Bruiser's raid role under the combat changes?

[ZIMTOK]

<DIV>I was very skeptical about the new combat changes because I really liked my dps.  But I warmed up to the idea if in return I was able to tank in a Raid.  Now that the changes are out and from what I am reading....I don't like it.  I could be wrong but it looks like our role is to support the MT with buffs and take care of any adds.  Pretty much a poor man's bard except with less dps and less buffing power.  Obviously if a raid needed buffs or an extra tank they would get a bard or guardian, not a bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone has more input, it would be appreciated.  I know Jezekiell and Gage(popular on these boards) wanted to be tanks in raids after the upcoming changes but that won't be happening it looks like.:smileysad:.  Well Bruisers and Monks are still really good soloers and decent group tanks.  Oh yeah...we were already good at that plus we had DPS.:smileysad:.  I'm glad I had a backup plan.</DIV>

[Rumbi]

<DIV>Now my ideas here may be a little bias (:smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but it could very well turn out that Bruisers are the best tanks in the game, so long as our Hit Points can contend with others. Here is why:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Brawlers will be allowed the highest avoidance out of all tanks due to our Light armor</DIV> <DIV>- Guardians will no longer be the best tanks, but rather the best tank <EM>buffers</EM></DIV> <DIV>- With the Mitigation cap at 80% a plate tank is within a certain limit that they can not excede the other tanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of our Light armor, we will have the <STRONG>highest avoidance of all tanks</STRONG>.  Jezekiel showed that self-buffed, he could get his Mitigation on Test (Beta maybe?) to the upwards of 60% if I remember correctly.  With a few Mitigation buffs, I don't see how a Brawler wouldn't be able to reach <STRONG>maximum mitigation at 80%</STRONG>. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is currently much easier to get avoidance up rather than mitigation.  Any old raid tank can have 100% avoidance, but it is the mitigation and HP's that make the difference.  Between the two Brawler classes, Bruisers are supposed to get better mitigation while Monks get the accelerated avoidance.  With max avoidance already attainable, it is my belief that mitigation will be the key factor here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of both of these factors, it is possible that Bruisers could be the best raid tanks after the combat changes, given they have a competitive Stamina.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... or I could be completely wrong. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Moski]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr> <div> </div> <div>- Brawlers will be allowed the highest avoidance out of all tanks due to our Light armor  <font color="#ff0000"> Guardians can wear Leather, too (and most of them will, becasue in Fables Plate Armor they reach 75% Mitigation without any buffs, and they Buff 15% Mitigation themselfs).</font> </div> - Guardians will no longer be the best tanks, but rather the best tank <em>buffers Guardians </em><font color="#ff0000">Guardians (now on test) still reach 284 defense and 260 parry solo, 65%avoidance in Plate Armor. If they switch some of their Plate Pieces to Leather because they still reach 80% Mitigation cap, i am sure they will reach 80% Avoidance raid buffed)</font> - With the Mitigation cap at 80% a plate tank is within a certain limit that they can not excede the other tanks <font color="#ff0000"> same for avoidance</font> <div> </div> <div>Because of our Light armor, we will have the <strong>highest avoidance of all tanks</strong> again, <font color="#ff0000">leather isnt limited to brawlers. </font> Jezekiel showed that self-buffed, he could get his Mitigation on Test (Beta maybe?) to the upwards of 60 if I remember correctly.  With a few Mitigation buffs <font color="#ff0000">(problem here: most classes dont buff mitigation anymore, no Cleric buff does. Guardians buff Mitigation. If a Guardian is needed in MT Group why should there be a second Fighter [besides avoidance buffs/Block buffs like Shrug Off) </font>, I don't see how a Brawler wouldn't be able to reach <strong>maximum mitigation at 80%</strong>.  </div> <div> </div> <div>It is currently much easier to get avoidance up rather than mitigation.  Any old raid tank can have 100% avoidance, but it is the mitigation and HP's that make the difference.  Between the two Brawler classes, Bruisers are supposed to get better mitigation while Monks get the accelerated avoidance.  With max avoidance already attainable, it is my belief that mitigation will be the key factor here. <font color="#ff0000">agree here, again Mitigation Buffs are very limited. most of them come from Guardians.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Because of both of these factors, it is possible that Bruisers could be the best raid tanks after the combat changes, given they have a competitive Stamina. <font color="#ff0000">the base Hitpoints of Bruisers are lower than the base hitpoints of Guardians. a guardian can get the same amount of stamina, so in the end the gaurdian will have mor hitpoints.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>... or I could be completely wrong. :smileyvery-happy: </div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Moskito on <span class=date_text>08-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:36 PM</span>

