Do things change?

[Sa]

<DIV>First off I read alot of posts here and get confused due to the fact that alot of you talk of our DPS as if it were mediocre at best. When im LFG I hardly ever get picked to tank I am usually grabbed up for damage. I understand some people dont see us as DPS but alot of you other bruisers dont see us that way either. When im behind a mob I put out damage. Been parsered many times and I always out damage most if not all my group. The ocasional wizard or warlcok will out damage me but thats about it. Was just wondering if things changed at higher lvls since I am merely 37th season atm. </DIV>

[CosmicAcidGu]

<P>I'm level 50 and raiding. I usually ditch out enough damage on singe raid mobs that the original tank cannot keep up with taunts. So in many cases I end up tanking raid mobs for the remaining 20% HPs. On some raid mobs I die during those 20% and on others I don't. (so I usually take it easy on the bigger ones to save me some bruises).</P> <P>Does that answer your question?</P> <P>Finnster</P>

[Sa]

Yes thanks that helps. Thats the problem I have as well. I usually steal agro from the MT when dual wielding alot of times I have to switch to 2H so I dont make them mad.

[kildarn]

Raiding aside I love my bruiser for the 2 roles I can play.  At 45 I can pace an assasin on dps or I can be the MT.  I dont do nearly as much damage when I'm MT (about 30-40 less dps) but I can stand my ground against 48 ^^ mobs with a single healer in the group.  Trust me when I say we can lay it down as a dps role in a group as I've never had a complaint about how much damage I was putting out.

[Moski]

due to the fact that we wield 2 weapons or a 2handed weapon we do good damage. but so could every other fighter class do. berserker, guardians could dual wield to make damage, paladin and shadowknight could use 2handed weapons. most of the time they tank and they use a one handed weapon and a shield. that lowers their dps. the melee skills we get are offensive and do nice damage. but we should (and will after the combat changes) never be close to a scout or mage. soe stated since beta till now multiple times that we are a fighter and tank class. the dps will scale mage > scout > fighter > priest if u wanna be a dps class you might be dissapointed after the changes.

[Opa]

<DIV>Moskito said it well. At present, we have very nice DPS at 50. SOE has stated that our DPS will be adjusted relative to scouts (adjusted down).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We will probably always have top-rate DPS for tanks, but will not be likely to have top-rate DPS period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I, for one, think it's a good thing.</DIV>

[ZIMTOK]

<DIV>Opaki, I don't know why you would be happy that will be hit with the nerf bat.  LOL.  Anyways, if SOE decides to hit our DPS then we will be in trouble.  I don't know about you guys but I sure am not being picked up because of my tanking ability.  If there is another tank class in the group, guess what?  That's right, you are not tanking.  9 times out of 10, you will not be tanking.  It's fact.  You may be picked to tank over a monk but only if its a lower level.  Which means to be me that I am being picked up in groups because of my DPS.  That's fine with me as long as I have a roll.  If they do hit us with a Nerf bat then they sure as hell better give us some better taunts especially Group Taunts.  The only way we keep group agro now is by DPS and buffing during combat.</DIV>

[Opa]

<DIV>I'm not happy we're getting nerfed. I like to have awesome DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I think is a good thing is: </DIV> <DIV>(1) DPS classes having better DPS than tank classes (because that just seems more fair), and </DIV> <DIV>(2) the fact that devs think of us as a tank class, and not a DPS class, which gives me every confidence that our defense will grow accordingly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once our class is done well, the "fact" that we're not often main tank will cease to be true. I picked a fighter to be a tank. If I wanted better dps and not to tank ever, I could have rolled a scout or mage.</DIV>

