Bare Knuckled Fighting?

[AnAnimatedcorpse]

Could anyone post some stats concerning our unarmed combat? Would just like to know base damage and delay.... If anyone has parsed that, please post. Also has anyone learned whether or not level affects delay in a similar fashion to EQ1? I know the downside of immunities against certain mobs, but would like to see some actual delays compared to a weilded 2hander... Thanks +) <div></div>

[Owa]

<DIV>I got into weaponless fighting last night. Never been a fan before but I was up soloing some Blue Giants in Permafrost and I thought I'd give it a go. According to CombatStats, my average DPS with my Imbued Ironwood Bo varied between 185-225, whereas unarmed (Magmatic Fists Adept III) it varied from 195-290, depending on how lucky I was getting engulf to proc.</DIV> <DIV>The main downsides were the loss of power and agility that equipping weapons gives you. I was running out of power a bit faster and getting hit a little more, but getting two, three or four Engulfs for up to 1007 points of damage is pretty tasty in a fight and worth the trade off, I think. Especially as my Dirty Punch Adept III doesn't seem to be hitting the high damage numbers any more. (Has anyone else found Dirty Punch less potent recently?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, this is just against Kromise Watchmen and maybe completely different against other mobs. I'd be as interested as you to hear someone who actually knows what they're talking about give a better explanation and example than mine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: In fact there may be a compelling argument for the cash-strapped Bruiser (like me) to save the large amount of money decent t5 and t6 weapons cost, and use the savings on the best armour and jewelry to offset the extra beating you take fighting unarmed. Just a thought.</DIV><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[Yirabeth]

<span><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div> <> <> <div>EDIT: In fact there may be a compelling argument for the cash-strapped Bruiser (like me) to save the large amount of money decent t5 and t6 weapons cost, and use the savings on the best armour and jewelry to offset the extra beating you take fighting unarmed. Just a thought.</div><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class="date_text">11-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:17 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>One question about weaponless fighting (which I prefer, it suits my idea of what my bruiser IS better) is in the  matter of certain mobs being unable to be hit by less than legendary --- I am assuming bare fists aren't legendary, since I received unable to hit messages when I tanked a mob a few weeks ago --- can't remember his name, the big mob for AQ5. (I quickly re-equipped my handwraps on the fly as it were...lol) That would negate the monetary value of fighting barehanded as you'd still need to spring for the rare playermade weapons (or belonging to a raidstyle guild could loot them off uber mobs)  In any case, I still like the idea of fighting bare handed and will just need to save up for those legendary weapons... ~Yira</span><div></div>

[Owa]

<P>True - but not all legendary weapons are created - or priced - equal. The difference between imbued and non-imbued versions of the same weapon can be absolutely huge. I like to carry a legendary set of slashing, crushing and piercing just in case - but they don't have to be top of the line imbued models  - and you can get one of each for less than the price of an Imbued Ironwood Bo. Now I wish I'd spent that money on the Imbued Scaled Tunic...Oh well. Maybe when I hit 60 I'll stop making mistakes...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> (And when tanking, as long as you can hit enough to keep aggro it makes even more sense to put your cash in to armour and jewelry which augments your STR, STA etc.)</P>

[topher]

<DIV>I have used CS to parse and my DPS is always better fighting bare fisted. I dont have my imbued legendart t6 weapons yet but using magmatic fists AD3 at lvl 53 with a fabled and legendary t5 weapon bare is better !!</DIV>

[psubull]

<DIV>DPS is always better when using weapons.  That proc is there for fluff, and shouldn't be relied upon as the main means of DPS.  Sure, its 10% chance at 1k+ on mag fists, but using weapons with procs gives you more procs more often, as well as added DW DPS.  Get some good weapons (Harvest for a day or two on dens and logs) and parse again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Delay on bare hands is somewhere around 2.1, 2.2 fyi</DIV>