[industrock]

I think that there will be some major issues that will take place once the combatupdate goes live.  SoE will have some work on their hands once this goes live, to get all the kinks out.

[Rumbi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moskito wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Brawlers will be allowed the highest avoidance out of all tanks due to our Light armor  <FONT color=#ff0000><BR>Guardians can wear Leather, too (and most of them will, becasue in Fables Plate Armor they reach 75% Mitigation without any buffs, and they Buff 15% Mitigation themselfs).</FONT><BR></DIV>- Guardians will no longer be the best tanks, but rather the best tank <EM>buffers Guardians<BR></EM><FONT color=#ff0000>Guardians (now on test) still reach 284 defense and 260 parry solo, 65%avoidance in Plate Armor. If they switch some of their Plate Pieces to Leather because they still reach 80% Mitigation cap, i am sure they will reach 80% Avoidance raid buffed)</FONT><BR>- With the Mitigation cap at 80% a plate tank is within a certain limit that they can not excede the other tanks <FONT color=#ff0000><BR>same for avoidance</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of our Light armor, we will have the <STRONG>highest avoidance of all tanks</STRONG> again, <FONT color=#ff0000>leather isnt limited to brawlers. </FONT> Jezekiel showed that self-buffed, he could get his Mitigation on Test (Beta maybe?) to the upwards of 60 if I remember correctly.  With a few Mitigation buffs <FONT color=#ff0000>(problem here: most classes dont buff mitigation anymore, no Cleric buff does. Guardians buff Mitigation. If a Guardian is needed in MT Group why should there be a second Fighter [besides avoidance buffs/Block buffs like Shrug Off) </FONT>, I don't see how a Brawler wouldn't be able to reach <STRONG>maximum mitigation at 80%</STRONG>. <BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is currently much easier to get avoidance up rather than mitigation.  Any old raid tank can have 100% avoidance, but it is the mitigation and HP's that make the difference.  Between the two Brawler classes, Bruisers are supposed to get better mitigation while Monks get the accelerated avoidance.  With max avoidance already attainable, it is my belief that mitigation will be the key factor here. <FONT color=#ff0000>agree here, again Mitigation Buffs are very limited. most of them come from Guardians.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of both of these factors, it is possible that Bruisers could be the best raid tanks after the combat changes, given they have a competitive Stamina. <FONT color=#ff0000>the base Hitpoints of Bruisers are lower than the base hitpoints of Guardians. a guardian can get the same amount of stamina, so in the end the gaurdian will have mor hitpoints.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... or I could be completely wrong. :smileyvery-happy:<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Moskito on <SPAN class=date_text>08-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:36 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As far as I know, the combat changes for Fighters are not complete on Test.  </P> <P>You are correct with many of the comments you made, but if it comes down to Guardians being able to tank better by a wearing lower armor type, then something is terribly wrong.  Guardians (IMO) are supposed to wear big heavy armor.  That is just what they are supposed to do.. downgrading armor from plate to leather (usually giving comparable stats with less mitigation) should not make a Guardian a better tank.  That is a design problem and if it is true, needs to be fixed.<BR></P>

[blueduckie]

It all depends on the type of mobs you are tanking. Some guardians already use some light armor items such as golden efreeti boots and king tranix helm when xping. Raid mobs that are yellow+ will be alot harder for guardians to hit the 80% mitigation cap. If you compare Drakathor being lvl 58 no guardian atm with changes on test wll be hitting max mit but will be above all the others. What i personally think it will come down to is you have mobs like archlich. Well it looks like resits buffs are lowering a little. So whichever tank has resist needed on stance buff is likely to tank unless that boost isnt high enough to keep them highest tank on that resist. Who knows how mt group set ups will be after the change. Buffs are so different and not finished yet we cant tell what will be the best set ups. I am sure bruisers will be fine though.

