Why people keep saying brusiers are overpowered?

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>I've seen many posts about it. They posted screenshots showing a bruiser having 2500+ ac with 65%+ avoidance, and also saying the bruiser can do insane damage. I mean, how the hell can a bruiser do dps under def stance or calloused skin? And why do I keep hearing people saying brusiers can tank better than any other fighters, but my bruiser in game can never get a tank job? People just dont want me to tank, they want guardians, paladins, even sk to tank even their levels are lower than me... Im kinda upset now. I cant do anything in game and still have to see so many people complaining that we're so overpowered on the forums...</DIV>

[fur]

<P>Atm we can use our level 58 stifle/stun cure to remove our stun effect from our mitigation buff, with a templar who also can do the same (stun stifle cure) a bruiser can have 80% avoidance as well as the highest mitigation , WHILE still functioning normally, thats going away though as they are flagging our stun + mitigation debuff "beneficiary" which means you cant remove the stun as its a "good" stun hehe,</P> <P>Dps wise were just about right, top of the warrior arch but still left in the dust by rogues/predators and nukers (and please dont say you can outdamage any assassin/rogue/caster at level 24 etc you wont be able to do this in the endgame=).</P> <P>Chaos 60 Brigand.</P> <P>Skull 53 Bruiser.</P> <P>Edited for spelling</P> <p>Message Edited by furok on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 AM</span>

[Owa]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 PM</span>

[Dfoley3]

I dont know , i agree that the buff portion of defense skills is buged and that adds an advantage that will be fixed, but also remember. . . monks, the more defnesive brawler, has a 300 point mitg buff for 30 sec where a bruiser has a 2k mitigation buff for 3 min... seems kinda flawed.   The difference in avoidance between a bruiser and a monk....equaly geared was about 1.2% (me vs a guildie) As for dps i have to call the bluff.   Atm bruisers are top of fighter dps where they should be, but they blow swash, brigs, assassins out of the water.  Go look at an adept 3 bruiser attack and compare it to a monks. 52 (200 more min 260 more max) monk - lunging cobra - 325 - 542 (adept 3) bruiser - barb stomp -  500- 800 (adept 3) 53 (this is the only atk that monks have better) monk - swooping crane - 285- 475 (adept 1) bru - flaming lunge - 214 - 356 (adept 1) 55 (lower min dmg, higher max, by over 100...plus a 55 atk which i wont mention cause monks got def) mnk - stalking lepoard 193- 322 (adpt 3) bru -  iron fist  150 - 430 (adpt 3) *bru - sonic fist - 520 - 874 57 (again lower min dmg but a higher max by over a 100) monk - 57 - rumbling wyrm - master 1  - 231 - 385 bruiser - 57 - pound - master 1 - 200 - 508 58 (lower min, higher max by 300) mnk - artic talon 372 - 620 (adp3) bru - upper cut  310 - 930 )ad3) 59 (higher min by 100 higher max by 150) mnk -- frozen palm - 422-703 (adp3) bru -- meteor fist - 516 - 860 60 (mnks got no 60 atk) bru only - kidney punch - adp3  500-1500 So a highly buffed bruiser with adp 3s will do on average 100 dmg more per combat art, not horrible, but in application, its severly over powered for a class to avg 100 more per hit AND let that same class buff mitigation by 2k for 3 min (this isnt the buged one) where the mroe defensive version can add 12 sec of reposte and 30 sec of 300 mitigation.....That my friends is why bruisers are over powered <div></div>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR><BR>So a highly buffed bruiser with adp 3s will do on average 100 dmg more per combat art, not horrible, but in application, its severly over powered for a class to avg 100 more per hit AND let that same class buff mitigation by 2k for 3 min (this isnt the buged one) where the mroe defensive version can add 12 sec of reposte and 30 sec of 300 mitigation.....That my friends is why bruisers are over powered<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm...deadly spirit only gives 700 ac for 3 mins (also 3 mins recast after it expired) at the cost of 2% of max hp every 6sec (so 60% of max hp if we leave it on.) I'm not even sure if the extra mitigation can help us reduce damage more than its cost or not... I almost never use this skill actually.<BR> <DIV>About level 55 ancietn skills... sonic fists is a joke. It's a pulling skill that cannot be used in melee range. Monks' 12sec 100% riposte is much better than sonic fists. If there are 2 or mobs hitting you, within the 12sec, you can probably do over 1000 riposte damage.</DIV>

[Colossaltitan]

The Bruising Spirit line is more than worth it.  The slow HP loss overtime for the bonus chunk of mitigation that it gives, Its worth it.<BR><BR> <DIV>Damage Taken over time will prove that it is worth it.</DIV>

[Vorham]

<P>Spirit is the only one worth using... since our taunts blow, and it's our procs/DPS that keeps aggro stunning yourself for 30s of uber mitigation and trying to keep aggro with 1 cheesy single target taunt on 8second recast is like saying "Hey Mr. Mob, why don't you attack the healer or DPSer? thanks" </P> <P>ATM maybe can use Close Mind to counter the stun but that will be fixed, so it's hardly a permanent class ability</P> <P>Id trade both buffs for the riposte skill in a second</P>

[Colossaltitan]

/agree!

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>I dont know , i agree that the buff portion of defense skills is buged and that adds an advantage that will be fixed, but also remember. . . monks, the more defnesive brawler, has a 300 point mitg buff for 30 sec where a bruiser has a 2k mitigation buff for 3 min... seems kinda flawed.   The difference in avoidance between a bruiser and a monk....equaly geared was about 1.2% (me vs a guildie)<BR><BR>As for dps i have to call the bluff.   Atm bruisers are top of fighter dps <FONT color=#ffff00>where</FONT> they should be, but they blow swash, brigs, assassins out of the water.  Go look at an adept 3 bruiser attack and compare it to a monks.<BR><BR>52 (200 more min 260 more max)<BR>monk - lunging cobra - 325 - 542 (adept 3)<BR>bruiser - barb stomp -  500- 800 (adept 3)<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Target has to be knocked down for the max damage here.</FONT><BR>53 (this is the only atk that monks have better)<BR>monk - swooping crane - 285- 475 (adept 1)<BR>bru - flaming lunge - 214 - 356 (adept 1)<BR><BR>55 (lower min dmg, higher max, by over 100...plus a 55 atk which i wont mention cause monks got def)<BR>mnk - stalking lepoard 193- 322 (adpt 3)<BR>bru -  iron fist  150 - 430 (adpt 3)<BR>*bru - sonic fist - 520 - 874<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Minimum range makes this useless in melee<BR></FONT>57 (again lower min dmg but a higher max by over a 100)<BR>monk - 57 - rumbling wyrm - master 1  - 231 - 385<BR>bruiser - 57 - pound - master 1 - 200 - 508<BR><BR>58 (lower min, higher max by 300)<BR>mnk - artic talon 372 - 620 (adp3)<BR>bru - upper cut  310 - 930 )ad3)<BR><BR>59 (higher min by 100 higher max by 150)<BR>mnk -- frozen palm - 422-703 (adp3)<BR>bru -- meteor fist - 516 - 860<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Uses health instead of power, not effecient when tanking.</FONT><BR>60 (mnks got no 60 atk)<BR>bru only - kidney punch - adp3  500-1500 <BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Have to be flanking or from the rear to even land this attack, not effecient when tanking except to regain agro from the rear.</FONT><BR>So a highly buffed bruiser with adp 3s will do on average 100 dmg more per combat art, not horrible, but in application, its severly over powered for a class to avg 100 more per hit AND let that same class buff mitigation by 2k for 3 min (this isnt the buged one) where the mroe defensive version can add 12 sec of reposte and 30 sec of 300 mitigation.....That my friends is why bruisers are over powered<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Deadly spirit is 907 mitigation for 60% of my health over 3 min (adept3), not even close to 2k.</FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Many of the skills that bruisers have are sitiuational and requires a lot of interactive play, this is one of the reasons that you see some bruisers (the well timed ones) solo amazing stuff and the rest cannot or will not risk the death in trying. One thing that Bruisers could complain about could be that all the rest of the fighter tree has a 50% proc rate on their hate proc buff, while we are left with half of that 25%, now we do regain that hate through our other dmg skills but these cost power and we have the lowest pool. Doesnt seem very fair</DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>I dont know , i agree that the buff portion of defense skills is buged and that adds an advantage that will be fixed, but also remember. . . monks, the more defnesive brawler, has a 300 point mitg buff for 30 sec where a bruiser has a 2k mitigation buff for 3 min... seems kinda flawed.   The difference in avoidance between a bruiser and a monk....equaly geared was about 1.2% (me vs a guildie)<BR><BR>As for dps i have to call the bluff.   Atm bruisers are top of fighter dps where they should be, but they blow swash, brigs, assassins out of the water.  Go look at an adept 3 bruiser attack and compare it to a monks.<BR><BR>52 (200 more min 260 more max)<BR>monk - lunging cobra - 325 - 542 (adept 3)<BR>bruiser - barb stomp -  500- 800 (adept 3)<BR><BR>53 (this is the only atk that monks have better)<BR>monk - swooping crane - 285- 475 (adept 1)<BR>bru - flaming lunge - 214 - 356 (adept 1)<BR><BR>55 (lower min dmg, higher max, by over 100...plus a 55 atk which i wont mention cause monks got def)<BR>mnk - stalking lepoard 193- 322 (adpt 3)<BR>bru -  iron fist  150 - 430 (adpt 3)<BR>*bru - sonic fist - 520 - 874<BR><BR>57 (again lower min dmg but a higher max by over a 100)<BR>monk - 57 - rumbling wyrm - master 1  - 231 - 385<BR>bruiser - 57 - pound - master 1 - 200 - 508<BR><BR>58 (lower min, higher max by 300)<BR>mnk - artic talon 372 - 620 (adp3)<BR>bru - upper cut  310 - 930 )ad3)<BR><BR>59 (higher min by 100 higher max by 150)<BR>mnk -- frozen palm - 422-703 (adp3)<BR>bru -- meteor fist - 516 - 860<BR><BR>60 (mnks got no 60 atk)<BR>bru only - kidney punch - adp3  500-1500<BR><BR>So a highly buffed bruiser with adp 3s will do on average 100 dmg more per combat art, not horrible, but in application, its severly over powered for a class to avg 100 more per hit AND let that same class buff mitigation by 2k for 3 min (this isnt the buged one) where the mroe defensive version can add 12 sec of reposte and 30 sec of 300 mitigation.....That my friends is why bruisers are over powered<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>First, many of your numbers are wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, whats the recast timers on these? Hitting hard is fun and all... but when you have to wait 30-40 seconds to use the ability again.. really eats into your DPS.</DIV>

