What is your mit and avoidance?

[Thanous]

I'm trying to do some Montie Carlo tests on different fighter's Mit/Avoidance to get an idea of where everyone is at.  (Kind of like the nice tables put together for the clerics during the revamp to show their healing for each profession) I would greatly appriciate if I could get some mit and avoidance <b>percentages</b> from you folks, as well as your level. Thanks in advance! <div></div>

[Thanous]

Here's a link to take a look at what I'm doing if you're worried about this being some sort of witch hunt.  I'm just trying to understand the numbers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=20073" target=_blank>Link</a> <div></div>

[kildarn]

Do you want self buffed defensive?  Offensive?  Inbetween?  Ring buffs?  Raw with no buffs?  There are a lot of different variables when it comes to mitigation and avoidance.  For instance, bruisers have a skill that costs hps per tick but gives an enormous amount of mitigation.  Do you want numbers with or without that?

[Parker01]

<P>Looks like a witch hunt to me.  </P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=20136" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=20136</A></P>

[Thanous]

Actually Parker, before you have a kneejerk reaction to what I'm doing, try reading more of what I'm doing.  I just did a monk's stats and it looks very much on par with Guardians in terms of mean behavior while in defensive stance.  While in their (monk's) offensive stance, I've seen some Guardians that bad too on defense.  I'm not cooking the numbers, but trying to get it away from "Avoidance is better!!!" type arguements that does no one any good. So far my main comment is that buffs are so important it is almost sick from the numbers provided to me so far. <div></div>

[Parker01]

Is the outcome to report the data to the dev team and get Monks and Bruisers nerfed?  Your data so far is just adding fuel to the Guardian's arguments.

[Thanous]

No, actually so far I'd say that they are doing exactly what the devs say they are.  Monks get hit less, but get hit much harder.  In terms of mean behavior, so far they look quite close (I can't say more then that right now as the sample size isn't big enough).  If anything, I'd say with the 30 second buffs thrown in there, Guardians are great tanks.  The short term buffs provide much better protection.  I do not have any simular data for monks as of yet though, and I don't know if they have any defensive buffs besides their stance. I'm not trying to get anyone nerfed.  I'm trying to, as I said, stop the whineing and actually get people looking at what might actually be going on.  I don't understand how my data is adding fuel to the Guardian's arguements.  The monks I've looked at were on par with Guardians, which the Devs have said was the goal.  If the Guardian community wants to try and debate that point, they are free to, but that is not my purpose. I'm hoping that everyone comes out with about the same range against melee defense, but maybe arrives at those places via different ways.  If I don't get any more help from the Brawler community, I'll move on to the Crusaders and see what data they will provide and see how their numbers look too. As for talking to the Devs, I have had a few PM's with Moorgard and asked him for any feedback he might have (and most of it was standard dev disclaimers that there's more to it then two numbers which I do agree with) and also to ask him not to post here so that I could just keep it a exercise in understanding the class I play and other classes.  I'd about put money down that SOE did this kind of analysis at some point and we are all about equal in this analysis. <div></div>

[Thanous]

Also, it has been useful for a couple people in the guardian thread to see how different buffs and stances help their defensive stats.  The same went for a monk which posted stats for offensive and defensive stances (I wouldn't want to get agro in their offensive stance) <div></div>

[NoEsca]

<DIV>Level 42, Legendary armor, mixed handcrafted/treasured/legendary jewelry. All figures are when fully self-buffed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defensive stance (with ring buffs) :</DIV> <DIV> Mitigation: 1470 (35.0%)</DIV> <DIV> Avoidance: 63.5%</DIV> <DIV> Attack: 774</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Offensive stance (with ring buffs) :</DIV> <DIV> Mitigation: 1290 (30.7%)</DIV> <DIV> Avoidance: 54.0%</DIV> <DIV> Attack: 818</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stanceless (with ring buffs) :</DIV> <DIV> Mitigation: 1290 (30.7%)</DIV> <DIV> Avoidance: 57.2%</DIV> <DIV> Attack: 788</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>30 second buffs:</DIV> <DIV> +576 (13.7%) Mitigation / -2% Health every 6 seconds</DIV> <DIV> +960 (22.9%) Mitigation / Stunned for duration</DIV> <p>Message Edited by NoEscape on <span class=date_text>09-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

[Thanous]

