The Bruisers role is High damage output

[lordofdrago]

I've played a bruiser to 36 so far; I played a monk in EQ 1 for years before that. I started playing EQ2 with certain preconceived ideas about the role of a bruiser. I thought our role was primarily to pull while controlling the number of mobs coming into camp using FD (Splitting) and second as DPS. It didn't take long to figure out that the old days of "splitting" groups of mobs was long gone. Our old primary role was gone. I also learned quickly FD wasn't nearly as reliable as it was in EQ 1. Based my preconceived notions of classes and things posted on boards like this one, I assumed that most or all scouts would out DPS us. I also assumed that most in not all casters out DPS us as well. I don’t even need to mention how people cry like school girls about bruisers not being able to tank.Needless to say I was starting to wonder what the point was… Until in the 30s I started parsing our damage.Bruisers are THE death dealers.Rarely do I get out DPS’d on a single target. Yes, wizards and zerkers seem to out damage me on groups. On a single target though? I absolutely smoke all other class almost all of the time. I’ve been using combatstats (members.cox.net/combatstats) for the last 20 hours or more online with many different groups in The Enchanted Land, Zek, Runneye and Rivervale. Many time on some of the named mobs in Runneye that have 17K HP, I will do 7k and the next highest person will do 4 or 5k.People are soooo wrong about scouts, specifically, predators. Bear in mind that I’ve only grouped with 4 or 5 scouts in the last 20 hours of so online that were my level or higher. From what I’ve seen, assassins seem to do more than rangers, so I will only talk about assassins. Assassins can hit for 1200+, yes. If you use combatstats with the mini-window over your quest helper area, you can watch real-time graphics on the groups damage done, damage taken and DPS. Assassins can get a big jump in front on their first attack. However, Haymaker (200+), Sucker Punch (200+), Grapple (200-350+), One Hundred Hand Slap (400-500+), Blitz and the other kicks can all hit for over 150. It doesn’t take me that long to catch up and exceed the damage done by predators. A good wizard can out damage us. Here the problem for wizards though, once they get argo on a red 2up mob, they go down like an intern. I watched a wizard just last night pull out in front of me in damage done. The 38 MT was around 1400, I (36 brusier) was around 2300 and the 36 wizard hit 2700 when he got argo. I told him what happen after he got a res. When we get argo, tank the mob, use Bob and Weave, use Ignore Hurt if needed, maybe Eye Gouge and Fierce Punch and continue beating the mob like a rented mule.I’m the 4th highest bruiser on Oasis, I’ve spoken with the higher level bruisers and they all report basically the same thing, they always lead their groups in damage. This was a great concern to me at first. I thought for sure that bruisers would get nerfed. Then some things dawned on me. Yes, we out damage scouts. Is that fair? Yes, because scouts get sneak, track, disarm and the all mighty evac. Evac alone is worth a lot of DPS and evac alone will get you into groups. Good wizards can out damage us often, they just need a good taunting main tank, they get invis and they get evac at 38, so that seems fair as well.Based on what I’ve seen the bottom is this: Bruisers bring only 1 thing to the table, obscene amounts of damage. FD isn’t worth much, we can’t invis, track, evac, heal, do good AoE damage or tank as well as guardians, beserkers, paladins, shadow knights or monks. We tank better than the 18 classes. Our damage output is lewd though. A well equipped and well played Bruiser will do far more damage on average than any over class except monks, which are still behind us, and very well played wizards. This is true even if you they are 1 or 2 levels above you.As a related suggestion: Bruisers should stop crying like school girls about tanking. We excel above all others at the DPS role and are acceptable at tanking, better than most. We should never be primary tank in the first place. It would be unfair for me to out damage a plate wearer my level by 30% or more and expect to tank as well.I would be curious to know if anyone over level 30 has seen anything different.Balance BlackRain, 36 Half-Elf Bruiser – Oasis<p>Message Edited by lordofdragons on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>lordofdragons wrote:We should never be primary tank in the first place<hr></blockquote>Lots of bla bla in your post, and this is just the punch line for stupidity, and serves nothing but to further increase the difficulty for those of us who play the class as it's intended, to get groups as tanks, and not primary damage dealers. We tank just fine with 1 healer, you don't need two healers in groups or a "real" tank aka plate tank, so sick of that phrase.I'm also sick of the two healer/group concept, I can tank permafrost just fine at 43 with 1 healer. Groups that must have 2 healers is just sup-par players in my opinion.

[lordofdrago]

Jezekiell, here is the part that I don't understand. Bruisers are described as a damage dealing class. The very name BRUISER, implies damage output. From my data, I see that Bruisers are one of the best, if not the best damage dealing class. That is in line with the describtion. I have very happy with bruiser right now.Why would anyone that understands game balance expect one of the highest damage dealing classes to also be able to tank as well as classes that do less damage and offer nothing more than we do?Why would anyone play a guardian for example, if we do 30% more damage and tank nearly as well?We can't be great tanks AND high damage. EQ will never, ever work that way. The game, like life itself, is about give and take. You want to be the best tank, be a guardian. You want to do the best damage, be a bruiser. It's not that hard to understand. It's only hard when people want everything in one class. I'm truly don't mean to belittle any problems that you see in the bruiser class, however, having lived though years of class "balancing" in EQ1 I know that it is not a resonable expectation. We all have to decide what is important to us based on our play style and desires.Note: The tone of my post was to convery information that I've recorded. Information that makes me happy, information that I hope will make others happy ane make clear the role of the bruiser. Most of the posts on this board are people complaining about what they CAN'T do and why CAN'T do it. I'm tell people what they CAN do and what they CAN be the best at.

[lordofdrago]

Jezekiell, 2nd thing. I never said we couldn't tank. I only said that we aren't the best. That being the cases, I prefer to focus on what I excel at to the benefit of the group, instead trying to do what I'm not good at at the expense of the group. Guardians and bezerkers surely make better tanks that us most of the time. Are you saying otherwise?As for the 2 healer group vs 1 healer group thing, 2 healers are better than 1 groups for these simple reasons:The major functions in a group are tanking, healing and DPS. Every function needs to have more than one person to fill the role if need be. If you only have 1 healer, what happens if EQ crashes (Yeah, that never happens I know), their ISP drops, their kid screams in the background and they go AFK without warning, what if the healer gets stifled, feared, stunned, charmed, lost or otherwise can't cast? What if the healer had Taco Bell last night, goes AFK and the group gets popped on? What happens after 6 hours of play and the reaction time of the only healer simply slows down? At least up to 36, I can't see going any place hard with 1 healer. I've never been to Permafrost, so maybe you can make do in Permafrost with 1 healer.

[D]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>lordofdragons wrote:</P> <DIV>We can't be great tanks AND high damage.<BR></DIV> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Any fighter has the potential to be a great tank with personal skill and a well balanced team.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Daran]

Tank = FighterFighter = BrawlerBrawler = BruiserthereforeBruiser = tankIf you thought of this in any other way.....your wrong plain and simple. If this sounds mean or curt in anyway i apoligize profusely but I keep seeing the same messages come up about how bruisers shouldnt be tanks and its just plain wrong.Perhaps the reason why bruisers are dealing out high damage is due to perhaps other classes being broken. Perhaps Bruisers (and monks) are the only ones that are working as intended.I am a bruiser, I am also a brigand. I have yet to see my bruiser pop a mob in the face for 600+ damage. I have yet to see him stack up 100pts of DoT damage without breaking a sweat, while meleeing for an average hit of 12-17 (eyeball numbers)at a delay of 1.2. More importantly I've yet to see him track, snare, evac, smuggle, 'flip the coin', or debuff... not to mention the line of stuns (that are in my opinion broken).As a brigand I can spam 100-200dmg attacks until the cows come home without even bending my power bar. My bruiser can burn through his power if i try in one fight. If i notice a significant change as i level up these two classes then perhaps my veiw will shift. But at the moment I'm quite happy with my ability to tank. Because thats the point.I am a bruiser, and I'll be your fighter this evening and if another fighter wants to be the main tank, they're gonna have to prove they can do it better than me.

[lordofdrago]

DaranHB,3 thing:One, what levels are the characters that you are comparing?Two, the find that the MT often runs out of power before me unless I'm using summoned or vendor water.Three, again, I NEVER SAID or IMPLIED that brusier can't tank. I stick with the state that it is not our first role. The functions of a tank are to hold the mobs attention and to take the beating for everyone else. Plate wearers rely on mitigration, damage mitigation has nothing to do with the number of mobs or their position. We rely of deflection, deflection doesn't work well with large numbers of mobs or mobs behind you. So on multiple mobs, we may take more damage than a plate tank. Often there is no way around it, you can't always reposition.Below I have outlined some of the differences in skills between Guardians and Bruisers. You can clearly see that Guardians have skills better suited to defense of the group and holding the argo of an entire group of enemies than Bruisers. They will be better than we will be in most cases to get and maintain encounter argo. The skill summary appears to show that we are ok with 1 mob but may have trouble with groups. My tanking experience bears this out for me. I can hold argo for 1 mob as well as any one, I have trouble holding argo for 4 orange mobs though, not to mention I seem to take a beating.Skills that generate AoE hate: Guardian 4, Bruiser 2Skills that absorb damage for allys: Guardian 4, Bruiser 0Skills that block damage for allys: Guardian 3, Bruisers 2Aoe attacks: Guardians 4, Bruiser 2Hate increasing skills (Single and AOE): Guardian 5, Bruiser 6Skills that increase group defense: Guardian 1, Bruiser 0Skills that increase group armor class: Guardian 2, Bruiser 0If someone can make statements with some sort of fact as to why Bruisers can tank as well as anyone else, I'd love to hear it. Mostly, I hear emotion or people basing their opinions on statements from Sony. After nearly 6 years, I've learned not take everything Sony states at face value. I have several MB of log files to show I came to the consulsions about our role as DPS. I have the skills list to show how I conclude that others classes manage argo than us and those same class defend again multiple enemies better than us. Does anyone have anything concrete to show why we do make better tanks than guardians or bezerkers?