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rumbite wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now my ideas here may be a little bias (:smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but it could very well turn out that Bruisers are the best tanks in the game, so long as our Hit Points can contend with others. Here is why:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Brawlers will be allowed the highest avoidance out of all tanks due to our Light armor</DIV> <DIV>- Guardians will no longer be the best tanks, but rather the best tank <EM>buffers</EM></DIV> <DIV>- With the Mitigation cap at 80% a plate tank is within a certain limit that they can not excede the other tanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of our Light armor, we will have the <STRONG>highest avoidance of all tanks</STRONG>.  Jezekiel showed that self-buffed, he could get his Mitigation on Test (Beta maybe?) to the upwards of 60% if I remember correctly.  With a few Mitigation buffs, I don't see how a Brawler wouldn't be able to reach <STRONG>maximum mitigation at 80%</STRONG>. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is currently much easier to get avoidance up rather than mitigation.  Any old raid tank can have 100% avoidance, but it is the mitigation and HP's that make the difference.  Between the two Brawler classes, Bruisers are supposed to get better mitigation while Monks get the accelerated avoidance.  With max avoidance already attainable, it is my belief that mitigation will be the key factor here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of both of these factors, it is possible that Bruisers could be the best raid tanks after the combat changes, given they have a competitive Stamina.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... or I could be completely wrong. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yeah you are a bit wrong... if heavy armor is so worthless all that will happen is the guards will be taking your light armor drops for themselves... who needs heavy armor when u can get 80% mit with light armor and more avoidance?? yeah so have fun getting yer light armor..

[Rumbi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>yeah you are a bit wrong... if heavy armor is so worthless all that will happen is the guards will be taking your light armor drops for themselves... who needs heavy armor when u can get 80% mit with light armor and more avoidance?? yeah so have fun getting yer light armor..</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which is total bu||shiz.  If that is the case, then Sony fvcked up with their design and need to rethink it.. yet again.</P> <P>I'm not worried about getting Light armor because of how my guild works... but I do feel bad for Brawlers in other guilds who run differently.</P>

[Irt]

<div></div><p>I hope that Sony changes the way they display our defensive statistics.  This is how I understand the defense ratings.  I’m not in beta or test and have no way of proving or disproving just my 2 coppers.  When you increase you mitigation you get a numerical value.  This value is compared to a MOBs con/level/skill and a formula determines what % of damage gets mitigated.  This percentage has a cap on it of 80%.  This % is NOT the % displayed on your character info screen.   That % is your numerical mitigation compared to an equal leveled MOB.  This I think is the confusing part.  If the target mob was in fact level 50 then I think guardians would be seeking light armor to boost their avoidance.  However, we don't raid level 50s so I don't think Guardians will be hanging up their heavy armor just yet. I think the game calculates your mitigation versus a MOB trying to hit you.  I think it does a separate calculation to determine the display value on your view personal stat screens.  I think they are both percentages that represent different things.  I think the cap only applies to the MOB versus player calculation and has nothing to do with the displayed player stat version.I can't prove any of this.  Simply put this is how I see it. </p>Irt<div></div>

[industrock]

<DIV>Irt, the mitigation and avoidance percentages that are shown in your persona are for equal level mobs.  When you scroll over them, they will say something like "73.7% chance of avoiding attacks from lvl 50 opponents" (when you're lvl 50, of course)</DIV>

[Irt]