[Owa]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> psubullet wrote:<BR> <DIV>DPS is always better when using weapons.  That proc is there for fluff, and shouldn't be relied upon as the main means of DPS.  Sure, its 10% chance at 1k+ on mag fists, but using weapons with procs gives you more procs more often, as well as added DW DPS.  Get some good weapons (Harvest for a day or two on dens and logs) and parse again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Delay on bare hands is somewhere around 2.1, 2.2 fyi</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>'Fluff' seems a bit harsh. </P> <P>The proc on Engulf is 10%, and the proc on Gleaming Strike (from the imbued Bo) is 5%. And the procs are 628-1046 vs192-357 respectively. That seems a lot better to me, although my maths is terrible so I'm possibly mistaken.</P> <P>And - again, at least when soloing Kromise Watchmen - barefisted is simply working better for me. Those Engulfs are making up a large proportion of my damage per fight - for instance they consistently do more damage than Dirty Punch (my 'highest damage CA') and usually proc at least twice whilst I'm waiting for that CA to come up again. </P> <P>Perhaps I'm just getting lucky with Engulf - or unlucky with my Bo. Or perhaps the Imbued Bo isn't what you mean by a good weapon. If not, can you suggest something better (that isn't fabled)? Thanks.</P> <DIV>EDIT: Last five Kromise Watchmen - Dirty Punch Adept III did a total of 8,246 across the five fights, whereas Engulf did 24,009. Not very fluffy.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text><BR></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 PM</span>

[Gungo]

Um anna soloing w wpns you will get higher dps since u still get a lesser proc of engulf. The point of losing wpns (speed, stats, and proc) for an extra 5% proc rate and ~400 dam per proc doesnt make up w the benefit of using wpns. Sure its pretty to look at the big proc numbers, but its very misleading. Remeber fighting unarmed is liek fighting w a 1handed wpn.

[Owa]

Oh all right then.

[psubull]

<DIV>Bare handed w/mag fists:  1 handed, 200-300 damage per autoattack hit, 2.2 delay.  10% chance to do engulf for 1k</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>legendary T6 DW: two hits for 150-250 each hit, 1.5 delay.  10% chance to do 300-400 damage engulf.  5% chance to do gleaming strike for about about 350 damage.  5% chance to do gleaming strike for about 350 damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just looking at it that way lets you get an idea on which will let you do more damage</DIV>

[Fromingo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Um anna soloing w wpns you will get higher dps since u still get a lesser proc of engulf. The point of losing wpns (speed, stats, and proc) for an extra 5% proc rate and ~400 dam per proc doesnt make up w the benefit of using wpns. Sure its pretty to look at the big proc numbers, but its very misleading. Remeber fighting unarmed is liek fighting w a 1handed wpn. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Personally Gungo I think you should back up that statement with some parses.  Anna at least had one example of a parse.  Admittedly far from proof but it's a step further in that direction than people who simply argue against an idea and provide no back up.   </P> <P>Anna please keep fighting unarmed and armed to get some more parse numbers in various situations(group content, solo, higher lvl, lower, etc).  Your numbers intrigue me enough to want to try it when I get that proc buff with my up and coming Bruiser alt.  My 1st character from EQ1 was a monk that I took to 60(before they had 65) and I preferred fightng unarmed with just my Bubble Fists.  I look forward to seeing more.  :smileyhappy:</P>

[Owa]

<DIV>Happy to parse some more stuff - but if you want anything other than solo content tested you'll either have to find someone else or hope I get over my personality disorder.</DIV>

[Gungo]

There has been parses already done of barehanded and 2 handed RGF and dual wielding although non that i know of after the dual wiled increase. Those parses did show using a wpn was better. BUT the point i was trying to make was you still gain the benefit although at 50% effectivness of the engulf proc while fighting with wpns.

[TheSummoned]

<DIV>I have to say I kill faster with a weapon (using an ironwood Bo atm) than with barehands, although barehanded is fun at times. Nothing like crushing fury with 3 procs for 900 dmg :p</DIV>

[Ronin]

Also, Pre-LU16  2h weapons was a good way to go, but now that they increased the base dmg of dual wield weapons and upper thier proc rate a bit, dual wield is much nicer. I've used bare hands, dual and 2h and used to perfer 2h to any dual or bare, but now, dual is by far the best choice specially when it comes to stats and max dmg output. Best dual wield I can see is Pristine Imbued Ironwood quarter staves. These give 10sta 9str and 9agi, 3 BIG stats for a bruiser. This also gives you more chance to vary armor types to raise individual stats and buff up int and wis a bit, which is a good thing in long run cause your magic dmg hits *ones with red outline around the dmg number* are effected by int, in how often that hit for higher dmg. Plus your resists are effected by wisdom. While not alot of effect for either, getting a little more added bonuses like that helps. Basicly after level 40, getting the most stats with best dps is the best setup you can ask for. Only reason i step ut of dual wield is when i get stuck tanking alot of named stuff, then i use a older 2hb, Branch of the treefolk, for its less attacks so i take less ripostes. <div></div>