[cprochal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> People are soooo wrong about scouts, specifically, predators. Bear in mind that I’ve only grouped with 4 or 5 scouts in the last 20 hours of so online that were my level or higher. From what I’ve seen, assassins seem to do more than rangers, so I will only talk about assassins. Assassins can hit for 1200+, yes. If you use combatstats with the mini-window over your quest helper area, you can watch real-time graphics on the groups damage done, damage taken and DPS. Assassins can get a big jump in front on their first attack. However, Haymaker (200+), Sucker Punch (200+), Grapple (200-350+), One Hundred Hand Slap (400-500+), Blitz and the other kicks can all hit for over 150. It doesn’t take me that long to catch up and exceed the damage done by predators. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I really wish I were on your server or you on mine so I can show you how my attacks stack up to your just as well - minus the one hit I do for 1200 plus.  I'm a 34 assassin and I guarantee I will exceed your dps on some of those parses you compare us to those 4 or 5 scouts in the last 20 hours.  My point is that you like many other people think we have one big hit and the rest of our specials don't compare with yours.  Let me list my hits like you did yours.  My Elaa's perforating strike (my big one hitter ~wink) does anywhere from 650 to 1200 on average.  My high is 1306 which is #5 on Lucan.  This is my training skill equal to adept 2 Assassin's Blade.  This is on a shorter timer 225 sec as oppose to 5 minutes.</P> <P> My specials that I consider my bread and butter are Ebon Blade (300 to 700, reduces piercing resistance), Poisoner's Blade (150 - 300, poison resistance dbuff), Slice Throat (150 - 300, stifles target), Deadly shot (two back to back shots for 80 - 200 each), Cloaked Barbed (300 - 500), Insidious Cut (100 +, defense and slashing dbuff), this list does not include the multitude of other debuffs and melee hitters I have that can do over 75 +.   This also does not count my poison damage which we proc a lot.   My skills are all adept 1 and Ebon Blade is adept III.  I'm showing you this because you mention it doesn't take long for you to catch up.  You make it sound like we do our dmg at the start and the rest is mediocre dmg allowing you to catch up - wrong.  I do most of my damage in the middle all the way to the end.  At the start I go easy on the gas pedal due to allowing the MT to build agro so I can do the dmg I'm created for.  </P> <P>I'd love to be able to parse against you on a 38 mob even with giving you the 2 level gap.  I'd hold my own and then some.  </P> <P>I'm not going to say anything about the post 40 game given I cannot speak except from heresay on that.  </P><p>Message Edited by cprochal on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[cprochal]

Double post - bleh.<p>Message Edited by cprochal on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[EQ2Adam]

<DIV>It's funny to hear noobs spew their not-so-informative information on a public forum when they have very limited experience as a bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just because we (bruisers) fall under the Figher archetype does not mean we can tank as well as a guardian or a shadow knight.  We have considerably higher DPS than guardians and shadow knights, if we could tank equally as well we would be extremely over powered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do bruisers make good MAIN tanks?  NO.  We're a bigger mana sink than plate wearing tank classes.  Can we act as a secondary tank, and do well if we steal aggro?  YES!  With the mend ability, and high dodging / blocking, we do very well with aggro as long as it's short to medium duration.  At level 46 we get an ability that can be cast on another player which grants 1300+ defense and added agility.  When I give this buff to an SK or Guardian he tanks 10 times better than I ever could.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A bruisers role is to deal damage.  We can tank small encounters, or mobs below our level, but I guarantee you'll never see a bruiser tanking Vox or other raid encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a level 50 bruiser on Najena.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[lordofdrago]

You sound like you know what you doing and that makes a big difference, I wish we could group together. Regardless of which of us had the high DPS, I bet we'd have a great time. I have kind of charted things out below. It's certainly not perfect but does show faster recyling of Bruiser skills.Assassin Skill (Recyle time in seconds)Ebon blade (60) 300-700 + reduce PiercePoisoner's Blade (10) 150-300 + reduce poisonSlice Throat (60) 150-300 + StiffleDeadly Shot (20) 80-200Cloaked Barb (60)(300-500Insidious Cut(20) 100 + defense debuffBruiser Skill (Recyle time in seconds)Haymaker Ap3 (60) 120-200 + Knock downSucker Punch Ap3(60) 120-200Grapple Ad1 (30) 150-370 + StunOne Hundred Hand Slap Ad1 (30) 400-560Break Through Ad1(15) 120-250 + Increase damageBlitz Ad1(10) 80 - 150Flying Kick Ap3(10) 90 - 160On first pass through based on high damage, you will do 1900 if I exclude backshot. I can't use a ranged weapon in close combat, I assume the same for you, I would do 1890.After that, notice that my skills tend recycle faster. In a fight that lasts less than 1 minute, my 10 second skills (blitz and flying kick) do more damage than poisoners blade.My Break Through exceeds Insidious cut, then I follow up with another Grapple and One Hundred Hand Slap.

[lordofdrago]

<blockquote><hr>EQ2Adam wrote:<DIV>It's funny to hear noobs spew their not-so-informative information on a public forum when they have very limited experience as a bruiser.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Just because we (bruisers) fall under the Figher archetype does not mean we can tank as well as a guardian or a shadow knight. We have considerably higher DPS than guardians and shadow knights, if we could tank equally as well we would be extremely over powered.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Do bruisers make good MAIN tanks? NO. We're a bigger mana sink than plate wearing tank classes. Can we act as a secondary tank, and do well if we steal aggro? YES! With the mend ability, and high dodging / blocking, we do very well with aggro as long as it's short to medium duration. At level 46 we get an ability that can be cast on another player which grants 1300+ defense and added agility. When I give this buff to an SK or Guardian he tanks 10 times better than I ever could. </div><DIV> </div><DIV>A bruisers role is to deal damage. We can tank small encounters, or mobs below our level, but I guarantee you'll never see a bruiser tanking Vox or other raid encounters.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>I'm a level 50 bruiser on Najena.</div><DIV> </div><DIV> </div><hr></blockquote>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[LadySyl]

" but I guarantee you'll never see a bruiser tanking Vox or other raid encounters."The bruisers who have tanked and killed high end raid encounters (sparse as they are) disagree.

[cprochal]

<DIV>LordofDragon - we could compare the stats and even embelish the numbers but really without parses to compare or fighting next to each other it's all guesstimates.  I'd even imagine that the dps would flip flop given the situation and I'm completely fine by that.  But I'm just setting things straight with the notion, and you only touched on it, that assassin's rely so much on their ONE really big hitter and the rest is mediocre.  We rely on our other skills to really take us to higher averages.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bow attacks I use just about every fight with Feyiron arrows.  It's just a matter of stepping back 4 to 5 feet and you can fire a bow, very rare that I cannot use, even in very tight situations.  At one time I'd of told you using my bow was a waste for close quarter fighting when I was in my late 20's but after having realized the dmg addition I can kick out from that I've changed my tactics.  Also, what your not adding in is our poisons.  That is a huge dps addition which your not showing.  That alone can account for 10 to 15 percent more dps.  I really hope post-40 they truly did fix the poison bug where poisons don't work otherwise I can see us falling consitently below bruisers and zerkers in dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that the fact that we're even having these comparison's show's how both our classes truly are great at dps.  I have no problem sharing dps with other classes.  I just want everyone to be clear that assassin's, or the good ones, don't blow their load in a burst and then go to sleep.</DIV>

[EQ2Adam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LadySylvi wrote:<BR>" but I guarantee you'll never see a bruiser tanking Vox or other raid encounters."<BR><BR>The bruisers who have tanked and killed high end raid encounters (sparse as they are) disagree.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You just like to argue for the sake of arguing.  What do you want, a parser to log heals to see which classes tank more efficiently?  A bruiser in defensive not only requires more healing power, it also lowers bruiser DPS. 

[lordofdrago]

<blockquote><hr>cprochal wrote:<DIV>LordofDragon - we could compare the stats and even embelish the numbers but really without parses to compare or fighting next to each other it's all guesstimates. I'd even imagine that the dps would flip flop given the situation and I'm completely fine by that. But I'm just setting things straight with the notion, and you only touched on it, that assassin's rely so much on their ONE really big hitter and the rest is mediocre. We rely on our other skills to really take us to higher averages. </div><DIV> </div><DIV>The bow attacks I use just about every fight with Feyiron arrows. It's just a matter of stepping back 4 to 5 feet and you can fire a bow, very rare that I cannot use, even in very tight situations. At one time I'd of told you using my bow was a waste for close quarter fighting when I was in my late 20's but after having realized the dmg addition I can kick out from that I've changed my tactics. Also, what your not adding in is our poisons. That is a huge dps addition which your not showing. That alone can account for 10 to 15 percent more dps. I really hope post-40 they truly did fix the poison bug where poisons don't work otherwise I can see us falling consitently below bruisers and zerkers in dps.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>I think that the fact that we're even having these comparison's show's how both our classes truly are great at dps. I have no problem sharing dps with other classes. I just want everyone to be clear that assassin's, or the good ones, don't blow their load in a burst and then go to sleep.</div><hr></blockquote>I totally agree!*MY* Results to date have been that Bruisers, followed by monks tend to out damage all others mos tof the time on single enounters. I would not at all be surprised to see a good assassin with good gear out DPS bruisers. However, all things being equal, I expect to see bruisers out damage assassins between level 30 and 36. I have 26 MB of logs to support that. What I have that most people making posts is something, anything concrete. I see a lot of people posts that are negative or false, with nothing to support their statements but their opinions or some statement made by some guy 2 months before EQ2 even went live. Everyone elses milage may very.PS: If anyone knows an assassin my level on Oasis that wants to try out my DPS theory, send him/her my way.

