Level 44 Bruiser - 68.9% Avoidance/1920 Mitigation!

[BlackW]

<DIV> <DIV>I resurrected my Paladin and am working on the FBSS in the Feerrot.  I am standing next to a level 44 dark elf bruiser with 259 agility and 68.9% 360 degree avoidance.   Thats just obscene.      On the other hand my own level 42, handcrafted equipped, pristine cedar kite shield, defensive stance human frontal-only avoidance is a paltry 41.5%.  And get this, his legendary armor-wearing bruiser mitigation is 1962.   My hand crafted pristine fulginate Paladin mitigation is 1620.  Ah Moorgard, think you might have overdone it just a bit with bruiser avoidance and mitigation? :smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, I dont think that brawlers are overpowered.  Of course the fighter subclasses are balanced <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Woohoo! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:30 PM</span>

[xFallenAngelx]

Ok im having a hard time believing this post.I have a 53 bruiser with 328 self buffed agility and his avoidance in defensive stance is ony 65.6% and my mitigation is only about 1900, and i have decent gear.Either this brawler was in a group with the group members buffs or your exaggerating

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xFallenAngelx wrote:<BR>Ok im having a hard time believing this post.I have a 53 bruiser with 328 self buffed agility and his avoidance in defensive stance is ony 65.6% and my mitigation is only about 1900, and i have decent gear.Either this brawler was in a group with the group members buffs or your exaggerating <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL! Yea, I made the whole thing up.  Woohoo! :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>He was in a group with a couple of mages and templar <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Rakc, 44 Dark Elf Bruiser Lucan Dlere <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[milg]

yeah he had to be with people buffing him cause im 42 and in Full Augmented T5 Rare Gear and im not packing on that much Mit im probly sitting pretty at around 1500ish Mit and for the avoid thats a real touchy thing cause if they have 98% Exp into there level they will show alot more Avoid then as if they just Dinged cause as you level your skills go up and that causes your avoid to look much higher <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> milgin wrote:<BR>yeah he had to be with people buffing him cause im 42 and in Full Augmented T5 Rare Gear and im not packing on that much Mit im probly sitting pretty at around 1500ish Mit and for the avoid thats a real touchy thing cause if they have 98% Exp into there level they will show alot more Avoid then as if they just Dinged cause as you level your skills go up and that causes your avoid to look much higher<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The issue is not how he got where he is, the issue is that he got there at all.   <BR>

[QQ-Fatman]

My level 55 bruiser with t6 treasured and t5 legendary + 2 fabled gear, using defensive stance, only has 1648 mitigation and 63.5% avoidance (328 agi.) And def stance is useless. Bruisers only have two taunts. The only way to hold aggro is to do damage. Using def stance, you will have a hard time hitting your targets. Unlike crusaders can still use spells and guardians have many taunts (at least 5 taunts.) <DIV>Also, I dont believe under same buff, your mitigation can be lower than a bruiser. There are many paladins in my guild, and they all have at least 2400 mitigation self-buffed. That is 50% more than mine.</DIV><p>Message Edited by QQFatman on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 PM</span>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR>My level 55 bruiser with t6 treasured and t5 legendary + 2 fabled gear, using defensive stance, only has 1648 mitigation and 63.5% avoidance (328 agi.) And def stance is useless. Bruisers only have two taunts. They only way to hold aggro is to do damage. Using def stance, you will have a hard time hitting your targets. Unlike crusaders can still use spells and guardians have many taunts (at least 5 taunts.) <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh sure, the fighter subclasses are balanced.   Hey ah I have some beachfront property in Colorado I will sell you cheap <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[milg]

/class envy <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> milgin wrote:<BR>/class envy<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dont you think Moorgard (a Bruiser) overdid it just a little bit?   The highest dps, highest hit points along with the highest avoidance and a very good mitigation buff.   That is why brawlers are the uber tanks at this time.</P> <P>That bruisers should have higher mitigation than plate armor even with legendary LEATHER armor is ludicrous.   Leather armor mitigation should max out before pristine handcrafted plate begins.   I dont have a problem with brawlers having high avoidance and dps.   I do have a problem with them having high avoidance, hit points, dps and mitigation.   All that the devs have done is set your subclass up for a big nerf by overbuffing you to uber levels.   Moorgard said himself that it was his intention to prove that bruisers (brawlers) could tank as well as any other fighter subclass.   I think he went a bit to far in proving it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:48 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Dont you think Moorgard (a Bruiser) overdid it just a little bit?   The highest dps, highest hit points along with the highest avoidance and a very good mitigation buff.   That is why brawlers are the uber tanks at this time.</P> <P>That bruisers should have higher mitigation than plate armor even with legendary LEATHER armor is ludicrous.   Leather armor mitigation should max out where pristine handcrafted plate begins.   I dont have a problem with brawlers having high avoidance and dps.   I do have a problem with them having high avoidance, hit points, dps and mitigation.   All that the devs have done is set your subclass up for a big nerf by overbuffing you to obscene levels.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>1. Bruisers do NOT have higher mitigation. All plate armor classes, even classes, have at least 50% more mitigation than me. The only possibility is the person is using the self-stun buff which gives him about +1000 mitigation for 30sec.<BR> <BR>2. Bruisers do NOT have the highest hp. It is the highest BASE hp, but we dont have any hp or sta buff.<BR> <BR>3. Bruisers only have two taunts. I dont have any way to hold aggro if casters start to cast AE. This makes bruisers the worst tank choice. Most of the people still want plate tanks to be MT, not brawlers.</DIV><p>Message Edited by QQFatman on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 PM</span>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> My level 55 bruiser with t6 treasured and t5 legendary + 2 fabled gear, using defensive stance, only has 1648 mitigation and 63.5% avoidance (328 agi.) And def stance is useless. Bruisers only have two taunts. The only way to hold aggro is to do damage. Using def stance, you will have a hard time hitting your targets. Unlike crusaders can still use spells and guardians have many taunts (at least 5 taunts.) <DIV>Also, I dont believe under same buff, your mitigation can be lower than a bruiser. There are many paladins in my guild, and they all have at least 2400 mitigation self-buffed. That is 50% more than mine.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by QQFatman on <SPAN class=date_text>10-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I had heard stories from other plate armor fighters on how uber bruisers could be with the right equipment and buffs.   I did not realize how uber until I saw the stats on that bruiser tonight.   Technically he was 2 levels above me.   In actual gameplay, he was more like 5 levels above me.   Hey enjoy your subclass.   I would if I were you <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[milg]