[AnAnimatedcorpse]

Thanks a bunch guys, just the kind of information i was looking for... Just FYI, I don't think 2 handers got nerfed as bad as people think they did..  although they did definitely up the benefit of DW's finally, I still have no trouble at all tanking heroics (haven't tried epics isnce LU16), anyone have feedback on that? <div></div>

[Wilhelm]

This is completly unscientific with no parse to back up. I was tanking the throne room in Clefts of Rujark the other night. Using imbued scaled cestii and was doing great, changed to my imbued ironwood bo staff and started getting my butt handed to me. I didnt have time to stop and parse it but there was difinitly a difference going from the dual weild to the 2h.

[Fromingo]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>There has been parses already done of barehanded and 2 handed RGF and dual wielding although <STRONG>non that i know of after the dual wiled increase.</STRONG> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's the key statement.  With major changes in combat system, previous parses are really only useful as a point of reference and not as any sort of factual data for the current game play.  I can't parseit myself currently as my Bruiser alt does not have the ability yet.   My lil newbie Bruiser's parses are showing that DW weapons are now putting out more DPS that the 2 hander(at work so don't have my logs).  HtH parsing prob pointless at my lvl as it seems to suck without the proc. </DIV>

[topher]

<P>you can put up all the figures you want, but after tons of parses me at lvl 53 soloing with 255 str using magmatic fists AD3.      EVERY EVERY EVERY single time bare fists is better DPS by about 50 but im yet to get my t6 imbued legendary weapons and still using one t5 fabled and one t5 legendary</P> <P> </P> <P>What i think is happening is the delay on bare fists is being used to calculate the proc% so when i use crushing furry and all my ca's Engulf will proc more often than with faster delay weapons</P> <P> </P> <P>fighting with weapons engulf will proc about 3 times bare fists will proc about 5 times, and when i break down engulf does most dmg by far, so i wouldnt call it fluff </P> <P>i will retest when i get my T6 imbued legendary, but if you r using t5 weapons rest assured bare fifst is by far the best DPS </P> <P>And you cant call this proc fluff when you stunn a heroic^^^ get behind it hit it with crushing furry and have engulf go off 3 times and take off 20% of the mobs health, not that this hapens all the time but i have done it quite a few </P> <p>Message Edited by topher55 on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:44 PM</span>

[Gungo]

Um topher if thats is the case and you think delay is the reason bare handed is better. You do realize that you cna buy T6 dual wield w relativly the same delay and a 2 hander w greater delay (i believe the highest dual wield delay is 2.0 whereas barefisted is 2.2 and 2 handers can be upwards of 2.3). Once again you also realize that you do recieve a lesser proc of engulf while using wpns anyway. so instead of just one proc chance you now have 3 (offesneive stance, and x2 gleaming strikes). Also i agree using barefisted is probably better for you then using t5 legendary, But T6 legandary and fabled is way better DPS then T5 items. Higher dam ratings and highr proc dam. In your case i would agree you are correct to use magmatic for more dps. Not to be condescending, but imho wpnless combat is the poor mans DPS stance. Once you acheive 2 rare imbued dual wield wpns of the correct tier. The change in dps is noticable. Once you acheive fabled in that tier the change between the 2 is undeniable.

