Berserker tanking with Bruiser DPS

[Fundi]

<DIV>       I'm a berserker and there's usually a bruiser DPS in any group I'm in (they rock the DPS scale).  I have a hard time keeping aggro from them unless I taunt the entire time, which is no good for group DPS.  It doesn't matter too much if the bruiser takes aggro when the mob is half dead, since they can take some hits.  I'm wondering one thing though.  I know berserker have a CA called "Offending Defense".  It has a 20% chance to proc damage, BUT it also has a 20% chance to proc a hate increase.  I only use this when tanking.  I'm thinking that the bruisers I'm grouping with use a move like this to increase their DPS and don't care wheather they take aggro or not.  I may be wrong, but I want to find out for sure without accusing them of doing something they're not.  </DIV>

[Gora]

<P>I do it all the time until it occurs to me to remove it.</P> <P><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Ask the bruiser what buffs they have up.  </P> <P>Argest</P> <P>Ancient Vengeance</P> <P>Najena</P> <P> </P>

[Drud]

<P>Yes...bruisers have a hate proc.  It was added in the revamp.  The one I use at lvl 51 is Quarrel.  It casts Roughhousing for about 50 to 60 damage (not sure at the moment) and it raises hate by 100+ some change.  He may be using it, but its damage is minimal, at best.  I'm not understanding why you aren't recovering.</P> <P>Hearing you say this raises some questions in my mind:</P> <P>1.  What level are your taunts.  App? Adept? Master?</P> <P>If your taunts are low-grade therein may lie your problem.  As a tank, I would be really concerned why I am not holding aggro.  I would probably start to lab as much as possible until I figure out a way to increase my hate.</P> <P>2.  Is the bruiser the same level as you, lower level than you, or higher than you?</P> <P>You also mentioned that you have to taunt the entire time during the fight.  Your first priority should be to want to increase your hate.  When I am tanking in a group I always keep my mind on the taunt timers to throw one in periodically throughout the fight.  Believe me, that one taunt you throw at the beginning of a fight is not going to keep aggro.  You have to constantly try to increase your hate by means of taunting or group buffage...</P> <P> </P> <P>Haavok</P> <P>Lvl 51 Bruiser</P> <P>Queynos Tool and Die, Co.</P> <P>Blackburrow</P> <p>Message Edited by Drudor on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[Fundi]

<P>       Does that CA cast hate increase and damage proc each time the bruiser hits, or is there a % chance that it will.  My aoe taunt is Master I, and my single target and attack taunt are adept Is.  At the beginning of a fight I use all 3 in sequence before I even start attacking.  No other class pulls aggro as much as bruisers, even when sometimes warlocks and rangers are doing more damage.  Now I know that it's due to this CA.  Even if it's a 20% to proc 100+ hate, that thing will proc a lot in a fight.  It's essentially the bruiser using taunts when not tanking.  This lowers the dps of the tank since he is having to taunt instead of attacking much at all, and depletes the tank's power pool as he is franticly trying to get aggro back, all for a 60 damage proc when the bruiser hits.</P> <P>Edit:  I'm 54.  The bruisers are 1 - 2 lvls below me</P><p>Message Edited by Fundinn on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:19 AM</span>

[ganjookie]

<font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2">36 - Brawl (Increases your chance at an additional attack with increased hate every time you strike in melee.) or </font><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2">50 - Quarrel (Increases your chance at an additional attack with increased hate every time you strike in melee.) Sorry not at work so no screenshots of the CA's </font><div></div>

[Dovifat]

25% chance, spell rank only affects the damage and hate numbers. <div></div>

[Fatedfr]

<DIV>My question would be why not just let the Bruiser be the Main Tank?  If he's grabbin aggro and you have a healer, that Bruiser could just tank and you could just do dps.  When it boils down, you are both getting xp and your are both going to survive the fight.  I guess I'm just a disgruntled Bruiser that's sick of people accusing us of not being able to tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your a higher lvl with more mitigation/avoidance/HP than it would only make sense that you should be the MT.  Therefor it is the Bruisers responsibility to manage his aggro, just as a scout or a mage or any other class would.  If it is brought to his attention and he still refuses to change his play style for the good of the group than in my opinion he is not a solid player.  As it's been said before many times, the playstyle of the person on the other end that determines really how good or bad a class can be.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bit of a rant... </DIV><p>Message Edited by Fatedfrog on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:23 PM</span>