[Danter]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>I dont know , i agree that the buff portion of defense skills is buged and that adds an advantage that will be fixed, but also remember. . . monks, the more defnesive brawler, has a 300 point mitg buff for 30 sec where a bruiser has a 2k mitigation buff for 3 min... seems kinda flawed.   The difference in avoidance between a bruiser and a monk....equaly geared was about 1.2% (me vs a guildie)<BR><BR>As for dps i have to call the bluff.   Atm bruisers are top of fighter dps where they should be, but they blow swash, brigs, assassins out of the water.  Go look at an adept 3 bruiser attack and compare it to a monks.<BR><BR>52 (200 more min 260 more max)<BR>monk - lunging cobra - 325 - 542 (adept 3)<BR>bruiser - barb stomp -  500- 800 (adept 3)<BR><BR>53 (this is the only atk that monks have better)<BR>monk - swooping crane - 285- 475 (adept 1)<BR>bru - flaming lunge - 214 - 356 (adept 1)<BR><BR>55 (lower min dmg, higher max, by over 100...plus a 55 atk which i wont mention cause monks got def)<BR>mnk - stalking lepoard 193- 322 (adpt 3)<BR>bru -  iron fist  150 - 430 (adpt 3)<BR>*bru - sonic fist - 520 - 874<BR><BR>57 (again lower min dmg but a higher max by over a 100)<BR>monk - 57 - rumbling wyrm - master 1  - 231 - 385<BR>bruiser - 57 - pound - master 1 - 200 - 508<BR><BR>58 (lower min, higher max by 300)<BR>mnk - artic talon 372 - 620 (adp3)<BR>bru - upper cut  310 - 930 )ad3)<BR><BR>59 (higher min by 100 higher max by 150)<BR>mnk -- frozen palm - 422-703 (adp3)<BR>bru -- meteor fist - 516 - 860<BR><BR>60 (mnks got no 60 atk)<BR>bru only - kidney punch - adp3  500-1500 <BR><BR>So a highly buffed bruiser with adp 3s will do on average 100 dmg more per combat art, not horrible, but in application, its severly over powered for a class to avg 100 more per hit AND let that same class buff mitigation by 2k for 3 min (this isnt the buged one) where the mroe defensive version can add 12 sec of reposte and 30 sec of 300 mitigation.....That my friends is why bruisers are over powered<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I see that you failed to mention that Monk's recast timers on some of their attacks is 10s lower than the Bruiser's skill.  Also, Monk's lvl 55 riposite ability vs a group of 4 mobs is like 2k damage + 5k+ heal, making it bar none, the best ability in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And most important, the Monk's spike damage in the combat arts are more consistant.  If you look at a Monk's CA and a Bruiser's CA, the Monk's CA's minimum damage will be greater than the Bruiser's minimum damage.  The reason why Bruisers do more damage than Monks is because of our offensive stance that procs when using a slow delay weapon.</DIV>

[Dfoley3]

i used the eq2 item database program for all my info as far as i know, that doesnt count any bonuses so its the raw numbers....and no those atks line up 100% for delay.As for the 55, i know its not that good which is why i specificly said i wont comment on it.As for the knockdown one....come on, thats like saying back stabs dont count cause u have to be behind the mob. If your a 60 bru and cant figure out which move to use right before it to make sure its knocked down, then you need to spend some time training.The atk that uses hp instead of power....is the exact same for monks, it costs us hp as well.Tsunami as a dps tool isnt that great, its not 5k + 2k + heals or whatever. Its 100% reposte rate from the front and blanket pary from anything behind us, to crank out 5k + 2k or whatever dps ur talking about the mob would have to be 100% hasted with 100% accuracy and all 4 mobs would need to not cast a single art, nor be stuned in that 12 sec. IE to do 2k + 5k with tsunami, with 4 mobs, not only would all 4 need to be in front, but each mob would have to be averaging 150 dps for 12 full seconds... i dont know about you, but for a group of 4 mobs to be each doing 150 dps (600dps as a whole) that would be murder, thats FHP to 0hp in,which i can tell you from tanking yellow cons at lvl 60 doesnt happen, MAYBE on the occasional named does a mob break 800 dps but thats big hits of 2.5k every 3 seconds. Tsunami is 12 seconds of not geting hit in which time a healer can get some lovin on u.Again all the numbers for the adepts i used were from the item database if your individual skill is different , gratz i dont know why but the item database gives the stats as if it was someone who cant use the spell.

[Dfoley3]

Few things, 1) i dont beleive all fighters have the same proc rate, and im 100% positive monks have the only offensive proc. I know sks guards berks all need to be hit for their proc to add hate. Also u forgot to mention that your hate proc also adds direct dmg. Something not all (if any other) fighters does.2) i was only talking about bruiser tanking in refrence to a monk. Monks also have the 2k ac buff that stuns us, but i was under the impression that deadly spirit at master 1 was 1400 mitigation for 3 min at only the cost of 2% hp per 6 sec. The monk version adds roughly 380 mitg for 30 sec with a root effect.3) situational dps is still dps, if someone playing a bruiser cant stun a mob, jump behind it and then kidney punch, then its cause he chose not to, not that its "not efficent" from stun land to finishing of casting kidney punch is rougly 2 seconds, which is about the min. duration any stun last. so its 100% fesable to perform it.4)Look at the pros of being a bru vs mnk...as far as brute dps vs tankingbru : avg of 100 more dmg per combat art, same weapons as a monk, can add 900 (was highest quoted) mitigation for 3 min periods, only 1% (roughly with exact same gear) less avoidance.monk: less dps per combat art, more hate procs per min, can add 380 mitg for 30 sec, can tsunami for 12 sec per 3 min.shared adv: both get a 2k ish ac buff that stuns us, both get some kinda spell block (granted bru is buged atm and isnt absorbing 3 spells like it should) monks get a blanket ward for 15sec for 5k of magic dmg. Monks get group fd bru get stun imunity, argubly group fd is the most useful evak in the game and self stun imunity is one of the best tools for tanking to insure no lost agro.Parses speak louder then words though.... bru do about 100 more dps then a monk and about 50-80 more dps the swash, brigs, and assassins. Yes bru should be the highest fighter, but the dif between bru and monk is the same as the dif between monk and crusader. not only that but a fighter should not be doing more dps then scouts, (bards yes, rogues and predators no).Also, a class that does more dps then its tanking counter part is fine, but the dps counterpart shouldnt also be the better tank, without hacks/abusing bugs, bru out shine monks in raw tanking because 1) their avoidance is almost identical (bru cant buff deflection as much as mnks) and 2) our mitg buff is less then half of a brusers and for 1/6 the duration... now grant u over a 6 min period both can have theirs on for exactly 3 min.... 3 consecuive min of over double mitigation is more useful in any fight then a 30 sec chunk of way less mitg. The point of the thread was to get imput as to why people say bru are over powered, im speaking from a raiding monk who competes with raiding bruisers, these are the real life examples and reasons, its not some random monk whining. Its not dif then going in the guard forum and asking them why people say they were over powered before lu13, most members of the class will refuse to admit it/accept it.monk

[Gora]

<DIV>Deadly Spirit adds 780miti at a cost of 2% max health per tick for 3min with 3 minute recast.  Calloused skin adds 1300 miti for 30 seconds at the cost of stunning the bruiser.  During the stun the bruiser has one single target taunt and zero dps.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both of these are adept1 values.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Calloused skin is godly after a bad hit or 2 on a named, but useless the rest of the time.  It can be clicked off when your hps are stabilized, so it's really more of a melee stoneskin at the cost of DPS, then a "I can do nothing for 30 seconds buff".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use Deadly Spirit all the time on named and it's probably the next spell i'll adept3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Argest</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[Moridian]

<DIV>Dude, like, the non-awesome, non-american person that doesnt rock says :</DIV> <P><FONT size=2>And as for <FONT color=#ffff00>Sorry about my poor English... Im not an American :/ </FONT>Please remember that English people speak English, whereas Americans communicate by way of a rudimentary patois  composed mainly of words like 'rocks', 'sucks', 'cool' and 'awesome'. Oh, and 'dude'.  Remove these lynchpin noises and all that remains is the sound of corndogs being devoured<EM> in potentia</EM>...</FONT></P> <P>Careful, your ugly prejudice is showing.</P><p>Message Edited by Moridian on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:53 AM</span>

[Danter]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR><BR>The atk that uses hp instead of power....is the exact same for monks, it costs us hp as well.<BR><BR>Tsunami as a dps tool isnt that great, its not 5k + 2k + heals or whatever. Its 100% reposte rate from the front and blanket pary from anything behind us, to crank out 5k + 2k or whatever dps ur talking about the mob would have to be 100% hasted with 100% accuracy and all 4 mobs would need to not cast a single art, nor be stuned in that 12 sec. IE to do 2k + 5k with tsunami, with 4 mobs, not only would all 4 need to be in front, but each mob would have to be averaging 150 dps for 12 full seconds... i dont know about you, but for a group of 4 mobs to be each doing 150 dps (600dps as a whole) that would be murder, thats FHP to 0hp in,which i can tell you from tanking yellow cons at lvl 60 doesnt happen, MAYBE on the occasional named does a mob break 800 dps but thats big hits of 2.5k every 3 seconds. Tsunami is 12 seconds of not geting hit in which time a healer can get some lovin on u.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Monk's atk that uses hp instead of power is on a 30s timer.  Bruiser's is on a 40s timer.  My brother plays a Monk, who I've played before, so I know a bit about them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tsunami isn't a DPS skil.  I never said it was.  Tsunami is a ward skill that can be used in so many ways that it's not even funny.  I'd trade any one of my 50+ CAs, plus all 3 of the new CAs for it.  It makes Monks a great choice to pull for a Raid and the best secondary tank in the game.  If the MT goes down, the Monk can use Rescue, use Tsunami, use lvl 52 Ward, and give the MT time to recover and buff up and give the healers time to figure out what the hell just happened, thus single handedly saving a raid wipe.  When raid mobs hit for 2k-3k a pop and attack every 1.5 seconds, that's 20k melee damage prevented.  A 20k damage ward that also has a frontal damage shield attached to it (Riposite).  On a group of 4 mobs that hit for 250 damage a swing, it's a 12k damage prevention with a frontal damage shield that will hit 1+ mobs every second (again Riposite).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then throw your magic ward up (lvl 52, 4.5k magic damage ward) and you basically can't take damage for 12s every 3 mins.  In 12s, a bad damage spike can happen, you can get adds, you can give the healer time to get you out of red, you can give the MT a chance to get revived and buffed, and thousands of other possibilities because of this skill.  And the best part is that it can be casted every 3 minutes.  3 minutes is not a long time at all, making it available multiple times per raid and frequently throughout normal grouping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This ability isn't overpowered at all, it's needed to balance Monks with Bruisers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And last, Monks get +wis with their +str in the Martial Focus spell line.  At level 60, that's equal to about +350 resists to all resists.  Monks also get +deflection in the Transcendent Vision line which, when casted on the Splitpaw sporeling pet, is a lot more effective than the +agi Bruisers get.  This makes up for the slight mitigation advantage Bruisers get over Monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it amusing that people who claim another class is overpowered <EM>conveniently</EM> fail to list all the advantages their class has over the class they claim.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Danterus on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:48 AM</span>

[pillb]

Monks get to pull stuff off with Tsunami that Bruisers never could.   Ever seen a Monk FD and Invis to rez his group after a wipe?  Bruisers can't invis. After the stun/stifle is fixed you would never want a Bruiser MT because every fighter gets much better tanking skills. Must be nice being a Monk with Tsunami and get be 'hero' all the time. <div></div>

[pillb]

Monk 100% haste must be nice too.  How often does Dragon Advance proc when you're hasted at 100%? You peel agro in a half second while Brusiers can only haste 15%.<div></div>

[Gaige]

We can't get 100% haste by ourselves.