<span><blockquote><hr>NoEscape wrote:<div></div> <div>Level 42, Legendary armor, mixed handcrafted/treasured/legendary jewelry. All figures are when fully self-buffed.</div> <div> </div> <div>Defensive stance (with ring buffs) :</div> <div> Mitigation: 1470 (35.0%)</div> <div> Avoidance: 63.5%</div> <div> Attack: 774</div> <div> </div> <div>Offensive stance (with ring buffs) :</div> <div> Mitigation: 1290 (30.7%)</div> <div> Avoidance: 54.0%</div> <div> Attack: 818</div> <div> </div> <div>Stanceless (with ring buffs) :</div> <div> Mitigation: 1290 (30.7%)</div> <div> Avoidance: 57.2%</div> <div> Attack: 788</div> <div> </div> <div>30 second buffs:</div> <div> +576 (13.7%) Mitigation / -2% Health every 6 seconds</div> <div> +960 (22.9%) Mitigation / Stunned for duration</div> <div></div><p>Message Edited by NoEscape on <span class="date_text">09-30-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:02 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Defense stance Mean Taken    23.57777011        Percentile    Taken 0.05    0 5    0 10    0 15    0 20    0 25    0 30    0 35    0 40    0 45    0 50    0 55    0 60    0 65    46.55486412 70    55.37855788 75    59.99009855 80    63.54371258 85    66.95177688 90    70.4390231 95    75.40400932 99.5    86.95589797 Damage Taken.... Mean Taken    64.99715576        Percentile    Taken 0.05    30.27746648 5    48.96088516 10    52.50429461 15    54.87255809 20    56.79186185 25    58.42028608 30    59.8705076 35    61.24247512 40    62.52878873 45    63.77073283 50    64.99086977 55    66.22490151 60    67.46604796 65    68.75017693 70    70.10272996 75    71.56873911 80    73.20531193 85    75.10396635 90    77.46604522 95    81.01269231 99.5    90.19211715 Offensive Stance... Mean Taken    31.91320818        Percentile    Taken 0.05    0 5    0 10    0 15    0 20    0 25    0 30    0 35    0 40    0 45    0 50    0 55    48.10666764 60    57.49928165 65    62.0149354 70    65.50167619 75    68.42008769 80    71.27498324 85    73.95009513 90    77.41639565 95    82.07609446 99.5    93.6746525 Damage Taken... Mean Taken    69.28427062        Percentile    Taken 0.05    35.45442994 5    52.15828301 10    55.95697981 15    58.50139346 20    60.53637889 25    62.26715691 30    63.8169903 35    65.28092094 40    66.64595474 45    67.97515736 50    69.28395871 55    70.5874148 60    71.9139774 65    73.28964553 70    74.73297183 75    76.29073345 80    78.03170745 85    80.03977652 90    82.58488489 95    86.37563845 99.5    95.79225881 No Stance... Mean Taken    29.73484813        Percentile    Taken 0.05    0 5    0 10    0 15    0 20    0 25    0 30    0 35    0 40    0 45    0 50    0 55    0 60    53.52372114 65    59.89128444 70    64.01264175 75    67.53007234 80    70.28450729 85    73.34569217 90    76.79427341 95    81.82909574 99.5    92.87293032 Damage taken... Mean Taken    69.28614732        Percentile    Taken 0.05    36.50423808 5    52.1898084 10    55.94567104 15    58.50902485 20    60.53855406 25    62.26829673 30    63.82216646 35    65.28098895 40    66.65267879 45    67.97796795 50    69.28543805 55    70.59064325 60    71.91697425 65    73.28863746 70    74.72997901 75    76.29361413 80    78.02046995 85    80.05397294 90    82.60363106 95    86.37961795 99.5    95.87798127 </span><div></div>

[Moralpanic]

<span><blockquote><hr>Parker01 wrote:Is the outcome to report the data to the dev team and get Monks and Bruisers nerfed?  Your data so far is just adding fuel to the Guardian's arguments. <div></div><hr></blockquote> LOL is it because you all know the truths of our complaints, and that's why you're all so hesistant to post your numbers?</span><div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Having looked at the stats flying around over on the other post, it looks like we aren't any better.. if anything, we are worse. A guardian with a shield in defensive stance and all his buffs up will have more hitpoints, more power, and take overall less damage.</P> <P>Why are they complaining about Bruisers?</P>

[ChrisRay]

<DIV>Because they dont do damage and they claim to have low utility.</DIV>

[Vorham]