[ganjookie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Fatedfrog wrote:<div>My question would be why not just let the Bruiser be the Main Tank?  If he's grabbin aggro and you have a healer, that Bruiser could just tank and you could just do dps.  When it boils down, you are both getting xp and your are both going to survive the fight. <font color="#ffff00"> I guess I'm just a disgruntled Bruiser that's sick of people accusing us of not being able to tank. </font> </div> <div> </div> <div>If your a higher lvl with more mitigation/avoidance/HP than it would only make sense that you should be the MT.  Therefor it is the Bruisers responsibility to manage his aggro, just as a scout or a mage or any other class would.  If it is brought to his attention and he still refuses to change his play style for the good of the group than in my opinion he is not a solid player.  As it's been said before many times, the playstyle of the the person on the other end is really how good or bad a class can be.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Bit of a rant... </div><hr></blockquote>Happened the other day in Ferrot.  Got a full pickup group with me as the tank.. as we start to head out 2 people had the nerve to say, "hey wait a minute we ont have a tank!" I coughed a couple of times, and they both replied how they knew  Bruisers where not tanks.....I left 10 mins later when they tried to tank (silly inquisitors)</span><div></div>

[TheSummoned]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatedfrog wrote:<BR> <DIV>My question would be why not just let the Bruiser be the Main Tank?  If he's grabbin aggro and you have a healer, that Bruiser could just tank and you could just do dps.  When it boils down, you are both getting xp and your are both going to survive the fight. <FONT color=#ffff00> I guess I'm just a disgruntled Bruiser that's sick of people accusing us of not being able to tank. </FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your a higher lvl with more mitigation/avoidance/HP than it would only make sense that you should be the MT.  Therefor it is the Bruisers responsibility to manage his aggro, just as a scout or a mage or any other class would.  If it is brought to his attention and he still refuses to change his play style for the good of the group than in my opinion he is not a solid player.  As it's been said before many times, the playstyle of the the person on the other end is really how good or bad a class can be.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bit of a rant... </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Happened the other day in Ferrot.  Got a full pickup group with me as the tank.. as we start to head out 2 people had the nerve to say, "hey wait a minute we ont have a tank!" I coughed a couple of times, and they both replied how they knew  Bruisers where not tanks.....I left 10 mins later when they tried to tank (silly inquisitors)<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Something similar happened to me. I was asked by an inquisitor if I wanted to go to DFC to kill Fyst. I still had a few quests I needed to finish in there, so I said ok... A templar joins. The inquisitor then said: "Now the only thing we need is a tank and some nukers" :smileyindifferent: . I was thinking of leaving, but decided to stay for a little while longer. A swashy joins the group. In the mean time the templar goes LD and doesn't return. As the inquisitor couldn't get a plate tank he then asked the swashy "How are swashies at tanking" :smileyvery-happy::smileysad::smileysad: I left the group after 5 more minutes...