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=2>Why do they post this stuff? Easy - 'cause they're c*nts. Take no notice.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>And as for <FONT color=#ffff00>Sorry about my poor English... Im not an American :/ </FONT>Please remember that English people speak English, whereas Americans communicate by way of a rudimentary patois  composed mainly of words like 'rocks', 'sucks', 'cool' and 'awesome'. Oh, and 'dude'.  Remove these lynchpin noises and all that remains is the sound of corndogs being devoured<EM> in potentia</EM>...</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by annaspider on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:36 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't appreciate the insult about Americans...dude.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  Name calling is against board rules.</DIV>

[Gungo]

gaige is correct the most a monk cna slef haste is 96%

[pillb]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I regularly group with a Monk guildy and you <i>cannot</i> say bruisers are more overpowerd.  If I had to chose again I'd gladly choose Monk just cause Tsunami since 12 seconds of Immunity is way better than 12 seconds of crappy fear/mezz. I don't think either Monks or Bruisers are overpowered right now they're where they should be after taking backseat to Guards the past 10 months. Certain plate classes just need a boost to even things out a bit.<p>Message Edited by pillbub on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 AM</span>

[Colossaltitan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pillbub wrote:<BR> I regularly group with a Monk guildy and you <I>cannot</I> say bruisers are more overpowerd.  If I had to chose again I'd gladly choose Monk just cause Tsunami because 12 seconds of Immunity is way better than 12 seconds of crappy fear/mezz.<BR><BR>I don't think either Monks or Bruisers are overpowered right now they're where they should be after taking backseat to Guards the past 10 months.<BR><BR>Certain plate classes just need a boost to even things out a bit. <P>Message Edited by pillbub on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:01 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think Bruisers and Monks are equal.<BR><BR>I also think you are right on your theory when you say Bruisers & Monks aren't overpowered, but plate classes need a boost.</DIV>

[Dfoley3]

It depends, if item haste it part of total item haste then yeah we can only get to 96% haste...if its not we get to 76%.  Haste is poopy in my honest oppinion dps modifiers > haste.  Id take hitting for 1k with a flail any day.  Get a bruiser, inquisitor, and coercer in one group and you got fighters hitting for over 1k with auto attack ;-p Again, people asked why people say bruisers are over powered i was giving my honest input.   If you think being able to fear, mez, do better dps, and tank better isnt over powered its ok soon guardians will show you the error of your ways.  As for floping to a whiped raid....if your a bruiser you can easily flop to a raid the same as a monk, our invis isnt anything special, its nice when it works but the large number of see invis'es makes FD do 90% of the work and sprint/invis do the other 10%.   In group instances, fear/mez can be > 12 sec of rest on mobs that are attacking you.   Tsunami isnt really 100% reposte, on mobs 60+ youll notice quite often that you cant reposte repostes.    So if a mob repostes your atk, its gonna hit you.   Yes tsunami is nice, yes it roxors! but again, 12 sec per 3 min isnt as useful as the consistant 3 min of +850 mitigation that yalls buff adds.  Now if your 3 min buff was identical to monks for duration (30 sec on 30 off) then it wouldnt be so bad cause then it would allow bruisers to have the improved mitigation they are supposed to have over monks but without obvious oversites like: mitigation being 3x as useful as avoidance, specialy when you gain a 850 mitigation bonus vs a monks 2% avoidance bonus. Again....im just saying why people say bruisers are over powered....yall do way to much dps, dont think so? go ask a swash, brig, or assassing, 3 classes that are supposed to out dps you.  All 3 will consistantly under perform a t4 dps (bru). <div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

Lets break this down.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>It depends, if item haste it part of total item haste then yeah we can only get to 96% haste...if its not we get to 76%.  Haste is poopy in my honest oppinion dps modifiers > haste.  Id take hitting for 1k with a flail any day.  Get a bruiser, inquisitor, and coercer in one group and you got fighters hitting for over 1k with auto attack ;-p<BR><FONT color=#cc6600>Damage dealt over time hasted or dps balances out to the same, this has been proved over an over again.<BR>Bad argument.</FONT><BR>Again, people asked why people say bruisers are over powered i was giving my honest input.   If you think being able to fear, mez, do better dps, and tank better isnt over powered its ok soon guardians will show you the error of your ways.  <BR><FONT color=#cc6600>Fear, Mez, Do DPS, and Tank Better?  All of those things? Better than who? We can Mez better than Chanters?<BR>Okay, the argument here is silly as well.<BR>We don't DPS better than? Rangers, Should be Assassins, but they are currently bugged.  If a Swashy / Brig can't out DPS us, They suck (as a player).<BR>Tank better?  Surely Guardians can tank better than Bruisers.<BR>Its arguable that Monks can tank better than Bruisers.</FONT><BR>As for floping to a whiped raid....if your a bruiser you can easily flop to a raid the same as a monk, our invis isnt anything special, its nice when it works but the large number of see invis'es makes FD do 90% of the work and sprint/invis do the other 10%.   <BR><FONT color=#cc6600>Monks invis is the counter to Bruisers Fear. This has been stated in the past, Your invis is useless on raids, our mez/fear is useless on raids. Once again, No argument here.</FONT><BR>In group instances, fear/mez can be > 12 sec of rest on mobs that are attacking you.   Tsunami isnt really 100% reposte, on mobs 60+ youll notice quite often that you cant reposte repostes.    So if a mob repostes your atk, its gonna hit you.   Yes tsunami is nice, yes it roxors! but again, 12 sec per 3 min isnt as useful as the consistant 3 min of +850 mitigation that yalls buff adds.  Now if your 3 min buff was identical to monks for duration (30 sec on 30 off) then it wouldnt be so bad cause then it would allow bruisers to have the improved mitigation they are supposed to have over monks but without obvious oversites like: mitigation being 3x as useful as avoidance, specialy when you gain a 850 mitigation bonus vs a monks 2% avoidance bonus.<BR><FONT color=#cc6600>In group instances, fear/mez can be > 12sec of the rest of the mobs attacking you?  Personally, I do not agree with this at all.  If you think 12seconds of "almost" god mode is less useful than a Fear or Mez in group situations, You must be mad.  Fear/Mez. Lets see, AOE's Kill fear, instantly.  Mez, well I have to switch, target the mob, target back. If you tanking for a group, they break the mez, plain and simple, they are assisting you.  It also is a high power cost, whats the point in taking 100 extra of your power only to prevent a healer from using 50 extra? Worthless in groups, Aside from a few minor times when you use it.</FONT><BR>Again....im just saying why people say bruisers are over powered....yall do way to much dps, dont think so? go ask a swash, brig, or assassing, 3 classes that are supposed to out dps you.  All 3 will consistantly under perform a t4 dps (bru).<BR> <FONT color=#cc6600>Rouges&Predators.  Assassins, this is understood why they are outparsed by Bruisers, why? Because their entire class is broken atm.  Rangers?  Pfft, Let me Bruiser with Adept1s to Adept3s go up against a Ranger decently equipped with relativly same level skills as me, he blows me out of the water.  Well equipped rouges would do the same (I've been parsed against a averagly equipped rouge to my well equipped bruiser and I've only won by a tiny bit each fight).  We don't do "way too much dps", We do decent DPS, But still a Wizard would be taken over a Bruiser if someone is "LF DPS" for exp or a raid.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>To top it off, its coming from a monks mouth.<BR>Who does the same things we do.<BR>Tank & Decent to Above Average DPS.<BR><BR>Bruisers aren't overpowered.</DIV> <DIV>Monks aren't overpowered.<BR>They are where they should be.<BR><BR><STRIKE>Plate classes need a boost.</STRIKE><BR>[Edit, Plate classes dont need a boost].<BR>Armor needs to be fixed so it does not scale down anymore as you progress in level, Brawlers get a natural bonus from this as they are based on avoidance and not the mitigaton numbers of their armor (which reduces as you level significantly gimping plate tanks.<BR>Guardians need a boost, whether it be to utility, tanking ability, or dps.<BR>Coercers need a boost and some raid utility back.<BR>Assassins need to be fixed and brought up to comparison with rangers.<BR>Wardens... Well I think they are already being fixed, But it would be nice if they are atleast on grounds with furys.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Colossaltitan on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 AM</span>