no for Real this is all about class envy and thats a Fact... Sure there are some brawlers that make plate tanks look like crap but the majority of Brawlers are and will remain to be second Fiddle to plate tanks in everything... do brawlers have the higest DPS of fighters? Yes [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right we do cause its the only way we can hold argo with our two taunts Do Brawlers have Higher Base Hp? Yes we have the highest Base HP and Lowest Power.... but plate Tanks can get more Hp then us because most plate gear has a higher + Hp bonus PS. Dont blame Brawlers cause you cant afford Ebon and we can get Augmented leather.... Perhaps when the 20 plate tanks who hate the revamp stop starting these posts this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] will [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]en Die and we can post happy things like Gnomes on horse back <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> milgin wrote:<BR>no for Real this is all about class envy and thats a Fact... Sure there are some brawlers that make plate tanks look like crap but the majority of Brawlers are and will remain to be second Fiddle to plate tanks in everything...<BR><BR><BR>do brawlers have the higest DPS of fighters? Yes [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right we do cause its the only way we can hold argo with our two taunts<BR><BR>Do Brawlers have Higher Base Hp? Yes we have the highest Base HP and Lowest Power.... but plate Tanks can get more Hp then us because most plate gear has a higher + Hp bonus<BR><BR>PS. Dont blame Brawlers cause you cant afford Ebon and we can get Augmented leather.... Perhaps when the 20 plate tanks who hate the revamp stop starting these posts this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] will [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]en Die and we can post happy things like Gnomes on horse back<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Second fiddle?  Me and that bruiser are not even playing the same archetype.   There are two types of fighters now, plate armor fighters and brawlers.   I no longer consider brawlers to be part of the fighter archetype.   Brawlers are in some uber class by themselves now.    LOL cant afford ebon?   My main character is a 51 Paladin and 51 armorer.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said, I didnt believe it until I actually saw it.   Wow did you guys get some uber buffs in the combat changes.    Your subclass has almost no real weakness now.   High dps, high hp, uber-high avoidance, awesome buffs.   Very nice bruisers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 PM</span>

[milg]

Well i can see they need to up the mit on your helm cause you dont listen.... and if you came here for a fight you got one cause im sick of plate tanks thinking we can Lay waste to Armys of mobs with the wave of our hands... You see one bruiser who makes a pally look like crap /congratz.... but next time make sure that bruiser is not in a group or useing his Mit Stun buff which is useless... And are there Brawlers with better gear then some Pallys? Sure Are there some Pallys that Make Guards look like an orc pawn? Yeah Are there some Guards that Make Brawlers look like the way plate tanks want us to look like (Crap)? Of course there are but you dont see us crying over that? Plate tanks on these forums think they are worthless after Combat revamp and sit there and Single out Bruisers because we had upgrades to make us Tanks.... Sure we got a small Mit buff aka our "free Shield" bbut they dont talk about the 30% avoid we lost Do they? Hell no <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> milgin wrote:<BR>Well i can see they need to up the mit on your helm cause you dont listen.... and if you came here for a fight you got one cause im sick of plate tanks thinking we can Lay waste to Armys of mobs with the wave of our hands... You see one bruiser who makes a pally look like crap /congratz.... but next time make sure that bruiser is not in a group or useing his Mit Stun buff which is useless...<BR><BR><BR>And are there Brawlers with better gear then some Pallys? Sure<BR><BR>Are there some Pallys that Make Guards look like an orc pawn? Yeah<BR><BR>Are there some Guards that Make Brawlers look like the way plate tanks want us to look like (Crap)? Of course there are<BR><BR>but you dont see us crying over that? Plate tanks on these forums think they are worthless after Combat revamp and sit there and Single out Bruisers because we had upgrades to make us Tanks.... Sure we got a small Mit buff aka our "free Shield" bbut they dont talk about the 30% avoid we lost Do they? Hell no<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Brawlers are by any measure the uber tanks in EQ2 at this time.   That is just the way it is.    No point in arguing about it.   You know its true, so do I.   I dont have a problem with Paladins not being the uber tank in EQ2.   We werent before the combat changes.   What i do have a problem with is the current glaring imbalance between plate armor fighters and brawlers.     Brawlers are so overpowered that it begs the question; Why do we need plate armor fighters at all? </P> <P>Answer: In eq2, you really dont need plate armor fighters.    With the right buffs and stats, brawlers can do anything they can do better.</P> <P>That is why I am retiring the character linked below.   He has become obsolete since the combat changes.  Playing this character now is depressing enough.    When I saw the stats on that bruiser, it just adds insult to injury.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 PM</span>

