Bruiser, by the book

[Azazul]

<DIV>I have been a level 50 bruiser for well over 3 months now, raiding daily ever since. I know my class and attempt to play it to the fullest of its ability, whatever the situation calls for.  I never gave a whole lot of thought to the idea of being either a tank or dps until we got closer to expansion. Seeing as how we are about a week away now I figured I'd toss my worthless couple pennies in on a couple debates that I've been keeping tabs on lately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all, this whole notion of being either a tank or dps is well.... just smoke and mirrors. I've seen a few people on here posting about bruiser rivaling guardians as tanks. Well.... we already do... situationally. I know that if a melee blue mob is swinging at me and an equally equipped guardian, I will take far less dmg almost always. There ya go... we're the great tanks you want us to be, you just have to take advantage of the opportunities that allow that to happen. But not for 1 second should you ever let a dream pass into your head of glorious days to come standing toe to toe with epic encounter mobs several lvls above you trading blows and standing your ground. This just simply makes no sense. A decked out "avoidance tank" such as a bruiser or monk is inevitably a variable. We rely on dice rolls. Guardians rely on % mitigation, a constant. When it comes to a big nasty that requires multiple healers to offset the dmg of the last thing anyone wants is variables. Just forget it. Roll a warrior if this is what you want from this game! But, I've been there.... its not as glorious as it seems, believe me, it's rather tedious. And now we come to the second part of our cherade, dps. Ahhhhhhhhh yes, the mythical dps. How fun it is to taunt your fellow guildmates while in sheer ecstasy as you out dps those you love to murder with. But dps too has a dark side. This ugly side of the beast is known as "committment." Lots of people will post numbers here and numbers there of classes "owning" and classes "sucking" The truth is, all classes see both phases depending on their gear, knowledge of the player, and situational effectiveness. It takes committment to get items geared towards higher dps(at a sacrifice to tanking), committment to learning your class and its many ins and outs, and then finally committment to apply that knowledge to get the most out of the situation you are in. It has abolutly nothing to do with set numbers in the code for a class that makes them this % mroe dps than this class, it simply does not work like that. I outdmg many warlocks/assassins/rangers/berserkers all of which are in their best situation to do the most dps, its certainly not because bruiser is designed by the devs to be higher dps than those class. It's due to any number of unknowns such as resists, bad dice rolls, people not taking advantage of everything they have to squeeze out all the dps they can, hitting the wrong button, someone knocking at your door, etc etc etc. DPS IS EVER CHANGING!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now for all of these people who have been posting where they want the bruiser class to go... pure dps, guardian like tanking ability (sorry, lol) or wherever in between. All you really need to do is approach the situation knowing you control what you want your class to be to a great extint. Don't forget that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now.... just so we're all 100% clear on what it is a bruiser was when we all picked the class, let me give you the definition from the manual that came with your game many moons ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fighter: Fighters use brute strength and sturdy weapons to deal physical damage to their enemies. Always at the forefront of combat, Fighters stand toe-to-toe with opponents while keeping their allies from harm. (notice the lack of the word tank)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawler: Brawlers specialize in physical combat styles that bring them face-to-face with the enemy. Favoring light armor and hand-to-hand combat tactics, brawlers have honed their bodies into potent weapons (notice we're starting to lean towards emphasis on dmg)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruiser: Bruisers are powerful thugs who use raw physical force to pummel their opponents. They have transformed their bodies into brutal, damaging weapons. (notice how this leaves absolutly nothing up for debate yet we are all debating it.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruiser are dps, as monks were dps in eq1. The abilitiy to still function(however little or much that functionality may be) as a fighter in a "tank" role in very specialized instances is what seperates bruiser dps and scout dps and caster dps, we all fill roles, many of us can fill more than one on many occasions. But the fact remains every class has a defining role, a role they are "best" at. Warriors and Crusaders are tanks, healers heal, casters do dps/utility, scouts do dps/utility, Bruisers leave bruises. Nuff said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bronyaur Stomp</DIV> <DIV>50 Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Guk</DIV>