[cprochal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lordofdragons wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cprochal wrote:<BR> <DIV>LordofDragon - However, all things being equal, I expect to see bruisers out damage assassins between level 30 and 36.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR><BR>Actually all things being equal I think it would be the other way around with assassin's out damaging the bruiser.  :smileyvery-happy: Just making sure your clear where I'm coming from.</P> <P>I'm thinking that your the exception at lvl 36 as the bruiser doing all that outdamaging via your parses.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[lordofdrago]

I think that it is fair from a game play perspecitive that bruisers out damage assassin due to the fact that assassins have track, sneak, and evac. Evac alone will get you into a group. As much as I hate to say it, Bruisers don't bring much to the party except DPS. We aren't the best tanks (My opinion.. and most other non bruisers) and we have no other skills useful to a group. Unless you count the ability to FD during a wipe and then using a feather to res a healer.<p>Message Edited by lordofdragons on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 PM</span>

[D]

<DIV>I'm tanking mobs 3-5 levels higher than me as we speak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healers have enough mana to take 3 consecutive fights without a rest. I don't see anything wrong with me tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Dvt on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:36 PM</span>

[Miyu-Lega]

First off, just because someone can level to 50 does not mean they have a grasp on the game's mechanics. EQ1 proved anyone could hit max level given enough time investment. Second, any Brusier who thinks we are secondary tanks or shouldn't tank at all needs to learn a bit more about their class. I can tank red double up mobs in RE and not even have the one healer in group expend 30% of their power. There are 2 primary parts to being a solid tank, 1 is keeping gear and skills up to par, 2 is teaching your healers how to properly heal a brusier. We are tanks through and through. The fact we also outdps scouts and casters WILL be rebalanced, and if you think otherwise you need a reality check.

[LordMun]

<DIV>35 Warlock on Blackburrow.  I'll give 10 gold to any class my lvl or lower that can out parse my damage on any ^^ pull.  I'll back this brag with cash.. any class.. wiz, assassin, bruiser.. whatever.</DIV>

[Moski]

<DIV>i read the whole thread</DIV> <DIV>i am a bruiser myself</DIV> <DIV>i am not stoopid and i know my skills and use them </DIV> <DIV>i tank in exp groups </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>never ever i could sign that a bruiser tanks equal to any plate class</DIV> <DIV>(and i am not whining about it, cause i am great dps to be balanced)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why do i think i am not tanking as well as a tank class?</DIV> <DIV>cause of experience</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the experience is based on exp pick up groups and guild groups (with skilled players)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>everytime when i am grouping with a plate tank and the plate tank is the MT for the group (and doing fine with one healer) and i have to tank (casue of a add or the MT beeing afk or LD) the healer needs more mana to keep me alive. (regardless of the healer type - same with inquisitors, templars, warden, fury, defiler or mystic). And yes i am using all the skills given to me (Bouncer, Battle Fury etc.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybee its just me (and i doubt it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ) but do u never get hit for 1.600+ damage ?  I do. Not regularly but i do. I have never ever seen a guardian that gets hit für 1.600+ damage. Now u will say: use ur self-heal. I do - i have the an adept2 - lower retimer (60sec) Training and it heals 1k+ damage (depends on buffs and total hp). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But there are several Situations i remember when i got a lucky punch from mob_001 i used the self-heal and got other hits that nearly killed me. self-heal is great to deal with damage spikes - but it is still a skill that needs to be triggered with a recast time 60-90 sec.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And theres the great difference between us and plate tanks.</DIV> <DIV>To become a MT that tanks close (not as good as!) to a plate class we have to use skills. we have to use several skills. Most of them are triggered and last for 30sec to 3min. Most of them have recast timer larger then the skill lasts. And the worst of all - we need casttime and Power to use skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For Example: A Plate Tank is MT. Your group is in a balanced (or higher) area. Your group is doing fine. Now and then u get some add`s. The Plate Tank only needs some Power to Taunt Adds. His tanking ability is first of all his armor. he can tank without any power (well some for taunting) and he dont needs any casting time to tank well. he just stands there and takes the hits.</DIV> <DIV>The brawler hast to use skills (u cant tank without Battle Fury - Bob and Weave - Eye Gounge - whatever). The Breawler has to have power to use the skills. the brawler needs time to cast the skills. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I remember a lot of Situations where i was (after 2 or 3 battles) out of power and some mobs spawned, added etc. </DIV> <DIV>First of all: The Add or Spawn will beat me at least once or twice till my defensive skills are casted. </DIV> <DIV>Second. Hopefully the enounter is killed in 30 sec or the defensive Skills ran out and i still have to tank the encounter</DIV> <DIV>Third: I am out of power = bad - i cant taunt AND use defensive skills (to tank) - the plate class casts ae-taunt and thats it. They dont need cast time to tank. they dont need power to tank. </DIV> <DIV>(i guess u get the point)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not saying i cant tank. I do tank. But i would never say i do as well as a plate class. I do fine in exp groups. But Plate Classes do better. </DIV> <DIV>To balance that i do much more damage. And thats fine with me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i totally agree with the original Poster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Moski]

<DIV>sorry double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Moskito on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 PM</span>

[Oidan]

<DIV>The only time you are going to outdamage a scout is when they are not playing there class right or just being lazy. People dont realise poison damage potential or their bow atks. I see a lot of scouts in pick up grps not using their bow skills /boggle. You would think by the mid 30's folks would know how to play their class but you will still come across folks who dont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A well played Bruiser will not out perform a well played scout in the DPS dept.</DIV>

[lordofdrago]

Please show me data to support your position that we tank well.Please show ANY DATA or LOGIC, other than your opinion to support the opinion "Bruiser should be primary tank".Can you show it on a damage taken parse? Maybe, I have yet to do this.Can you show that deflection makes for better tanks than mitigation? No, mitigation is better for a MT because mob will beat you from all angles.Can you show that we have Taunts as good as other classes? No, for sure other classes get more AND better taunts.By the way, a statement from the PR guy doesn't count.Tanks need to hold argo. Show me the data that says we hold argo better than guardians. I've tanked Red 2up in Runneye too. 1 2up isn't to bad, just costs more pwoer for the healers. Can you hold argo when you pull miners and 6 miners up into camp? Can you hold argo when 2 wizards start AoEing? Guardians and Zerker do it well. Our AoE skills just aren't up to par with theirs.Tanks need to take a beating. One one mob, again we are ok, not great but ok. Using the example above, when the 6 yellow or orange goblins run into camp, they can be all over. Correct me if I'm wrong but defelction works poorly when mobs are flanking or behind you? Heavy armor mitigation works the same. Your damage taken will increase greatly with 2 goblins beating you in bank while you turn to taunt of one on the healer. Sinc eyou are now taking more damage, the healers have to heal more, thereby generating more argo and making the whole encounter harder for you to manage.I'm not tryign to be combative. I do like a do conversation that makes me think. I don't even mind being wrong if I can learn something. The problem is that many people get emotional and make statements with ZERO supporting facts, data or even logic.Does anyone have ANYTHING that supports the case for us to be primary tank?

[Vorham]

<P>Well, after a long night of exp in Nektulos at lvl 21 as main tank for my group let me share some observations.</P> <P> We did grouped mobs: treants, spiders, and owlbears, Paddlefoot, and Jereth Blackshield. I was also back up tank in ED against contagious rats for AQ, which I had to tank a few times after the MT bought it..</P> <P> I tanked Jereth Blackshield, only 3 man group for him. 21 bru, 22 shm, 22 [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Fight went smoothly, ran low on power near end and it was kinda close, but wasn't really any risk of death once NPC blew it's initial scout dps abilities. NPC avoided a lot of my dmg special attacks. Plus I burned mana taunting. </P> <P>Contagious rats in ED, lvl 21-23^^ mobs, tanked a few from 50% life. 4 man group, zerk, bru, defiler, [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], lvl 21-22... did ok, when tanking DPS went to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e. My DPS was a lot lower while I was "tanking" the mobs than if I was in "DPS" mode from the rear... mainly because I spent a lot of time taunting, changing targets, and group buffing (and less time worrying about clicking a DMG combat art the exact second it popped up) to [Removed for Content] mobs off and keep 'em off the healers while the 2 assassins gave them a good [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] pounding. </P> <P>Plus the fact that a lot of Combat Arts are flat out blocked, riposted, or parried while facing the mob. </P> <P>I tanked Paddlefoot also, he was yellow^^.. ended up dying at 1% because healers were OOP but the assassins finished him off, they were near oop also. Same 5 man group. 2 [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], 1 bru, 1 defiler, 1 warden. </P> <P>So far it seems like it's an either/or situation... You can tank, but kiss that nice DPS good-bye, and you still might get owned if you get a couple of bad avoidance rolls or ripostes, or you can "DPS" from the side/rear and watch a lot of combat arts land... but then you aren't tanking. I didn't parse any of this, so no exact number or %, just going by how it "felt" when certain classes joined and which roles I played. </P> <P>These are just observations from a lower level Bruiser. No idea how it is later on.</P><p>Message Edited by Vorham on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:35 AM</span>

[benisbor]

<DIV>I'm a hypocrite for saying this, as I made many similar posts myself at lower levels: don't post this stuff unless you know what you're talking about, to put it most bluntly. This post is riddled with baseless assertions that fly in the face of every intelligent and well defended post that has been seen on both the Bruiser *and* the Priest forums. I'm a level 50 Bruiser, and can say without reservation that our class, when played correctly, out-tanks any other. The Brawler is, from my experience, an *amazing* tank post-40. I walked into Everfrost at level 42 and was forcing the healers to use half the mana they had been using on our level 46 Guardian only 10 minutes before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, most of this probably makes no sense to you. You're thinking, "What? He must be joking." No, the truth of the matter is, you've made a grave miscalculation in labelling the Bruiser as solely a damage dealer -- we are, as Moorgard as very accurately defined us, tanks before anything else. We tank JUST as well as plate classes, but in a different manor. They get hit with a steady stream of damage while we barely ever get hit with anything, occasionally being beaten for a large amount (which is no problem when immediately followed up by a one minute refresh mend). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also played a Monk in EQ1, as I'm sure did many of your target audience in these forums. I would recommend that you sit tight, calm down, and play your class for few more levels, then come back and post again. <STRONG>This post is an insult to every level 50 brawler in my guild that has tanked Groupx4 ^^^ level 54 Mobs that hit for 4,000 damage, and done it better than any warrior could've.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, for reference, I'd like everyone on these forums to please check out the Priest Forum. Go to Priest Archtype. There, I have posted a thread called "The Priest's Misconception," which addresses the common and ignorant assumption that Brawler's cannot tank. It has aroused quite a conversation.</DIV><p>Message Edited by benisbored on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:38 AM</span>

