Over powered or under powered, you tell me?

[Uumuuanu]

<DIV>Ok,  I am not a bitter guardian first thing,  I rarely if ever play my guardian any more and I can appreciate what they have done for many of the fighter classes.  Also I rarely if ever post outside of my area (this is my first post to the bruiser section, please tell me to get the hell out if you want).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that we have that established,  I would like some honest opinions on if you think the bruiser class is slightly over powered at current or if there is some other kind of imbalance within the fighter system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scenario -  A group of guild players (54 guardian, 53 guardian, 57 assassin, 54 SK, 50 inquisitor and 50 bruiser)  go exploring SS.  (Yes I pulled my toon out of retirement for the guild).   It is decided that we will go get some loot for people and the guild (we are VERY guild minded btw).   So we go into CoR and finally end up in the vault of dust instance.   After completing this we decided to visit lockjaws lair, just to see it (with no hope of completing it).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Events -  During these events,  53 guardian who is in full cobalt and fabled, with fabled T5 weapon and shield was assigned to be MT.  However with numerous add scenarios, off tanking was requested by the sing healer (who did a completely kick butt job BTW).   Niether the 54 guardian not the 54 SK could effectively pull and hold aggro from adds nor tank without heals as well as the 50 bruiser, who was NOT wearing T6 rare (both the 54 guardian and 54sk are partial cobalt and numerous adept3).  Ultimately it became a tanking free for all on adds usually with the 50bruiser taking aggro and holding it (beyond the ability to pull it off him without anything other then using Rescue (a guardian 1000+ hate increase on a 10 minute timer).   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After noting how well he was tanking mobs 3-7 levels higher then he was,  all 3 higher tanks agreed that he woudl tank any adds and if he got aggro during a standard fight,  we would NOT attempt to pull aggro but instead shield him (using guardian protection lines) and do any DPS we could do.  He was able to tank mobs up to 7 levels higher then he could with near to the same effectiveness or greater then either of the guardians or the SK.  His only lacking was when due to level he could no longer hit the mob (I believe it was a 58^^^ he had issues with).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Throughout the events, he was taking less damage then the 54 guard or 54 SK when they off tanked,  held aggro better then anyone other then the 57 assassin going all out DPS (yes he actually had some aggro competition) and was doing damage second only to the 57 assasin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that you have read the above,  and I am sure had your own experiences,  I would like to know what you think.  I am NOT asking for a nef of the bruisers (I honestly think you are tanking how any of the fighters shoudl be able to tank).  Without personal attacks, or the classic learn to play your toon nonsense,  do you honestly think that a toon 3-4 levels below another tank and as much as 7 levels below the mob, should be able to out tank like this?  If so, why?   Thank you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Uumuuanu on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

[Danter]

<P>I have a 53 Guardian and a 48 Bruiser, so I've been on both sides of the fence and can post based on pure experience and not on perceptions.</P> <P>Bruisers are very good tanks in AoE type situations, but verses ^^^ mobs, we really take hits hard and our avoidance isn't all that effective since the number is based off of an even con solo mob and not a ^^^ mob.</P> <DIV>The problem is that Bruisers can't hold AoE aggro well at all, but if they do hold it, they are effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In your example, I'm not sure how the 54 Guardian couldn't get aggro right away by using Reinforcement and Tremor and pretty much lock it down by using MD (since it was an cleric, not a shaman healing).  Reinforcement, if used correctly, adds like +1500 hate to a single target so I'm not sure how you lost aggro on your primary target, too, especially since the Bruiser should not have had his taunt stance up.  When I play my Guardian, holding aggro is never a problem unless it's a raid situation where MD does next to nothing due to wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if the mob was orange con or higher, the Bruiser's ability to hold aggro really goes down since the Bruiser has to hit the mob in order to hold aggro.  On orange cons, I usually hit mobs at a 10-20% hit rate which is not enough to hold aggro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the fight lasted longer than a minute, I can see the Bruiser starting to take aggro if he was in offensive stance with his taunt stance up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've played both classes and for tanking, Brawlers are better at tanking multi-mobs than plate classes, but plate classes are still much better at tanking ^^^ mobs and ^^ mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Breaking down the encounters in terms of tanking alone:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>^^^ mob -> Guardian</DIV> <DIV>2 ^^ mobs -> Guardian</DIV> <DIV>3 ^ mobs -> Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>4 even mobs -> Bruiser</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Breaking down the encounters in terms of aggro alone:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>^^^ mob -> Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>2 ^^ mobs -> Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>3 ^ mobs -> Guardian</DIV> <DIV>4 even mobs -> Guardian</DIV> <DIV>    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as being perfectly balanced, I think the Guardian class has a severe lack of DPS, a broken level 58 skill, and too many negative drawbacks on their buffs.  I also wouldn't call Bruisers overpowered in tanking either because Monks tank even better than we do.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Danterus on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:38 AM</span>

