Ninja Nerf - please look at it

[Ashdaren]

<DIV>All the line of Killing spirit skill have been ninja nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prior to last update, you were able to maintain this 3 minute skill. (drain Hp for more AC)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But with the lastest toggle change when the buff wears off you have to wait 3 min to use it again. Which make it a "half of the time up" skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try to explain to your group : "wait don t pull for the next 3 minute" or "i can't be the main tank on any raid that last longer than 3 min sorry"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This buff is not that uber, lose HP for AC, but it lessen the jeopardize involved in tanking as a bruiser. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enough to be the worst tank if we cannot even do our job more than 3 minut every 6 min.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plz bring it back like it was or make it fully toggable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS : It is not a big news for many of the bruiser here, but I couldn't find any post voicing about it!</DIV>

[Vorham]

<P>the higher levels of the Spirit line are all like that... last for 3 mins, with 3 min recast... sounds like they are just bringing it in line with the others.</P> <P>granted it would be cool if you could keep Spirit up all the time, but ain't happenin</P> <P>don't sweat it, Bruisers still tank well, no need to tell the group to wait for recast ... I hardly use Spirit unless its a named mob</P>

[Ashdaren]

<DIV>I m playing since november 04 and i can tell you this: This line of spell always got a recast time, though recasting it while in use would maintain it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only if you removed the buff, or let it finish completly would it take 3 min to be recastable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A huge change to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even though the benefit can seems minor to you as you are losing HP over time. You also get hit for less and your overall hp drop in a more continuous way, which actually allow healer to do their job in an easier way on you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ashdaren 58 bruiser</DIV>

[Colossaltitan]

Save it until you need it then.<BR> <DIV>Its probably here to stay.</DIV>

[Skha]

Well Deadly Spirit has always been that way for me (3min up, 3 min down), but I agree, this spell should be permanently maintainble, even if they'd have to add some other draw back. <div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

Is everburning haste or whatever (the counterpart monk skill) able to be kept up perma?

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR>Is everburning haste or whatever (the counterpart monk skill) able to be kept up perma? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, monk's haste doesnt have a recast time. I think bruiser's deadly spirit line needs to have its 3 mins duration limit removed. So we can keep it up if we're tanking raid bosses - as it's only useful in raid and most of raids dont end in 3 minutes.<BR>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV>Just my idea:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make it decrease strength and DPS to put us more in line with a gaurdian when it is up and make it permenent. </DIV>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>MakhailSammael wrote:<div>Just my idea:</div> <div> </div> <div>Make it decrease strength and DPS to put us more in line with a gaurdian when it is up and make it permenent. </div><hr></blockquote>My man =)</span><div></div>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ashdaren wrote:<div></div> <div>I m playing since november 04 and i can tell you this: This line of spell always got a recast time, though recasting it while in use would maintain it.</div> <hr></blockquote>That was always a bug and never intended. Basically you bypassed the "tradeoff" of this boost to mitigation, the 3 min recast by casting it again before it wore off. Other Combat Arts in the past functioned similarly but they too were fixed a long time ago.</span><div></div>

[Ashdaren]

<P>The thing is that I always played with this buff and I dont see any reason for change my playstyle over something that was working until now, intended or not.</P> <P>If the Dev were so unhappy with this skill, they could have at least accuse the nerf and say a word about it.</P> <P>My guess is that they never intended to nerf this skill. That's why it cannot be left like this the *half of the time tank* discussion is over since a long time.</P> <P>I suppose it is not much to ask to have this skill usable like it was before = no recast like monks buff</P>

[industrock]

<DIV>just be glad that this is a worthwhile skill now.  If i remember right, it used to drain 60% of your HP in a matter of about 30 secs.  It used to take off a whole bubble of hp per tick, lol.  And you could keep it up only if you could find the 2.3 seconds near the end of the duration that you could recast it without jacking it all up.  Kinda of like how Shrug Off was before they made it Until Cancelled.</DIV>

[Colossaltitan]

If monks haste buff that drains their HP is permanent, our Mitigation buff that drains our HP should be permanent.

