Whats allways failed to mention...

[Zen-Mojo]

<DIV>With the constant nerf calls and complaints about bruisers i decided to post what they never do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We lost 1/3 of our dps through lowing of combat art damage</DIV> <DIV>2. We lost the ability to mez epic targets</DIV> <DIV>3. We lost all debuffs save one and it was changed in effectiveness and now is piercing dependant</DIV> <DIV>4. Our shrug off line now has a near identical counterpart in every fighter class</DIV> <DIV>5. Our self heal was reduced in effectiveness and now costs power</DIV> <DIV>6. Half our combat arts are now restrictive to a certian damage type, out of 12... 1 pierce, 4 crush, 1 heat</DIV> <DIV>7. We lost our entire stifle line</DIV> <DIV>8. We lost the ability to buff our fist skill making fist weapos purely a flavor for our class</DIV> <DIV>9. The gap between minimum and maximum damage on our combat arts was increased by a huge amount</DIV> <DIV>10. The power cost on nearly every art has increased</DIV> <DIV>11. We lost 1k hit points</DIV> <DIV>12. we have the lowest power</DIV> <DIV>13. Our 4 stuns all last 3.5 seconds or less, all have a knock back component, 2 are crushing dependent,1 cant be used on epics, and the other is positional</DIV> <DIV>14. Our Ae dmg was reduced by a signifigant amount</DIV> <DIV>15. Our cure line for truama doesnt cure the effects from mobs that we solo or group for experience</DIV> <DIV>16. The mitigation on light armor was reduced again...</DIV> <DIV>17. We lost our skill to reduce hate</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This may not be a complete list of things we lost or gave. All to become a compairable tank to our mitigation counterparts. I wont even mention the risky nature of avoidence tanks to begin with. I just never see what we lost posted only our stregnths that help us become compairable tanks...</DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zen-Mojo wrote:<BR> <DIV>With the constant nerf calls and complaints about bruisers i decided to post what they never do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We lost 1/3 of our dps through lowing of combat art damage</DIV> <DIV>2. We lost the ability to mez epic targets</DIV> <DIV>3. We lost all debuffs save one and it was changed in effectiveness and now is piercing dependant</DIV> <DIV>4. Our shrug off line now has a near identical counterpart in every fighter class</DIV> <DIV>5. Our self heal was reduced in effectiveness and now costs power</DIV> <DIV>6. Half our combat arts are now restrictive to a certian damage type, out of 12... 1 pierce, 4 crush, 1 heat</DIV> <DIV>7. We lost our entire stifle line</DIV> <DIV>8. We lost the ability to buff our fist skill making fist weapos purely a flavor for our class</DIV> <DIV>9. The gap between minimum and maximum damage on our combat arts was increased by a huge amount</DIV> <DIV>10. The power cost on nearly every art has increased</DIV> <DIV>11. We lost 1k hit points</DIV> <DIV>12. we have the lowest power</DIV> <DIV>13. Our 4 stuns all last 3.5 seconds or less, all have a knock back component, 2 are crushing dependent,1 cant be used on epics, and the other is positional</DIV> <DIV>14. Our Ae dmg was reduced by a signifigant amount</DIV> <DIV>15. Our cure line for truama doesnt cure the effects from mobs that we solo or group for experience</DIV> <DIV>16. The mitigation on light armor was reduced again...</DIV> <DIV>17. We lost our skill to reduce hate</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This may not be a complete list of things we lost or gave. All to become a compairable tank to our mitigation counterparts. I wont even mention the risky nature of avoidence tanks to begin with. I just never see what we lost posted only our stregnths that help us become compairable tanks...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT size=2>Personally, I've come to the conclusion that any discussion between subclasses on these matters is pretty much a waste of time. The only people who can actually see what you've written are other Brawlers. What  everyone <U>else</U> sees is this:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>1. We're uber</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>2. Ha ha ha.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>3. Neener neener neener</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>4. We can do 50000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 DPS whilst AFK</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>5. Go f*ck yourselves</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>6. Light armour gives 110% resistance to all damage even if you aren't wearing it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>7. All Brawlers get 666 platinum as part of a secret deal with the forces of communism</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>8. All Brawlers get two (2) BMW 7 Series sedans  - or cash equivalent as part of a secret deal with the forces of capitalism</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>9. Bruisers get to have a go on Angelina Jolie and/or Brad Pitt in the island retreat of their choice</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>10. Tee hee hee</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>11. All Monks get prismatic weapons cunningly disguised as leather cestii</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>12. None of our CAs use power</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>13. In fact the more you use them, the more power you get</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>14. Any mob found hitting a Monk or Bruiser will be deleted from the game</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>15. Neener neener neener</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>16  All non-Brawlers will be required to perform any menial task assigned to them at any time by any Brawler or Brawler subclass currently in the same zone. This includes but is not limited to laundry, having to go buy cigarettes when it's [Removed for Content] down outside and cleaning out the fridge</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>17. We're getting married to SoE and you're not invited.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> etc etc etc</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[kildarn]