[Grypon]

<DIV>Just thought i would point out that fighters of any type were billed to be the melee dps in eq2, scout were supposed to be utility and would not match a fighters dps.  That is what was intended according to devs before release, whether or not its true is another issue.  I really dont know why people are so surprised that fighter classes would be able to do good dps.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[benisbor]

<DIV>Grypon, you're correct. But the question really isn't whether we'd do high dps. I think everyone on the forums knows that Bruisers dish out some serious damage. The issue here is proving to people who refuse to open their eyes that BRUISERS ARE TANKS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, I don't really know how to illustrate this for you effectively. You will see what I'm talking about very shortly. I really don't know the state of other servers well, but I can say that on my server, the Brawlers reign in every zone as clearly superior tanks, and I have no qualms in saying that. </DIV>

[Paradoxcl]

<DIV>I haven't really bothered reading through all these posts but i figured i should share some of my experiences with bruisers as tanks/dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am currently lvl 49 and the second highest bruiser on Runnyeye. As DPS bruisers work as good as any other DPS class, even better at many points. Most people chose wizard/scout over bruiser though, as many of them doesnt know this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a Tank, the bruiser is AMAZING. Yesterday i grouped with Trobadour, Ranger, Inquisitor, Defiler and Wizard, all above level 46, and i can say that i have never EVER been in a group with as fast exp as that. We grouped in Perma and we had to constantly pull adds to us as we never went under 50% in HP/PWR. I was 49 and gained about 10% per hour. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[benisbor]

<DIV>Thank you for bringing another vote of confidence to the lower levels. =)</DIV>

[lordofdrago]

Dalcor,You stated that bruiser tank JUST as well as plate classes. Pleas answer just 2 simple questions:Guardians get more enounter taunts and encounter attacks than we do, how do we make up for this? Spaming Intimidating Orders and shout doesn't always work well.How do we make up for deflection not working when mobs are behind us when plate mitigation continues to work?Please answer those 2 questions. If you can't answer both questions well, bruiser don't tank just as good. Saying that bruiser tank as well as guardians but just differnt is like the real life statement "Seperate but Equal". We all have Opinions, I'm asking you to backup your statement of fact with some facts. Hell, I'll settle for some logic with no fact, anything other than the emotion. If I have miscalculations, please point them out to me, I very well might.By the way, if you've play EQ1, you understand how Sony feels about game balance, do you really think that bruisers would be able to out DPS guardians AND tank just as well? Is that fair to guardian? Is that balanced?I await your responses....

[benisbor]

<DIV>As for taunts: Our taunts are just as good. We have less, but we make up for them with 1) our higher damage output, which augments the effect of any taunt given and 2) our rapid swings line, which serves as essentially a 3rd taunt due to its high dps. Even if we were to statistically find that Bruiser taunts are slightly less effective by a small percentage, they work, and that's all that matters. Buy your upgrades.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for tanking:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deflection not working when mobs are behind you: This problem effects warriors too, by the way. No class can evade with mobs behind it. Obviously it hurts Bruisers most because we have nothing *but* our evasion with which to tank. However, who cares? Any good tank, and I don't care what class you are, will pull the mobs a few feet over until they are all in front. This is the most commonplace, no-brainer, first step as any tank. If this truly is one of your reasons for not liking the Bruiser as a tank, then you need to seriously reevaluate how much you really *want* to tank, because any tank not willing to move a couple steps and group the mobs in front of him or her is worthless (that is not meant to be an attack on you, but rather on the concept). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let me summarize:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We make up for less taunts than warriors in the same way that Berzerkers were able to taunt so well - damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as for not being able to tank with mobs behind us, this question is a non-issue, because no class should tank with mobs behind it anyway. A warrior uses evasion as well, remember, and is brainless if he does this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Miyu-Lega]

I never have issues holding agro, but I take the time to get adept3 taunts. Another MAJOR factor is if your healer is healing you properly. If they are using BoV/Ward/Regen they are low agro, but I am having trouble seeing how you couldnt hold agro overa healer less your skills are very low. In fact the only class I have agro issues with is a certian bard who decides to rebuff during pull....

[lordofdrago]

Dalcor,you make some good points.I think most bruisers agree that we tank singles or low number sof mobs fine. The problem I've seen is when large numbers of mob run into camp an dyou can't move move much due to possible adds. The rapid swing/one hundred hand slap series is great for argo.. but it affects 1 target and has a 30 second refresh.The difference between us and bezekers is that they do AoE damage, we do single target damage. We don't match them on high numbered encounters. I run with the combatstats mini-window up to get real-time data. They jump out front in damage and we never get close many times.Plate wears don't rely on dodge, they rely on the armor reducing the damage taken. That being the cases, it doesn't make much difference to them where the attacks come from. Maybe it's different for you but I take a lot more damage when I surrounded my mobs than I do when they are all in front.In any event, I don't think that we are that far about in our opinion. Bruisers can tank singles. Bruiser can multiples, I still don't see them doing it as well most of the time as a guardian (this is were we slightly disagree). In some cases they might. I guess we just have to agree to disagree, it's all good though. We are both having fun. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/salute Dalcor

[D]

<DIV>I'm really having a hard time understanding the big deal. Someone please enlighten me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is wrong with bruisers doing good damage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can a tin can fighter match our damage when they aren't tanking? I've seen parsers that show that they can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do bruisers (or any fighter) do too much damage? Honestly, before looking for a way to nerf fighter damage output because mages aren't able to match us late game why not take a look at the damage our BASE melee output is...most of the parsed info looks like all fighters are averaging 20-50% more than what their normal no combat art melee can do. This seems right to me. Mages and some scouts are having a hard time keeping up because their late game skills are not scaling...while our weapon damage keeps going up. This seems like a mage/scout issue not a problem with fighter damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can bruisers outperform tin can tanks at taunting and tanking?</DIV> <DIV>This is an extremely subjective question. If the only healer you get for a group is a shaman and you have a SK and a bruiser of the same level on your team...who would you pick to tank? Bruiser would be the better choice imo. But if all you can find is a druid then the SK by far would be a better bet. I hear people say over and over that shamans are a poor choice as healers if you can have only one. As a bruiser - a shaman is the first thing I look for when starting a team, and I'm never worried if a shaman is the only healer I can find(usually means we can kill things faster actually).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"We can't take a hit like a plate tank can so we should never tank."</DIV> <DIV>From what I've seen in this game EVERY fighter when fighting orange+ mobs tanks on buffs. Wards, reactive heals, agi buffs, parry/blocking skill buffs, defense buffs, HP buffs...if you think it's JUST a tank's base AC rating that keeps them alive then I feel you are sorely mistaken. It certainly helps and it helps tin cans much more than us because their parry skill isn't nearly what ours is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are bruisers overpowered?</DIV> <DIV>No, I don't think so. I think we are the most balanced class out there at the moment. We should be an example to the devs of what a class can do when played right (and what they can't do when played wrong).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you play a brawler poorly then you will have a very hard time with the class, but if you play well you will be rewarded in spades. This is how every class should play, but at the present some classes are having a hard time excelling at their craft no matter how hard they try. </DIV>

[Faw]

<DIV>I will agree that we CAN tank, and tank well if played properly, especially if your running with a troub/dirge, or both.  The high agi that can be given from those classes makes you unstoppable in a way that other tanks can not match.  Personally I would rather 2ndary tank and have a dps role, thats just me.  Problem is if we can tank better, or as well and outdamage not only other fighters, but casters/some scouts as well we are going to get the bat.  On a seperate caster issue they have to work at it to match the dps we can put out.  This argument will never go away, some of us want to be dps some to tank.  If you want to tank go for it, if you want to be dps go for it.  I dont think there should be a cookie cutter role that we have to fit, its the versatility that I enjoy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMO the following set up would be the best group/exp you could run with in the mid-upper 40's</DIV> <DIV>Mystic/Def</DIV> <DIV>Dirge/troub</DIV> <DIV>Bruiser x3</DIV> <DIV>Brigand or Assasin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>could trade out 1 bruiser for another dirge/troub, 1 of each is bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now although I love my class completely and don't want to loose anything, the problem I see is that for the absolute best damage/exp group i can put together includes no mages whatsoever.  And no don't turn down mages generally b/c I feel they are subpar to melee classes.  I group with a warlock who is a close friend regularly.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh on a seperate note, the rangers/swash's that ive grouped with are either subpar classes or playing them really badly b/c they can't hold a candle to a dirge/troub or brig/assassin but thats a subject for a different board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My idea for a fix = Fix mages, leave bruisers alone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Happy Flames</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stahl - 44 Bruiser, Permafrost</DIV> <DIV>Iconoclast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Manuel]

<DIV>Main poster knows what he talks about. ; most replies come from offended scouts, or "i hit for 200k" wannabes... We high level bruisers know the real deal. I know i outdamage scouts. I know I can compete with casters, and with chanter buffs i own them. My dual swing is pounding at rates it makes scouts mini hits a joke. 2X12-14 for 1.2 secs? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? How about 2X60-80 for 2 secs? Yes, thats us. At least thats me, with 120 unbuffed strenght and 750 unbuffed attack at level 38. When i reach 200+ STR im the fraghouse... I hit reds, oranges, triple arrows, your mama... I got photos of soloing white double arrow mobs... With buffs i just drop em before they drop me. I could kill an evil eye of Runnyeye, RED ^ ^ , ALONE. Im the #1 bruiser of my server and people knows me, Im no liar. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were born to pound. Period. We can hold the heat, and survive, but if you look at our skill page its all about damage. This is a no brainer... And to the "bruisers have a defined role.. they are tanks" quote of Moorgard, all i gotta say is a big BAH! go play your monk... I think this quote is one of the worst contributions to the bruiser community (#1 would be pink monk armour). Gets people confused. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall the class OWNS and there should not be changes to its playstyle AT ALL. D-O-N-T touch us. </DIV>