[Danter]

<P>Guardians have this same problem with Anchor.</P> <P>Bottom line is that the devs should make all short duration buffs not togglable and only buffs that are until cancelled togglable.</P> <P>That would fix this problem.</P>

[Ashdaren]

<DIV>Danterus you request totally  makes sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Devs are now working on the LU16 problems and the bruiser community is kind of low actually (even more those able to raid tank, watch your own worldwide classement lol)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets hope one of them come on this forum someday ( i know moorgrad use to) or that the other tanks with this toggle/recast problem voice up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ashdaren wrote:<div>Danterus you request totally  makes sense.</div> <div> </div> <div>The Devs are now working on the LU16 problems and the bruiser community is kind of low actually (even more those able to raid tank, watch your own worldwide classement lol)</div> <div> </div> <div>Lets hope one of them come on this forum someday ( i know moorgrad use to) or that the other tanks with this toggle/recast problem voice up.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Deadly Spirit is working as intended at the moment, I wouldn't count on seeing it get changed. You were never meant to be able to toggle it and bypass the 3 min cooldown periode on it, again as I said above, it's a tradeoff for the relativly high boost to mitigation we get, it was a bug that you could avoid the 3min cooldown and it got fixed, it wasn't a nerf.</span><div></div>

[Ashdaren]

<P>Jezekiel, you use to be a clever person among the bruiser so I won't go into a debate with you about the intended or not intended recast time.</P> <P>Facts are that we have always been able to play with this skill up (which has already a downside). I don't want to consider myself as a 3Min tank all of a sudden.</P> <P>Other class have also having trouble with the Toggle+recast time buff. It is absolutly in our right to ask for it to be looked at.</P>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ashdaren wrote: <p>Jezekiel, you use to be a clever person among the bruiser so I won't go into a debate with you about the intended or not intended recast time.</p> <p>Facts are that we have always been able to play with this skill up (which has already a downside). I don't want to consider myself as a 3Min tank all of a sudden.</p> <p>Other class have also having trouble with the Toggle+recast time buff. It is absolutly in our right to ask for it to be looked at.</p><hr></blockquote>It's irrelevant wether we've always been able to keep it up for an unlimited duration by bypassing the intended downtime through a bug. It's fixed now and the Combat Art is working as intended. I already asked Moorgard wether the changes was intentional or not before my previous reply, so I don't take it kindly when you throw silly insults at me.Instead of going in circles over this subject, you should focus your energy towards coming up with an alternative to this Combat Art if you aren't happy with it and use the in game /feedback command. Personally I think it's fine for raids, most encounters I've come across so far doesn't take longer then 3 min to take down. And as far as regular exp grinding goes it's really not needed for us to tank except for the odd mini boss that spawns, I tanked just fine from 50 to 60.For reference when comparing the Monks & Bruiser Combat Arts, you shouldn't be comparing Deadly Spirit to </span>Everburning Blaze, but rather Deadly Spirit and Skin Like Mountain<span> which Roots the Monk in place and increases C/S/P resistances.</span><div></div>

[Ashdaren]

<P>Reconizing that you are a clever person is a silly insult to you?</P> <P>...</P> <P>back on subject, the fact that we always played with this skill this way means that the class was up until now balanced with this skill used full time.</P>

[industrock]

<DIV>personally, i dont think it's really fair to plate classes to have near their mitigation with far superior avoidance.  I'm fine with the changes, it's how it was supposed to be from the beginning</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Skha]

Patho I can't agree with you here, permanently maintainable Deadly Spirit line would not be overpowering. Mitigation is a must, avoidance is a nice thing to have, but thats not gonna cut against any and all orange cons, avoidance is a bonus. As it is now, we cannot tank all orange cons that cannot be killed withing 3 minutes, therefore we cant fullfill our archetype role on 100% of the content, and hence we need a boost. <div></div>

[Macross_JR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Skharr wrote:Patho I can't agree with you here, permanently maintainable Deadly Spirit line would not be overpowering. Mitigation is a must, avoidance is a nice thing to have, but thats not gonna cut against any and all orange cons, avoidance is a bonus. As it is now, we cannot tank all orange cons that cannot be killed withing 3 minutes, therefore we cant fullfill our archetype role on 100% of the content, and hence we need a boost. <div></div><hr></blockquote>So you are saying you want the Mit of Plate tanks and keep your avoidance is that right?  You don't think that is over powered?  I am glad Brawlers have become a lot better tanks.  But for a Brawler to ask for this it is way to much.</span><div></div>