[Gungo]

<DIV>After doing a little bit of initial testing while soloing, it seems to me that DW is now a better DPS option, and 2HB is probably the better tanking option, and is just as good as it was before at any rate. <BR><BR>The past couple days before the patch i was soloing in shimmering citadel testing out the different stances, i was also parsing DPS. Lvl 52, T6 rare BP and legs, T5 rare everything else. Mostly adept3s with a few adept1s and master2s. 2x pristine imbued ironwood fighting batons (1.5 delay) and pristine imbued ironwood bo staff (1.7 delay).<BR><BR>All parses were done with offensive stance (ad3), group haste (m2), self haste (m2) for a total of 90% haste.  2x +12 str dolls, and +12 to all stats from ring buffs for about 220 str. I also used TV on the arena pet for better avoidance. i used the latest combat stats monitor for a parser.<BR><BR>Pre-LU16...<BR>DW left me with less health, and the fights took longer. my dps was around 200 average. weapons proced every couple fights.<BR><BR>2HB was by far the superior option. my dps was around 250 average. more health, faster fights. weapons proced maybe once a fight or more.<BR><BR>Tonight I wanted to check out the nerfs to our stuns and stifles as well as the DW changes so I went back in. same gear, same everything. <BR><BR>Post-LU16...<BR>DW - fights could be extremely fast and i was left with more health than with DW before the changes, but things still got close where i had to use mend and still got into the orange by the end of the fight. A series of misses waiting for CAs to refresh and you seem to get smacked up quite a bit. Average DPS was 275 and broke 300 often. weapon would proc sometimes 3 times a fight, and usually at least once, average probably twice.<BR><BR>2HB was the same. Though I still took less dmg than DW more often than not. It still seems like I was getting far less ripostes than DW, which makes sense, cause I'm hitting about half as often. <BR><BR>So there you have it, my non-scientific observations.<BR><BR>I'd like to hear what other's have to say.<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats the closest post i have seen to a parse, but its monk related and I believe haste played a major role. In making a 2hander better for tankign then a dual wield. 90% Haste effectivly caps out dual wield wpns to the reported 0.8 delay cap whereas, a 2hander with a 2.3+ delay would use the full benefit of the haste provided. It really all comes down to the quality of wpns you can get. Treasured or 1 tier lower legandary/fabled then offesnsive stance barefisted is better< 2 rare equal tier imbued wpns dual wield <  one fabled 2hander equal tier< 2 fabled dual wield. I think that is how it should be.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:46 AM</span>

[Owa]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Unfortunately I don't have enough moolah for T6 dual-wield weapons, so I'm going to make time for the soul-destroying task of having 20 fights with the same type of mob - 10 with the imbued Ironwood Bo and 10 barefisted. Total damage given and taken across 10 fights should be a good enough test. It will be for me, anyway.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I hope all the 'barefisted is sh*te' chaps are correct - 'cause I'd hate to think all that money I spent on the Bo could've gone on taking advantage of naive half-elf warderettes.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 AM</span>

[Gungo]

In offensive stance i presume. Also what quality offensive stance would you have. I would presume the higher quality of offen-stance you have the more the pendulum would sway toward barefisted since the barefisted proc damage goes up and as the wpns proc/DR is static. either or i would think while tanking adept3 off-stance would be relatively close to a t6 imbue 2 hander.

[AnAnimatedcorpse]

Between all of the combat skills that i spam while soloing (hope you do too) i still find that i am getting a better parse witha  2hander, when you guys are parsing this are you using combat skills too? Dunno about you guys, but unless i'm saving power for something in particular, i spam our badass moves =) <div></div>

[Auntee]

<DIV>Good Evening. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I parsed a few fights last night in Enchanted Lands, half unarmed and half armed with fistwraps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have time to post all of the specifics, but I generally parsed 40%-50% higher DPS without dual-wield weapons than with them.  A couple of important points, however.  If I skipped all combat arts for the duration of the fight, the difference wasn't as pronounced.  Barefisted only resulted in a 25% increase in DPS in that circumstance.  If, however, I added 100-hand slap to the mix, DPS would jump to it's highest level because of the extra attacks and extra procs of Engulf. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been watching this for about a week now, as I just got back to my bruiser after a long hiatus, and, anecdotally, I suggest that my experience, since restarting, consistently matches the numbers from last night's parses.  I will continue to parse, however, and let you know if there's a substantial change in the numbers.  I've not checked one-handed and two-handed numbers yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  All fights were agains Seamist Maidens, Sylphs, and Fairies, and Thicket Deer.  I can't recall my personal STR numbers, but I suspect they're relatively low.  I tried to fight under the same circumstances each time--same level mob, same arts used (when I used them), same type of encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Woggi O'Woggi</DIV> <DIV>34 Bruiser, Innothule</DIV>