[milg]

<div></div><img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/895/133.jpg"> ill post this just to [Removed for Content] you off... little do you realize is that takes out heavy scarring line wich gives us an ton of mit but stuns us for as long as its active which makes this makes the skill useless cause our stun dispell cant get rid of the stun cause by the spell... which i guess makes me the most uber bruiser you have ever seen if you go just by the persona window <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> oh and if you use heavy scarring all it does give you just enough time to watch the rest of your group die then yourself cause you Cant do ANYTHING for 30seconds! <div></div><p>Message Edited by milgin on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 PM</span>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> milgin wrote:<BR> <IMG src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/895/133.jpg"><BR><BR>ill post this just to [Removed for Content] you off... little do you realize is that takes out heavy scarring line wich gives us an ton of mit but stuns us for as long as its active which makes this makes the skill useless cause our stun dispell cant get rid of the stun cause by the spell... which i guess makes me the most uber bruiser you have ever seen if you go just by the persona window <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>oh and if you use heavy scarring all it does give you just enough time to watch the rest of your group die then yourself cause you Cant do ANYTHING for 30seconds!<BR> <P>Message Edited by milgin on <SPAN class=date_text>10-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:26 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I am not mad at bruisers.   The imbalance is not your fault.   I am disappointed in the bias shown by the developement team towards brawlers, bruisers in particular.   All you have to do is look at stats like those shown above to see it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and btw, your mitigation is almost as high as the mitigation on my full legendary equipped level 51 high elf paladin.   You are only 42.   That is the definition of imbalance.</DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 PM</span>

[milg]

yeah but what you dont realize is that lasts for 30 seconds in a Full stun then the Mit is gone and if your the brawler MT and you cast that  and god forbid you lose Argo your healer is dead casters dead and the scouts all dead cause you cant taunt anymore till it fades <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> milgin wrote:<BR>yeah but what you dont realize is that lasts for 30 seconds in a Full stun then the Mit is gone and if your the brawler MT and you cast that  and god forbid you lose Argo your healer is dead casters dead and the scouts all dead cause you cant taunt anymore till it fades<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The stun is irrelevant.   It does not matter how you got there.   What matters is that your mitigation ever got that high at all.   You are wearing dead animal pelts.   I am wearing metal plate.   However your defensive capabilites are much better than mine.   Not only can you dodge better than me (which actually makes sense) but when something hits you, it does less damage.   That makes absolutely no sense.<p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:52 PM</span>

[milg]

all well.... i guess it must realy suck to be in our shadow since we are the greatest thing ever... i cant wait till LU15 when all bruisers can fly like superman and can deathtouch epic x4 mobs with our pinkie toes and lay waste to  armys of monsters with  Divine magic from our [Removed for Content].... cause the Dev Team play only bruisers  so they give us what we want always <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>  <div></div>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <BR>The stun is irrelevant.   It does not matter how you got there.   What matters is that your mitigation ever got that high at all.   You are wearing dead animal pelts.   I am wearing metal plate.   However your defensive capabilites are much better than mine.   Not only can you dodge better than me (which actually makes sense) but when something hits you, it does less damage.   That makes absolutely no sense. <P>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <SPAN class=date_text>10-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:52 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL<BR> <DIV>Ok, soe please give this guy an uber buff that gives him 100% mitigation + 100% avoidance and also kill you instantly. Im sure you'll be happy to have such an uber buff!</DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> milgin wrote:<BR>yeah but what you dont realize is that lasts for 30 seconds in a Full stun then the Mit is gone and if your the brawler MT and you cast that  and god forbid you lose Argo your healer is dead casters dead and the scouts all dead cause you cant taunt anymore till it fades<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Dont take my word for it, read it for yourself.   Moorgard said what he was going to do for brawlers/bruisers and proceeded to do exactly that.</P> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=56668&query.id=0#M56668" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=56668&query.id=0#M56668</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The key quote here is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I run into this problem as a bruiser sometimes, as some stubborn souls tend to doubt that we can tank well in a group. It's my personal mission to do away with this flawed perception. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0>"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 PM</span>

[NighthawkX]

<P>Maybe you would like to post your paladins magic resistances, heck every time we see a paladin record how much drastically higher his resistances are and how he so much better tank at taking the big hit from those spells.  Its obvious that Paladins are way overpowered and should be nerfed its just a matter of time.</P> <P>Yes I am being rediculous but if others are going to be might as well do the same.  Your comparing someone in a group being buffed up using his timered buffs and probably defensive stance against someone is less quality atire, likely not being buffed up by others as much, and were you in a stance or use any of your extra buffs.</P>

[milg]

<div></div>oh but we are not even suposed to reach a higher Mit even with our timed buffs cause the great and all mighty plate tanks say so.... i wish someone have a real count of how many plate Tanks hate the revamp cause every plate tank i know in game loves it... a handful of plate tanks on the forums do nothing but Brawler Bash. I wish they would just give it a rest for two minutes they would Realize this forums have some fun stuff on them and here ill even post one <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/852/608.jpg"> And Dont forget this is only a GAME.... Stop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about whos class it better and just have Fun.... Some of the best times i have had where spent in the MMO world Toe to toe Raiding with some of the best people i have ever met and the day  I left EQ1 for SWG was a Sad day but i made more friends there and when i hung up my blaster in SWG i came to EQ2 and Saw some of the old Faces and wonderful people i started my MMO Life with and many more people who i will see many years down the road in other games... So all im saying is just have Fun Cause without Fun then its not a Game anymore <div></div><p>Message Edited by milgin on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 AM</span>

[Turb]

So what's the news here? A group-buffed bruiser, probably with short-term self-buffs up, beats an unbuffed Pally?So what? What's the Pally when buffed? And with Pally's, the wards and heals factor into the defense, and they generate hate, which is a bruiser's weak point.