[Danter]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR><BR>In group instances, fear/mez can be > 12 sec of rest on mobs that are attacking you.   Tsunami isnt really 100% reposte, on mobs 60+ youll notice quite often that you cant reposte repostes.    So if a mob repostes your atk, its gonna hit you.   Yes tsunami is nice, yes it roxors! but again, 12 sec per 3 min isnt as useful as the consistant 3 min of +850 mitigation that yalls buff adds.  Now if your 3 min buff was identical to monks for duration (30 sec on 30 off) then it wouldnt be so bad cause then it would allow bruisers to have the improved mitigation they are supposed to have over monks but without obvious oversites like: mitigation being 3x as useful as avoidance, specialy when you gain a 850 mitigation bonus vs a monks 2% avoidance bonus.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Guardians are gimped right now.  My main is a Guardian and after Moorgard's "Unsung Hero" post, I shelved him because the direction SOE is heading with Guardians doesn't fit me anymore.</P> <DIV>Don't even compare our fear/mez to Tsunami.  I already explained in my previous post how good Tsunami is, but I'll do it again for the hell of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tsunami is infitinetly better because Tsunami:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Can't be resisted</DIV> <DIV>-Can't bring adds like fear</DIV> <DIV>-Can't break on attacks/DoTs</DIV> <DIV>-Works on Epics</DIV> <DIV>-Affects all mobs, not just 1</DIV> <DIV>-Does damage to the attacker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comparing Tsunami verses our mitigation buff:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Tsunami has 0 draw backs.  It does not root or stifle you</DIV> <DIV>-Tsunami prevents all melee damage, it doesn't just reduce it</DIV> <DIV>-Tsunami will not make you lose aggro in 5 seconds due to being stunned</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard already said the Close Mind bug is getting fixed, so that argument is invalid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, Monks are the <STRONG>only</STRONG> class in the game that can get 12 seconds of invulnerability...and they can do it with 0 drawbacks.  If you had 10 monks in your raid party, you can theoretically bounce Rescue and Tsunami 10 times to have 120s or 2 mins of immunity.  The raid would be 1/2 done by that time and every single healer would still be at full power and Monk A's Tsunami would almost be refreshed.  The way Rescue works now, that would be rather simple to do, too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS isn't everything.  For example, a Bruiser or Monk can out damage a Dirge, but a Dirge's buffs give the group an overall greater capability, damage and defense wise,  than the Bruiser or Monk's damage.  This is called balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassains have problems and are being "looked into," just like Guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Based upon your arguments, if Bruisers are "overpowered" then Monks are equally as "overpowered."  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Danterus on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:52 AM</span>

[Dfoley3]

I dont mind this going back and forth, but if ur gonan lie and state myths and half truths as facts im gonna have correct you again and again until you understand. Tsunami is NOT 100% invuln.   Its 92% vs mobs white con + because we cannot reposte a reposte so the 8% of the time a mob repostes us, that return hit for 1k is gonna hit unless we happen to avoid it.  Tsunami also does not block combat arts that are strictly melee dmg dots.  Ie lockjaws bite is 4k inital and 500 a tic , none of which tsunami can block, not even the inital.  Even though its pericing dmg. Tsunami cant bring adds, thats correct, HOWEVER only half of it works on all mobs...We will avoid all attacks for 12 sec, but we will only reposte hits from a frontal arch.  Downsides - Tsunami - up for 12 s down for 3 min vs 900 mitigation for 3 min down for 3.  Mitigation applys to all physical dmg hits, including lockjaws dot.  Mitigation also applies to every hit, including repostes. Deadly spirit does not root or stifle you... 12 sec of no dmg is ONLY > 3 min of better mitigation if the fights over in under 1 min, otherwise theres still 3 min gaps of taking greater dmg. Deadly spirit does not stun you.....again so u shouldnt lose agro.  your thinking of callous skin, the 2k mitg + stun that monks and bru both get.... Tsunami -Can't be resisted -----actualy it can, repostes still hit us <div>-Can't bring adds like fear ----- this is true </div> <div>-Can't break on attacks/DoTs ----no but special atks and dots still hit us, so its the same for both imho </div> <div>-Works on Epics ---- only if the epic hits for melee dmg, and not magic or special effects </div> <div>-Affects all mobs, not just 1 ----only repostes frontal arch, rest is just avoided </div> <div>-Does damage to the attacker ---- only if you can hit the target with your weapons and atk level. </div> <div> </div> <div>Comparing Tsunami verses our mitigation buff:</div> <div> </div> <div>-Tsunami has 0 draw backs.  It does not root or stifle you-----um deadly spirit doesnt either, its 2% hp every 6 seconds </div> <div>-Tsunami prevents all melee damage, it doesn't just reduce it ----12 sec of 0 dmg is not the same as 3 min of 11% less dmg </div> <div>-Tsunami will not make you lose aggro in 5 seconds due to being stunned ----again your thinking of callous spirit NOT the spell we are talking about so again your point isnt valid..... As for 12 monks bouncing rescue....HAHAH youve obviously never raided....tsunami doesnt stop special attacks, magic based melee,  dragon breath (or other special effects)....tsunami is purely dd melee based combat arts, not spells, not dots, not special effects, so the idea of having full power healers is flawed.  </div> Since u obviously have no clue about the debate: Callous skin adept 3= 1512 mitigation for  30s and 180 s recast (acording to eq2idb) this is the one that stuns you Deadly spirit master1 = 3 min of 1037 mitigation, 3 min recast, costs 2% hp per 6 sec monks version of deadly spirit Skin like mountain = 432 at master 1 for 30 sec, 30 sec recast, 2% power every 6 sec strictly speaking bruisers, the dps part of brawler, gets a mitigation buff (deadly spirit) that adds over double (2.4 to be exact) the mitigation of the tanking counter part.  Not only that 3 min of over 2.4 times the mitigation means for those 3 min a bruiser has much great tanking superiorty. Lets give you an example Lvl 64 named in poets, the eyeball.  Avg fight time 1 min 40 seconds monk tanking- same avoidance as a bru, 1k mitigation less (about 28% mitg), but for the first 12 sec takes almost no dmg (expect at least one 2.5k reposte) bru tanking - same avoidance as a monk, 1k mitg (about 40% mitg) more then a monk fore the entire duration of the fight now given both in full t6 rare, youve got a monk tanks better for the first 12 sec or a bru who tanks better for the rest of the fight because instead of getting hit for 2.5k hes geting hit for 2.1k but retains the same avoidance as a monk.   tough call when def stances are identical i wonder who wins....a fighter who does over 100dps more then a monk and takes 10% less dmg per hit, or a fighter who does 100 less dmg and only tanks better for the first 12 seconds? I am simply stating that, bruisers dps and tanking skill isnt in par.  If berserkers did 100 more dps then a guard (prolly close to that on ae groups) they sure as hell wouldnt be able to tank better then a guardian (and they dont as the guardian has the more benifical defensive buffs) bruisers are over powered simply because 1) they do more dps the rogues and assassins, now this could be fixed by reducing the bru dps or fixing the rogues and assassins...thats up to the devs im just stating the obvious fact that a fighter is oud dpsing all scouts except ranger....which isnt supposed to happen 2) brusiers mitigation buff (DEADLY SPIRIT NOT CALLOUS SKIN) is far more benifical the the monks version as it allows the bru, with the same avoidance as a monk, gain effectivly 1k more mitg, and thus tank better over extended parses because they can have that mitg on min50% of the time,,,,Over a 6 min period, a monk can keep his mitg buff up for 3 min, same as bruiser, but the better of the two tanks receives 2.5 x less mitgation then the counter part that is already out dpsing us by 100dps 3) only a small point but monks cant keep our mitg buff up if we are power taped nor can we tsunami....now a bru can keep his mitg buff up even if hes drained oop because it costs hp....again only a small point <div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

Dfoley323, Have you read nothing I said above? Read it, Say something different to fight off your dying argument that you are losing.<BR><BR> <DIV>When soloing, I don't even use Deadly Spirit. Why? Well, The HP Drain does effect you; when your sitting there mez'd a named or whatever because he was hitting hard, the idea is to regen in this time, not take damage.<BR><BR>I don't use it unless I have a healer by my side.<BR><BR>12 Sec of Invunerability isn't as good as or is equivilant to Deadly Spirit?<BR>Are you mad?  Take your meds, re-read that.<BR><BR>Monks DPS isn't far off of what Bruisers is.<BR>Include monks into your little list to be nerfed there if you want to keep rambling on buddy.<BR></DIV>

[Danter]

<P>You forgot your 4.8k magic ward at level 52.  If you use this with Tsunami, that equals invulnerability.  What don't you understand about that?  Guess what, Bruisers take Riposites, too.  A 2k (raid mob) riposite in 12s...I'm sure that's way too much for 6 healers to handle.  That's also why you use a 2h when tanking.</P> <P><EM>"HOWEVER only half of it works on all mobs...We will avoid all attacks for 12 sec, but we will only reposte hits from a frontal arch.  "</EM></P> <P>That's an absolute joke.  If you took damage from non-frontal mobs, then this argument would be valid, but since you don't it's not.  You parry attacks from the back, so it works.</P> <P>As far as direct disease/poison attacks, SOE removed these and are planning on removing the ones they missed.  All melee attacks do crushing/piercing/slashing now.</P> <P>Again, good job not mention your +350 to all resists.  This makes Monks the superrior tank choice against 100% of all the caster mobs.  I sure would love that.</P>

[Owa]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE POST**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:28 PM</span>

[Dfoley3]

Sigh your both jokeing right?  You dont use a 1k ac buff cause its costs 2% hp every 6 sec?  Monks have self haste that costs about the same but i still use it?   Choosing not to use something that benifical is your fault, its there, you can use it whenever... and if your not using it on named heroics/epics your hurting your group/healers. And no, in a 3 min fight, 12 sec of invuln < 3 min of 1k mitigation, by a lot.  As for our ward, dont tell me your serious.  we have a 4800 point ward... yall have a magic only ward that does 3 hits of anything more then 10% of your hp.... Tech you could ward 3x 12k ice commits , thats a bit more then our ward... What + 350 to all resists are you talking about? our 79 point wis buff?....2.2*79 = 174 to all resists....and on that not we dont have the ability to buff up to 400 agi, bruisers do so yeah.... dont start stuff with bs lies u arent sure about. Monks dont buff 350 to all resists, we can avoid 4k of one spell atk per 1.5 min ....hardly the perfed tank, but way to go on looking ignorant and ignoring that your spells are better for tanking 420 agi = much higher avoidnace,...bruiser in my guild easily gets that when grouped with any class that adds just a lil agi.. with master 2, i have 180 wis...yup thats 360 to all resists from my wisdom, but of that wis only 80 comes from our wis buff 3 spell wards for anything that would have done > 10% hp  is MUCH MUCH MUCH better then a 4k ward.  A 4k ward can last 1/3 of one 12k ice commit,  stone deaf works on 3 nukes, that could block 3 x 12k....hm yeah way to make urself look even more over powered <div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

When soloing as a Bruiser the most effective tactic is not letting a mob hit you with Mez/Fear while your stuns and big CA's are down.  So whats the point of using a Mitigation buff that drains my HP if I never get hit? Slowly kill yourself for no reason? No Thanks.<BR><BR>I'll take a HP Draining Buff for Haste anyday though. Lets switch if you think ours is so useful.<BR><BR>I use it in groups btw, Like I said I did above. Please learn how to read.