[lordofdrago]

Dvt,regardless of what casters and assassins are sayins, I have many, mnay hours of log data with assassins and wizards that higher level than me that I out DPS'd. They knew I was parsing because I Control-V'd the parse information into group chat. I also have a few hours of data where a complete stranger parsed, the results were the same. So alothough it might be true at all levels or with all character, I can tell you for a fact that between 34 and 36 I out DPS every other class on single mobs over 90% of the time.So until assassins and others can also show parse data, they are expressing an opinion. If anyone wants my log files.. just let me know.The only real discussion in my mind is the issue of tanking. I don't see many people realing arguing that we can't tank singles as well or nearly as well as any other class. We can hold argo of 1 target very easliy. We take more damage when we get hit than plate tanks, however, our deflection makes it so that we get hit less often and we have ignore pain/hurt skills help heal our damage. The equation is roughly equal on singles I think.That leaves us with tanking multiples. With multiple mobs, deflection is less effective, there no geting getting around that. So, we get hit more often by mobs flanking or behind us. If 4 mobs are in front of us, they might all do roughly the same damage. If 2 mobs get behind us, those 2 might do do much more than the ones in front. A plate wearer still has mitigation working for him, regardless of the number of mobs or the angle of their attack. The damage taken by a plate wear is more linear and scales with the number mobs. Other class have more skills that generate encouter argo than bruiser so they tend to handle maintaining encounter argo better, in my opinion.

[EQ2Adam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> benisbored wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm a hypocrite for saying this, as I made many similar posts myself at lower levels: don't post this stuff unless you know what you're talking about, to put it most bluntly. This post is riddled with baseless assertions that fly in the face of every intelligent and well defended post that has been seen on both the Bruiser *and* the Priest forums. I'm a level 50 Bruiser, and can say without reservation that our class, when played correctly, out-tanks any other. The Brawler is, from my experience, an *amazing* tank post-40. I walked into Everfrost at level 42 and was forcing the healers to use half the mana they had been using on our level 46 Guardian only 10 minutes before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, most of this probably makes no sense to you. You're thinking, "What? He must be joking." No, the truth of the matter is, you've made a grave miscalculation in labelling the Bruiser as solely a damage dealer -- we are, as Moorgard as very accurately defined us, tanks before anything else. We tank JUST as well as plate classes, but in a different manor. They get hit with a steady stream of damage while we barely ever get hit with anything, occasionally being beaten for a large amount (which is no problem when immediately followed up by a one minute refresh mend). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also played a Monk in EQ1, as I'm sure did many of your target audience in these forums. I would recommend that you sit tight, calm down, and play your class for few more levels, then come back and post again. <STRONG>This post is an insult to every level 50 brawler in my guild that has tanked Groupx4 ^^^ level 54 Mobs that hit for 4,000 damage, and done it better than any warrior could've.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, for reference, I'd like everyone on these forums to please check out the Priest Forum. Go to Priest Archtype. There, I have posted a thread called "The Priest's Misconception," which addresses the common and ignorant assumption that Brawler's cannot tank. It has aroused quite a conversation.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by benisbored on <SPAN class=date_text>01-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It's posts like yours that're going to get us nerfed.  Any 50 bruiser would know that it's much smarter to cast Shrug Off on a plate class tank and let them be the MT.  This gives added dodging plus defense, so even if they get hit, it's for very little because they're over 5000 defense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously we have some kind of ability to tank - WE ARE A FIGHTER.  However, this doesn't mean we are better suited for tanking than DPS.</DIV>

[benisbor]

<DIV>Lordofdragons, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are right, plate classes don't rely on dodge to tank. However, while their evasion abilities are less good than the Brawler's, they do still have evasion abilities. Thus, a plate class who is playing his class to 100% effectiveness will not allow mobs to get behind him anymore than a Bruiser will, because he's simply allowing himself to take more damage. Now, again, I grant you that if a Bruiser makes this mistake he or she will pay for it more than a plate class, but I think the two of us can agree in a class balancing discussion we shouldn't compare two classes only when they are both playing foolishly. Rather, I think a true comparison between classes arises when we consider them at their peak performance. Based on this understanding, if both a bruiser or a guardian are playing their classes correctly, neither will allow mobs to get behind them, and thus this element of your concern should be a non-issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you say that we take more damage when mobs get behind you, of course I agree. Once again, however, to move a few feet with the mobs is not difficult. This is the typical group encounter in Permafrost or Lavastorm looks like for me:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    Engage with Instigate (single-target taunt). Initiate focus buff. Attack the first mob that gets to you for a few moments and wait for the rest to gather into a cluster in front of you. Use your AE taunt, then any other AEs, and proceed to do your thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's very, very rare that I am just jumped from behind by something. If a group is even half [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] it should know what mobs are roaming around and should not position itself so as to get a roamer. Moreover, if a roamer is seen before it gets to camp, as it should be, the Brawler tank has ample time to simply move back and engage it as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, when you compare us to Berzerker's in damage, either Berzerker's at your level are still relatively overpowered, or you are basing your assumptions off of the old Berzerkers. Berzerkers have recently met with a rather significant balance readjustment, and now I see old Berzerkers re-rolling as Bruisers left and right on my server. Inevitably, they send me /tells asking if they made the right decision and respond that they most certainly did. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as tanking multiples less good than Guardians, which I feel I have already addressed adequately, I must attempt to talk to your logic here. There is nothing inherently about group mobs which make them harder to tank for a Bruiser, despite a common misconception. While they do throw more hits at you than a single mob, thus working your evasion more, they also have significantly less attack and damage output per hit. Thus, as group mobs they are intriscally less likely to hit, and when they do it will be for less than a single anyway. Therefore there is no reason multiples should be anymore of a problem. I believe any high end brawler could second this notion. And as for being scared that multiples are going to get behind you somehow, I have to say once more, if you are letting mobs get behind you, you have less to worry about class and more to worry about being a worthwhile tank period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by benisbored on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 AM</span>

[benisbor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dvt wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm really having a hard time understanding the big deal. Someone please enlighten me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is wrong with bruisers doing good damage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can a tin can fighter match our damage when they aren't tanking? I've seen parsers that show that they can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do bruisers (or any fighter) do too much damage? Honestly, before looking for a way to nerf fighter damage output because mages aren't able to match us late game why not take a look at the damage our BASE melee output is...most of the parsed info looks like all fighters are averaging 20-50% more than what their normal no combat art melee can do. This seems right to me. Mages and some scouts are having a hard time keeping up because their late game skills are not scaling...while our weapon damage keeps going up. This seems like a mage/scout issue not a problem with fighter damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can bruisers outperform tin can tanks at taunting and tanking?</DIV> <DIV>This is an extremely subjective question. If the only healer you get for a group is a shaman and you have a SK and a bruiser of the same level on your team...who would you pick to tank? Bruiser would be the better choice imo. But if all you can find is a druid then the SK by far would be a better bet. I hear people say over and over that shamans are a poor choice as healers if you can have only one. As a bruiser - a shaman is the first thing I look for when starting a team, and I'm never worried if a shaman is the only healer I can find(usually means we can kill things faster actually).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"We can't take a hit like a plate tank can so we should never tank."</DIV> <DIV>From what I've seen in this game EVERY fighter when fighting orange+ mobs tanks on buffs. Wards, reactive heals, agi buffs, parry/blocking skill buffs, defense buffs, HP buffs...if you think it's JUST a tank's base AC rating that keeps them alive then I feel you are sorely mistaken. It certainly helps and it helps tin cans much more than us because their parry skill isn't nearly what ours is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are bruisers overpowered?</DIV> <DIV>No, I don't think so. I think we are the most balanced class out there at the moment. We should be an example to the devs of what a class can do when played right (and what they can't do when played wrong).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you play a brawler poorly then you will have a very hard time with the class, but if you play well you will be rewarded in spades. This is how every class should play, but at the present some classes are having a hard time excelling at their craft no matter how hard they try. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This deserves a separate post. Dyt, what we are establishing here is nothing that ought contradict our desire to be damage dealers. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it -- the Bruiser deals *amazing* damage. And personally that much is enough for me. HOWEVER, and this is a very important however, just because we are great damage dealers does not justify ignorance on the part of many other Bruisers in regards to our ability to tank as well. As it turns out, we happen to be great damage dealers AND great tanks. The fact that half the priests have the leather monk from EQ1 stuck in their heads already makes the job of spreading this concept ten times harder. We don't need a bunch of people from our OWN class parading around telling everyone that they won't tank because that's not their job. It kills the opportunity of those legitimate players who desire to exploit every aspect of their class, and ultimately is a degrading way to play. </DIV>

[D]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> benisbored wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>We don't need a bunch of people from our OWN class parading around telling everyone that they won't tank because that's not their job. It kills the opportunity of those legitimate players who desire to exploit every aspect of their class, and ultimately is a degrading way to play.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thank You :smileyhappy::smileyhappy::smileyhappy::smileyhapp y:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Hi, my name is Kirin. I am a Bruiser. I enjoy kicking the snot out of my enemies, [Removed for Content] them off, and taking long walks on coldwind beach while drunk. I invite you to try to strike back while I beat you senselessly - if you can hit me." This is the only definition that I want my role to have.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dvt on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 PM</span>

[Junaru]

Just wondering if this is the proof you are looking for about Bruisers/Monks being better tanks..http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=1160Personally I think if anyone would know it would be the healers..As far as DPS goes.. It's broken. The way it should be is (In my opinion)...Wizard/WarlockRanger/AssasinNecro/ConjSwashy/BrigMonk/Bruiser (this should flip flop with Swashy/Brig back and forth)Pally/SKSo on so on..Expect SOE to balance(nerf) as needed.