<DIV>Class vs. class comparison is pretty annoying I agree.  We aren't a guardian, wizard, assasin, paly or whatever.  We are bruisers and should be played / treated as such.  Treat the paly like a paly and me like a bruiser.  It's a different class, with different strengths and different weaknesses.  I don't compare my bruiser to my defiler.  They are completely different.   My bruiser can do things in ways that the defiler can't and the same the other way around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason to compare and contrast classes by most people IMO is jealousy.  A warlock is jealous that we can tank while a guardian is jealous that we can actually do some dps.  We're jealous of the warlock's dps and the guardians superior tanking ability.  Waaaaa.  That's all this class comparison, i gained this and lost that BS is about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People need to stop and remember that this is a video game.  This is not your job.  This is not your school.  This is not your wife or husband.  It's a [Removed for Content] video game.  Play it and have fun or go find something else to do.  Crying because you can't root / nuke a mob as a bruiser and that its not fair is just plain dumb.</DIV>

[ZIMTOK]

I am personally tired of hearing it as well.  I can't believe some of this talk of how we are a better tanks than Guardians.  They come up with these huge equations of how we take damage better.  Well I play a Bruiser and I can tell you that we don't even compare to Guardians when taking on epics or Heroics that are 4 levels or higher then you.  Avoidance is useless if the epic still has the ability to hit you everytime.  I know...I tried last night and was quickly replaced with a Guardian who did fine.  Seems that everyone is jealous of some of the other things we do well like dps and some of our utility.  But better tanks?  No way.  The only thing we might do better as a tank is keep agro due to our damage.  Other than that those peeps with those huge equations have no idea what they are talking about because they don't play a Bruiser.

[NoEsca]