[Gungo]

<P>seriously dfoley  the mtigation buff is only useful vs named heroic and/or epic.  Both of which combined is a small % of the game.  It does drain Hp alot. losing over ~110-130 hp a tick is very noticable even to me.  Now since our mtigation buff is only really useful vs named heroic and epics. Its just as useful as your 20 sec mitigation buff why ? well because on epics fights genrally last over 6 minutes  so by your own admission u get just as much use out of your mtigation buff as we do ours. 3 up named Heroics mobs well they are lucky to last 1 min now with the amount of hp they have. Seriously the wizards in my group compalin that herocis don't last more then 1 nuke. so now while xping ur mtitgation buff is up most of the time mosb die in that 30 sec interval by the time you repull and get mob back in group ur mitgation buff is up rdy to go. BTW the bruiser mtigation buff drains our hp i thought the monk one only rooted you?  </P> <P>also ur claim our spell buff can block 3 icecomets is absurd. And there is no mob in game that casts 3 12k ice comets back to back.</P> <P>1) casting 3 ice comets takes longer then the 20 secs the buff is up</P> <P>2) our buff only has a <STRONG>chance</STRONG> to block a spell.. and currently it is bugged and either doesnt work or still lets damage thru</P> <P>3) our buff onyl works direct damage spell over 10% of our hp Yours works on <STRONG>all</STRONG> spell damage. Making ur buff alot more versatile then ours. There are very few mobs out there that cna nuke for 600+ solo and 800+ grouped compared to mobs that have some form of spell damage. </P> <P>4) monks do have better aovidance then bruisers. For instance when i put up staggerign stance it is only .3% less avoidance then my T5 shrug off buff that adds 50 agi. Your TV line which adds deflection adds mroe avodiance then my SO line. And yes both cna be used in solo group etc. Further more while i am stuck over the agi cap. No longer gaining avoidnace a monk cna be buffed up to the cap and urther surpass my avodiance. So while you have more avoidance to an equal equiped bruiser solo you surpass a bruiser by a ton more grouped when you recieve additional agi buffs. Just for your info i am already at the lvl 55 agi cap of 385 using the vanadium ring buff and all my solo buffs. ot me groupign w a class that adds agi does absolutly nothing for me. Add to the fact that you have much higher wis and thus higher resists. Finally whiel monks have near the dps of bruisers they also generate more hate. Thier hate proc line which adds pure hate procs 50% of the time for a higher hate gain. Now you will claim my buff which procs for onyl 25% at a smaller hate gain does damage which is nice, but monk damage is comparable to bruiser now with that buff on. Add to the fact if the bruiser is not tanking he has to take off that buff or risk drawing agro we actually lose dps when not tanking. Monks are better tanks.</P> <P>5) solo monks self buffed max 96% haste does arguably more dps then a bruiser can. Grouped a bruiser can do a bit mroe dps recieving buffs from other classes. actually parses show and alot of monk and bruisers claim the clases are dpsing fairly equivlant. There are many more monks claiming the brawler classes are alanced then there are people who agree with you. For instance annaspider has both a 50+ bruiser and monk she has leveled and claims the classes are fairly balanced just that each have different flavor. </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I won't even get into the versatility and usefulness of tsunami as arguably one of the best tankign buffs in game. Put it this way those 12 secs of goodness gives debuffers the time needed to slow/debuff etc the mob so by the time you actually decide to take damage the mob is easily handled by you. Remeber the hardest part of any encounter is those inital 30 secs.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:28 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Our mitigation for hp ability is a joke.</P> <DIV>Take my stats for example...</DIV> <DIV>I have (unbuffed by stamina things) 3,846 hp. My current Strapping Spirit (app4) gives me 504 mitigation, which translates to 8.5% more mitigated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The cost to my health over three minutes is 62% (people forget the 2% to cast as well), which equates to <STRONG>2307.6 damage</STRONG> done to myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For that damage to have been worth it, it would have had to mitigate that amount or more in that 8.5%. If 2307.6 is the amount mitigated, then the amount of damage coming at me had to have been <STRONG>27,148</STRONG>... within 3 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since I have no way of surviving that solo, the ability is a net loss. Hence why anyone sane (or pays attention to cost/benefit) doesn't use it for solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Monk ability for Haste is so much better, because it instead helps do damage, which helps end the fight FASTER. It's not tied directly to making you survive better... it's making you do more damage, faster. Ours does absolutely nothing with ending the fight faster, so it's infinately useless in comparison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The absolute ONLY benefit it has is that it can help STABILIZE the damage coming at us, so that the hits coming in can be more manageable for the healers. Less spikey damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, when I'm buffed, I can usually reach 7k hitpoints... which means I have to be taking twice as much damage for this ability to be effective in cost. SO for those heavy damage situations, it can help the healers keep me alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the stunned, 1k+ mitigation...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the mitigation in the world is useless if you don't keep aggro, or when solo, can't kill the thing. It's not like this ability also heals us or something... it's utterly useless in solo. So I last a little longer... I'm not killing the thing (I have one dot that does pitiful damage for a very short time... not like I'm waiting on that to kill off my target).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a group if I use this, it's highly likely I'm going to lose aggro (unless I'm duoing with a priest). If I have others stop while I'm stunned, then it'll jump on the healer. And even if it didn't, then I'm causing the group to work slower, slower than if another tank had been in my position.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At best, this is good for when we are playing offtank, and accidentally get aggro. It's great to pop this on while in offensive stance, so you don't have to risk switching stance time to survive being hit. And since we WANT to lose aggro in that situation, being stunned doesn't hurt us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So as a quick recap:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 3 min on, Mitigation for Health buff is a net loss unless we are already taking and withstanding extreme damage. Therefore we are somewhat stabilizing, but putting extra straing on total damage the healers have to heal. HIGHLY SITUATIONAL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The stunned Mitigation is useless in all situations we'd need the mitigation, except in emergencies when we don't want aggro. If the tank is doing his job, and you aren't goofing around and burning, then it will rarely ever be used/needed. Even then, it's not like it's something we use to make ourselves a better tank.. if anything, it's a push towards offtanking. Once again.. HIGHLY SITUATIONAL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the honest truth about these abilities. Now I wish people would stop touting these as some massive overpowered "imbalance" with Bruisers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Devs know how these abilities work. They know how much they REALLY help us (or rather, how much they don't). If ever there's something that makes them work even better, no matter how small or limited (like the 30s from that stun immunity combo), then they fix it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People need to stop crying about these abilities. The Devs know BETTER THAN YOU how they work, and how it affects the game. If they haven't taken them out after all this whining, then they won't. They fixed the bad combo within days of it being whined about on the forums. If our abilities were really that awesome and overpowering, they would have fixed them long ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously.. I hardly use them at all, except in the scenarios I presented above. I can tell you.. I use my Intercede ability far more often than I use those two abilities, combined.</DIV>

[Ronin]

In the long run all scouts do more dps then all tanks with exception of short term fights. Bruisers and monks alike can dish out amazing dps in the first few seconds of a fight. But have you seen a 54 ranger? Personal friend is a 54 ranger, and let me tell you, its sad. I've seen him strait solo a even con lvl 54 group of truth guards and its awesome to watch. With the root trap they lay out, and the AE arrows, I've seen hits nearing 3000-5000hp in only 1-2 skills from archery. Tell me a monk or bruiser that can do that to heroic mobs in that level range? Also 99% of what your basing your info on is raw data  from descriptions, not live field tests. No tank will ever beat out a scout in long term fights except possibly bards due to thier play style being more suport then dps. In the every day EXP game, yes brawlers can deal massive dmg, but in longer fights namely epic class fights, scouts and casters shine. They can dish out more dps over time then a bruiser can even dream about having the power pool to deal. Now, take your thoughts and go fight some epics side by side, Yep Bruisers will beat out monks, but monks are more defensive and deal slightly less dmg for this reason, where bruisers relly mainly on thier offense to make up for thier lower defensive nature. Argue this all ya want, but side by side two lvl50's monk and bruisers will put out nearly the same DPS, but when the monk is taking the hits and the bruiser is constantly behind the target the bruiser will normally outdmg the monk. In 10-30 second fights though, not many classes can comepare to the power of a bruiser or monk in DPS. Cause we can fire off our attacks so fast, but at same time we also have a longer recharge time, where its mostly the opposite for casters and scouts who take longer to cast but shorter recharge times, but even still the difference between the two is still faster cycling for casters and scouts, so they are ready to fire again faster, but in your average exp group rarely have that chance cause the mob is dead and the combat stats pop up and show a bruiser or monk with higher DPS, which is a true statement in those fights but not so in longer lasting fights. Which is how it was ment to be balanced, to make raiding the mainstay of those classes. Now I ask you this, who really cares? If playe A can out hit player B in normal EXP groups, I mean if I'm a Bard, which I have a bard alt, or even say I'm a summoner, which I have that alt also, I'm not going to give a dang about some tank doing good dps in my group. Infact I love it, and love duoing with them, cause they make life easier and I live more often then not. I think everyone mainly just needs to step down off thier dang ego trip over this stuff and STF up about it anyhow, good lord its not a battle of playersvrs players to just see who has the bigger bang for the buck. Its all about using each others skills to overcome the at hand situation. If that means one class needs to be better suited to that, so be it. I'd welcome it in a heart beat. I do play a Bruiser as a main. And I do tank time to time as needed. I do practice jump behind attacks for making the most of my dmg ability, but I also like to play it safe and not chance turning mobs to the faces of scouts and priests that may also be in melee. SO when tanking unless its warranted, I just tank, and keep agro, and let the dmg fall as it falls, sure given the chance I can turn out dang good DPS, higher then all other tanks for most part, but thats not my goal, which is to survive, and have my group survive. The other classes you hear complaining are ego trip 12 year olds whining about trivial crap and should just shut up and shine where thier classes shine, which is in the proper stuation which in my feelings isn't short term fights like EXP grinds. <div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

Well Said Divar, you made the best points on this post yet <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[shaolen]

<P></P> <P>In the words of the immortal Rodney King "Why can't we all just get along". </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P></P><p>Message Edited by shaolen on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:04 PM</span>

[familyguyfan95]

<P>that was pure poetry man..pure poetry.  </P> <P>PEOPLE! STOP FOCUSING ON WHAT OTHERS HAVE AND WHAT YOU DONT....AND FOCUS ON JUST WHAT YOU HAVE!</P> <P>this is a game of teamwork!  not me work...team work.  6 ppl doing whats they do best in their respected fields.  </P> <P>Think of this game as a pot luck dinner.  If everyone brings something different to the table then we all will be fed!</P> <P></P>

[Owa]

<P></P> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Personal attacks are never welcome on this forum, it violates the simple <U>principals</U> which everyone must abide by.</FONT></DIV> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Regards,<BR>Joel "Raijinn ThunderGuard"<BR>Community Relations<BR></FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>I demand to be censored by someone who can spell, dammit!</P>