[Tren]

taste great less fillingTaste Great LESS FILLING/yawnJust play the class .. enjoy its output damage .. and if you must ... tank all you want ... point is just enjoy the game ... the more time spent on a mute arguement is less time spent kicking [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] at a blazing pace in game. Ever since i decided to create a bruiser as an alt .. the game itself gets better and better. the more i level the deadlier i become. I get anxious everytime when I'm about to go into a dungeon and know that I'm gonna be splitting skulls. Also, i would gladly tank if i have to as well as step behind a mob and assist. Either way the end result is the same ... XP and phat lewtzIm out!

[Redbed]

<DIV>Bruisers can tank well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers can deal out killer DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers cannot Deal out Killer DPS and Tank effectively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers cannot tank effectively and deal out Killer DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Soley my opinion but Ill expound).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I am tanking I have to keep aggro of the mobs.  To do this I must shout and use whatever single point Taunt I have.  This takes the place of a DPS attack I would normally use.  Also instead of using a attack buff concentrate I must use a defensive concentrate...again...its impeeding my increased DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you can see we are all right...and all wrong.....Also player skill playes a very key factor.  Someone who has tanked all the time is going to be better and faster then someone who has DPS'd most of the time.  Also skill of the group plays a factor....way too many variables that cannot be included in a parser.  Your scout may be watching TV and not spamming attacks.  Your healer may be late on a heal causing your bruiser to hit mend instead of an attack or Whatever.....see what Im saying.....I dont trust parsers and dont beleive a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] word of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway...Just play the game and have fun, stop worrying about what other people are doing.  </DIV>

[Moski]

<DIV>I really cant believe all the Postings from the uber Bruisers that out tank Guardians and Berserkers post lvl 40.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i am a 44 Bruiser myself and i am equipped with the "standart" lvl 40-50 brawler items - all between yellow and orange in 44. My skills are all at least app4 or better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there are a lot of postings - hey look here i tanked a xx-LvL^^ 5 lvls higer than me and the mob doesnt hit me at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is in my experience so wrong. maybee in certain situations it might be correct. if u have a druid and bard and ur agi ist raised somewhere to 175++ </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but usually in oick up groups (at least on y server) u dont have the classes u want to. u have to play with the classes that are available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yesterday i tanked in permafrost. we were a 49 warden, 48 wizard, 46 warlock, 44 wizard and me 44 Bruiser. while tanking i used Rataliation (stance), Battle Fury and Eye Rake in every fight. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i had with the druid around 160 agi.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the mobs where yellow to me, groups of </DIV> <DIV>1x^^   or   2x^   or   3x without ^</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i noticed no big differene in the difficulty of the encounter.</DIV> <DIV>but i noticed,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i got very hard hits. usually at least every 2nd fight i got hits around 1.3k damage and several hits between 500 and 900 damage.</DIV> <DIV>there were lots of fights in the 2 or 3 hours where it was very very close, well i didnt die but it wasnt uber. i did tank but i did bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As soon as a Plate tank was lfg (after 2/3 hours) we invitet a lvl 48 Berserker. It was like day and night. he never got hits larger than 900 - usually around 500dmg. and his health never dropped under 50% (while i was close to death several times earlier while using my 60sec retimer Self-Heal-Training Adept2 as soons as it was up).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well u could argue now </DIV> <DIV>1st: The Berserker was 4 lvls higher than me. Thats right but this still does not proof that Brwalers 40+ are as good as a plate tank and "begin to shine" and whatever. In my experience it is hard work to tank in lvl 44.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2nd: we were 1 more in group after the berserker joined. Thats right too, our damage was higer an the fights were shorter but the damage the berserker took was much lower then mine. the max damage he took was 400 lower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in my experience we can tank if we need to. but it is hard work and theres no way that we outtank a plate-class. maybee with the best circumstances like having a bard, druid, and shaman in the group. but in 9 from 10 cases u dont have such groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Moskito on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:51 PM</span>

[Southe]

<DIV>Moskito,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know your an ogre, but unless they changed the way stat buffs stack with a bard + warden etc, i fail to see how you only have 175 agi with even the worst gear possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty sure they gonna scale down the way agi affects our evade, most of you see the crys about the bard / scout combo duoing red double up mobs and  never getting hit in CT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After reading through most of the posts, I think the topic of this thread got lost somewhere, im still tryin to figure out why some bruisers want to brag about how much dmg we do, or how good we can tank, does it matter what the masses think of us? I guess letting someone you will prolly never meet or group with know we kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is important to some, but most well played classes dont give a rats [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about what other people think, cause they are too busy kicking end game [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] with other well played classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This thread started out as " Bruisers MAIN role is high dmg output ". Any well played bruiser post 40 with up-to-date gear will tell you, yes, we deal high damage output, but it isn't our main role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can a well played bruiser with well played healers tank as well as guardians or better? </DIV> <DIV>Yup.  Moorgard said our main role is tanking, he is right about us being able to tank, but i think we fill the dps role just as well as a tanking role, we do both well and effectively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be a dps bruiser, cool, if you want to be a tank bruiser, cool, choose whichever playstyle you feel like playing, cause we do both.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Krace</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>40 bruiser of Unrest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Moski]

<DIV>i never said i have 175 agi with bard and druid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i said i have ~ 160 agi with a druid (without a bard)</DIV> <DIV>you could see on the soe player page that i have unbuffed 107 agi and i dont have "worst gear possible"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i said: i do not tank as well or even better (as some lvl40+ bruiser often say) as a plate tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i said: maybe it is possible to tank as good as a plate tank with a druid+bard+shaman combo in group but its not the case that u always have all the classes in your group to tank good</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and i like to add that if a plate class has raised agi (bard+druid) the tanking ability of that plate class is raised as well because they are also effected by higher agi = more evades etc.</DIV>

[lordofdrago]

Krace,my reasons for the post were:1) I see more negative posts than positive, my intent was to post postive things that we CAN do and that I have data to prove.2) To help clear up our role. I hear some bruisers claim they out tank guardians. I here other lower level bruisers complain about tanking. I've spoken to numerous high level bruisers, healers, watched damage taken during groups, looked at the skill lists of all the fighters and I've considered what I know of the way game balance tends to work. My OPINION is that we can tank ok but all thing being equal, we should not be out claiming we are the best tank around. Our tank role is to tank when a better tank is unavailable and to tank through ourown damage argo.When I solo green 2ups, they sometimes miss me 60 or more times in row.. thats right 60 or times in a row. Thats with no group buffs. In a group tanking orange 2ups, I get plastered some times. I'm forced to wonder what people are tanking that claim to be uber tanks.3) I'm happier with Bruisers than I have been with ANY class in EQ1 since release or EQ2. I think our purpose it clear and our tools great. Just wanna shrare that. Being happy with your class is sometimes dependant on knowing what your role is, accepting it and being happy it. Most bruisers that want to be main tank will not be happy, I can tell you for a fact on Oasis, a bruiser that keeps running around trying to be MT is going to find himself/herself excluded for a lot of pickup groups.If you are a bruiser that wants to do damage that sometimes seems obscene, then bruiser is the class for you. I sometimes do as much damage than everyone else in the group combine. Not often, however, itd does happen from time to time. 2 days ago a was doing the same damage as a swashbuckler 4 levels higher than me on mobs that were 4 level higher than me in Rivervale. It's hard for me not have a clear picture of our role. Primary DPS, secondary tank. That my opinion, however, unlike many, I have data to support my opinion.

[Groovemeist]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2><FONT face=Century>Balance you could squeeze 15-20 more points of agi out if you changed out your gear and this would make you a better tank if that is what you wanted to do.  More than any other class bruisers/monks take work and preparation to tank, you don't just throw us in the mix and we do it.  Just like everyone we have to switch out buffs, but in our case it is more critical as we don't have the inherent AC to mitigate all the hits.  </FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2><FONT face=Century>As a class we do good damage and with the right gear, we tank fairly well.  Now add in a good party makeup gear toward us tanking and we go from just fairly well to amazing.  Granting we do have trouble keeping agro on multi mob pulls given our lack of AE abilities.</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2><FONT face=Century>As to your statement that you have data to back up what you say... Well no one is disagreeing with you on your statement that we do good damage, everyone agrees on this.  What people are disagreeing with you on is that we don't tank well, when you have show a disdain for tanking in the first place.  You are giving an opinion with very little to back up that opinion based on what you have tried and how the situations were setup.  Without knowing what buffs you had on, the skills you used, and what your stats were at the time, it is very hard to have a constructive discussion about it.</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2><FONT face=Century>I think we are comparable to the other tank classes in our ability to tank.  This changes depending on the situation, sometimes they are better, sometimes we are better.  </FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2><FONT face=Century>You can think all we are is DPS all you want, but for the few of us that are trying hard to educate the rest of the player base that we are more, don't pigeon hole us all.</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Groovemeister on <span class=date_text>01-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[Ashdaren]