[Fatedfr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatedfrog wrote:<BR> <DIV>My question would be why not just let the Bruiser be the Main Tank?  If he's grabbin aggro and you have a healer, that Bruiser could just tank and you could just do dps.  When it boils down, you are both getting xp and your are both going to survive the fight. <FONT color=#ffff00> I guess I'm just a disgruntled Bruiser that's sick of people accusing us of not being able to tank. </FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your a higher lvl with more mitigation/avoidance/HP than it would only make sense that you should be the MT.  Therefor it is the Bruisers responsibility to manage his aggro, just as a scout or a mage or any other class would.  If it is brought to his attention and he still refuses to change his play style for the good of the group than in my opinion he is not a solid player.  As it's been said before many times, the playstyle of the the person on the other end is really how good or bad a class can be.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bit of a rant... </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Happened the other day in Ferrot.  Got a full pickup group with me as the tank.. as we start to head out 2 people had the nerve to say, "hey wait a minute we ont have a tank!" I coughed a couple of times, and they both replied how they knew  Bruisers where not tanks.....I left 10 mins later when they tried to tank (silly inquisitors)<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Something similar happened to me. I was asked by an inquisitor if I wanted to go to DFC to kill Fyst. I still had a few quests I needed to finish in there, so I said ok... A templar joins. The inquisitor then said: "Now the only thing we need is a tank and some nukers" :smileyindifferent: . I was thinking of leaving, but decided to stay for a little while longer. A swashy joins the group. In the mean time the templar goes LD and doesn't return. As the inquisitor couldn't get a plate tank he then asked the swashy "How are swashies at tanking" :smileyvery-happy::smileysad::smileysad: I left the group after 5 more minutes... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Here, here!  I guess the only way to change thier minds (which I doubt will happen, due to a general think-headed population) is to show them.  Not only will we out DPS any other tank they wanna hide behind, but the sharp tounged healers will be sitting on full-powered-thumbs because we will avoid most of the hits coming at us.</P> <P>*side note (less damage taken=less power spent=more power for priest offense=more group dps=faster kils=more xp=<STRONG>COMMON SENSE!</STRONG>)</P><p>Message Edited by Fatedfrog on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:35 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>Getting back to the original topic, ever since the revamp I've forgotten I had that hate producing buff up when I switch to offtank position. Since our attacks almost all have either high damage, or some kind of added effect (which tends to increase hate), and since we have no real deaggro (short of FD AFTER we get aggro), adding even that 25% proc hate bonus will cause some decent aggro stealing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The damage from it is not enough to worry over losing, it's really meant as a hate proc. It used to be our "improve fist weapons" buff, so it took some getting used to to turning that OFF in DPS mode, but I'm starting to learn... if I forget, I usually have it turned off after the first time I steal aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note, I've never lost aggro (after establishing it, [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] shaman reactive ward) with single targets, but have often lost aggro to Zerkers in group situations. Dunno if they are using their hate proc too, but every once in a while a mob I'm not targetting turns on the zerker... so I land a good Dirty Punch of 1k damage, heh.</DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind, our stealing aggro may look like we can't get it back, but in fact the mob is just stunned and unable to turn back on us. I'm sure you've got tons of stuns too, so this probably isn't anything new to ya. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One last thing... Zerkers can make others in group go beserk, as I'm sure you know.. I've noticed that this boost in melee will sometimes push my damage aggro further than I'm used to, and I didn't realize I need to hold back a bit. WIthout it, I know not to chain certain attacks together for fear of grabbing aggro.. I'll wait a second or two, or use something lesser in between. With this bonus I found I've had to sometimes hold back a little more or I'll grab aggro without realizing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not necessarily a Bruiser specific problem, any melee really.. however since we are highest Fighter DPS and have no aggro dump like scouts, you will notice it most with us.</DIV>

[Vorham]

<P>Sounds to me like the bruiser has quarrel up or is spamming his arts pre-revamp style.</P> <P>quarrel pretty much guarantees the mob will turn on you from what I've seen, so I don't use it unless tanking/solo, and even then with offense stance, and RGF aggro is still an issue.  With the new fast cast timers on Combat Arts, the high damage/long recast nature of our attacks, and all the procs we have, if you spam arts like you could pre-revamp you'll probably pull aggro.  Not to mention all the proc buffs other classes can offer like was mentioned.  Best thing I've found to avoid pulling aggro is to just pace myself, put a second or two between each combat art, despite how tempting it is to spam them. And avoid using Savage Blows against groups until the aggro is established.</P>

[ganjookie]