[Adewale]

And what are your weapons? <div></div>

[Auntee]

<P>What kind of Bruiser am I -- I can't remember what my weapons are.   Tee hee.   <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   </P> <P>I can tell you, however, that they're handwraps, each with a 15.2 damage rating.  I just can't remember the name.  Yes, I suck.</P> <P>I parsed a couple of hours of Runnyeye group fighting last night, unarmed the whole time.  I wanted to check the proc/damage rate of Engulf.  I successfully landed Crush 1074 times during my short trip through the dungeon and Engulf proc'ed 214 times.  So that's a 20% proc rate, and the average Engulf damage was 260.  Engulf was the second largest contributor to my DPS, just behind Crush and just ahead of One Hundred Hand Slap.  In fact, in a group with a Wizard, Assassin, Dirge, Templar, and Warlock, Engulf proc's ranked number three overall on the list of highest damage spells/arts/attacks--just behind Null Absolution.  Here's the specifics, please pardon the lack of tabs:</P> <DIV><BR><U>Player/Skill/  # used/ low hit/avg. hit/ high hit/ total damage</U></DIV> <DIV>woggi crush   1,074      20      89     165      96,638 11/20/05 11:08:21 PM <BR>woggi engulf     214     172     260     386      55,663 11/20/05 11:08:19 PM <BR>woggi one hundred hand slap     703      31      68     122      48,470 11/20/05 11:08:19 PM <BR>woggi crash     109     216     298     408      32,491 11/20/05 11:08:08 PM <BR>woggi grapple      96     194     258     326      24,810 11/20/05 11:08:22 PM <BR>woggi thunder fist     566      36      36      37      20,632 11/20/05 11:08:19 PM <BR>woggi break through     348      29      56     141      19,779 11/20/05 11:08:20 PM <BR>woggi haymaker      77     117     245     355      18,876 11/20/05 11:08:06 PM <BR>woggi eye gouge      89      96     210     327      18,696 11/20/05 11:08:11 PM <BR>woggi roughhousing     486      19      26      39      12,991 11/20/05 11:08:19 PM <BR>woggi fierce punch     123      51     101     167      12,527 11/20/05 11:08:04 PM <BR>woggi throat kick      78      67     129     214      10,124 11/20/05 11:05:43 PM <BR>woggi beatdown      72      99     139     187      10,041 11/20/05 11:01:53 PM <BR>woggi whirling blaze      96      79     103     141       9,959 11/20/05 10:00:00 PM <BR>woggi blitz      90      53     110     186       9,948 11/20/05 11:05:49 PM <BR>woggi nihilistics     327      25      27      31       9,057 11/20/05 11:08:20 PM <BR>woggi venomous runes     255      26      29      33       7,572 11/20/05 11:08:18 PM <BR>woggi sucker punch      14     214     432     569       6,053 11/20/05 11:08:14 PM <BR>woggi pierce      92      37      45      54       4,176 11/20/05 11:00:49 PM <BR>woggi sword of battle      46      53      85     134       3,931 11/20/05 11:05:08 PM <BR>woggi crushing anvil      29      47      67      90       1,957 11/20/05 10:56:13 PM <BR>woggi slash       2      79      81      84         163 11/20/05 10:48:10 PM <BR>woggi whirl       3      24      29      38          88 11/20/05 10:19:27 PM <BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>Anyway, the point?  Engulf, in my case, at least seems to more than make up for the lack of weapons.  Notice, also, my average Crush damage.  It's not a lot lower than what I was getting equipped with the nameless dual wield weapons. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Owa]

<P><FONT size=2>Ok, so I couldn't face ten battles with identical mobs with and without weapons - but I DID manage 5 each*.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>(There seems to be a much more comprehensive parse further down these boards - but frankly I couldn't get my head round it - so I'll keep my results simple so that stupid people like me can understand.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Animated glaciers in Permafrost [Heroic 48 ^^^]</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Solo level 54 bruiser with - and without - Imbued Ironwood Bo -  and using Magmatic Fists Adept III stance.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Total DPS across 6 fights with Bo = 1714                                  Average DPS = 286</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Total DPS across 5 fights without Bo = 1340                             Average DPS = 268</FONT></P> <P>(All rounded to nearest whole number)</P> <P><FONT size=2>So looks like I was wrong, the 'barefisted is worse' lads were right, and that Ironwood Bo wasn't a waste of money after all.</FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN>  <P><SPAN class=time_text>*Ok, <EM>about</EM> five each then.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:08 PM</span>