[DecisiveFor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moskito wrote:<BR><BR>due to the fact that we wield 2 weapons or a 2handed weapon we do good damage. but so could every other fighter class do. berserker, guardians could dual wield to make damage, paladin and shadowknight could use 2handed weapons. most of the time they tank and they use a one handed weapon and a shield. that lowers their dps. <BR><BR>the melee skills we get are offensive and do nice damage. but we should (and will after the combat changes) never be close to a scout or mage. soe stated since beta till now multiple times that we are a fighter and tank class.<BR><BR>the dps will scale <BR>mage > scout > fighter > priest<BR><BR>if u wanna be a dps class you might be dissapointed after the changes.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am a Guardian, and yes I change to a SBH 2h or dual wield when I join a group that has a higher level MT than me. I in effect forget agro spells in favour of DPS and can dish some reasonable damage. Many Guardians do not bother researching or spending coin on getting an effective DPS set up for their character. For instance I had 2 dwarven daggers of cleansing, which gives additional damage proc, and with Gnoll Masters Rage for example which procs extra damage on a % of hits (maxed by using dual wield & fast hit rates on the weapons 1.2 secs on these daggers I think it was) my DPS was great. I am curently repeating the set up with dual wield imbued items.</P> <P>Secondly, one reason why fighters parse higher than scouts or equal to mages at times is because we just get stuck in from the start. We will do melee & spell damage from start of fight until the final mob drops. Mages often hold back to avoid stealing agro in first 10 seconds or so, even having to stop if a mob peels off to attack them. The scout menouvers around the mob for arrow shots or sneaks. etc. So real DPS for an encounter with a keen well set up & played fighter should not be underestimated.</P> <P>You Bruisers/Monks are welcome in my groups as DPS anytime.<BR></P>

[ganjookie]

<span><blockquote><span><blockquote>DecisiveForce wrote: <p><font color="#ff0000">You Bruisers/Monks are welcome in my groups as DPS anytime.</font></p> <div></div><hr> </blockquote></span></blockquote></span>/whine but I wannnnaaa taaaannnnnnnnnkkkkk /whine off <div></div>

[Redbed]

<DIV>Yes alot of Bruisers are confused as DPS Because of their awsome attack buffs, their fast and hard hitting weapons, and their superb multiple single target attacks and FLANKING strikes.  But your fooling yourself if you think you should be DPS.....you were meant to be a tank....just look at the kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] armor your wearing.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sarcasm train leaving in 1 minute from platform 7....ALL ABOOARRRDD....WOOOOO HOOOOOOO WWOOOOOOOOO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry....I shouldnt keep it going but I have to....The evidence is there ....but you have people saying the exact opposite, it boggles my mind.  Like the whole Tomatoes are a vegitable thing....You can call it a vegetable all you want.  But its still a fruit.</DIV>

[Grumthar]

Well, I'm not a Bruiser.  My highest character is a 28 Shadowknight, but since the rebalancing was announced I've been reading up and considering how this may affect me.  I'm not ready to jump ship on SK's, but I have started a brawler and I'm investigating what they can and cannot do both through experience and reading these posts.  What I've learned is that everything is true depending on your point of view.  DPS, Tanking, it can be done with any fighter class to a greater or lesser degree.  I am disappointed that SK's might get hit with the nerf bad in all this making them 4th (supposedly) in tanking ability behind Guardians, Paladins and Berserkers.  I still think I'll be able to do it ok and I think Opaki has the right idea when he said:     (2) the fact that devs think of us as a tank class, and not a DPS class, which gives me every confidence that our defense will grow accordingly. Having played EQ1 for 6 years as well as just about every other MMO, I am prepared for and accept that no class will ever stay the same.  I hope that Shadowknights and Bruisers can find some peace despite the impending rebalancing and just enjoy the game. Patience friends. <div></div>

[Opa]

Just something that could bear noting, off the top of my head, here are some statistics: Number of positional attacks we get in our career: 2 Number of Taunts (+hate generally) we get in our career: 9 Number of Defensive Stances we get in our career: 3 Number of 30 second defensive buff we get in our career: 3 If the numbers are off, forgive me, and please give me the correct ones so I can edit it. My point is, our skills do not tell a convincing story that we're not meant to be tanks. Quite the contrary, we have 4 times more taunts than positional attacks. If you were to look at brigands, or some sort of scout class, you'd find their percentage of positional attacks much much higher. There's a clear differentiation in terms of skill sets. <div></div>