Exactly, so folks worried that guardians will be wanting light armor doesnt make sense to me.  A guardian wants to cap his mitigation at 80% versus the MOB he/she is fighting not just an equal level MOB.  Chances are they will need all the mitigation they can muster to be tanking a contested MOB.  I think folks look at that displayed value of 80% on their player screen and think they are capped but like you said it just means they are capped versus an equal levelled opponent.  I wouldn't be concerned with guardians wanting your light armor drops, now dirty assassins ........... <div></div>

[Rumbi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Irt wrote:<BR>Exactly, so folks worried that guardians will be wanting light armor doesnt make sense to me.  A guardian wants to cap his mitigation at 80% versus the MOB he/she is fighting not just an equal level MOB.  Chances are they will need all the mitigation they can muster to be tanking a contested MOB.  I think folks look at that displayed value of 80% on their player screen and think they are capped but like you said it just means they are capped versus an equal levelled opponent.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>From what I have gathered in readings... you are wrong.  The mitigation displayed in your persona window is your % change to mitigate a target of equal level.  With this, a mitigation of 80% against a creature higher level than you is never possible.  As far as I believe, the displayed 80% mitigation is the highest you can get, and anything done beyond this will either a) not be displayed, or b) be displayed but meaningless.  </P> <P>Unless someone can prove otherwise, I will assume that when you are fighting a higher level mob, the maximum will always be below 80%.</P>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rumbite wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Irt wrote:Exactly, so folks worried that guardians will be wanting light armor doesnt make sense to me.  A guardian wants to cap his mitigation at 80% versus the MOB he/she is fighting not just an equal level MOB.  Chances are they will need all the mitigation they can muster to be tanking a contested MOB.  I think folks look at that displayed value of 80% on their player screen and think they are capped but like you said it just means they are capped versus an equal levelled opponent.  <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>From what I have gathered in readings... you are wrong.  The mitigation displayed in your persona window is your % change to mitigate a target of equal level.  With this, a mitigation of 80% against a creature higher level than you is never possible.  As far as I believe, the displayed 80% mitigation is the highest you can get, and anything done beyond this will either a) not be displayed, or b) be displayed but meaningless.  </p> <p>Unless someone can prove otherwise, I will assume that when you are fighting a higher level mob, the maximum will always be below 80%.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>It's vs an equal level opponent, you could hit 80% mitigation vs higher level critters, but you would need alot more mitigation depending on their level. In other words it scales, it just doesn't show because the % is vs an even level solo mob.</span><div></div>

[Nazo]

<P>Keep in mind that with WIS playing a big important part now all Tanks on raids will be facing a big dilemma. All the mitigation or avoidance wont help a bit when a silly shard Drakota nukes you for 10K while you are running to position. Just last week CT one nuked MT with Nil Distortion then landed an Ice Comet on backup tank for fun :smileytongue:</P> <P>With the way things are going I am expecting SoE to add more and more hard nuker mobs which will make melee tanking not that important compared to resist tanking. Add to this the fact that Clerics go nuts if you bid on any WIS gear and picture looks bleak...</P>

[Rumbi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR> <P>Keep in mind that with WIS playing a big important part now all Tanks on raids will be facing a big dilemma. All the mitigation or avoidance wont help a bit when a silly shard Drakota nukes you for 10K while you are running to position. Just last week CT one nuked MT with Nil Distortion then landed an Ice Comet on backup tank for fun :smileytongue:</P> <P>With the way things are going I am expecting SoE to add more and more hard nuker mobs which will make melee tanking not that important compared to resist tanking. Add to this the fact that Clerics go nuts if you bid on any WIS gear and picture looks bleak...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree the WIS will be neccessary for tanks after the changes (though I don't completely agree that it should happen).  The drakota you are talking about, though, is a rare occurrance.  It is supposed to do what you stated.  It is perma-rooted and has every high damage blast from every Mage class in the game.  In return, it has low hitpoints.<BR>