[Adewale]

<div></div>Damage parses that don't take into account time are kinda useless. Yes, engulf was a big part of your damage, but that doesn't mean you do more damage without fists than with. If I hit a mob 10 times for 100 hp or 1 time for 900 for the same amount of time, the first way is better, even if the big number makes you go "Wowie!" <div></div><p>Message Edited by AdewaleTD on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:56 AM</span>

[Yirabeth]

Okay I may be thinking incorrectly since I'm usually not a numbers parser, but I really am interested in this particular issue... So, would one have to add all crush dmg and engulf dmg while equipped vs. unequipped, on identical mobs, to get the true picture? I would think the remaining combat arts wouldn't count as they would do their thing no matter what sort of 'weapon' you decided to use. Just the variance of the Engulf as determined by your equipped status, plus the damage of your equipped status (regular melee, not combat arts)  I'm thinking that should show the true picture as to which is better , or even if they're about equal. Could weapon quality change this picture also? IE, higher tiered weapons (legendary vs. fabled) affect this number as well, where  you may be okay at the lower tier using no weapons but that higher quality weapon would make being equipped better. Reason I ask is I'm considering actually downloading a parser for myself to find out...and I've never been one to care much, as long as I feel useful in my little core group lol. Still, making my friends "pick up my slack" because I like the idea of fighting bare handed is a bit much...  although I suppose using handwraps is like putting on a pair of gloves so your hands don't get messed up with the mob's gore...*g*(Ppip tends to be a bit fastidious)   Also I mostly duo with this character, and therefore I not only need to keep aggro off my duo Defiler buddy, but do as much damage as possible while maintaining aggro off my buddy. ~Yira <div></div>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yirabeth wrote:<BR>Okay I may be thinking incorrectly since I'm usually not a numbers parser, but I really am interested in this particular issue...<BR><BR>So, would one have to add all crush dmg and engulf dmg while equipped vs. unequipped, on identical mobs, to get the true picture? I would think the remaining combat arts wouldn't count as they would do their thing no matter what sort of 'weapon' you decided to use. Just the variance of the Engulf as determined by your equipped status, plus the damage of your equipped status (regular melee, not combat arts)  I'm thinking that should show the true picture as to which is better , or even if they're about equal. Could weapon quality change this picture also? IE, higher tiered weapons (legendary vs. fabled) affect this number as well, where  you may be okay at the lower tier using no weapons but that higher quality weapon would make being equipped better.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would say so. Dunno about that. Probably. Yes. In that order.<BR>

[Adewale]

It's like this. Say a mob has 10k hp. WIth weapons, you do 85% crushing damage and 15% engulf damage. Without weapons, you do 65% crushing and 35% engulf. This really doesn't say anything except the expected: Bare fists gets more engulf damage. It's only when you put in a time component that the information truly becomes meaningful. Say the first fight took 60 seconds and the second fight took 75. Which is better? The first because you're killing the mob faster and and taking less damage. Also, simply putting on the different stances and doing auto attack damage isn't necessarily a good test because the use of combat arts can affect proc rates... someone else can explain that if they want to, but in general, the more arts you use, the more you will proc. <div></div>

[Ronin]