[Redbed]

<DIV>Well Opaki you didnt finish your homework.  You only showed the breakdown of the things that support your claim.  Finish the breakdown and show the whole picture of our entire skill set.  Or would you rather I did it?</DIV>

[Opa]

Please go ahead and finish the work I started Red. I never claimed it was a thorough-going analysis of all our skills. I chose the ones that supported my point, you're totally right. In my book, there's nothing wrong with someone making a claim, and then showing their reasoning without writing a novel to appease the lazy who don't want to bother to make their own case. Please, if you want to do a complete rundown of how our skills tell a story about our class, and what story it tells, do it. I actually think it would be something that could spark some interesting discussion. One caveat to bear in mind, however: if you're going to use a total or % of skills that are attacks, those should be weighed against the same numbers for guardians, who also get several attacks. But to repeat, you didn't call me out on anything because I obviously only show evidence for my position in my posts. This is because I don't see any need to do your work for you, and I have every confidence if you apply yourself, you'll be able to have a reasoned discussion with me. I always did my homework, and I got good grades too. And if you really want to compare intellectual e-wangs, we can talk about our SAT scores too. However, I'd appreciate it if you could do less talking about what I did and did not say, and more saying something of your own. How about it? <div></div>

[Redbed]

<DIV>Well these are the numbers I came up with.  I graded on 2 criteria.  The first deliantes Tanking/DPS/Neither denoted by T, D, or N.  Which skill helps you do which better (this is open to interpertation and I am more then willing to hear arguments if you think I have got one wrong.  The second criteria simplifies it to whether the skill is offense or defense based.  Again, open to arguements.  Denoted by Off or Def.  The taunts are arguable so I did the solomanic thing and sliced them in half for the second criteria, but they both benefit tanking more then DPS.  Oh and I left out all the training since not everyone will have every one of them so its superflious to the discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunt Single - 4 T Off<BR>Taunt<BR>taunting slap<BR>Slurred Insult<BR>instigate</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunt AOE -4 T Def<BR>Shout <BR>jeer<BR>boast<BR>abuse</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Single Target attack - 23 - D Off<BR>Wildswing<BR>Kick<BR>Power Strike<BR>Thrust Kick<BR>Shoulder Charge<BR>focussed strike<BR>bruising strike<BR>Flying Kick<BR>Crash<BR>Fierce Punch<BR>eye gouge<BR>blitze<BR>haymaker<BR>grapple<BR>Throat punch<BR>merciless stomp<BR>burning lunge<BR>Hammerfist<BR>eye rake <BR>pummel<BR>crusher<BR>meateor punch<BR>roundhouse</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Temp Def buff - 6  T Def<BR>Toughness<BR>Martial Focus<BR>Bruising Spirit<BR>Bob and Weave<BR>Heavy Scarring<BR>Battle Fury</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flanking attack - 2 D Off<BR>Sucker Punch<BR>Dirty Punch</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concentration Defense - 5 T Def<BR>Intervene<BR>brawlers stance<BR>Bouncer<BR>Taunting Stance<BR>Retaliation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concentration Offense 4 D off<BR>Thundering Fists<BR>Fiery Fists<BR>Roughhouse<BR>brawl</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Multiple Target AOE 5 D Off<BR>Assault<BR>Whirling Blaze<BR>beatdown<BR>Bonecrusher<BR>Savage blows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group Buff Offensive 2 D Off<BR>Call to Arms<BR>Rousing cry</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group Buff Defensive 1 T Def<BR>Intimidating orders</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Escape Skill 3 N Def<BR>Feign Death<BR>play dead<BR>stop heart</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Self heal 3 N Def<BR>Ignore pain<BR>Ignore Hurt<BR>Ignore agony</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defense buff Special 3 T Def<BR>Staggering stance<BR>Overtaking blows<BR>shrug off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Single Target multi hit 3 D Off<BR>Rapid Swings<BR>One Hundred Hand slap<BR>crushing fury</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Special 2 N Def<BR>Intimidate<BR>Indomitable Will<BR></DIV> <DIV>Someone feel free to check my numbers since Im horrible at simple arithmatic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Offensive - 43</DIV> <DIV>Defensive - 27</DIV> <DIV>----------------</DIV> <DIV>Tanking - 23</DIV> <DIV>DPS - 39</DIV> <DIV>Neither - 8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are simply my findings....lets discuss.  Oh and if someone wants to make up a similer setup for a Guardian and whatever the most offensive scout class is, it would probley help greatly with the discussion.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Redbed on <span class=date_text>06-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:56 PM</span>