[Gungo]

I have to agree w patho and jez here. If that skill was a permanat mitgation buff it would not only make us unbalnced towards plates, but unbalance us toward monks.  the spirit line is far superior then it was pre-LU13. The fact that it was allowed to be toggeled for 2 weeks does not justify leaving it the way it was not intended. It is a nice buff one the less. Being able to maintain ~60% mitigation and ~70% avoid self buffed is alot keeping that up all the time would be a bit overpowered. We are a fine class as is any fight that takes ~3min or less we are one of the preferred choices. That atm is our limitation. We have many great named tanking skills. Cures, heals, a short duration immunity (closemind), a 30 sec o crap mitgation buff, And decent single target agro control. It would seem to me our only limitation are multiple target agro control and our 3 min buff so inso far as raid tanking is concerned we are fairly balanced some raids a bruiser is preferred sometimes they are not.

[Blackforgeo]

I prefer the fact that it doesnt eat our health like it used to...sorry i agree with Jez...leave it the way it currently is and has been for a while.

[pist]

<div></div>lol.  Strongest class in the game in terms of versatility and you're crying about having to wait 3 minutes. IMO, the spell was meant to be for those "OH [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" moments, where your healer is out of power, you're almost out of power, and you get an add or somethin akin to that.  You throw that skill up and pray it does enough to save you.  Either that, you know you're going up against a named who hits hard and you need to give your healer some help.  Think of it like an emergency heal/ward.  Boo-hoo I don't want to change the way I play <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Laughable. I've got a 49 bruiser, and I love him and am completely content with the skill line and its intended use.  Sounds like you want a plate tank - maybe you should re-roll. <div></div><p>Message Edited by pist on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:09 AM</span>

[Skha]

Yeah well if my bruisers was still 49 and i'd get the kicks from killing blue con seraph with one group, id probably be content too. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>If mitigation is a must and avoidance is nice to have.. your own words why did you make an avoidance tank? The archtype quest clearly states we are an avodiance tank. Persoanlly i think avodiance is just as important to tankign as mtigation. actually i prefer to have ~70% avoid and ~70% mitgation while raid buff (w 3 min buff). Then being a plate tank w 80% mitgation and ~60% avoid. Those are genrally the current numbers i see w a raid buffed bruiser vs gaurd.</P> <P>Btw has any bruiser reached 80% avoid raid buffed i cant seem to hit 80% avoid w max agi and maxed defense (340 skill?) for a 60 bruiser w full scaled and a t6 fabled helm (+ removal ring and ring of nightblood for power regen the rest is vandium gear for hp's/stats + sotl haste belt). Working on getting those dang truth instance fabled pants sucks after nerf=p </P>

[Ashdaren]

<P>Save for the poison resist bruiser are the last row of the "who may tank in raid".</P> <P>If your guild can make you tank on 3 min fight raids, then ask yourself if not all the other tanks couldn't also tank it.</P> <P>Over 3 min fight it is even worse, therecouldn't be a worse choice. Having a "half the time" dps buff could do it, but a "half the time" tanking buff is nonsense.</P>

[Winn]

<DIV>You obviously won't be happy until you can fly, deflect arrows with your big toe and shoot Ice comets from your eyes (1.0 sec recast no less).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a 55 monk and bruiser, can safely say that there are other issues we avoidance tanks should be worried about rather than "playing the system" with your buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The way Jez describes its current incarnation the skill is "working as intended" (to coin a popular SOE phrase).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suppose next you'll be complaining when your totems and potions stop recharging,...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[psubull]

<DIV>I tank fine 3 minutes into the raid.  Point being that I grab aggro at about 1 minute (usually at 70 or 60%), slap on spirit and ride the MOB out.  Plate tanks just intercede me, and I <3 them for it.  I've even been able to tank WITHOUT the miti buff on (LJ and the chimeras in Maj'dul only.  But hey, theyre still epics!).</DIV>