Honestly this is the best I can break it down.... DW at lvl52 I can solo blue con lvl48 heroics, I typicaly leave the fight with around 50% hp left. With 2hb i can't solo 48 heroics of the same type as well, the dps drops a bit which is leaving more time for them to inflict dmg and out damaging the recycle of my mend. Bare fisted, forget it. Loose way to much in stats to my power and hp and avoidance, which leaves me feigning or running for the horizon. Basicly it works down to this, while all are nearly the same dps, each setup costs you benifits of stats: dmg from str, avoidance from agi, hp from sta or raw hp, and power from str or raw power. Stats are 100% more useful now to you then was the case before the combat changes. You may not think  that 10 agi means anything, but going from 60% self buffed avoidance to 58% is a noticable difference. Also try using your imbued rings for a couple fights, let the things respawn then fight without those buffs, you'll see a big difference. Overall comes down to sheer numbers, and stats wins out everytime i look at it. Thats not running a parser or anything, thats pure noticable visual change in how you tank and dmg.  And let me tell you, when its noticable with just a glance, then it tends to stand out even more using parsers. Now, sure you can run tests all day long and all day long they will change a little each time, as its all random after a point anyhow, but I'm a firm believer in stats now and it is a big big difference in your ability to tank and damage. Basicly with the way i'm seeing it happening, stats are allowing you to buff yourself just enough to push yourself into the next skill level or more of ability. Take for instance, a bruiser level 52 with no stat buffs up minus your procs and stance, you'll notice a big difference in ability to take hits then if you put up the master 2 str+agi buff.  The stats are pushing you up in avoidance and damage ability to a higher level of ability, infact I tested this at lv50 fighting lvl 45 beachcombers. I first dinged lvl50 i removed the str+agi buff, and tanked a beachcomber. I was hit still pretty easy by them and i was taking a longer time to kill them and seemingly had more misses of my own. I then applied the str/agi buff and noticed I got hit alot less and was hitting them much harder. I then leveled up to 80% into level 50. Removed the str/agi buff again and tanked another beachcomber, this time i was hitting more in line with when i had the buff up before, and i was getting hit about the same as with buff up also. Then I applied the buff, and i began to dmg them way easier, and was missed even more. Breaks down to this after futher tests in more controled situations..... Seems when your str and agi are still below the cap, you gain roughly the equivalent of 1-2 skill point increase from every 20-25 points of str or agi. So loosing those stats to fighting barefisted can leave you at a big loss in effectiveness over all, specially to higher level mobs.  The skills i'm refering to is Parry, Block, crushing, and riposte. These while not all connected to those stats, are effected in similar ways by them. More agi allows you to hit more often, and more str allows for those hits to be for more damage possible. without stat buffs up i hit for the most at just what the max dmg of the weapon is, with them up i max out normally 20-30dmg above the max of the weapon. At lvl52 my bigger hits with ironwood quarter staves is arounf 190 dmg, without buffs its about 150-160, thats a big big increase from stats alone, and without weapons your loosing in my case 20sta, 18 str, and 18 agi. Thats a HUGE loss of dmg and avoidance, and compared to a 2hb, its still enough loss to alter your tanking and dmg ability a good deal. However, tanking priest and mage class mobs with DW is better then tanking fighter or scout class due to the ripostes so sorta trade off here. So  thats just soloing with your own stats and buffs, put yourself in a group and DW becomes even more powerful with the much larger stat increase you receive from others.  Basicly, Bare fist = random with ability to do alot or very little, DW = more stable with very good well rounded output, and 2HB = stable and well rounded with less stats which can make up the difference so evens out between DW and 2HB almost, but myself I tend to lean more to DW for the sheer balance and max DPS which less time a mob is alive the more chance i have to survive. <div></div>

[topher]

<P>ok, i just got my t6 legendary imbued dual wield weapons, and my DPS is better using them compared to bare fists.</P> <P>so overall what ive found is that </P> <P>T5 DW weapons = about 190 DPS</P> <P>T6 DW weapons = about 290 DPS</P> <P>bare fists = about 250 DPS</P> <P>i parsed on spectres in SS all solo self buffed, no special potions or anyhting. most of the time i couldn't even finish a spectre off with the t5 weapons but i stopped the parse when i ran so the dps is accurate. all the above were using magmatic fists AD3 stance. I dont really want to spend $$ on a 2H so i wont be parseing that. </P> <P>  All the parses above were constantly fighting the mob, no mez/fear to let CA's refresh.  </P>