<P>I think they have a valid claim about their dps and utility now that tanking has been "normalized"... but seriously I'm getting tired of their constant exaggerations and half-truths about our capabilities.  Brawlers seem to be the target of their anger for some reason, above all the other fighters.  I can understand their anger at the changes but they need to stop with the outraged, incorrect, and angry class-envy posts if they want the devs to take what they say seriously. </P> <P>My mit is ~1300 and my avoid is 63.4 in def stance.. mix of legendary and treasured aside from fabled weap</P>

[AsheBail]

<img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/882/664.jpg"> Here are mine.  I think where in the level makes a small difference too. <div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Because they dont do damage and they claim to have low utility.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well this is how I look at it:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a fighter class that is not MT, this is what I provide to the group: some DPS, some added protection to the MT, some group buffing, and offtanking crowd control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I'm offtanking, I will grab aggro away from non Fighters... so if the healers or DPS get an add, I will taunt it off them and tank it for a while, until either the MT gets aggro, or we finish off the primary target and they start working on the add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians have all the tools necessary to perform this job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A little note on our utility... fear only lasts for a few seconds, but has a long reuse. Which means we can't permanently keep something out of combat. We can try and combine it with mez, but that will break the second someone does a single point of damage, and it still won't keep the thing fully out of combat until our timers come back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have only a single group buff, and it's to slightly increase the DPS of the group. It does not help the group at all when it comes to defense. Guardians have 4 seperate group buff lines, 3 of which directly help defense, 1 helping everyone hit the target easier (skill increase). This includes + Defense, + Stamina, + AC, + HP.</DIV> <DIV>While some fell this is a silly bonus (only the MT should be hit, so buffing the group is useless), how often is it, lately, that the MT is the only one being hit. Barrage like melee AoEs, Adds, group nukes, MT losing aggro for a few moment to the melee DPS... this group buffage will come into play quite often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can't fear the thing we are killing. If something turns on someone else, fearing will not work because it will get hit and immediately break.. and if not we will be chasing down the thing we were supposed to be killing. It's infinately better to just try and get aggro back via Taunts and Damage. Mez won't work either, because it WILL break the second someone does one thing to it.</DIV> <DIV>The only time these two things are useful is when an add shows up and no one is doing anything to it yet.. and the MT didn't get the aggro. While that's very usefull in that situation, it's harder a recurring thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So we get a very usefull thing for a specific situation... and Guardians get group buffs that are a minor bonus but applies more frequently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our self heal line is rarely used for tanking, I can barely afford using it power-wise, depending on the fight. If the fight is long enough that the healers would need me to use it, I'm probably going to be out of power myself anyways. I have lots of strength, and lots of power regen (all traits, and I often wear gebs for the long fights). I will still run out of power first if I try and DPS while tanking.. all I can afford to cast is maybe one big hit, and then 3 of my stuns (backstab is hard to do while being MT), the rest is taunts.</DIV> <DIV>If the fight is serious enough that I'd need to use my self heal, I'm usually low enough on power that it'd be a difficult choice. Self healing isn't what it used to be, not now that it's so low in healing and at the same time costing power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our self mitigation buffs are suicidal. I've used my emergency "stuns you while you get tons of mitigation" only when I'm offtanking and we get too many adds... I'll AoE, throw in a group taunt if I can, then stun myself so I don't take as much damage from all those attacks. But doing this means I will lose aggro quickly, as I can only use one single taunt.</DIV> <DIV>Wish I has beserker's Group Taunt that can be used while stunned/stifled.</DIV> <DIV>Our one that costs health is virtually useless. The only time it can help is if the ~500 points of mitigation would cover the 60% health loss over 3 minutes it costs. Which means we'd have to be being hit a LOT. Something avoidance tanks aren't built for. I've never used effectively since they fixed it to by a 6 second tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our utility is special scenario, or specific case at best. Guardians have better taunts, have weaker buffs that work in more situations. At worst, they are roughly equal in group utility... they can still stun, they can grab adds, and they help the group survive. Ours looks more "effective", simply because it's an all or nothing thing... the mob is "out of combat" for that brief period.</DIV> <DIV>It's all about appearances...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let's see... our utility is roughly equal (depends on the situation), Guardians tanking is a little better (they have more group taunts, they have more HP in the end and more mitigation, thus surviving better against higher level encounters), while we have some extra DPS.</DIV> <DIV>Since power regen has been nerfed so much, our DPS is no longer something that can be sustained, and definately not while tanking. At best we have burst DPS, which means if we can have the downtime, we can blast a single encounter... as long as it's a short one too.</DIV> <DIV>Even then we are the best of the fighters... I'm still blown out of the water by virtually any scout or mage. Sooo we get an added bonus for offtanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All that I've seen so far, in practice, between the two classes is that all our abilities point to us being the offtank, while the Guardians should be the MT. All their utility can be done while in MT position (aside from taking adds for the MT). It's hard maintaining aggro and trying to fear or mez other targets... I lost aggro more often than not doing that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So once again, I'm not sure where the complaints are coming from.</DIV> <DIV>Priests are having a harder time healing folks, and everyone's DPS and tanking ability got smacked down. Raids have been almost impossible in the old world, so if a raid guild's Guardian is only seeing these aspects of the game right now, and then looks at Bruisers doing well in other situations, his point of view is going to be skewed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers felt it just as bad as Guardians. But where Guardians have ONLY seen a reduction, we also got boosted in our tanking. So the cries for nerfs emerge. They see us actually being successful now, and only see that they are sucking compared to before, and immediately assume that they are the crap class to be now... even though what it is really, is that we are on an equal footing for the most part.</DIV>