[Opa]

I already somewhat anticipated this critique, but I'll reiterate it. The thing about attacks is that everyone gets them. Preists get nukes, Guardians get attacks, even Enchanters get attacks. So I think just looking purely at the number of attacks versus some sort of defensive skill is wrongheaded. What I'd really be curious to see is the number of attack arts we have over what a guardian has, and the number of defensive skills a guardian has over ours. I would hardly call Thudering Fists a +dps thing, but other than than, I don't think there's much need to pick your categories apart. Anyway, my critique here is there's no frame of reference. Let's look that the numbers vs. guardians and then the numbers vs. brigands or something. I going to guess that guardians have more attacks that defensive spells too. <div></div>

[Redbed]

<DIV>Well heres my guardian breakdown...its not pretty and it doesnt really say what I want it to say but its the best I can do.  Feel free to rip it apart.  Ive never played a guardian and never really payed that much attention to the way they played.  So...take which a large grain of salt.  Ill try to have a brigand one up later, which will carry the same weight, never played one, clueless to what they do.  Seems Guardians get 4 more total skills then us though.  I find that interesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GUARDIANS</DIV> <DIV>Taunt Single 5 T Offensive<BR>Taunt<BR>Taunting Blow<BR>Anger<BR>Suppress<BR>Deafen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunt AOE 7 T Defensive<BR>Shout<BR>Hold the Line (Looks to fufill criteria)<BR>Shouting Cry<BR>Taunting Challange (Looks to fufill criteria)<BR>Smothering Cry<BR>Vengeful Strike (Looks to fufill criteria)<BR>Protect (Looks to fufill criteria) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Single Target attack 26 D Offensive<BR>Wild Swing<BR>kick<BR>Mangle<BR>Shield Bash<BR>Wound<BR>Forced Swing<BR>concussion<BR>Knee Break<BR>Slam<BR>Ruin<BR>True Strike<BR>Bull Rush<BR>Maim<BR>Shatter<BR>Batter<BR>Invade<BR>Crush<BR>ferocious charge<BR>Retaliate<BR>Unerring strike<BR>Staggering Slam<BR>Cleave<BR>Overwhelm<BR>Vindication<BR>Swamp<BR>Blast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Temp Def buff - 2 T Def<BR>Toughness<BR>Hunker Down</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concentration Defense 7 T Def<BR>Intervene<BR>Soldiers Stance<BR>Allay<BR>Entrench<BR>Dig In<BR>fortified stance<BR>Anchor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Multiple Target AOE 5 D Off<BR>Assault<BR>Bury<BR>Topple<BR>Taunting assualt <BR>Tremor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group Buff Offensive 2.5 D Off <BR>Call to arms<BR>Guardians Call<BR>*Call to Battle (Mixed .5)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group Buff Defensive 8.5 T def<BR>Rallying cry<BR>Battle tactics<BR>Call of Command<BR>Battlecry<BR>Escape Skill <BR>*Call to Battle (Mixed .5)<BR>Call of Protection<BR>Commanding Presence<BR>Guardian Sphere</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Single Target Buff Def - 4 T Def<BR>Iron Will<BR>Do or Die<BR>Iron Convition<BR>Return to Battle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Single Target Buff Off 1 D Off<BR>Desperate Flurry</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defense buff Special 6 T Def<BR>Stand Firm<BR>Sentinal<BR>Never Surrender<BR>Safe Guard<BR>Vigilance<BR>Sentry</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Off 39.5 <BR>Def 34.5 <BR>--------<BR>Tank - 39.5<BR>DPS - 34.5</DIV>