[Fromingo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=2>Animated glaciers in Permafrost [Heroic 48 ^^^]</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Solo level 54 bruiser with - and without - Imbued Ironwood Bo -  and using Magmatic Fists Adept III stance.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Total DPS across 6 fights with Bo = 1714                                  Average DPS = 286</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Total DPS across 5 fights without Bo = 1340                             Average DPS = 268</FONT></P> <P>(All rounded to nearest whole number)</P> <P><FONT size=2>So looks like I was wrong, the 'barefisted is worse' lads were right, and that Ironwood Bo wasn't a waste of money after all.</FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Very cool.  Now my question is...on my high level dirge my procs get better with a higher Int.    Does that hold true for the engulf proc?     My guess is that it does since I have seen other tank procs effected by int.  So new question is what is your int?  And if you swap out some gear and get an int buff ring what's your proc damage end up being?  How does it effect your DPS?  Even if it doesn't raise above the damage of a weapon(and it might not) I would still be interested in using barehanded for those immune/resists to crushing mobs.  <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Fromingo on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:51 AM</span>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Fromingo wrote:</P> <P><BR>Very cool.  Now my question is...on my high level dirge my procs get better with a higher Int.    Does that hold true for the engulf proc?     My guess is that it does since I have seen other tank procs effected by int.  So new question is what is your int?  And if you swap out some gear and get an int buff ring what's your proc damage end up being?  How does it effect your DPS?  Even if it doesn't raise above the damage of a weapon(and it might not) I would still be interested in using barehanded for those immune/resists to crushing mobs.  <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Message Edited by Fromingo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:51 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't know anything else at all about anything. My brain was capable only of what I wrote and no more. And in the game, as in life, my intelligence is only 27.</DIV>

[SageGaspar]

<DIV>One thing to take into account is how much HP your opponents have, or how fast your group is killing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my experience, I hit one or two engulfs off my first crushing fury, and also that AE version I can't think of at the moment. When I'm fighting solos or grouped solos, I tend to post huge DPS because it's a short fight. I was with a group that had two necros, a wizard and... some type of scout, and I was consistently posting at the top of the charts as we rolled over the mobs, by a huge margin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't doubt imbued weapons pull ahead over time, and I may be wrong, but ^^^ heroics don't necessarily give you the full picture of DPS. If I can find a parser when I get back on Sunday, I'll give it a shot against solos and such, or try and take another rockin' group into LT.</DIV>

[Vorham]

<P>messing around with a Zerker guildie we decided to duel with just autoattack -- just stand there and beat on each other, no mends or buffs etc... i tried unarmed the first couple times (expecting the procs to own him) vs. dual wield T6 rare imbued cestii... a pattern emerged... I died if unarmed... with weaps it was the other way around, I killed the zerk w/o much problems</P> <P>granted was only a few  fights either way, luck coulda been a factor.. so consider this more anecdotal evidence than hard numbers</P> <P>Still, i think the chance to proc engulf is too low as it is... monks walk around with Jesus level perma-haste, but we get 10% chance and its not really 10%... a lot less actually  due to weap delay mods... PLUS it doesn't work for ranged attacks... sure you might get lucky and proc a couple times on Crushing Fury/Savage Blows but that's more the exception than the rule.  If proc chance was higher then I'd be more inclined to go unarmed</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Vorham on <span class=date_text>11-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:40 AM</span>

[Colossaltitan]

Fight with weapons unless the only things you can get your hands on are total junk.<BR> <DIV>IMO They need to make Bare Fists worth while or change our stance to make us deal more damage while having weapons equipped, or since people complain just take the crap away that makes it deal more when you have no weapons equipped so less argument comes of it.</DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> Fight with weapons unless the only things you can get your hands on are total junk.<BR> <DIV>IMO They need to make Bare Fists worth while or change our stance to make us deal more damage while having weapons equipped, or <FONT color=#ffff00>since people complain just take the crap away that makes it deal more when you have no weapons equipped so less argument comes of it.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's a fair point. Stop f*cking with our minds please, SoE. There's enough to argue about already.</DIV>

[SageGaspar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> Fight with weapons unless the only things you can get your hands on are total junk.<BR> <DIV>IMO They need to make Bare Fists worth while or change our stance to make us deal more damage while having weapons equipped, or since people complain just take the crap away that makes it deal more when you have no weapons equipped so less argument comes of it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If they made bare fists "worthwhile," then everything else would be worthless except against named mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me put it this way: against yard trash and EXP mobs, it really doesn't matter worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] whether you're using bare fists or a weapon, as each are going down pretty quickly. Use whichever makes you feel special inside. Against raid mobs and nameds, you're not using bare fists anyway <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>