[Dfoley3]

Okay first off you guys might want to remeber that BRUISRES started this thread asking why other people say bruisers are over powered. now if "other" people come in to give their opinion and are met with oppostion it doesnt say much about your class if you wont listen to the honest answers people are giving you.Second of all. bruisers do more dps then monks by about 100dps (from parses between me and a 60 bruiser in my guild) Yes monks and bruisrs both do top dps of all fighters, yes bruisers do more dps then monks. But if you spend 4 seconds reading other threads in this post, youll see very clearly said bruisers are out dpsing swash and assassins and brigands. Those 3 classes should ALWAYS be more dps then a bruiser, and if its a 30 second or a 6 min fight, those 3 scouts are ALWAYS underperformed by equaly geared bruisers. Those 3 classes how parse at about 50dps more then monks, so yes monks dps is to close to theirs, but like some one said, rangers and wizards and warlocks are true T1 dps, and so should be assassins so ill leave assassins off as needing more work from devs. swash/brig lickwise, i beleive thy are t2, and monk/bru are t4 (same as bards) and last i checked brawlers > bards for dps by a long shot and bruisers are > swash/brig (a dps a whole Teir ahead) and again i dont know why yall are so frustrating, but yall dont realize how useful a 1k mitigation buff is, saying its no good when solo is a total lie. And ignoreing the heroic/epic potential of this buff is even more outstandingly offensive. Not all people solo 24/7 so saying somehting isnt over powered cause it doesnt work so nicely solo is a blatanty mistatment of the skills potential in refrence to the 99% of the people who group, and 10% raid. if you people dont want other classes in here answering questions with honest answers, stop asking the questions. Guardians refused to see they were over powered until they were nerfed to equality and now all they do is whine about how much worse they are...so they obviously noticed a difference. Im not asking for nerfs, but if anyone thinks bruisers will continue to out tank monks, and out dps swash/brig/assassins is a fool. and anyone who currently cannot see that these issues creat balance flaws is someone im glad is not a developer, because if you cant sit back and look at what your doing compared to what you should be doing in refrence to others, then you really shouldnt post anything to flame people who are answering questions that asked for others imput.

[Gora]

<P></P> <P>If a bruiser is outdamaging a swash/brigand on any fight lasting longer than a minute then there is a vast discrepancy in gear or the rogue is slacking.  The mitigation buff is pointless while soloing, mez/fear does the job much much better.</P> <P>Argest</P> <P>Najena</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>it doesnt say much about your class if you wont listen</FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P>What? We aren't advocates for SOE here... what we do or say reflects on us, not the class. There are lots of stupid, arrogant, ignorant people out there, there's at least one playing every class in the game. That doesn't make the "class" itself stupid, arrogant or ignorant... it's just a bunch of numbers and animations in a video game.</P> <P> </P> <P>You talk like because we refute or argue what you are saying, that somehow that means the bruiser CLASS is bad. What the heck kind of logic is that?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>and again i dont know why yall are so frustrating, but yall dont realize how useful a 1k mitigation buff is, saying its no good when solo is a total lie. And ignoreing the heroic/epic potential of this buff is even more outstandingly offensive. Not all people solo 24/7 so saying somehting isnt over powered cause it doesnt work so nicely solo is a blatanty mistatment of the skills potential in refrence to the 99% of the people who group, and 10% raid.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P>Since you obviously didn't either read my post, or didn't understand it.. I'm going to say it again, very simply:</P> <P> </P> <P>The skill gives a bonus to reducing damage done to you. In order to get this damage reducing skill, you have to take damage, from combat as well as from the ability itself. At my level, in order to have the skill reduce enough damage done to me to just over the damage done by the ability (make it a net profit in mitigated damage), I'd have to take nearly 10x my total health within three minutes. That is why, most of the time, it's a useless ability, and utterly wasteful in solo combat (not just "not good", but practically suicidal). The only thing it does is STABILIZE the damage done to you... slightly... about 8.5% more stabilized. <EM>At the cost of doing more damage to you than without it.</EM></P> <P><EM></EM> </P> <P>In other words, if you can survive without it.. if you weren't going to get a hit that would have pushed you over the edge.. <STRONG>then you are better off without having this ability up.</STRONG> It's very hard to predict when you are going to be hit for 3001 damage when you only have 3000... hence why this skill is so rarely usefull.</P> <P> </P> <P>Let me repeat this one more time... <STRONG>it is causing you more damage than you can mitigate from it within that three minute period.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P>And that's not even going into the fact that the mitigation stays a flat number, while the health cost increases with your HP (always 2%)... so it becomes more and more useless the higher your hitpoints get.<BR>Ever been raid buffed? That small amount of mitigation it's actually giving you becomes increasingly smaller.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>And if you think that our self stunned mitigation is worth anything other than emergency use, then you have no clue what it's like to keep aggro as a bruiser. This ability cannot be used in any effective manner while tanking. It's only good use is when you need to survive AND lose aggro.<BR>Yes it's a good skill... for offtanking. It does not, however, make the Bruiser a better tank.</P> <P> </P> <P>Some folks can only look at the numbers, and never look at the drawbacks and how they dictate how the skill can be used.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 PM</span>

[fur]

<P></P> <P>Dfoley you are wrong when you state that bruisers are doing more damage then swashbucklers / brigands, to start off with my 2nd toon is a 60 brigand and he blow's my bruiser out of the water dps wise. Simple as that , there is not even a competition when it comes to dps, a brigand should always be outdamaging a equally geared brawler of any type with ease unless hes slacking , now brigands have a huge issue atm with their threath dump skill beeing set to decrease threath WHEN THEY TAKE DAMAGE, dont ask me why its full out madness to force a scout into taking damage to drop threath especially on a raid , now that might be why you see bruisers doing more damage then brigand's ,cause they are holding back out of fear of stealing aggro from the mt (which is so easy to do that its rediculous) but a swashbuckler procc's a 1k+ threath reducer 20% of the time which means they can spam away with a smiley face pasted on em and there is just now way a bruiser ever can keep up with the short duration timers on rogue ca's (who do the same damage or  more then the best in the bruiser arsenal, but they have more skills and shorter timer's on all of em).</P> <P>No bruisers are firmly placed in top of the fighter tree dps , but still miles and miles below the true dps classes.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also i noted you had compared bruisers vs monks ca's , well next time check our timers, what does it matter if our ca's do 100 more damage if monk's are on shorter timers?? </P> <P>Fact of the matter is bruiser's do more damage then monk's however comparing the new ancient spell's monks come out ahead, our stone deaf is broken and non functional, it says its absorbing damage but it isnt so your 4k ward (which works) is better (at least atm), our 55 skill is a joke, oh sure its kewl to fly around smacking mobs in the air for awhile but usefull in the endgame? Heh i think not, whereas tsunami is one of THE best skills in the game, 58 group fd need i say more... while we get a 30 sec stun /stifle/pacify immunity, which i agree is kinda handy if the t6 raid fight's didnt last for 10 min +.</P> <P> </P> <P></P><p>Message Edited by furok on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:30 PM</span>

[Turb]

My swashie sure does more dps than my bruiser did at the same level.You also need to factor in buffs and debuffs, not just direct damage done. A dirge for example adds a lot of indirect dps, in fact a dirge will boost bruiser dps nicely, but that doesn't mean that if the bruiser should out dps the dirge in a log sometimes that the dirge sucks. Far from it.

[stfields]

<P></P> <P>Let me repeat this one more time... <STRONG>it is causing you more damage than you can mitigate from it within that three minute period.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P>And that's not even going into the fact that the mitigation stays a flat number, while the health cost increases with your HP (always 2%)... so it becomes more and more useless the higher your hitpoints get.<BR>Ever been raid buffed? That small amount of mitigation it's actually giving you becomes increasingly smaller.</P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>It honestly doesn't matter how much hp it absorbs from you.  Any tank or healer that has raided knows the simple truths of raiding:  Its not the<FONT size=1> little hits</FONT><FONT size=2> </FONT>that kill the MT.  Its the <FONT size=4>big ones</FONT>.  The raid mob that gets 2 consecutive "big hits" in before the MT can be healed up will kill your MT and wipe your raid.  That extra mitigation a bruiser gets at the expense of HP is what will keep them alive. </P> <P> </P> <P>The biggest downfall a monk has when tanking is that the RNG will be evil and roll 3-4 consecutive big hits in.  All the direct heals coming in will more than take care of the the measly 2% hp you lose.  HP can be quickly healed.  Power cannot be as quickly replenished. </P> <P> </P> <P>And monks shouldn't discount Tsunami.  It is a very useful ability.  Some people blow it up to be the "best ability in the game."  The fact that it doesn't block riposte is not a big deal.  Mobs don't riposte nearly as often.  And their ripostes used to be on the order of 3-4x their normal attacks.  Now riposte appears to be just a normal hit.  As for the poster that claims that the mob needs 100% accuracy to "proc" Tsunami... is incorrect.  The first check when a mob hits you is if you riposte.  When you have Tsunami up, you'll notice that you never parry/block mobs in front of you.  It doesn't check for parry/block and THEN riposte.  So, every mob that attacks from the front is riposted. </P> <P> </P> <P>Tsunami's best use that I found... use it when the big bad epic mob comes into camp and is NOT debuffed yet.  That level 60+ mob is gonna hit you with his capped skills and his initial "BOOM."  The initial BOOM will land, but not his melee skills.  Hence you don't die.  And the debuffs start landing.  After those 12s, the mob is slowed, dps decreased, and his attack skills have been knocked down by 20.  So, when Tsunami is gone, you are now just fighting a mob with a ton of HP hitting you with a toothpick instead of a whale skewer. </P> <P> </P>

[Quicksilver74]

Yeah, thats if the raid gets debuffs up in time.  And I woudl suggest you don't use auto attack or too many CA's during that 12 seconds.  Probably use taunts and mend in case healers are out of range, (which they often are at the very beginning of a fight), and mend will help you heal from that initial BOOM, as you so eliquintly put it!  heh!