[milg]

lol pretty much.... just a pally comeing to fight and brawler bash <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Turb0T wrote:<BR>So what's the news here? A group-buffed bruiser, probably with short-term self-buffs up, beats an unbuffed Pally?<BR><BR>So what? What's the Pally when buffed? <BR><BR>And with Pally's, the wards and heals factor into the defense, and they generate hate, which is a bruiser's weak point.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wrong again.  Paladin had monk and gaurdian buffs.   Mitigation and avoidance still very weak <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> milgin wrote:<BR>lol pretty much.... just a pally comeing to fight and brawler bash <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No fight here.  I surrender.   Bruisers win, hands down, no contest :smileysad:

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NighthawkX wrote:<BR> <P>Maybe you would like to post your paladins magic resistances, heck every time we see a paladin record how much drastically higher his resistances are and how he so much better tank at taking the big hit from those spells.  Its obvious that Paladins are way overpowered and should be nerfed its just a matter of time.</P> <P>Yes I am being rediculous but if others are going to be might as well do the same.  Your comparing someone in a group being buffed up using his timered buffs and probably defensive stance against someone is less quality atire, likely not being buffed up by others as much, and were you in a stance or use any of your extra buffs.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My level 16 predator out-damages my level 42 Paladin.   My heals are severely borked so I can play a weak support role at best.   I was hoping my resists would be higher, I was very disappointed.    Numbers dont really matter.   What matters is gameplay and in gameplay there is no comparison between my 42 Paladin and any brawler within 2 to 5 levels of him.    As I said, there are plate armor fighters and there are brawlers.   They should not even be considered to be in the same archetype any longer as there is really no comparison between them.   Brawlers at the same level as me are effectively 2-5 levels higher than I am.</P> <P>I was in my defensive stance (more like my stand there and get beat on stance), I had monk and gaurdian buffs on me which should have helped but did not to any sigificant degree.   I will level up my character to 44 so that I can rez and then just craft with him.   Congratulations brawlers/bruisers.   From what I have seen in game, in actual gameplay, you are in fact the uber tanks in EQ2.    The thing is, I could live with your uberness if the devs would just throw us a bone or two but seeing a guy wearing leather having 300+ more mitigation and 40+% more avoidance in the same tier as me is just too much <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Owa]