[Gungo]

yeah it seems kinda odd to me a 50 bruiser was tanking mobs 7 lvls above him and taking very little damge. At 57 if i attempted to tank a lvl 62+ mob in Poets i die  way way to fast. Although ever since lvl 50 - 57 my mitgation and avodiance drop a bit with each level. Thats mainly due to the fact there is very little upgrades beyond what i had at lvl 50. Fabled jewerly at 50 is generally > t6 jewerly. Unless u needed the extra stats. I due have alot of majority vandium now since it adds a decent amount of HP. I keep 1 BoM item and 1 HP regen item and 1 haste item other then that go full vandium for hp. I dropped a few fabled t5 peices for scaled leather. I think the only fabled piece i am going to hold onto at 60 is my cryptic reinfocred tunic. its just so nice, (offensive proc, slow, stilfe)  but i got to see how i fair wearing a scaled imbue tunic for tanking. Even still each lvl brings about lower and lower mitgation / avoidance for an even con solo.

[djinnz]

<DIV>id agree with the last poster, bruisers have thier moment early 50's were they shine, but the further past 55 you get the more the gap is closed.  i group often with a now 59 pally, since 57 he has been able to out tank me in damage taken from named mobs by a long mark, i play a defiler at the same time as my bruiser, so heal both giving me a real feel for the way each takes damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>monks and bruisers remain good group tanks, but always the potential for streaky damage taken in a bad round of hits, especially from ^^^'s and even more so from named ^^^'s</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im not saying guardians dont need work, i dont feel qualified to have an opinion on that really</DIV>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>As a long time bruiser, I can say this much....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   We can hold aggor pretty well.... mostly due to the fact that we are on the high end of the spectrum with dps for fighters.....  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  And as far as tanking witha bruiser.... well it's not easy... but it's very doable.  I have outtanked my guilds Main Tank, (Lvl 60 Guardian) a few times.... but it's really all situational.   Mobs that attack slower are probably better for a bruiser to tank, vs mobs that attack alot more rapidly.  Yes... we run the risk of having a few bad rolls and then we get 3 shotted and dead.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   It's  atricky situation to tank as a bruiser..... ( BTW I am talking about tanking raid mobs).  </DIV> <DIV>Example.....   We were doing Vox the other day.... and being that Vox is green to most of our guild.... it was basically just for fun.  Vox could barely hit me when I tanked her.... due to avoidance.  I was only getting hit like once every 10 seconds.  And with mitigation potions, and raid buffs the damage was pretty minimal when I did get hit.  Our Guardian was getting hit alot more than I was.... but his damage was even less than mine.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Now in EXP groups bruisers do very very good... but we are known for our wonderful ability to run out of power way too soon..... so that puts us at somewhat of a disadvantage..... but the fact that we can both tank and DPS is a nice balance to an EXP group.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope that helped.</DIV>

[pillb]

Bruisers have a peak from low 40's to low 50's where they do really well.  Past 55 they begin to slip under all other fighters tanking wise and by 60 it is really noticable.  There isnt one named mob non-poison based you'd <i>want</i> a Bruiser tanking if another fighter is avaiable.  Their damage is way too spikey and in raids you need every advantage you can get. Which is fine because raids can only have ONE main tank.  After that what matters mostly is DPS and Bruisers can do dps pretty well....no where near even half of what a Mage or Scout can do but at least they arent just DEAD weight.  I think most Bruisers would PREFER a DPS roll rather than a number 1 numeral uno Main Tank roll based on previous post and polls conducted here. All the bruisers should enjoy the ride because it is a short one, and past 55 they are't that special. <div></div>

[industrock]

BTW, rescue is a fighter skill, not just guardian, and at lvl 60/adept3, it is 3100+ Hate as well as the +3 hate positions.