<DIV><FONT size=4>Just to let you all know until the last patches I was really happy with my bruiser tanking ability (lvl 41). I m playing with a berserker and i was almost all the time the main tank.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>But since few days as we level and fight new encounter we have noticed that the berserker is much much more a better tank than i m now ( i dual box the warden of my girfriend so i know what i am talking about with damage mitigation)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Even though the berserker still use no shield (hell we are still doing fine) he can just out tank me on every encounter. Was the berserker too buffed or my bruiser just not catching on i couldn t say for sure. My tanking abilities are really limited for my level compared to the other tanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS : Also on the dps matter, we sure do some nice damage but it is nothing to compare with mage or scout, so stop the newbee rubish on this point plz and try to play your class with some lucidity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2 coppers.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lordofdragons wrote:<BR>DaranHB,<BR><BR>3 thing:<BR><BR>One, what levels are the characters that you are comparing?<BR><BR><BR>Two, the find that the MT often runs out of power before me unless I'm using summoned or vendor water.<BR><BR><BR>Three, again, I NEVER SAID or IMPLIED that brusier can't tank.<FONT color=#ffff00> I stick with the state that it is not our first role. </FONT>The functions of a tank are to hold the mobs attention and to take the beating for everyone else. Plate wearers rely on mitigration, damage mitigation has nothing to do with the number of mobs or their position. We rely of deflection, deflection doesn't work well with large numbers of mobs or mobs behind you. So on multiple mobs, we may take more damage than a plate tank. Often there is no way around it, you can't always reposition.<BR><BR>Below I have outlined some of the differences in skills between Guardians and Bruisers. You can clearly see that Guardians have skills better suited to defense of the group and holding the argo of an entire group of enemies than Bruisers. They will be better than we will be in most cases to get and maintain encounter argo. The skill summary appears to show that we are ok with 1 mob but may have trouble with groups. My tanking experience bears this out for me. I can hold argo for 1 mob as well as any one, I have trouble holding argo for 4 orange mobs though, not to mention I seem to take a beating.<BR><BR>Skills that generate AoE hate: Guardian 4, Bruiser 2<BR>Skills that absorb damage for allys: Guardian 4, Bruiser 0<BR>Skills that block damage for allys: Guardian 3, Bruisers 2<BR>Aoe attacks: Guardians 4, Bruiser 2<BR>Hate increasing skills (Single and AOE): Guardian 5, Bruiser 6<BR>Skills that increase group defense: Guardian 1, Bruiser 0<BR>Skills that increase group armor class: Guardian 2, Bruiser 0<BR><BR><BR>If someone can make statements with some sort of fact as to why Bruisers can tank as well as anyone else, I'd love to hear it. Mostly, I hear emotion or people basing their opinions on statements from Sony. After nearly 6 years, I've learned not take everything Sony states at face value. I have several MB of log files to show I came to the consulsions about our role as DPS. I have the skills list to show how I conclude that others classes manage argo than us and those same class defend again multiple enemies better than us. Does anyone have anything concrete to show why we do make better tanks than guardians or bezerkers?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>YOU ARE WRONG.</P> <P>100% ABSOLUTELY WRONG.</P> <P>In fact, I wish that monks like you from EQ1 who are used to being DPS and not tanks would go back to EQ1.  All you are doing is making it hard for all of us monks/bruisers who play the class as intended.</P> <P>There are MANY factors while in certain situations you may do more damage than other classes.  Scouts rely on sneak, poison, debuffs, position, etc and so on to be effective. </P> <P>Not to mention the log parser you are using isn't the best one out there.  I believe in the default options it logs damage from after xp or something.</P> <P>The point is you are wrong.  You are trying to convince a bunch of educated people that the class plays how you want it too because of a few 20 hour logs that don't even begin to show the whole picture.</P> <P>I've logged guardians doing over 100+ dps after an encounter.  I've logged berserkers doing 500+ dps after a single encounter.  Hell I've logged enchanters doing insane DPS on any given encounter.</P> <P>The fact remains that a bruiser/monk is designed to be MT with the <EM>ability</EM> do provide dps when sacrificing their defensive abilities for offensive ones.  That is a choice the player makes.</P> <P>It is all too apparant that you don't know enough about this game or your class to be telling anyone how to play it.  You came here with expectations of FD pulling and splitting.  Sorry, wrong game.</P> <P>Please learn how this game works, learn how your defensive/offensive stats work and THEN compare a variety of logs from a variety of groups and a variety of programs.</P> <P>We have a hard enough time playing our role without people like you trying to change it for us.</P> <P>Plenty of us are tanks, and love it.  If you want to be soley dps go play a dps class.  I'm sorry that you perceive this as one, but your perception is wrong.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Adam wrote:<BR> <DIV>It's funny to hear noobs spew their not-so-informative information on a public forum when they have very limited experience as a bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just because we (bruisers) fall under the Figher archetype does not mean we can tank as well as a guardian or a shadow knight.  We have considerably higher DPS than guardians and shadow knights, if we could tank equally as well we would be extremely over powered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do bruisers make good MAIN tanks?  NO.  We're a bigger mana sink than plate wearing tank classes.  Can we act as a secondary tank, and do well if we steal aggro?  YES!  With the mend ability, and high dodging / blocking, we do very well with aggro as long as it's short to medium duration.  At level 46 we get an ability that can be cast on another player which grants 1300+ defense and added agility.  When I give this buff to an SK or Guardian he tanks 10 times better than I ever could.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A bruisers role is to deal damage.  We can tank small encounters, or mobs below our level, but I guarantee you'll never see a bruiser tanking Vox or other raid encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a level <FONT color=#ffff00>mediocre</FONT> 50 bruiser on Najena.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny, I've tanked raid encounters.  If there is a reason a brawler won't tank an end game encounter its because of uninformed people like you.  A guardian with bard buffs and a good mystic/warden in the tank group can tank raid stuff just as well as a guardian/zerker with the same and a cleric/warden.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Adam wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LadySylvi wrote:<BR>" but I guarantee you'll never see a bruiser tanking Vox or other raid encounters."<BR><BR>The bruisers who have tanked and killed high end raid encounters (sparse as they are) disagree.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You just like to argue for the sake of arguing.  What do you want, a parser to log heals to see which classes tank more efficiently?  A bruiser in defensive not only requires more healing power, it also lowers bruiser DPS. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Any fighter tanking lowers DPS.  I've parsed guardians at over 100dps when I'm tanking.  I've killed TONS of groupx2 mobs and even con mobs and the group +++ groupx2 giants in Sol Eye with ONE warden healer who NEVER went out of power.</P> <P>Just because YOU can't tank doesn't mean the CLASS can't.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>lordofdragons wrote:<BR></P> <P>Can you show it on a damage taken parse? <FONT color=#ffff00>Yes, plenty have been posted in the monk forum (before you even say it - monk/bruiser = the same give or take MAYBE 3%)<BR></FONT>Can you show that deflection makes for better tanks than mitigation? <FONT color=#ffff00>Yes?  Consider a mystic's ward.  It doesn't even consider mitigation.  If the healer in a group is a mystic you are UNEDUCATED to have a plate tank heal, since the ward will be used in the first few combat rounds.  Where on a brawler, who on the norm will dodge 60%+ of attacks it lasts longer, conserving mana AND making the evasion tank easier to heal <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>Can you show that we have Taunts as good as other classes? <FONT color=#ffff00>Its my assumption that you get an AoE taunt, a single target taunt and a trait taunt, like all fighter classes.  Also buffing is a great way to increase hate.  You cycle your taunts/buffs just like any other fighter tanking and you auto-attack.  You do NOT spam specials.  Your role is to tank, not dps.  If you are tanking play your role.</FONT></P> <P>By the way, a statement from the PR guy doesn't count.<BR><BR>Tanks need to hold argo. Show me the data that says we hold argo better than guardians. I've tanked Red 2up in Runneye too. 1 2up isn't to bad, just costs more pwoer for the healers. Can you hold argo when you pull miners and 6 miners up into camp? Can you hold argo when 2 wizards start AoEing? Guardians and Zerker do it well. Our AoE skills just aren't up to par with theirs. <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  I've held aggro though all sorts of things, even multiple mob encounters.</FONT><BR><BR>Tanks need to take a beating. One one mob, again we are ok, not great but ok. Using the example above, when the 6 yellow or orange goblins run into camp, they can be all over. Correct me if I'm wrong but defelction works poorly when mobs are flanking or behind you? Heavy armor mitigation works the same. Your damage taken will increase greatly with 2 goblins beating you in bank while you turn to taunt of one on the healer. Sinc eyou are now taking more damage, the healers have to heal more, thereby generating more argo and making the whole encounter harder for you to manage. <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong again.  You are showing your skill lvl here.  I've tanked NAMED 50++ group encounters with a name and FIVE or SIX adds just fine with ONE healer.  It isn't hard at all when you use your taunts/group buffs to generate and KEEP hate.  I can probably guess your problem.  You try to tank while in an offense stance and spamming combat specials.  WRONG.  You tank with auto attack while cycling your tants and group buffs (group buffs are a GREAT way to generate hate).  If bruisers don't get group buffs, then do a buff for yourself, it has the same effect.</FONT><BR><BR><BR>I'm not tryign to be combative. I do like a do conversation that makes me think. I don't even mind being wrong if I can learn something. The problem is that many people get emotional and make statements with ZERO supporting facts, data or even logic.<BR><BR><BR>Does anyone have ANYTHING that supports the case for us to be primary tank?  <FONT color=#ffff00>How about that Dalcor, a 50 bruiser is one of the main people besides me (50 monk) on the forums and in game showing everyone how we can be effective main tanks.  Remember if YOU can't tank, its your skill, not the class.</FONT><BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Manueles wrote:<BR> <DIV>Main poster knows what he talks about. ; most replies come from offended scouts, or "i hit for 200k" wannabes... We high level bruisers know the real deal. I know i outdamage scouts. I know I can compete with casters, and with chanter buffs i own them. My dual swing is pounding at rates it makes scouts mini hits a joke. 2X12-14 for 1.2 secs? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? How about 2X60-80 for 2 secs? Yes, thats us. At least thats me, with 120 unbuffed strenght and 750 unbuffed attack at level 38. When i reach 200+ STR im the fraghouse... I hit reds, oranges, triple arrows, your mama... I got photos of soloing white double arrow mobs... With buffs i just drop em before they drop me. I could kill an evil eye of Runnyeye, RED ^ ^ , ALONE. Im the #1 bruiser of my server and people knows me, Im no liar. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were born to pound. Period. We can hold the heat, and survive, but if you look at our skill page its all about damage. This is a no brainer... And to the <FONT color=#ffff00>"bruisers have a defined role.. they are tanks" quote of Moorgard, all i gotta say is a big BAH! go play your monk</FONT>... I think this quote is one of the worst contributions to the bruiser community (#1 would be pink monk armour). Gets people confused. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall the class OWNS and there should not be changes to its playstyle AT ALL. D-O-N-T touch us. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow.  I'm sure YOU know more than a Dev who plays a bruiser in live.</P> <P>People's attitude like yours make me sick.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moskito wrote:<BR> <DIV>I really cant believe all the Postings from the uber Bruisers that out tank Guardians and Berserkers post lvl 40.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i am a 44 Bruiser myself and i am equipped with the "standart" lvl 40-50 brawler items - all between yellow and orange in 44. My skills are all at least app4 or better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there are a lot of postings - hey look here i tanked a xx-LvL^^ 5 lvls higer than me and the mob doesnt hit me at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is in my experience so wrong. maybee in certain situations it might be correct. if u have a druid and bard and ur agi ist raised somewhere to 175++ </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but usually in oick up groups (at least on y server) u dont have the classes u want to. u have to play with the classes that are available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yesterday i tanked in permafrost. we were a 49 warden, 48 wizard, 46 warlock, 44 wizard and me 44 Bruiser. while tanking i used Rataliation (stance), Battle Fury and Eye Rake in every fight. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i had with the druid around 160 agi.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the mobs where yellow to me, groups of </DIV> <DIV>1x^^   or   2x^   or   3x without ^</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i noticed no big differene in the difficulty of the encounter.</DIV> <DIV>but i noticed,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i got very hard hits. usually at least every 2nd fight i got hits around 1.3k damage and several hits between 500 and 900 damage.</DIV> <DIV>there were lots of fights in the 2 or 3 hours where it was very very close, well i didnt die but it wasnt uber. i did tank but i did bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As soon as a Plate tank was lfg (after 2/3 hours) we invitet a lvl 48 Berserker. It was like day and night. he never got hits larger than 900 - usually around 500dmg. and his health never dropped under 50% (while i was close to death several times earlier while using my 60sec retimer Self-Heal-Training Adept2 as soons as it was up).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well u could argue now </DIV> <DIV>1st: The Berserker was 4 lvls higher than me. Thats right but this still does not proof that Brwalers 40+ are as good as a plate tank and "begin to shine" and whatever. In my experience it is hard work to tank in lvl 44.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2nd: we were 1 more in group after the berserker joined. Thats right too, our damage was higer an the fights were shorter but the damage the berserker took was much lower then mine. the max damage he took was 400 lower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in my experience we can tank if we need to. but it is hard work and theres no way that we outtank a plate-class. maybee with the best circumstances like having a bard, druid, and shaman in the group. but in 9 from 10 cases u dont have such groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I have 154 agility unbuffed and I tank all the time w/o a bard at all.  I'll say it again:  just because YOU can't tank doesn't mean the class ISN'T a tank.<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>lordofdragons wrote:<BR>Krace,<BR><BR>my reasons for the post were:<BR><BR>2) To help clear up our role. I hear some bruisers claim they out tank guardians. I here other lower level bruisers complain about tanking. I've spoken to numerous high level bruisers, healers, watched damage taken during groups, looked at the skill lists of all the fighters and I've considered what I know of the way game balance tends to work. My OPINION is that we can tank ok but all thing being equal, we should not be out claiming we are the best tank around. Our tank role is to tank when a better tank is unavailable and to tank through ourown damage argo.<BR></P> <P>Any, and I mean ANY fighter class can average high DPS. They simply have to use their offensive skills for just damage dealing.  Does this happen often for guardians?  No, but they CAN average over 100+ dps on encounters, routinely if they aren't tanking.  You just have to realize the misconceptions of the EQ1 crowd don't put guardians in that position very often.  Just like zerkers who can tank OR dps, ANY fighter class can do that.</P> <P>SK/Pally in the 45 to 50 range have BACK TO BACK DD's that hit for 550 damage.  THAT'S 1100 FROM TWO COMBAT ARTS.  Yet they wear plate AND have mitigation.</P> <P>Its all in the role you are trying to fill.  Fighters have great utility and can be either tank/dps but our MAIN role is tanking.<BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Oidan]