[Opa]

So vs. a Guardian we're looking basically like this: +6 offensive arts -6 defensive arts Out of totals around 75. Some of those are shared of course (all the fighter skills). I'll look at brigand skills. <div></div>

[Redbed]

<DIV>But if you look at the tanking vs dps criteria, those #s are reversed, due mostly to taunts.</DIV>

[Opa]

<div></div>Here's my workthrough on a brigand. I think my point makes itself.<b><font size="3">Utility, 16 total (includes snares)</font></b><p><font size="1">Tracking Sneak Pathfinding Ensnare Smuggle Snoop Smuggler’s Talent Tie Up Burgle Escape Snarl Craven Walk Snag Stealthy Burglary Tangle Lurk</font></p><p><!-- [if !supportEmptyParas] --><font size="1"> </font><!-- [endif] --></p><font color="#cc0000" size="6">Attack/Debuff, 49 total</font><p><font size="1">Quick Strike Sneak Attack Cheap Shot Ambush Backstab Quick Flurry Rash Advance Circular Strike Bludgeon Gouge Strangling Shot Distracting Blade Rake Ruse Tangling Strike Black Jack Knockaround Hidden Shiv Vicious Flurry Risky Advance Restitution Disarming Thrust Vicious Stab Low Blow Maddening Shot Shank Bum Rush Vicious Rake Bushwhack Sap Mug Craven Delight Aggravated Assault Deceit Daring Advance Forceful Negotiation Concealed Blade Waylay Desperate Thrust Dirty Blow Blunted Arrows Shiv Gambit Murderous Rake Run Through Debilitate Subdue Wrangle Disable</font></p><p><b>Defensive, Tanking, ETC, 8 total</b></p><p><font size="1">Street Smarts (AGI, STR buff) Fancy Footwork (+parry) Cuss (taunt) Knave (FF line) Rough Skin (SS line) Upbraid (taunt) Aegis (SS line) Blackguard (FF line)</font></p><p><b>Deagro, 6 total</b></p><p><font size="1">Evade Self-Preservation Beg for Mercy Lie Low Plead for Mercy<span>Shadow Slip</span></font></p><div></div>

[Opa]

<div></div>Any how, in your bruiser work up, I think you should add the self heal line to TANK. But there's no need to get super touchy about all the specifics. Here's my point: Brigands, one of the more tankish scouts from what I hear, have 50 attacks/debuffs to 10 tank-ish skills (49 and 8, to be exact). And if anything I was being generous calling a +AGI buff tank-ish. In a CLEARLY dps class, attacks/debuffs out number defensive skills 5 to 1. Even taking your bruiser numbers (which I think are a little on the dps-heavy tanking-light side, we're looking at a ratio of something like 40:25. Your guardian work up had the dps/tank thing split at 34.5. So, let me do a simple restatement of what we have here. Let's look just at dps vs. tanking (we can leave FD, sneak, etc. out of the picture). *I used the same rounded numbers as above. <font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00"> Guardian: 50% tank skills, 50% dps skills.</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00"> Bruiser: 38% tank skills; 62% dps skills.</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00"> Brigand: 17% tank skills; 83% dps skills.</font> I think this says it pretty clearly. Our skills are tilted more towards dps than a guardian...which seems to make sense. But the % of dps skills we have compared to brigands, a clear dps class, is far, far lower. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Opaki on <span class=date_text>06-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 AM</span>

[kildarn]