[Thanous]

I'd agree with Raidi.  While every fighter got nerfed in some way, Guardians feel like they got nothing positve at all out of this.  Guardians got knocked down, and others were brought up.  Plus, you have to take into account the guardian mindset.  Most of us picked Guardian to be main tanks.  Now, it would seem after epic mitigation negation, that the choice we made way back when, might not have been the best.  Kind of disappointing, but then again, stuff happens... <div></div>

[BigRed1]

<DIV>I dont see the problem with the changes that have been put in place. I have been grouping with the same people since the revamp ..a gaurdian, assassin, coercer/dirge, mystic and warden. This group has seemed to work very well. The guardian is the MT and I generally off tank.. he is happy with the situation because he pulls I strip agro when the mob is 2/3 down and he pulls another mob..by the time he is back there is generally only a tic or two of life left on the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking seem pretty ballance between the two of us, he generally is taking more hits and his life is steadly dropping over the fight where as I take very few hits at all but do catch one or two large hits that drop me down. The fact is that avoidence is still streaky I can tank the same type of mob and 2/3 take little to no damage then the third lands several shots and I am dropping in health dramaticly. The real difference comes on higher lvl mobs that con orange or higher..these mobs land shots past my avoidence on a regular basis and do much more damage to me. The guardian is takeing more damage on the same mob too but not near what I take due to my lower mitigation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our boost mitigation spell while stunning us..I think it is pretty much useless as in my experience it seems to cut my avoidence or negate it all together..I start takeing alot more shots than I would if I just didnt use it ( I havent tried it yet on an orange con that would be hitting me most the time anway yet).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all it seems to me that Gaurdians still out strip us once you move away from the xp grind type mobs that generally tend to be yellow con to blue con. We havent started raiding much since the expantion..did Dreyak, Broog, and Angler so far..and the MT was a gaurdian and seemed to do fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kainn ~ 54 bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Everfrost ~ "The Horde"</DIV> <DIV>Been there, Seen that, Been killed by it, Came back and kicked its [Removed for Content]!!</DIV>

[Thanous]

<span><blockquote><hr>AsheBailey wrote:<img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/882/664.jpg"> Here are mine.  I think where in the level makes a small difference too. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Mean Taken    23.74004628        Percentile    Taken 0.05    0 5    0 10    0 15    0 20    0 25    0 30    0 35    0 40    0 45    0 50    0 55    0 60    0 65    0 70    56.98865671 75    62.23905965 80    66.45869176 85    70.5453452 90    74.55393494 95    79.64055992 99.5    91.28541389 Damage Taken Mean Taken    68.64629102        Percentile    Taken 0.05    34.32582381 5    51.70652405 10    55.45041435 15    57.96067478 20    59.95313049 25    61.70321761 30    63.24389104 35    64.67221645 40    66.03584264 45    67.35202435 50    68.64474541 55    69.93610609 60    71.24827454 65    72.61498251 70    74.04692706 75    75.5916246 80    77.30238487 85    79.31180213 90    81.84499821 95    85.56599712 99.5    94.85236067 </span><div></div>

[Al]

<P><IMG src="http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8156/mitig3jf.jpg"></P> <P>All rare t5 armor. All skills adept 1, defensive stance, 4 ring buffs (agi, str, sta, wis), nice jewelry (try to max my stats). My DPS isnt that great in def stance btw. </P><p>Message Edited by Alza on <span class=date_text>10-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:15 AM</span>