[Xcomdefen]

<div></div>We will either be considerably better than, or worse than a real epic tank depending on what changes are being tossed around, the comfortable medium will be very hard to get...considering all types of encounters. Sure we have some utility, but it's nothing like most unique and needed utility casters offer <div></div><p>Message Edited by Xcomdefense on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:04 AM</span>

[Teidilu]

well i personalyl made my bruiser with the thought in mind that i could tank a lil better then a scout but my dps would be a lil less then a scout.... thats what i came into eq2 wanting adn they are takein that away.. *sigh* may as well quit now (( lol yea i kno you all are prolly tired of hearin that ))

[Dovifat]

Oh my, this horse already started smelling a year ago. The descriptions in the manual are fluff, as stated by the devs. Are they to blame for misleading those players who don't crawl the forums everyday ? Yes, they certainly are. Have they ever changed the intended role of the class since early beta ? Nope. <div></div>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Azazul wrote:I've seen a few people on here posting about bruiser rivaling guardians as tanks. Well.... we already do... situationally. I know that if a melee blue mob is swinging at me and an equally equipped guardian, I will take far less dmg almost always. There ya go... we're the great tanks you want us to be, you just have to take advantage of the opportunities that allow that to happen. But not for 1 second should you ever let a dream pass into your head of glorious days to come standing toe to toe with epic encounter mobs several lvls above you trading blows and standing your ground. This just simply makes no sense. A decked out "avoidance tank" such as a bruiser or monk is inevitably a variable. We rely on dice rolls. Guardians rely on % mitigation, a constant. When it comes to a big nasty that requires multiple healers to offset the dmg of the last thing anyone wants is variables. Just forget it. Roll a warrior if this is what you want from this game!<hr></blockquote>Yeah, it sure does feel great knowing I can tank garbage bluecon mobs that isn't worth the time it takes to engage and defeat them. Hurrah for our situational and useless spot in the light. there may very well be variables, but effort needs to be put in to eliminate these at best as possible. There has to be some funky mathematical code/equation that can allow for an Avoidance based tank in an computer game. Or sufficient amount of "abilities" to offset the randomness of Avoidance. I do not want to roll a warrior. I didn't start a Bruiser because I wanted to swing a sword and shield around while donning plate armor. I started a Bruiser for the different playstyle, while still maintaining the functionally that the Archtype was laid out to have from the day I joined the first beta. I do not desire to play a second rate subclass that has no place in raids. I did that far to long already with Rangers in EQLive and not looking to repeat that again. <span><blockquote><hr>Azazul wrote:Ahhhhhhhhh yes, the mythical dps. How fun it is to taunt your fellow guildmates while in sheer ecstasy as you out dps those you love to murder with. But dps too has a dark side. This ugly side of the beast is known as "committment." Lots of people will post numbers here and numbers there of classes "owning" and classes "sucking" The truth is, all classes see both phases depending on their gear, knowledge of the player, and situational effectiveness. It takes committment to get items geared towards higher dps(at a sacrifice to tanking), committment to learning your class and its many ins and outs, and then finally committment to apply that knowledge to get the most out of the situation you are in. It has abolutly nothing to do with set numbers in the code for a class that makes them this % mroe dps than this class, it simply does not work like that.<hr></blockquote></span>You have got to be kidding. Ofcourse there is set coding that defines the basic damage output of the various combat arts, autoattack, and spells of each and every Archtype/Class/Subclass in this game. Gear alone, or Spells/Combat Arts won't get you far enough to surpass some subclasses that doesn't even have to stress them selfs to maintain insane damage outputs. It has absolutely nothing to do with learning your subclass at all. <span><blockquote><hr>Azazul wrote:Now.... just so we're all 100% clear on what it is a bruiser was when we all picked the class, let me give you the definition from the manual that came with your game many moons ago.<hr></blockquote> You should know this by now. The Manual and the lore descriptions are flavor. They aren't set hardcoded definitions of what each subclass' primary, secondary and tertiary roles are in every environment. That is only written one place, the Archtype/Class/Subclass definition documents. You can analyze and breakdown the flavor descriptions as much as you want. Fact is, they are just that, flavor.</span> <span><blockquote><hr>Azazul wrote:Bruiser are dps, as monks were dps in eq1. The abilitiy to still function(however little or much that functionality may be) as a fighter in a "tank" role in very specialized instances is what seperates bruiser dps and scout dps and caster dps, we all fill roles, many of us can fill more than one on many occasions. But the fact remains every class has a defining role, a role they are "best" at. Warriors and Crusaders are tanks, healers heal, casters do dps/utility, scouts do dps/utility, Bruisers leave bruises. Nuff said.<hr></blockquote>No, they aren't a pure DPS Subclass, nor were they ever meant to be. They have absolutely nothing in common with any other game, because this is a standalone universe sharing certain lore ties to a previous universe that EQLive was built on. There is absolutely no relevance what so ever towards what some Classes were in EQLive. Every Archtype/Class/Subclass is defined independently here in EverQuest2.</span></span><div></div>