<FONT size=2>Hey, remember this?</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Blackweb wrote:</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oi!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm in Zek right now (31 monk, best equipment for my level, attuned, stats raised etc) and I thought I was soloing the single orcs (30-31) pretty well. Then I see a <STRONG>27 </STRONG>Pally with just AQ gear and Starfall slaying the same mobs better than me. Hardly getting hit, dealing out some pretty respectable DPS and healing himself if and when he did get clobbered  - all with almost no downtime. What's that about? And why does he avoid hits better than me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps. This my 2nd level 31 Tank so I know how to play the game reasonably well by now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>pps My STR is 95 AGI is 94</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The pally's is 81 and 59</DIV> <P>Message Edited by annaspider on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>02-19-2005</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:59 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>Since when do Paladins not get hit?  Since when can Paladins out-dps a Monk?  If he was not getting hit, why did he need to heal himself? Bah!</P> <P>The Starfall is a Tier 3 weapon.  It goes bye-bye after lvl 30.</P> <P></P> <DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=131065109" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Blackweb, Human Paladin - Lucan Dlere Roleplay Server</FONT></A><SPAN></SPAN><BR> <DIV><A href="http://orderofmarr.eqverquest2guilds.com/" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Order of Marr</FONT></A><SPAN></SPAN><BR> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=8&message.id=213" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Crusader/Paladin Guide - In Progress</FONT></A><SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=2>Those whiney 'who's the uberest'  posts by people that don't really know what the hell they're on about can get irritating can't they? Still, at least I managed to wean myself off posting cack like that back in February.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>BlackWeb wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div> <div>I resurrected my Paladin and am working on the FBSS in the Feerrot.  I am standing next to a level 44 dark elf bruiser with 259 agility and 68.9% 360 degree avoidance.   Thats just obscene.      On the other hand my own level 42, handcrafted equipped, pristine cedar kite shield, defensive stance human frontal-only avoidance is a paltry 41.5%.  And get this, his legendary armor-wearing bruiser mitigation is 1962.   My hand crafted pristine fulginate Paladin mitigation is 1620.  Ah Moorgard, think you might have overdone it just a bit with bruiser avoidance and mitigation? :smileysurprised:</div> <div> </div> <div>No, I dont think that brawlers are overpowered.  Of course the fighter subclasses are balanced <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>Woohoo! :smileyvery-happy:</div></div><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class="date_text">10-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:30 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>/yawnA bruiser in T5 fabled/Legendary rare crafted armor isn't going to reach 1920 points of mitigation without outside buffs/emergency mit boosters, much less someone who is only lvl 44, nor is he going to reach close to 70% avoidance without having outside buffs affecting the Defense or Parry skills. I wish people like you would get a clue before mouthing off about stuff you have absolutely no understanding about.Obviously you're doing nothing but trolling, so kindly sod off back to whichever pit you spawned from, k thx bye ~</span><div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <FONT size=2>Hey, remember this?</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Blackweb wrote:</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oi!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm in Zek right now (31 monk, best equipment for my level, attuned, stats raised etc) and I thought I was soloing the single orcs (30-31) pretty well. Then I see a <STRONG>27 </STRONG>Pally with just AQ gear and Starfall slaying the same mobs better than me. Hardly getting hit, dealing out some pretty respectable DPS and healing himself if and when he did get clobbered  - all with almost no downtime. What's that about? And why does he avoid hits better than me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps. This my 2nd level 31 Tank so I know how to play the game reasonably well by now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>pps My STR is 95 AGI is 94</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The pally's is 81 and 59</DIV> <P>Message Edited by annaspider on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>02-19-2005</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:59 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>Since when do Paladins not get hit?  Since when can Paladins out-dps a Monk?  If he was not getting hit, why did he need to heal himself? Bah!</P> <P>The Starfall is a Tier 3 weapon.  It goes bye-bye after lvl 30.</P> <P></P> <DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=131065109" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Blackweb, Human Paladin - Lucan Dlere Roleplay Server</FONT></A><SPAN></SPAN><BR> <DIV><A href="http://orderofmarr.eqverquest2guilds.com/" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Order of Marr</FONT></A><SPAN></SPAN><BR> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=8&message.id=213" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Crusader/Paladin Guide - In Progress</FONT></A><SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=2>Those whiney 'who's the uberest'  posts by people that don't really know what the hell they're on about can get irritating can't they? Still, at least I managed to wean myself off posting cack like that back in February.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What does that have to do with anythng?   That is pre-combat changes.    I dont have a problem with a brawler having higher avoidance with me.</P> <P>Most of you seem uninformed about armor since the combat changes (that is because armor really doesnt matter for brawlers now).    Plate armor fighters have been made much more dependent upon our armor for protection.   Not only that but our armor has actually in many ways become a disadvantage since the combat changes.   Equipping our plate armor actually lowers our avoidance by about 8% (approximately 1% per piece of armor).    It is actually easier for many plate armor wearers to solo without their armor depending on the type of mob they are fighting.   Against many raid mobs and mobs using certain types of attacks our mitigation does not work at all.   That is why I have seen a level 60 Paladin go down just as fast as a level 51 Paladin in a raid against the same raid mob.   The raid mob did so much damage that it effectively ignored his mitigation.   At 40% avoidance we must mitigate 60% or more of the blows we take.   Our avoidance is frontal only.   We must mitigate all blows from behind.   All armor mitigation now depends only on armor type and is capped for each tier (does not go up within the tier).</P> <P>Here is what the fighter subclass rankings were supposed (as stated by moorgard) to be in the combat changes.   Dps from top to bottom, tanking ability from bottom to top:</P> <P>1. Bruiser/Monk</P> <P>2. Berzerker/Shadowknight</P> <P>3. Paladin/Gaurdian</P> <P>The actual rankings are:</P> <P>1.  Monk/Bruiser</P> <P>2. Berzker/Shadowknight</P> <P>3. Gaurdian/Paladin/Monk/Bruiser</P> <P>I dont have a problem with brawlers having the highest avoidance.  In theory they should need it to survive.  They should also have the lowest mitigation.   That is not the case.   Brawlers should NEVER have higher unbuffed mitigation than a plate armor fighter wearing any plate armor appropriate for his tier under any circumstances regardless of the quality of the armor handcrafted/legendary etc.   Legendary leather armor should have less mitigation than handcrafted plate armor.   It should not be possible to buff brawler mitigation to a point where it is higher than unbuffed legendary plate armor under any circumstances.   I dont have a problem with brawlers having higher hit points than plate fighters.   In theory they should need it.   It should not be possible for brawler avoidance to exceed 65% under any circumstances, it should be capped at 65%.    </P> <P>One of the stated goals (by Galliente in his producers letter) was to remove the invincible tank from EQ2.   They removed invincible plate tanks and replaced them with invincible pajama tanks.    A level 44 bruiser with 70% avoidance and 1962 mitigation along with all of his other bruiser benefits including dps is effectively invincible within tier5 against single heroic (including named) mobs near his level and even some raid mobs.   Not all pajama tanks are invincible but with the right gear and CA upgrades, they effectively can be against any heroic mob near their level including named. </P> <P>In summary:</P> <P>1.  If brawlers have the highest avoidance, hit points and dps, they should have the lowest mitigation, no exceptions, including buffs.   Unbuffed legendary leather armor mitigation should NEVER be higher than handcrafted plate armor mitigation regardless of the type of the leather armor within the same tier.   Buffed legendary/fabled leather armor mitigation should never exceed unbuffed legendary plate armor mitigation including buffs within the same tier.</P> <P>2.  Brawler avoidance should be capped, it should never exceed 65% regardless of stat stacking and buffs.   70% avoidance on a brawler moves us back towards the invincible tank before the combat changes.</P> <P>3. Brawlers should have the lowest resists of all of the fighter subclasses, including buffs.   Their avoidance gives them built in melee resistance.</P> <P>Avoidance, hit points and dps should be brawler strengths.   It should not be possible to buff brawler avoidance to the point where they become invincible against any heroic mob near their level.   Mitigation and resists should be brawler weaknesses. </P><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:01 AM</span>

[Gora]