I have a problem with my lil Warlock friend, who since upgrade his spells hit 3x as hard.  He pulls aggro 2x at least a fight on OJ^.  Thats in offensive stance, taunts and buffs being used, and all at least Adpet1 quality.  I can pull the aggro right back with a master1 Haymaker to the head, or a Suckerpunch, but sometimes I just let the mob wack on him a couple times and pull him off.  One thing I have noticed is that he is pretty good at avoiding the attacks too.  Before the upgrade he would crumple under a few hits, now he is up till the mob perishes. My taunts (minus fear), usually dont turn the mob back around as good as a well palced punch to the skull.  I  do like this aggro management a bit more, because it fits the role of a bruiser, but for groups of mobs it is a lil harder to gain control. PS sorry for derailing thread a minute there... <div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>One thing I like to do when fighting groups is to stagger my group damage/taunts. I'll pull with the group taunt, then hit single taunt on anything particularly nasty or if anything resisted, then do a damage hit to the primarily target (that folks should be attacking), and then use my aoe damage skills.</P> <P>It seems like you can't just get a lead and then roll with it anymore... you have to get a lead, then up that aggro again somehow after everyone has done their big hits. Single targets, this isn't a problem.. we have tons of single target attacks/taunt/taunt proc, etc.<BR>It's the group encounters that suck. It's awesome that our Group Taunt got a much needed shortened timer (it's 20 seconds now, used to be 30 seconds, no?), and at level 50 having that second AoE attack helps immensely.</P> <P>The problem is, we simply do not have the same group taunting capability as our "hold the line" brethren. Their "taunt the whole group" proc helps so much.</P> <P> </P> <P>My normal guild/RL friends and family group consists of myself (Bruiser), Zerker, Inquisitor, and Warlock. We are a DPS heavy foursome, and I've found that I hold aggro best on single targets, while my brother (Zerker) holds aggro best on group targets. We will actually switch who is MT on the fly depending on the pull... and since changing stances and offtank buffs are pretty much instant, it's not at all a headache to manage.<BR>I usually offtank with Combined stance anyways, since I'll keep aggro/crowd control and adds, sometimes all that needs to be done is switching who uses the offtank buff.</P> <P>Our warlock, when facing a group, can burn with the Zerker tanking... couldn't do that before revamp. It's only gotten better since her nihilism now assigns hate to the one with the buff, instead of her.<BR>Can't do that with me at the wheel.. I'm missing a crucial group hate ability.</P> <P><BR>All in all, I'm okay with this setup... it means we have a niche (tanking single targets) that we excel at, and other classes don't necessarily dominate all tanking aspects.</P>

[kildarn]

<DIV>My bruiser is 50 and I group with my guildy friends 50 (51 now) berzerker quite a bit.  Post revamp I grouped with him and had Quarrel running.  I wasn't paying attention and didn't know it was a hate proc.  I was just good enough at pacing my dps to not pull agro all the time.  However any time I wanted it I could steal it just by hitting that one extra combat art or clicking a taunt.  It drove the zerker nuts that I could grab it that easily.  Since then, I figured out what Quarrel does and turn it off when I'm not the MT.  I can still take agro if I need to but I actually have to work for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those that think Quarrel isn't that much hate take another look at the skill and balance it against your single target taunt.  Then think about some of our attack combos we do as a dps toon.  25% chance on an 8 hit crushing fury means it should roughly proc 2 times.  At app 4 thats roughly 230 hate.  Add in the 2-4 auto attack hits before you click your next CA and thats prolly another proc.  Then if you spam 4 or 5 kicks and punches real fast mixed with auto attack you are probably getting another 1-3 procs of it.  Add up all that hate and it's like you are using a master 1 taunt along with doing a serious amount of damage to the mob.  We can't expect another tank, standing infront of the mob gettin blocked hits and all to keep up with that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My advise is to tell the bruisers not to run Quarrel (or equivelant) while playing a dps role.  If they do this, pace themselves just a tad on CAs, and you taunt like you are supposed to there should not be a problem with agro control.</DIV>

[Winn]

<DIV>Monks get a similar skill, but it's called Dragon Stance/Advance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It does the same taunt amount as bruisers. We do however get it at 50% chance to proc per hit and the trade-off is that we don't do damage with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's very useful when i'm OT for the group and need to peel something off the healer, throw it up, use my rapid swings line and the faster recycle combat arts pulls it off easily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The extra damage bruisers get is nice, but so is the higher %age chance that monks get. This is one example of those subtle differences between bruisers and monks which i actually do like.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Thail]