<DIV>Speaking from the perspective of a fellow Bruiser who commiserates with the Guardians…</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zen-Mojo wrote:<BR> <DIV>With the constant nerf calls and complaints about bruisers i decided to post what they never do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We lost 1/3 of our dps through lowing of combat art damage</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Doesn't matter. We're talking fghter comparisons now, not same-subclass comparisons pre- and post-LU13.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>2. We lost the ability to mez epic targets</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Again, not relevant to the conversation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>3. We lost all debuffs save one and it was changed in effectiveness and now is piercing dependant</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Still not relevant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>4. Our shrug off line now has a near identical counterpart in every fighter class</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Okay, this one we can talk about. Yes, fighters now all have some sort of buff you/buff me line. This isn't a bad thing, as long as they're all more or less equal, which as far as I've seen they are.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>5. Our self heal was reduced in effectiveness and now costs power</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not relevant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>6. Half our combat arts are now restrictive to a certian damage type, out of 12... 1 pierce, 4 crush, 1 heat</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>How does this compare to other fighter subclasses? Are they also stuck with CAs tied to damage types?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>7. We lost our entire stifle line</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not relevant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>8. We lost the ability to buff our fist skill making fist weapos purely a flavor for our class</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not relevant. (Not that I think a Fists buff would help us much with the way they changed things to be so dependant on con-color)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>9. The gap between minimum and maximum damage on our combat arts was increased by a huge amount</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Only relevant if our potential damage range is so far out of keeping with other fighter subclasses that it causes us not to be top-tier fighter DPSers, which I don't think it is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>10. The power cost on nearly every art has increased</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not relevant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>11. We lost 1k hit points</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not relevant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>12. we have the lowest power</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not relevant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>13. Our 4 stuns all last 3.5 seconds or less, all have a knock back component, 2 are crushing dependent,1 cant be used on epics, and the other is positional</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I'm not sure I understand what this point was supposed to illustrate. Do other fighter subclasses have significantly better stuns? If they do, I haven't seen it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>14. Our Ae dmg was reduced by a signifigant amount</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not relevant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>15. Our cure line for truama doesnt cure the effects from mobs that we solo or group for experience</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>That's a subjective assessment. At ad1 my level 40 cure cures up to level 55 trauma/arcane. I can tell you it's saved my butt more than once (I'm not in the habit of soloing +13s, you know.)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>16. The mitigation on light armor was reduced again...</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not relevant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>17. We lost our skill to reduce hate</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not relevant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This may not be a complete list of things we lost or gave. All to become a compairable tank to our mitigation counterparts. I wont even mention the risky nature of avoidence tanks to begin with. I just never see what we lost posted only our stregnths that help us become compairable tanks...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The reason you don't see what we lost posted is beacuse it doesn't matter what we lost. Doesn't matter what they lost, either. The point of the vast majority of the posts you're seeing is a post-LU13 subclass to subclass comparison, and even with all we've lost we still come out pretty well. The thing is, we <EM>are</EM> better tanks in almost every equivalent case than a plate tank. I've done the tests with both SKs and Guardians. I'm not saying we should be nerfed—far from it. But I am saying that plate tanks need some more love. (Well, maybe not SKs, they got some sick love already compared to where they were pre-LU13 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Put succinctly, while everything you've listed is correct, it isn't arguing the same point the posts you're trying to refute are.</DIV>

[Traigus]

<span><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zen-Mojo wrote: <div>With the constant nerf calls and complaints about bruisers i decided to post what they never do.</div> <div> </div> <div>1. We lost 1/3 of our dps through lowing of combat art damage</div> <div>2. We lost the ability to mez epic targets</div> <div>3. We lost all debuffs save one and it was changed in effectiveness and now is piercing dependant</div> <div>4. Our shrug off line now has a near identical counterpart in every fighter class</div> <div>5. Our self heal was reduced in effectiveness and now costs power</div> <div>6. Half our combat arts are now restrictive to a certian damage type, out of 12... 1 pierce, 4 crush, 1 heat</div> <div>7. We lost our entire stifle line</div> <div>8. We lost the ability to buff our fist skill making fist weapos purely a flavor for our class</div> <div>9. The gap between minimum and maximum damage on our combat arts was increased by a huge amount</div> <div>10. The power cost on nearly every art has increased</div> <div>11. We lost 1k hit points</div> <div>12. we have the lowest power</div> <div>13. Our 4 stuns all last 3.5 seconds or less, all have a knock back component, 2 are crushing dependent,1 cant be used on epics, and the other is positional</div> <div>14. Our Ae dmg was reduced by a signifigant amount</div> <div>15. Our cure line for truama doesnt cure the effects from mobs that we solo or group for experience</div> <div>16. The mitigation on light armor was reduced again...</div> <div>17. We lost our skill to reduce hate</div> <div> </div> <div>This may not be a complete list of things we lost or gave. All to become a compairable tank to our mitigation counterparts. I wont even mention the risky nature of avoidence tanks to begin with. I just never see what we lost posted only our stregnths that help us become compairable tanks...</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div><font size="2">Personally, I've come to the conclusion that any discussion between subclasses on these matters is pretty much a waste of time. The only people who can actually see what you've written are other Brawlers. What  everyone <u>else</u> sees is this:</font></div> <div><font size="2"></font> </div> <div><font size="2">1. We're uber</font></div> <div><font size="2">2. Ha ha ha.</font></div> <div><font size="2">3. Neener neener neener</font></div> <div><font size="2">4. We can do 50000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 DPS whilst AFK</font></div> <div><font size="2">5. Go f*ck yourselves</font></div> <div><font size="2">6. Light armour gives 110% resistance to all damage even if you aren't wearing it.</font></div> <div><font size="2">7. All Brawlers get 666 platinum as part of a secret deal with the forces of communism</font></div> <div><font size="2">8. All Brawlers get two (2) BMW 7 Series sedans  - or cash equivalent as part of a secret deal with the forces of capitalism</font></div> <div><font size="2">9. Bruisers get to have a go on Angelina Jolie and/or Brad Pitt in the island retreat of their choice</font></div> <div><font size="2">10. Tee hee hee</font></div> <div><font size="2">11. All Monks get prismatic weapons cunningly disguised as leather cestii</font></div> <div><font size="2">12. None of our CAs use power</font></div> <div><font size="2">13. In fact the more you use them, the more power you get</font></div> <div><font size="2">14. Any mob found hitting a Monk or Bruiser will be deleted from the game</font></div> <div><font size="2">15. Neener neener neener</font></div> <div><font size="2">16  All non-Brawlers will be required to perform any menial task assigned to them at any time by any Brawler or Brawler subclass currently in the same zone. This includes but is not limited to laundry, having to go buy cigarettes when it's [Removed for Content] down outside and cleaning out the fridge</font></div> <div><font size="2">17. We're getting married to SoE and you're not invited.</font></div> <div><font size="2"></font> </div> <div><font size="2"> etc etc etc</font></div> <div><font size="2"></font> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>They nerfed the BMWs.. I got a KIA and a Segway O.o -T</span><div></div>