<DIV>Trollbait.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do an even comparison and you may have a point.  This anecdotal example is useless.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's been stated over and over mitigation and avoidance are not the be-all, end-all numbers for tanking, it covers some base generalities, but deciding one class is overpowered and another class sucks based on those 2 numbers only is pointless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Find some facts, post actual meaningful numbers, don't distort them with your opinion, then you might have something worth listening to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Argest</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <FONT size=2>Hey, remember this?</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Blackweb wrote:</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oi!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm in Zek right now (31 monk, best equipment for my level, attuned, stats raised etc) and I thought I was soloing the single orcs (30-31) pretty well. Then I see a <STRONG>27 </STRONG>Pally with just AQ gear and Starfall slaying the same mobs better than me. Hardly getting hit, dealing out some pretty respectable DPS and healing himself if and when he did get clobbered  - all with almost no downtime. What's that about? And why does he avoid hits better than me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps. This my 2nd level 31 Tank so I know how to play the game reasonably well by now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>pps My STR is 95 AGI is 94</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The pally's is 81 and 59</DIV> <P>Message Edited by annaspider on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>02-19-2005</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:59 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>Since when do Paladins not get hit?  Since when can Paladins out-dps a Monk?  If he was not getting hit, why did he need to heal himself? Bah!</P> <P>The Starfall is a Tier 3 weapon.  It goes bye-bye after lvl 30.</P> <P></P> <DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=131065109" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Blackweb, Human Paladin - Lucan Dlere Roleplay Server</FONT></A><SPAN></SPAN><BR> <DIV><A href="http://orderofmarr.eqverquest2guilds.com/" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Order of Marr</FONT></A><SPAN></SPAN><BR> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=8&message.id=213" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Crusader/Paladin Guide - In Progress</FONT></A><SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=2>Those whiney 'who's the uberest'  posts by people that don't really know what the hell they're on about can get irritating can't they? Still, at least I managed to wean myself off posting cack like that back in February.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What does that have to do with anythng?   That is pre-combat changes.    I dont have a problem with a brawler having higher avoidance with me.</P> <P>Most of you seem uninformed about armor since the combat changes (that is because armor really doesnt matter for brawlers now).    Plate armor fighters have been made much more dependent upon our armor for protection.   Not only that but our armor has actually in many ways become a disadvantage since the combat changes.   Equipping our plate armor actually lowers our avoidance by about 8% (approximately 1% per piece of armor).    It is actually easier for many plate armor wearers to solo without their armor depending on the type of mob they are fighting.   Against many raid mobs and mobs using certain types of attacks our mitigation does not work at all.   That is why I have seen a level 60 Paladin go down just as fast as a level 51 Paladin in a raid against the same raid mob.   The raid mob did so much damage that it effectively ignored his mitigation.   At 40% avoidance we must mitigate 60% or more of the blows we take.   Our avoidance is frontal only.   We must mitigate all blows from behind.   All armor mitigation now depends only on armor type and is capped for each tier (does not go up within the tier).</P> <P>Here is what the fighter subclass rankings were supposed (as stated by moorgard) to be in the combat changes.   Dps from top to bottom, tanking ability from bottom to top:</P> <P>1. Bruiser/Monk</P> <P>2. Berzerker/Shadowknight</P> <P>3. Paladin/Gaurdian</P> <P>The actual rankings are:</P> <P>1.  Monk/Bruiser</P> <P>2. Berzker/Shadowknight</P> <P>3. Gaurdian/Paladin/Monk/Bruiser</P> <P>I dont have a problem with brawlers having the highest avoidance.  In theory they should need it to survive.  They should also have the lowest mitigation.   That is not the case.   Brawlers should NEVER have higher unbuffed mitigation than a plate armor fighter wearing any plate armor appropriate for his tier under any circumstances regardless of the quality of the armor handcrafted/legendary etc.   Legendary leather armor should have less mitigation than handcrafted plate armor.   It should not be possible to buff brawler mitigation to a point where it is higher than unbuffed legendary plate armor under any circumstances.   I dont have a problem with brawlers having higher hit points than plate fighters.   In theory they should need it.   It should not be possible for brawler avoidance to exceed 65% under any circumstances, it should be capped at 65%.    </P> <P>One of the stated goals (by Galliente in his producers letter) was to remove the invincible tank from EQ2.   They removed invincible plate tanks and replaced them with invincible pajama tanks.    A level 44 bruiser with 70% avoidance and 1962 mitigation along with all of his other bruiser benefits including dps is effectively invincible within tier5 against single heroic (including named) mobs near his level and even some raid mobs.   Not all pajama tanks are invincible but with the right gear and CA upgrades, they effectively can be against any heroic mob near their level including named. </P> <P>In summary:</P> <P>1.  If brawlers have the highest avoidance, hit points and dps, they should have the lowest mitigation, no exceptions, including buffs.   Unbuffed legendary leather armor mitigation should NEVER be higher than handcrafted plate armor mitigation regardless of the type of the leather armor within the same tier.   Buffed legendary/fabled leather armor mitigation should never exceed unbuffed legendary plate armor mitigation including buffs within the same tier.</P> <P>2.  Brawler avoidance should be capped, it should never exceed 65% regardless of stat stacking and buffs.   70% avoidance on a brawler moves us back towards the invincible tank before the combat changes.</P> <P>3. Brawlers should have the lowest resists of all of the fighter subclasses, including buffs.   Their avoidance gives them built in melee resistance.</P> <P>Avoidance, hit points and dps should be brawler strengths.   It should not be possible to buff brawler avoidance to the point where they become invincible against any heroic mob near their level.   Mitigation and resists should be brawler weaknesses. </P> <P>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <SPAN class=date_text>10-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:01 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This has got to be the most uninformed post I have ever read on the bruiser forums (and there have been many). I was going to go through the post and pick it apart, but I really don't think its worth my time.</P> <P>Be that as it may, you have now argued your point and are repeating yourself over and over again. We get it! </P> <P>*Bruisers are #1 tanks and Pally's are way way gimped. </P> <P>*Your quiting the game cause your useless. </P> <P>Did I get everything???</P> <P>Now please go away cause your really not adding anything cunstrustive.</P> <P>NOTE: If you would like to add something constructive. Find a bruiser around your level. Have both of you only self buffed in your normal buffs. Have similar gear and post a screenshot camparing the two. Stop making up numbers that in no way have anything to do with anything period.<BR></P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote: <P>This has got to be the most uninformed post I have ever read on the bruiser forums (and there have been many). I was going to go through the post and pick it apart, but I really don't think its worth my time.</P> <P>Be that as it may, you have now argued your point and are repeating yourself over and over again. We get it! </P> <P>*Bruisers are #1 tanks and Pally's are way way gimped. </P> <P>*Your quiting the game cause your useless. </P> <P>Did I get everything???</P> <P>Now please go away cause your really not adding anything cunstrustive.</P> <P>NOTE: If you would like to add something constructive. Find a bruiser around your level. Have both of you only self buffed in your normal buffs. Have similar gear and post a screenshot camparing the two. Stop making up numbers that in no way have anything to do with anything period.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I did make a constructive proposal, you ignored it and resorted to personal attacks.   My proposal would preserve the brawler position as the premier tank against melee mobs.    So what are you saying, personal attacks aside?   I would like direct answers please:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Should it be possible for brawler avoidance to be as high as 70%, and do you have a problem with your avoidance being capped at 65%? YES/NO, please explain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Should it be possible for self-buffed brawler mitigation to exceed unbuffed legendary plate armor mitigation within the same tier? YES/NO, please explain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Should it be possible for brawler resists to be higher than plate armor fighter resists when both are at maximum self buffs and wearing legendary gear?  YES/NO, please explain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont see why a brawler would have a problem with my proposal above.   You would have the highest dps, avoidance and hit points of the fighter subclasses.    You would also have the lowest mitigation and resists which is as it should be, after all you are wearing LEATHER armor.   I would like a serious reply, no more personal attacks please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:40 AM</span>