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>It honestly doesn't matter how much hp it absorbs from you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It does during solo play. I stated that stuff mainly against the idea that it's "somewhat" beneficial for solo... it's zero beneficial.. it's suicidal when solo. There is no way that it can be worth it when solo. Haste is useful.. mitigation isn't, not when it costs that much health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree on the raid thing, I never said it was completely useless... I said it can ONLY be useful as a "high damage in one hit" situation to somewhat stabilize the damage (by a big fat 8.5% btw.. not altogether stunning of a stabilizing). I never said it was completely useless... just that most of the time you won't be using it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless you only pull out the Bruiser to tank raid bosses... 99% of your gaming you won't be using this ability. It's not a skill that makes us better at taking damage.. it makes us better at stabilizing damage, at the cost of more overall damage.. unless against lots-o-damage creatures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Darkwlkr]

<P> I find this funny, Two avoidance and damage tank class's bickering over nothing. Your not a mitigation tank, but get better wards and mit buffs then a Pally, and you have 4 times if not more a pally's damage. So what are yall cryen and fighten about? My armor is borked and my shied ac, and your class's get to get stat buffs I can't from being abe to wield a bow. No I don't want either of your class's nerfed, I would like mine fixed. But how is that possible, with the bickering between your two class's for nerfing and balanceing pulls away from the other tank class's needen the loven. You may have a bugged spell or two, but you didn't get beaten with the nerf bat as Pally or Guardian. And no we don't want your damage, but we like to not have to turle soloing, an our other issue's fixed. So give it a rest and enjoy what you have the rights to brag about, that the other tank class's don't.</P>

[Krelfeari]

<P>i just had to reply to anna's post about the forum mods typo...she said "dammit"</P> <P>Thats not really a word. Just thought u might wanna know that...for like...future reference...and stuff. :smileywink:</P> <P>infact, since ur in the mood to get technical over the word "principle" i should point out that the only 2 words in the entire dictionary with 2 consecutive "m"s are dammed and damming, both variations of dam. a barricade to block the flow of water.</P>

[Owa]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE POST**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinnstein's Monster on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 AM</span>

[TheSummoned]

<P>Faarwolf left. School started for her, you get the idea...</P><p>Message Edited by TheSummoned on <span class=date_text>10-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>I don't think it's Raijinn specifically, rather the program the board's use. The current moderator can just tailor the censor wording... so it'll say "haxxored by" instead of just "censored". I think back in beta forums, they had some other colorful changes in place... but it wasn't the moderator themselves that went through a list, word for word, what they wanted censored... rather it's the program that the boards use.</DIV>

[Owa]

<DIV>Ok then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Adewale]

Yeah, really adult and mature reaction from you annaspider... heh. <div></div>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AdewaleTD wrote:<BR>Yeah, really adult and mature reaction from you annaspider... heh.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What does that mean? You take issue with my exposition on written English, my railing against breathtakingly overzealous censorship, or the 'Ok then' bit? Or all of them? Or are you merely keen on <EM>non sequiturs</EM>?

[Krelfeari]

<DIV><STRONG>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</STRONG> (dam) vt. <STRONG>damned, damm'ing</STRONG> { L <EM>damnare,</EM> condemn}  <STRONG>1</STRONG> to condemn to an unhappy fate  <STRONG>2 </STRONG><EM>Theol.</EM> to condemn to hell  <STRONG>3</STRONG> to condemn as bad, inferior etc. <STRONG>4 </STRONG>to swear at by saying "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" - <STRONG>n.</STRONG> the saying of "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" as a curse - <STRONG><EM>adj., adv.</EM></STRONG> [Colloq.] <EM>short for</EM> <STRONG>DAMNED</STRONG> - <STRONG><EM>interj,</EM></STRONG> an expression of anger, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>damnation</STRONG> (-na'shen) <STRONG>n.</STRONG> a damning or being damned - <STRONG><EM>interj.</EM></STRONG> an expression of anger, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>those are straight outta my own dictionairy from home, but u can also go here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.online-dictionary.biz/english/" target=_blank>http://www.online-dictionary.biz/english/</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/" target=_blank>http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or even here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.hyperdictionary.com/" target=_blank>http://www.hyperdictionary.com/</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are more free online sources but the same joke gets old, to put it simply no dictionary I can find seems to have a clue about this word "dammit".Maybe its one of those new hip words u kids use these days like bling and...other stuff...but i doubt it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly tho, there is no point in noticing my mistakes cause I'm not so full of myself as to assume I have the right to complain about a forum mods typos on THEIR FORUM but if you think u deserve to tell raijinn that u know better, ok no problem, go ahead. Afterall ur annaspider and ur a big bad....umm...simple poster like everyone else? Right...besides the irony of my post lies in the fact that u used a word that does not exist in a post that you only made to point out ur dissatisfaction with a typo. For u to point out my typos or use of slang just shows u can read and thats about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>aside from that, with all the great scholars posting trash daily on this forum can u really expect raijinn to never make a single typo? Think u could do better? Honestly, if u were RP'ing a high elf maybe but to be that stuck up in real life is just preptastic female doggery. go ahead, tell me which of those i made up, everyone else will get the idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh and just so ya know I'm not gonna use a video game forum to debate english...point out simply irony in a short post, sure but spending time arguing over words is not my thing so if u have any more complaints or issues about ur words existance then take them to the guys that made those online dictionaries, not me, dammit. :smileytongue:</DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krelfearius wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</STRONG> (dam) vt. <STRONG>damned, damm'ing</STRONG> { L <EM>damnare,</EM> condemn}  <STRONG>1</STRONG> to condemn to an unhappy fate  <STRONG>2 </STRONG><EM>Theol.</EM> to condemn to hell  <STRONG>3</STRONG> to condemn as bad, inferior etc. <STRONG>4 </STRONG>to swear at by saying "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" - <STRONG>n.</STRONG> the saying of "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" as a curse - <STRONG><EM>adj., adv.</EM></STRONG> [Colloq.] <EM>short for</EM> <STRONG>DAMNED</STRONG> - <STRONG><EM>interj,</EM></STRONG> an expression of anger, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>damnation</STRONG> (-na'shen) <STRONG>n.</STRONG> a damning or being damned - <STRONG><EM>interj.</EM></STRONG> an expression of anger, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>those are straight outta my own dictionairy from home, but u can also go here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.online-dictionary.biz/english/" target=_blank>http://www.online-dictionary.biz/english/</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/" target=_blank>http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or even here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.hyperdictionary.com/" target=_blank>http://www.hyperdictionary.com/</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are more free online sources but the same joke gets old, to put it simply no dictionary I can find seems to have a clue about this word "dammit".Maybe its one of those new hip words u kids use these days like bling and...other stuff...but i doubt it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly tho, there is no point in noticing my mistakes cause I'm not so full of myself as to assume I have the right to complain about a forum mods typos on THEIR FORUM but if you think u deserve to tell raijinn that u know better, ok no problem, go ahead. Afterall ur annaspider and ur a big bad....umm...simple poster like everyone else? Right...besides the irony of my post lies in the fact that u used a word that does not exist in a post that you only made to point out ur dissatisfaction with a typo. For u to point out my typos or use of slang just shows u can read and thats about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>aside from that, with all the great scholars posting trash daily on this forum can u really expect raijinn to never make a single typo? Think u could do better? Honestly, if u were RP'ing a high elf maybe but to be that stuck up in real life is just preptastic female doggery. go ahead, tell me which of those i made up, everyone else will get the idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh and just so ya know I'm not gonna use a video game forum to debate english...point out simply irony in a short post, sure but spending time arguing over words is not my thing so if u have any more complaints or issues about ur words existance then take them to the guys that made those online dictionaries, not me, dammit. :smileytongue:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=2>Firstly, if you're still puzzled over 'dammit' you could always try investigating Dictionary.com, it's not nearly as exhaustive as the OED but it's free and hardly difficult to access.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Secondly, yes, I'm quite sure I could do a better job. Much better. Clearly you are in thrall to SOE - a company whose official literature is riddled with typos (or typo's as you might say) and hardly the <EM>ne plus ultra</EM> of written expression you appear to believe them to be  - and Mr Thunderdog, whose work I have already commented upon.  I myself prefer Gore Vidal. Clearly we each have writers we admire.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Thirdly, I rarely criticise grammatical skills on these boards (what would be the point even if one were to have that much free time?) but I make a special effort both for those who are paid to write (ie. the board moderators) and for 'civilians' such as yourself - who weigh in on the subject of writing without any apparent knowledge of their subject.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>After two posts replete with links to dictionaries, protests that 'arguing over words is not [your] thing' sound somewhat dubious - although arguing <EM>successfully </EM>over words may well be. Unfortunately, if one wants to involve oneself in an argument concerning words - a 'lexicontest' if you will - then one has to dispense with any pretentions to being 'jes' folks'*, and actually articulate one's point properly.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>To restate my point more succinctly: to enter into an argument, to be found sustantively wanting <EM>in</EM> that same argument and then pretend one never intended to have the argument in the first place is not a creditable (or credible) strategem.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>'Irony is as irony does', as another great American intellectual might have put it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=2>Finally, 'Annapider' is my wife's nickname. Perhaps knowing you're not arguing (and not arguing terribly well, frankly) with one of those uppity <EM>female </EM>types<EM> </EM>will take some of the sting out of the experience.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=1>*Calling people 'stuck up' for being able to argue cogently is a well-known 'jes' folks' gambit.</FONT></P>