[Morhaxvith]

As it is now (have no idea hows it going to be after CC) a bruiser could never tank a lvl 57 epic mob as effectively as a guardian. Even if we get our avoidance up to 100% that means squat towards a mob that is 7 lvls higher. As we got lower mitigation we would much faster drop in health and we cant keep aggro as good as guardians. In a raid the guardian can now get 100% avoidance also and have much higher mitigation. Is there any question whatsoever who to choose as MT? If SOE changed it so the avoidance cap could be raised over 100% THEN and only then could we ever compete with guardians. I say its complete bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to ever compare us to a platetank in tanking ability.

[kildarn]

<P>It's also complete BS to think of a guardian as a dps type toon in a raid.  Even as a secondary dps type toon.  However brusiers can tank most mobs (not the biggest of the big as stated above) while having a viable dps position on the tree at the same time.  We are not, have not, and never will be meant to be the MT on a raid.  We have other abilities that make up for the lack of that.  A guardian has not, can not, and never will be put into a dps role on a raid.  They have extra tanking ability to make up for that loss of dps.  It's how it is.  It's why there are different classes with different spell skills.</P> <P>If all tanks were supposed to be equal there would only be 1 type of tank.  If all dps types were supposed to be equal there would only be 1 dps type.  That's not how this game is set up.  That's not how the mechanics work.  If you want to be the MT on a raid I mean this in the best of fashion, roll a guardian.  That's what their character is slated to do.  If you want to be able to maybe side tank on that raid, be a viable dps slot, or be the guy who runs away, casts FD, gets up and rezzes everyone then play a bruiser.</P> <P>I'm usually not one to say to others to re-roll a different character.  But if you were playing a sorcerer for crowd control ability I'd tell you to re-roll a chanter.  If you're playing a bruiser to be a raid tank I'm sorry but you chose the wrong class.  We're a situational tank, not the main tank on a raid.  We get things like fear, mezz, dps to cover for what we loose in tanking.  We have to face that fact.</P>

[Eskil Wybo]

im about to start playing a Bruiser from a guardian and have been reading up and i hate to break it to you guys, but directly from Moorguard, Bruisers are mitigation tanks, they have high avoidance yes, but monks seem to be the only true avoidance tanks. and we will also have more dps than monks(bruisers that is) so that news coupled with the fact that everyone is getting pretty much the same exact defensive stance across the board means we will be tanking much much better and may eventually see ourselves tanking an epic mob should the need arise. the days of the bruiser tank are upon us guys, lets embrace it before they take it away.=)

[Redbed]