[DejaaVous]

<P>You sir, are a chucklehead.</P> <P> </P> <P>Re-roll a brawler and stop the whining.</P>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>So what are you saying, personal attacks aside?   I would like direct answers please:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Should it be possible for brawler avoidance to be as high as 70%, and do you have a problem with your avoidance being capped at 65%? YES/NO, please explain. <FONT color=#ff0000>YES, it should be possible for a brawler to have his mitigation at 70%..and actually 80% (where it is capped now). We are avoidance tanks. Also, I have (a 55 bruiser with all legendary/fabled gear) only gotten my avoidance above 70% being raid buffed in defensive stance. I have tried tanking many tihngs that my equally outfitted Gaurdian and SK friends that I group with all the time have tanked and in certain situations I do outshine them. Generally, any single mob white con or lower. Anything higher con eats right through my avoidance and both their mitigations are higher, and anything in a group I do not have as good as taunts to hold agro. Also, the SK tanks caster mobs better as his Wisdom in higher then me our the Gaurdians. Tanking is a lot more situational now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Should it be possible for self-buffed brawler mitigation to exceed unbuffed legendary plate armor mitigation within the same tier? YES/NO, please explain. <FONT color=#ff0000>If you asking if a brawler that is using his 30 second increase to mitigation buff that makes him unable to move or attack (an increase of 1200 mitigation mind you) and using our 3 minute mitigation buff that drains our health over 100 every 6 seconds (another 700+ mitigation) should have the ability to get his mitigation to that of a plate wearer that is sitting there with no buffs on what-so-ever, then I say hell yes! Though I know of no bruiser that uses those skills on a regular basis. Our attacks hold agro.. our taunts cannot do it alone. We make ourselves unable to attack just to raise our mitigation, then it matters little, cause the mob stops hitting us and moves on to wipe the group while we stand there with our uber plate mitigation.. yay /sarcasm. In all reality, you will never see a bruiser tanking that has higher mitigation then that of a plate wearing tank.. EVER.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Should it be possible for brawler resists to be higher than plate armor fighter resists when both are at maximum self buffs and wearing legendary gear?  YES/NO, please explain.<FONT color=#ff0000> Depends. More then Gaurdians.. sure its possible, we both have low Wisdom.. more then pally's or SK's? Never happen. SK's and Pally's have higher wisdom and hence, higher resists. Though we may have more poison resists, for the simple fact Sony has now given each tank subclass the ability to raise a certain resist up over 1k when in defensive stance. Think Pally's is Devine?? </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont see why a brawler would have a problem with my proposal above.   You would have the highest dps, avoidance and hit points of the fighter subclasses.    You would also have the lowest mitigation and resists which is as it should be, after all you are wearing LEATHER armor.   I would like a serious reply, no more personal attacks please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>We do not have a problem with your what you are saying. The problem is you seem to be misinformed and decided to come post instead of doing your homework. Coming in here saying bruisers are now the end all of tanking just shows how uninformed you really are. Read above to figure out why. Yes, bruisers can now tank, and can out tank all others in certain situations.. but the same can now be send about every tank subclass. In certain fights the Gaurdian in our guild bows out to let the SK tank when it is needed and me when it is needed. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Hope this sheds some light on the subject. If there is anything that you still do not understand, I would be more then happy to educate you in any way possible.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[JonnyBlaaze]