[familyguyfan95]

<P>I agree with Noescape that there is no need to complain about our revamps.  We have pretty much stayed the same with dps its other classes that needed some love like necros(which they got in some nice new dps)  and now the poor plate tanks.  I try to only look at the positives and i really like our new offensive stances and knock down attacks.  Just remember that this game changes more than i change my underwear(which by the smell and the flys is in need of a good new pair)  </P>

[MainFra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kildarner wrote:<BR> <DIV>Class vs. class comparison is pretty annoying I agree.  We aren't a guardian, wizard, assasin, paly or whatever.  We are bruisers and should be played / treated as such.  Treat the paly like a paly and me like a bruiser.  It's a different class, with different strengths and different weaknesses.  I don't compare my bruiser to my defiler.  They are completely different.   My bruiser can do things in ways that the defiler can't and the same the other way around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason to compare and contrast classes by most people IMO is jealousy.  A warlock is jealous that we can tank while a guardian is jealous that we can actually do some dps.  <FONT color=#cc0000>We're jealous of</FONT> the warlock's dps and the <FONT color=#cc0000>guardians superior tanking ability</FONT>.  Waaaaa.  That's all this class comparison, i gained this and lost that BS is about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People need to stop and remember that this is a video game.  This is not your job.  This is not your school.  This is not your wife or husband.  It's a [Removed for Content] video game.  Play it and have fun or go find something else to do.  Crying because you can't root / nuke a mob as a bruiser and that its not fair is just plain dumb.</DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P>Guardians tank equally well as other plate tank classes. You don't need to be jealous of anything. You already got all of them, while guardians can only tank.</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[ShinmaRyche]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>also, check this link. Class comparison done by Moor, specifically addressing Guardian abilities. </FONT></P> <P>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=18988#M18988</P>

[NoEsca]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ShinmaRyche wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>also, check this link. Class comparison done by Moor, specifically addressing Guardian abilities. </FONT></P> <P>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=18988#M18988</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The problem with Moor's post is that the Guardian buffs don't actually do what they say they do. Their C/P/S and Defense buffs make no noticeable difference, either in "feel" as Moor is fond of pointing to, or in actual parsed damage taken. Not sure about Berserker or Paladin buffs, but I know ours and the SK buffs work as advertised.