[Ronin]

First off, I'll say this to start. . . Brawler tanks are not based souly off armor, infact I play mine more from stats then armor cause leather just doesn't give the mitigation amount to worry alot about *just my philosophy behind it, not ment to be fact*. Agi is a key to a brawlers life. I know I took stat heavy gear with 120 mit over 130-150 mit gear with less over all agi during my 40's and still am in my 50's. This held a two fold outcome in my tanking. The armor gave alot of agi mixed with my own buffs I was nearly 270agi without buffs from outside sources or afood buff. This constantly set my standard  avoidance to just over 60%, roughly 60.4 to 62.2% on average as I sub'd out armor here and there for resists. The avoidance is the key to tanking for any brawler, letting you be missed alot more. Next, while our new blocking ability worked in all directions and i believe they say agi doesn't improve this I'd say they are wrong, cause I do see alot more blocks from many directions with higher agi. This is where other tanks have it hard though also. Due to lower avoidance, a warrior or sk/pali class tank has a lot more difficulty in taking hits due to them actually taking more hits and having to rely on mitigation for helping them make it through this. This has lead me to believe myself that mitigation isn't working correctly, infact I'd say its not working near right at all. Other tank classes seem to be getting hit for just as much when they are hit and I'm hit. This tells me mitigation isn't working as intended. I've been hit by the same barrage attack and taken less dmg then the full cobalt tank next to me with mea wearing only one leg augmented tunic and rest woven thicket armor.  I'd further say that I do believe avoidance is working correctly as I do myself see a difference in landed hits on me soo as my agi drops. 10% less avoidance is a big difference in tanking ability for me. I can visually see this in just a couple fights on solo encounters, and see it even more so on heroic group fights. Basicly, taunts also I believe are another thing that needs looking into. I know SK's don't have any raw taunts that i know of that are usable while stunned of stifled and bruisers do, this is a huge difference as you get alot of stuns in the higher levels. And a well timed taunt mid stun is a great agro holding edge that all tank classes should have for raw taunts. Think sk and pali get some other type skill for use in those times, same for zerker and guards. SO I don't believe the bruisers or monks are over powered, infact i think atm they are merely just more setup to deal with mitigation being messed up and with being stunned and having available taunts for during those times. This leads me to believe that all mitigation code needs to be checked due to this. Also it leads me to believe again that all tanks need stifle proof and stun proof taunts. I'd also say that more attack skills for other tank classes besides brawlers needs to have atleast a small taunt factor implanted to add just a bit more pop to thier taunting ability. Cause I know i can out taunt a plate tank thats 4-5 levels higher to easily. I'd also say shield use should better improve your ability to block in whole or partially  all front and side attacks. Much like bruisers and thier Blocking skill. THis seems to be a major downfall to other tank types. So seems to me brawlers are not over powered but instead other tanks have under powered skills for agro holding and just normal raw ability. And then when you look at damage, while some classes need work, I don't feel bruisers are over powered at all here either, instead I think they fill the roll well with thier current setup, and need very little work. Seems to me the fact of the matter is that a dev himself plays a bruiser so allows them to be better setup and leaves the rest lacking. I know, I may be alone in these thoughts. Also know some other classes namely bards and chanter classes give me alot of grief all the time for out damaging them. I don't think this is an issue though, cause Brawlers are both dps heavy, with bruisers being the bigger gun of the two, but this is also a known fact that they are one of the highest dps classes out there on average, and a very avid tank. Just  a matter of time till the rest of the tank classes get a good look over, and get help in areas that they need also. And honestly I hope it sooner then later as I love being a Off tank instead of MT. Just feel that my true calling and place as a brawler, to dish out raw dmg, and be more of a support role in groups giving secondary protection, and alot of added dmg. Anyhow, just my thoughts, hope it gives a little light or added thoughts. <div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>Where we should be.<BR><BR>We can tank what we are meant to tank.<BR>We DPS when we are needed and someone can tank better.<BR>We tank when we need to our are meant to.<BR><BR>IMO This is what a class should be.  All classes (Aside from the tanking part, but this seems balanced).<BR>Now if SOE will simply give more utility, DPS to classes short on these things, like Guardians.<BR><BR>BTW, We aren't the only classes soloing Yellow con 4 levels above us ^^^, Last night in POF I saw a Ranger owning them coming out 100% HP, 85%+ Power and the fights only took 20-30sec or so, He was nearly all T6 Legendary.<BR><BR>Rangers seem to be the most efficient soloers in the higher levels, then Summoners, then Sorcerors, Then maybe Brawlers.</DIV>