<P>Over analizing again folks. Simply put. If I want aggro I get it. If I dont want aggro I dont. If this Bruiser is pulling aggro and holding it over your taunts then he is spamming his attacks.  If he paces them out you should be fine. </P> <P>On the flip side. Tank buddy of mine has 2 master taunts and 1 adept 3. I can pull aggro from him at will and hold it at the drop of the hat if I feal like it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Basicly ask your Bruiser to chill a bit on the hotbar. Same damage but paced out some what. You should be fine. </P>

[kr8ztwin]

<P>I had a bruiser lvl 50 trying to pull hate off me for fun.  Didn't happen....so i'm not sure if the OP is taunting at every given opportunity.  I do want to add that I love grouping with bruisers and monks heh.  I can start a fight with them tanking and pop on my friendly buff giving them a 33% to re-avoid an attack.  When and if their hp gets low I pull aggro (easy if you keep taunts behind theirs) and after a few moments a solid mob is pretty much dead.  Oh and I prefer it if a Bruiser/Monk tanks at first because I can land my Frenzy and get some solid damage in from behind.  Missin frenzy suckies heh.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you wanna drop aggro you just go to basic melee and let the other guy taunt like crazy...if you keep using damage skills it makes it more difficult :robottongue:</DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>I'm sure most tanks can pull aggro pretty much anytime they want. It's all about how much aggro you can generate in the shortest amount of time. Usually, folks are trying to pace things out... so you have power after the fight and can move quickly on. Chain pulling, or fighting through a dungeon, or whatnot.</P> <P>However, if I want to I can drop all my abilities one right after the other, and without even using taunt or rescue, grab aggro. This is simply because the Tank is pacing his abilities to keep aggro from others that are pacing their abilities. If I burn, I use up half my power and get aggro for a long while... enough to kill normal encounters. Epics would eventually be lost to others, and I'm sitting there with a lot less power or even out of power.</P> <P>So it's always possible... not the best idea though. Good for if crap hits the fan and we need to get something on us immediately and rescue is already down.</P>

[familyguyfan95]

<P>yes its all about pacing your hits.  my brother is a healer and he would tell you that in order to make his job easier that only one tank should have the aggro.  now this being said if you have another person tanking than besides yourself(bruiser) make sure you know how many spells you can cast that wont generate the hate needed to aggro the monsters to yourself.  i know it always is cool to take the aggro from someone else and it makes me feel like a bad boy but for the healer just makes his job harder.  now i play with a zerker all the time and have found out which spells i can cast and how long duration they are so that not to pull aggro from him.  be sure to start the heroic opp so that he can finish.  not only does he get a taunt in but he is able to to an extra couple hundred points of damage from that heroic opp to keep hate towards him.  yes anyone can pull aggro from anyone but that doesnt make it a wise move.  i feel that when do not tank i do more dps.  but when i tank than a bezerker tanks he is nto able to make up the required dps to lvl it out, so to me its best that he keep the aggro and for me to just bash within reason.   this is by no means telling you a bruiser is a worse tank than a zerker...but its just my style of play and i feel it suites me and my group members just fine.  </P>

[dragit]

There is a little trick , That i have learned that works pretty well , on keeping agro off the bruiser , I tend to cast vehemence , it ups the targets chance to avoid hits about 33% , and then If the bruiser takes agro I throw in an intercept , both of which are master 1 spells for , they seem to add hate to myself , in which I just throw in a taunt and usually get agro back . I must stress to throw in the intercept , during combat , it works once so a couple of those thrown in while taunting will do the trick . <div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Intercept DOES have a taunt advancer for HOs... so it stands to reason it may cause a decent amount of hate doing it.

[Grymgo]

I might be a little off base here, but aren't almost all taunts VERY fast cast? I highly doubt that having to hit taunts all throughout the fight significantly lowers dps. And I too usually leave Quarrel up, unless I see that the tank is struggling to keep aggro off of me then I will drop it.