<DIV>---- Wrong again.  Paladin had monk and gaurdian buffs.   Mitigation and avoidance still very weak <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" width=16 border=0> -----</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would that matter to you? doesnt your class relay on absorbing damage, not avoiding it like we do?</DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DejaaVous wrote:<BR> <P>You sir, are a chucklehead.</P> <P>Re-roll a brawler and stop the whining.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Where is Gaige-Mikel when you need him?   If we cant find a bruiser who can answer my questions, maybe we can get a Monk.   We dont always agree but at least he can give intelligent and well informed responses to my questions.   The stats I saw on that bruiser were a shock to me, especially when compared to my 42 Paladin and the 47 gaurdian I was grouped with.   I thought that avoidance had been capped.  I did not think that a brawler could have 68.9% avoidance.  I did not think that brawlers could have mitigation that was 300+ higher than a decently equipped plate armor fighter of the same tier.    I was not aware that was possible in the combat changes.   Please answer my questions above, regardless of whether we agree are not.    No personal attacks please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ShinmaRyche]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You seem to be on a witch hunt, and we should leave you to it. You keep repeating "Moorgard said" like is a freaking mantra.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You are comparing leather and metal and automatically assuming metal should be better. One thing you are forgetting this is a fantasy game, and armor can be magically enhanced. It is possible that a magic leather headband, can "be better than" a metal hand crafted helm. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Also "</FONT><FONT color=#f0e1de>The issue is not how he got where he is, the issue is that he got there at all." </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>whenever anyone brings up the fact that he was buffed by "some other mystery person he was grouped with." I think it odd that you remember for a "fact" this magical bruisers stats, but not his name, nor who he was buffed by, or with what buffs. One bruiser youve seen with these stats, yet you assume all bruisers are the same way. Nice.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Equipment makes up a huge part of characters. Deal with it. Not everyone is "uber". Also, numbers on a persona page are just that, numbers. How many brusiers on this board with 70% feign death try an fail 3-4-5-6 times in a row? All of us. How many bruisers on this board with 60%+ avoidance get pounded routinely by even con? All of us. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You think its "so easy" to play a bruiser? Do it. Your OPINION will change.</FONT></DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JonnyBlaaze wrote:<BR> <DIV>---- Wrong again.  Paladin had monk and gaurdian buffs.   Mitigation and avoidance still very weak <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" width=16 border=0> -----</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would that matter to you? doesnt your class relay on absorbing damage, not avoiding it like we do?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly my point.   The 44 bruiser had higher mitigation than me and the 47 gaurdian I was grouped with.   He was a superior tank in every way according to his stats.

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Hope this sheds some light on the subject. If there is anything that you still do not understand, I would be more then happy to educate you in any way possible.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you for your response.   Brawler avoidance is capped at 80%?  If what you say is true and I have no reason to believe it is not,  why would anyone want to have a plate armor fighter tank a tough mob rather than a brawler except against a very strong caster mob?   What is the point of having plate armor fighters in the game other than that we look good in vangaurd armor (especially sitting on a horse <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)?</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 AM</span>

[ShinmaRyche]

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Bruisers are a poor tanking choice against a group of mobs. If the casters pull agro by over-nuking, its very difficult to get enough agro back to save the caster. We are avoidance tanks and superior (if you want to call it that) against a single mob. </FONT></DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ShinmaRyche wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Bruisers are a poor tanking choice against a group of mobs. If the casters pull agro by over-nuking, its very difficult to get enough agro back to save the caster. We are avoidance tanks and superior (if you want to call it that) against a single mob. </FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Poor choice for groups?   Your avoidance is 360 degrees.   I have a legendary equipped and stronger level 51 high elf paladin alt.   The last time I was on lavastorm, he got owned by a level 46 heroic^^^ solo mob when using the defensive stance.   I had a similarly equipped level 51 monk in my guild tank the same mobs and stronger mobs including groups.   The monk was able to easily solo the same mob and with healing support in a group, he was able to easily tank any number of heroic^^^ (including melee, caster and named) mobs including multiple groups of mobs while needing only minimal healing support.   I was able to tank the same mobs but the healer had to work much harder.   I have to admit, he was a much stronger tank against almost any type of heroic mob.  I have not seen any significant weakness in brawler tanking ability except against very strong raid mobs where we are all struggling.   He said himself that he thought he was overpowered and that what the devs had done to his subclass was "too much".   He is also the best harvester in the guild.  He can go anywhere in the sinking sands with his invisibility and feign death abilites, harvest almost anywhere he wants and rarely die.</P> <P>Playing my level 42 below average Paladin gives me a very different perspective on the combat changes from playing my above average level 51 high elf Paladin.   It is like playing 2 different games.    I had heard stores from a gaurdian who quit EQ2 (because of the combat changes) about the strength of bruisers in relation to plate tanks.   The things she told me never really sunk in until I saw it myself in game.   She is now playing that other MMORPG.   I think that the fighter subclasses needed balancing but I also think the devs went too far with brawlers.   I am sure brawlers would disagree.   Try playing a plate tank the same level as your brawler if you get a chance, you will see what I mean.</P>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Folks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I noticed this thread going towards a flame thread. Lets get this thread back on track since there are some great things being discussed here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>**NOTICED THE FIRST POST STARTED AS FLAME BAIT SO THREAD SHUT DOWN**</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>