[Redbed]

<DIV>To be honest, I never pay that much attention to other classes I havent played.  And Bruiser is the only fighter class Ive played....well a monk up to level 23 but we dont like to talk about that.  I had a lot of worry when the Revamp was still pending.  I feel we came out of the revamp same if not better, I lean towards better.  I dont think we're overpowered or underpowered.  I think we're just right.  I like to think we're the center and every other fighter class is balanced around us.  That may be arrogant but....#$(* it, Im a bruiser, it goes with the class!  Im sure its in our union manual somewhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can tank, we can damage.  My tanking is fine for heroic and lower, Havent tried Raid mobs, Mans gotta know his limitations.  I can damage from the side and the rear very adequatly.  Nothing grandiose but...servicable.  I can solo very effectively.  I have superb survival skills and in duels.....forget about it.  Duels we are gods!  Stuns rule duels and we got alot of them.  Only duel I lost I kinda went easy on the poor [Removed for Content] and he took advantage of it......Never happen again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are we unbalanced....No.  Not in my opinion.</DIV>

[industrock]

<DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Divar... were you drunk or high when you wrote that?  what exactly are you trying to say?  I lost track after the 2nd sentence.</DIV>

[Ronin]

Was not either  drunk nore high . . . If ya read it in full, it basicly says, Mitigation as per what I've seen is not working correctly. I just threw in  my findings and extra info. Was tired though when I wrote it if that helps. Anyhow, A bruiser is made of of two things . . Damage and avoidance. We play both parts very well and push limits. We can take a good beating, and we can dish it out even better. And I'd have to say we only take a beating when we don't pay attention and don't use our skills to thier fullest. If you have good agi, and decent armor, you'll come out of most fights very well off. Thats even when going toe to toe with some of the stronger mobs out there.  Point is, Bruisers are what I'd consider to be the most well balanced class out there, and all other classes need some serious help. This isn't over powered nore underpowered. This is at a glance, as close as it comes to perfection as SOE and programing can get. I actually feel sorry for most other classes, and believe they all need some major tweaking, infact some need it so badly, that the players behind those classes are lashing out at our ability. Now . . if you want to call a bruiser like myself over powered, so be it. But then when everyone cries nerf on the few clases that are ballanced and able to be played well. You'll find EVERYONE unable to advance at a honest rate due to total  unbalanced gameplay. Instead cry for soe to in turn balance your class, and make it what it should be. And leave the nerf calling to other games. <div></div>

[Vorham]

<P>Bruisers are well rounded for sure... only thing I've noticed is that while we tank well, dps well, utility well... we don't do it well enough to get invites to raids or groups that need to be super-optimized.  We aren't putting scouts or mages out of business with our dps, and the guards/zerks still do most of the tankin for my guild... while a healer or a guardian might get a "hey man, come join our raid we need you for Epic_mobXX".... not really likely that a bruiser will get such a tell.  Maybe part of it is perception, but either way, it can sometimes feel like Bruiser is kind of extraneous.</P> <P> </P>

[psubull]

Bruisers are like office temps.  Short-term solutions.  I like MTing raids, but I usually make it my job to be the one that rescues the MT before he goes down, and FD once he is stable again