<DIV>Well at 46 I was invited to a raid on King Tranax or whatever his name is.  The guy through the instanced zone in CL.  The guild that let me tag along threw up a parser at the end of the raid and I parsed at second behind a 50 wizzy with 118.7dps.  I'm pretty well equipped armor and weapon wise with almost all rare imbued items.  All my skills are at adept 1 with no adept 3 or higher so pretty average in that department.  There was almost 4 full groups of people and I the majority of the toons were 48-50.  Granted this was only 1 raid but it said a lot as to where bruisers stand in the dps line to me.  However, even if I were 50 there is no way on earth I could have tanked that mob.  I woulda been toast within the first 30-45 seconds whereas the 50 guardian did very well and obviously was meant to tank that type of stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is that we are currently much more set up to dps then to tank on bigger things.  Regardless of skill counts and all of that it's just a simple matter of hp/mitigation/avoidance differences and the ways in which each is used for a higher level encounter.  There is no way a bruiser/monk could tank one of those via avoidance.  Even if I took all the raid buffs I might be able to get up to around 6500hps.  With a 38% mitigation I would maybe be able to absorb 2 hits before being wiped out.  I could only hope that I get hit maybe once every 20 seconds or so but against a 54^^^x4 I'm kinda doubting I would be that lucky.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we're supposed to be tanks first and foremost then the avoidance figure needs some serious re-tooling by the devs.  If we're supposed to be dps (which obviously is not what they intend) then I think we do a pretty good job at it.  I'm happy with either and currently love the way we are set up.  I can understand the complaints of some classes like assasins that should be out damaging us but aren't.  If we get hit with the nerf bat on dps then I would only hope a serious change to our tanking ability will come with it.</DIV>

[Opa]

<DIV>This is just becoming a thread of increasing randomness. My point with all that skill counting was this: our skills do NOT tell a convincing tale that we were meant to be DPS and not tanks. If anything, it's the contrary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, Zalak can be tanked by a bruiser at 50. But it's just not efficient. But that doesn't prove we weren't meant to be raid tanks, it only proves that we're not very good ones yet, which is hopefully part of what's changing.</DIV>

[xfbishop]

<DIV>here is the issue with opaki's theory:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its been stated that even after the combat changes we will be the weakest tanks(guard, pali, sk, zerk, monk, bruiser i believe) this means in my opinion that in a raid situation we will be picked only if your guild cannot come up with another tank of any sort.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>givin this i think the people that want the combat changes are shooting themselves in the foot.</DIV>

[Opa]

<span><blockquote><hr>xfbishop wrote:<div>here is the issue with opaki's theory:</div> <div> </div> <div>its been stated that even after the combat changes we will be the weakest tanks(guard, pali, sk, zerk, monk, bruiser i believe) this means in my opinion that in a raid situation we will be picked only if your guild cannot come up with another tank of any sort.</div> <div> </div> <div>givin this i think the people that want the combat changes are shooting themselves in the foot.</div><hr></blockquote>Well, I'd say I'm counting my eggs before they're hatched, but that's just a preference of metaphor. Anyway, you make a fair point. They have said that. They have also said the combat changes are in part an attempt to emphasize archetype roles. But as for your specific point, I'd respond something like this: "Ability to tank" is not some monolithic thing. Lots of things go into it: mitigation, avoidence, agro. I'm not saying, or suggesting, that we'll ever be the most "general" usage tanks. That will always be guardians. But what I do think should/could happen is something a little more specific. There should be encounters that favor certain "styles" of tanks, and there should be raid strategies that do too. As it is now, it's all about HP and mitigation when it comes to raids. But there could be raid mobs that ignore armor, there could/should be a tweak so that raid mobs don't hit brawlers as high a percentage of the time, we could get more HPs. And finally, it's not as if things are ever settled. There will be tweaks on and on for the rest of the game. My position isn't so much about what's going to happen, as what I am arguing should happen.</span><div></div>

[xfbishop]

ill agree with ya on the tanking ability not being just because you picked a specific subclass, ive made other fighter classes sit out becuase they sucked, at least one of them a guardian. i dont want anyone to think that im one of the people that think we are strictly a dps class, that imo is not playing the class to the fullest. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the one thing that worries me is just what i said before, tanking raids is always pretty much going to be done by the class with the best skillset for the job, and the way the game is setup that is a guardian and unless the combat system completely revamps all of our skills and combat arts that isnt going to change. most of the guards that are tanking raids are pretty good at playing thier respective class anyway, not just some [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] in a pickup group with app4 taunts.</DIV><p>Message Edited by xfbishop on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>