<DIV>Casa ra sa ra....whatever will be will be....the futures not clear to see....ca sa ra sa ra.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We'll know when the change goes live.  Till then....we have nothing to base anything on.  Beta?  Ill remind you again the class went through a beta before the game went live.  We must have been up to their design specifications cause they released the game?  No?  Well then they released the game premeturely and their integrity in such matters is suspect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not telling you what to think or how to think it.  Just pointing things out in a calm logical manner.  Either we were meant to be how we were or they screwed up.  There is no other reasonable explanation.  If there is one  that refutes both of those please share it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either the game was balanced at release or they released too early.....sorry, but its either this or that.  This or that.  THIS.....or THAT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the game was balanced at release then Bruisers were meant to do the damage they did.....If not...they released too early....too EARLY!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they are so interested in Balance.....why did they set a date when the change would go live?  Cause I highly doubt on Expansion day if they delay everyting cause its not.  They will shove it out the door again.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say Im wrong!  Say it and feel that I am in the very depths of your soul......Can you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either we were balanced by design or they released too early.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One or the other.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

Everyone knows they released the game too early.

[MakhailSamma]

<P>I know I have been paying to pay a game in the latter stages of Beta and accept this. Hell, I would have paid $12 a month to play even if they said "Hey, the game is not done completely but for the most part it is playable and very enjoyable. We are offering to let anyone who wants to play now an oppurtunity to do so, but at $12 a month."</P> <P> It was the most enjoyable Beta I have ever been in anyways. Now, if the changes make the game non fun for me, I will deal with that then.</P> <P>But as said above:</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR>Everyone knows they released the game too early. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P>

[Redbed]

<DIV>Yes, but SOE has never said it.  So when somebody claims I picked the wrong class or I had false expectations or some other Bull [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] excuse....it bothers me.  It digs under my skin like a little digging thing and chomps down on my nerve endings.</DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Redbed wrote:<BR> <DIV>Casa ra sa ra....whatever will be will be....the futures not clear to see....ca sa ra sa ra.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We'll know when the change goes live.  Till then....we have nothing to base anything on.  Beta?  Ill remind you again the class went through a beta before the game went live.  We must have been up to their design specifications cause they released the game?  No?  Well then they released the game premeturely and their integrity in such matters is suspect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not telling you what to think or how to think it.  Just pointing things out in a calm logical manner.  Either we were meant to be how we were or they screwed up.  There is no other reasonable explanation.  If there is one  that refutes both of those please share it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either the game was balanced at release or they released too early.....sorry, but its either this or that.  This or that.  THIS.....or THAT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the game was balanced at release then Bruisers were meant to do the damage they did.....If not...they released too early....too EARLY!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they are so interested in Balance.....why did they set a date when the change would go live?  Cause I highly doubt on Expansion day if they delay everyting cause its not.  They will shove it out the door again.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say Im wrong!  Say it and feel that I am in the very depths of your soul......Can you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either we were balanced by design or they released too early.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One or the other.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0000>'Casa ra sa ra'</FONT></U></STRONG>- you see, this is what is wrong with EQ2 right now: no <EM>real </EM>knowledge of French* verb useage, especially with regard to the future conditional. I've said it over and <EM>over</EM> again, but Buisers (and Brawlers in general) <EM>can</EM>not expect SoE to take their grievances seriously until we face up to our responsibilty of spelling ALL extracts from old musicals with Julie Andrews properly.  It's <EM>'que sera, sera'</EM> for [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]'s sake! Jesus.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*or was it Spanish?</DIV><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>09-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 PM</span>

[Redbed]

<DIV>Does it really matter?  Im illeterate in English, why would I be fluent in Spanish or French.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>True story, I didnt graduate from High School cause I lacked 5 credits in Fine Art and Foreign Languages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you all know my dirty little secret!</DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Was joke. Was bored.</BLOCKQUOTE>

[Redbed]

<DIV>Sigh....Nobody gets me.  I blame Seinfeld for #$(*ing up everybody's sense of whats funny.</DIV>