camping instance after instance. Get called overpowered and worthless at same time. Now i'm wondering if we don't need some improvement to our buffs we have. Maybe our buff for avoidance to one target should be a buff to the group? I don't know but really seems that alot of folks don't want to change to the new system of play and are sticking to guardian only MT and another plate class for MA, honestly I knwo i get hit less then most of the tanks in my guild so not really sure. <div></div>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RoninDF wrote:<BR>What i hate to see is whats been happening in my guild.... I play alot, and grind alot solo or in pickup groups to get exp as much as i can. I was gone for 3 months came back to have everyone 50-53 in guild and myself setting at 40. Well took me a day to get organized with combat update, then started churning out exp. inside a month i'm 54, going on 55, caught up with most in guild and passed some. They say i'm overpowered and my skills are unfair, then they start raiding, I get last slots to fill space cause they say I don't have anything other then just a gimpy dps increase for the groups. <BR><BR>I mean good lord, I left a game that was paced well return to one paced still the same, but with improvements. I focus my exp to things i can do quickly for most exp, and fly through levels cause of this, while they play around camping instance after instance. Get called overpowered and worthless at same time. Now i'm wondering if we don't need some improvement to our buffs we have. Maybe our buff for avoidance to one target should be a buff to the group? I don't know but really seems that alot of folks don't want to change to the new system of play and are sticking to guardian only MT and another plate class for MA, honestly I knwo i get hit less then most of the tanks in my guild so not really sure. <BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2>Sounds like what you actually need here, my friend,  is a nicer guild.<BR></FONT>

[Exozone]

Sonic Fists is broke, fix it now!  My only complaint. <div></div>

[1Ralte]

<DIV>- Sonic Fist still doesn't correctly work if your not in the perfict range.....</DIV> <DIV>- Stone Deaf needs a % chance to work, pathetic that i get gang [Removed for Content] by some AEs but blocks 3/3 against a different mob</DIV> <DIV>- Leather Armor seriously needs some changes to graphics, why is it that all chain/plate gets changed for the better to look different but 3/4 of my T6 gear still looks the same as if i was 40.....</DIV> <DIV>- FD.... you fail a lot more then you would think for having a 4 % of error margin....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Xing </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gora]

<P>1.  Crush only combat arts.</P> <P>2.  Lack of DOF quest items of value to brawlers.  I've done most of the quests from dof, excluding ring of fate and amulet of ro, none of it is better than rare crafted.  Given how easy rares have been to find, it's a little dissappointing.</P> <P>3.  Dunno where this fits, but getting one shotted on intervene is irritating.  Since intervene is a straight hit our lower mitigation makes it hurt.  I've taken to toggling Calloused Skin when I'm intervening on inc just to survive the initial unbuffed 1st hit.  It works well, but I'm not sure it was intended or should be that way.  </P> <P>4.  Avoidance ineffectiveness versus named mobs.  I've done no raid tanking with me as the MT.  I'm not sure how this would affect our balance as MT, but as a bruiser I cannot be a PHer tank if the MT dies.  If I take aggro when MT dies, i'm dead from a massive combat art + a reg hit before a heal can land, more akin to a scout taking aggro, then a fighter.  Usually if it's salvageable, it's because a guardian or other plate tank steps in.  Not sure this one is fixable w/o affecting overall balance, and may be more a function of raid make-up than mechanics, but it's something that bugs me. </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, it's a great class and I wouldn't change much.  Our flexible role in groups and raids make it a fun class to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Argest</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>