[Shakir10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>seriously dfoley  the mtigation buff is only useful vs named heroic and/or epic.  Both of which combined is a small % of the game.</FONT>  It does drain Hp alot. losing over ~110-130 hp a tick is very noticable even to me.  Now since our mtigation buff is only really useful vs named heroic and epics. Its just as useful as your 20 sec mitigation buff why ? well because on epics fights genrally last over 6 minutes  so by your own admission u get just as much use out of your mtigation buff as we do ours. 3 up named Heroics mobs well they are lucky to last 1 min now with the amount of hp they have. Seriously the wizards in my group compalin that herocis don't last more then 1 nuke. so now while xping ur mtitgation buff is up most of the time mosb die in that 30 sec interval by the time you repull and get mob back in group ur mitgation buff is up rdy to go. BTW the bruiser mtigation buff drains our hp i thought the monk one only rooted you?  </P> <P>also ur claim our spell buff can block 3 icecomets is absurd. And there is no mob in game that casts 3 12k ice comets back to back.</P> <P>1) casting 3 ice comets takes longer then the 20 secs the buff is up</P> <P>2) our buff only has a <STRONG>chance</STRONG> to block a spell.. and currently it is bugged and either doesnt work or still lets damage thru</P> <P>3) our buff onyl works direct damage spell over 10% of our hp Yours works on <STRONG>all</STRONG> spell damage. Making ur buff alot more versatile then ours. There are very few mobs out there that cna nuke for 600+ solo and 800+ grouped compared to mobs that have some form of spell damage. </P> <P>4) monks do have better aovidance then bruisers. For instance when i put up staggerign stance it is only .3% less avoidance then my T5 shrug off buff that adds 50 agi. Your TV line which adds deflection adds mroe avodiance then my SO line. And yes both cna be used in solo group etc. Further more while i am stuck over the agi cap. No longer gaining avoidnace a monk cna be buffed up to the cap and urther surpass my avodiance. So while you have more avoidance to an equal equiped bruiser solo you surpass a bruiser by a ton more grouped when you recieve additional agi buffs. Just for your info i am already at the lvl 55 agi cap of 385 using the vanadium ring buff and all my solo buffs. ot me groupign w a class that adds agi does absolutly nothing for me. Add to the fact that you have much higher wis and thus higher resists. Finally whiel monks have near the dps of bruisers they also generate more hate. Thier hate proc line which adds pure hate procs 50% of the time for a higher hate gain. Now you will claim my buff which procs for onyl 25% at a smaller hate gain does damage which is nice, but monk damage is comparable to bruiser now with that buff on. Add to the fact if the bruiser is not tanking he has to take off that buff or risk drawing agro we actually lose dps when not tanking. Monks are better tanks.</P> <P>5) solo monks self buffed max 96% haste does arguably more dps then a bruiser can. Grouped a bruiser can do a bit mroe dps recieving buffs from other classes. actually parses show and alot of monk and bruisers claim the clases are dpsing fairly equivlant. There are many more monks claiming the brawler classes are alanced then there are people who agree with you. For instance annaspider has both a 50+ bruiser and monk she has leveled and claims the classes are fairly balanced just that each have different flavor. </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I won't even get into the versatility and usefulness of tsunami as arguably one of the best tankign buffs in game. Put it this way those 12 secs of goodness gives debuffers the time needed to slow/debuff etc the mob so by the time you actually decide to take damage the mob is easily handled by you. Remeber the hardest part of any encounter is those inital 30 secs.</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>10-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I swear, Gungo and Gaige have to be the bigges Hypocrites in the game. You justify an advantage over monks by saying, Oh gee, but it's only makes us better at raids and heroic named which is a small % of the game? You two are such [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing jokes it's insane. The exact same argument could be used by guardians pre LU13 that they were only better at a small percent of the game. But you two both insist that that is not a valid argument, so please don't use it to justify something you have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh wait, you play the same class as Moorgard, so it doesn't really matter anyway. You could have said, I play a Bruiser, get used to it.</DIV>

[Colossaltitan]

Can't we all just get along?

[Ouchy Dathurts]

<span><blockquote><hr>Krelfearius wrote: <p>infact, since ur in the mood to get technical over the word "principle" i should point out that the only 2 words in the entire dictionary with 2 consecutive "m"s are dammed and damming, both variations of dam. a barricade to block the flow of water.</p> <div></div><span></span><hr></blockquote>Since you're in the mood to get technical I should point out that those are not indeed the only 2 words in the dictionary to have 2 consecutive "m"s. Fine work trying to stick it to the man though. Just a short list; Community, and any form of the word along with Communicate, Comment and all forms of the words. I'm sure there are a ton more that i'm both too tired or too stupid to think of. But i havent had my coffee yet, and it wouldn't be the first time i've been accused of being an idiot.</span><div></div>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ouchy Dathurts wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krelfearius wrote:<BR> <P>infact, since ur in the mood to get technical over the word "principle" i should point out that the only 2 words in the entire dictionary with 2 consecutive "m"s are dammed and damming, both variations of dam. a barricade to block the flow of water.</P> <SPAN></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Since you're in the mood to get technical I should point out that those are not indeed the only 2 words in the dictionary to have 2 consecutive "m"s. Fine work trying to stick it to the man though. Just a short list; Community, and any form of the word along with Communicate, Comment and all forms of the words. I'm sure there are a ton more that i'm both too tired or too stupid to think of. But i havent had my coffee yet, and it wouldn't be the first time i've been accused of being an idiot.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Touche...

[TheSummoned]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shakir1065 wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Oh wait, you play the same class as Moorgard, so it doesn't really matter anyway. You could have said, I play a Bruiser, get used to it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yup Moorguard plays the same class as Gaige as all brawlers do, but there's a slight difference between Moorguard's and Gaige's decisions... The SUBClass isn't the same...</DIV>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Why people keep saying brusiers are overpowered?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Because I solo'd a tower in Maj'dul at level 52 in under 5minutes?</DIV>

[shaolen]

<DIV>The bottom line is that it depends on how well you play your particular class really.  Class "A" may have some advantages over Class "B", but Class "A" could have his butt handed to him by Class "B" if he doesnt know what he is doing.  This isnt a "simpler" game were better gear or spells equals an automatic win.  You have to put in an effort to learn (and after LU13 relearn) your class.  Not bragging but I am pretty sure I could hold mine, if not win against any other fighter in the game of equal level.   Why, you say?  Because I would take a moment to try and analyze any weakness I see and exploit it.  And ulitimately I could care less about another class being stronger than mine.  It doesnt affect my enjoyment of the game one bit.  </DIV>

[fur]

<DIV>This is all getting kinda old to be frank, good for colossal that he can solo a tower in less then 5 minutes, does that mean anything in the greater scheme of things ? Nope. Several classes can solo better then bruisers, a trio of necros can take down broog easily,  a warlock can smoke 3 heroic equal level encounters (watch to 100s of warlock movies available) does that mean they over powerd ? Nope, it means they are good players that utilize the tools at their disposal, half of the players crying nerf on the boards are players who still wont be able to win even if they get a "I WIN" button attached to their class, the game is set up so that you can tailor your character to different ends, a bruiser aiming for beeing a mt are gonna go heavy on stamina / hp / mitigation gear while a bruiser that aims to be 2nd tank will focus more heavily on strength, these 2 bruisers will differ wildly in how they perform but both will do very well at their intended tasks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As nothing even remotly decent drops from anything ANY class can solo in this game , it truly doesnt matter one god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bit how well we solo , what matter is how well we perform at our given task's at 60, everything else is just gravy.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV><BR> <DIV>I swear, Gungo and Gaige have to be the bigges Hypocrites in the game. You justify an advantage over monks by saying, Oh gee, but it's only makes us better at raids and heroic named which is a small % of the game? You two are such [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing jokes it's insane. The exact same argument could be used by guardians pre LU13 that they were only better at a small percent of the game. But you two both insist that that is not a valid argument, so please don't use it to justify something you have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh wait, you play the same class as Moorgard, so it doesn't really matter anyway. You could have said, I play a Bruiser, get used to it.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>haha shakir you are so full of it. Taking 1 line out of context. Fact is that mitgation buff leaves us still with less mitgation then a guard and further on i said its not truly effective vs. epics since it only lasts 3mins and real epic mobs take longer then that to kill. which menas when that buff fades we get hit alot harder. But once again thanks for voicing your insightful replys.</DIV></DIV>

[Aandien]

<DIV>Here is why bruisers are overpowered from a guardian perspective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group:</DIV> <DIV>58 guardian (me), 57 bruiser, 56 defiler, 57 inquisitor, 58 ranger, 55 coercer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>guardian and bruiser have equivlant gear on the left side (armor, ie, mitigation/avoidance stuff).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poets Palace, second floor.  Lev 63 named (the one before the eye)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tank: dead within 2 seconds, a healer next, wipe.  </DIV> <DIV>Try again: dead within 7 seconds, healers next, wipe.  </DIV> <DIV>Try again: wipe similiar results.  </DIV> <DIV>Try again: I die within 2 seconds, bruiser rescues a healer.  Fight goes on for about 30 seconds, healer decides to divert attention a sec and rez me, wipe.</DIV> <DIV>Bruiser starting tank: win.  He didn't even come close to dying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a level above him with equal gear.  It should not have been so difficult with me tanking.  At least on the 4th attempt, it showed I was of some use, as my avoidance buffs and defense buffs on him provided some use <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, the scenario repeats itself on any named anywhere.  If you are taking on orange-conned content, then its much easier to see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The good news was: neither of us could tank the lev 64 named after at that time.  We resorted to kiting tactics to kill it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by AncientElster on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:15 AM</span>

[Krelfeari]

did i leave out "that start with da"? i kinda thought that part was obvious but i dont get specific often so...also anna...u can't argue over wether i am in an argument...and u spelled ur wifes name wrong...annapider? pider? :smileytongue:

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AncientElster wrote:<BR> <DIV>Here is why bruisers are overpowered from a guardian perspective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group:</DIV> <DIV>58 guardian (me), 57 bruiser, 56 defiler, 57 inquisitor, 58 ranger, 55 coercer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>guardian and bruiser have equivlant gear on the left side (armor, ie, mitigation/avoidance stuff).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poets Palace, second floor.  Lev 63 named (the one before the eye)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tank: dead within 2 seconds, a healer next, wipe. </DIV> <DIV>Try again: dead within 7 seconds, healers next, wipe. </DIV> <DIV>Try again: wipe similiar results. </DIV> <DIV>Try again: I die within 2 seconds, bruiser rescues a healer.  Fight goes on for about 30 seconds, healer decides to divert attention a sec and rez me, wipe.</DIV> <DIV>Bruiser starting tank: win.  He didn't even come close to dying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a level above him with equal gear.  It should not have been so difficult with me tanking.  At least on the 4th attempt, it showed I was of some use, as my avoidance buffs and defense buffs on him provided some use <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, the scenario repeats itself on any named anywhere.  If you are taking on orange-conned content, then its much easier to see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The good news was: neither of us could tank the lev 64 named after at that time.  We resorted to kiting tactics to kill it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by AncientElster on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:15 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>On normal tanking situations there are going to be times that any tank class is going to out tank you. As stated a bajillion times, no tank is the best tank for ever situation. I am a 58 bruiser and my twos best friends in the game are a 60 Gaurdian and a 60 SK.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There has been times where I have tanked better then them for whatever reason growing up and other times where after I get my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handed to me one of them steps to the forefront and barely even gets hit... which generally leads to the "Bruiser cannot tank" comments that even after the combat changes still gets on my nerves (prob why they are still at it..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, Bruisers are overpowered. So are SK's. So is any given tank given the right situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if the Bruiser always out tanks you then I would have to say that you are either not playing your class to its full potential or he is one exceptional player. I think I know my class as good as or better then any other bruiser and there is no way I am going to out tank my friends in some situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats how the game is now. You are not the best tanks ALL THE TIME. Neither are we.</DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krelfearius wrote:<BR>did i leave out "that start with da"? i kinda thought that part was obvious but i dont get specific often so...also anna...u can't argue over wether i am in an argument...and u spelled ur wifes name wrong...<FONT color=#ffff00>annapider? pider?</FONT> :smileytongue: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Oops. :smileysad:</P> <P> </P>