<DIV>Gage Take a breather bro, you wont see lvl 51. No matter where you go or what you do, you will always run into the Superman theory. These folks are usually younger in age and dont have a clue about other classes and what abilities and skills they have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just ignore them, it does not matter what they think. They will never be in a decent guild killing the top mobs with logic like this. They can try but they will realise that there is a counter and a strat for everything. It is best to not even include what they say because you cant change their mind when it is not even fully grown.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Here we go, the post I was looking for:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=5033" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=5033</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is a lvl 35 guardian getting around 90 to 95ish DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, you heard me right, a guardian.</DIV>

[fur]

<DIV>Although i agree we can tank, as been previously stated, that has alot to do with how you have built your character, if you like me focus on str in favor of agi youll suck hardcore without an agi buffer in the group, and then you should (like me) have someone else tank as long as the beforesaid group does not have an agi buffer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The impact agility have on our overall tanking cant be stressed enough, as a barbarian focusin on strength im in the low end spectrum but i have no problems whatsoever of tanking when agility buffed, unbuffed though im tanking like a caster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think alot of the confusion regarding our ability to tank is based on the fact that you have certain players playing large strength focused races like myself , and on the other side you have small agility based bruisers. The strength based players claim they have a hard time tanking while the agility crew have no problems at all buffed or unbuffed, so the real problem is not with the class as the class is only a set of skills, how you then use those skills is up to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to focus on doing damage , well then go with strength crank it up as high as you possible can , if you on the other hand want to be a efficent tank then search high and low for the armor pieces that favors agility, and dont forget theres a middle ground which tries to keep str,agi and sta at roughly the same level, and as i advance in levels (41 atm) i find myself moving more and more towards the "middle ground" type of bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skull</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Oidan wrote:<DIV>Gage Take a breather bro, you wont see lvl 51. No matter where you go or what you do, you will always run into the Superman theory. These folks are usually younger in age and dont have a clue about other classes and what abilities and skills they have.</DIV><hr></blockquote>They need to be educated nontheless, so they stop posting here with their nonsense and not add to a falsh perception that's still wildly apparent among the masses.

[Mie]

<DIV>Mez , Mend , Fear, FD, dps, build-in shield, tank ...................  urban class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one will play other class !!   5 Brusiers + 1 healer is perfect group !</DIV>

[Ashdaren]

<DIV>jack of all trade is always fun but never outstanding</DIV>

[kass]

<DIV>EqAdam and Lordofthedragon are two of the main reasons why we are not taken seriously as tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These two idiots spread so much misinformation on this site and thank god Gage is active enough to show why they are wrong on every thought they put out on this site.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kassel</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't wait for the technology that will allow me to one day reach through a computer screen and slap someone silly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[lordofdrago]

Gage-Mikel,my, you've been busy. First of all, at this point I have 2 weeks of log data. I view with with 2 different parsers. Guess what, the DPS numbers chnage, the amount of damage done during the encounter stays the same. No one but you is looking at DPS *numbers* in a isolated fashion. Surely you are smart enough to know that DPS number vary by parser, group buffs and the mobs you are fighting. What doesn't change is the ranking of who did the most damage in a given group during a specific enounter. So again, the damage ouput issue is not worth discussing any further. I know for an absolute fact what my milage is, perhaps you damage output relative to your group mates is less.The tanking issue. Again, my point was not that we can't tank. I specificly said that we can tank. I Only said that we don't tank as well as plate classes like guardians. You point out a few Bruisers on the board that say they can tank better than guardians. Sounds silly to me and I can point out level 50 bruisers that will admit that we don't tank as well as guardians. Whatever, this is all getting to be pointless. If we a re all happy with our bruisers, then it's all good.Many people are like the scout I was in a group with a few days ago. He's going on and on about how he was out damaging us all and how he never gets beat in damage output. I had been watching the logs out for hours. I was smoking this guy, and so were others from time to time. I would do 5k, he would 3.5k for exmaple. I was simply doing more damage per encounter over the course of hours. I'm not talking DPS, I'm talking about damage done on the same targets at the same time with the same buffs over a long period of time. Yet, there he was, yaking and wrong the whole time.I will admit this, tanking ability is much harder to judge objectively. Some bruisers might tank better than guardians. I'm 99% sure that most don't and it was never, ever intended to be that way in terms of game balance. Mitigation > Deflection for main tank most of the time. Thats the way it has been in EVERY game of this type I've ever seen or heard of. Look at the skill lists, ask the healers.I will gladly standup and admit being wrong tanking issue, just show some data, making a good case.PS, for those of new to Sony games. They WILL nerf a whole class because of abilities that only a very small percent of the population have. They have done it before, they will do it again. Yes, they will nerf 10,000 people because 10 people can something that was not intended for the sake of game balance. Anyone wanna argue this one?<p>Message Edited by lordofdragons on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Your misconception is that we weren't designed to be tanks, you are wrong.  That is because of your preconceived notions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its funny that you mention nerfing due to a few people being too good at something within a class.  If anything you'll get bruiser DPS nerfed as that is not the intended primary role of the class you are playing.  DPS is in fact the primary role of mages/scouts, something you should've rolled if you wanted to be a pure DD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't care about your opinion of mitigation vs avoidance tanks, I don't care if you've played 2093840283403982 MMO games (most people have).  I care what the developers of this game say.  After all its theirs, they program it, they designed it.  Not you, you play it, just like I do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can say all you want that SoE lies, and blah blah and I know this and you know that.  It doesn't matter.  The day you get paid for an 8 hour shift of coding on this game is the day you can tell me what SoE intended for the bruiser class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that you say you know lvl 50 bruisers who say they can't tank!  Whoop ti do!  Congrats, more opinion to back up my statement:  "Getting lvl 50 doesn't take skill, it takes time".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for you having 2 weeks worth of logs (I have several weeks worth, I ALWAYS log) they don't prove anything.  Look at the context of your parsing experiment:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) You know that you are logging DPS and you are trying hard to get the most damage.  Does everyone in the group know you are parsing every encounter or are they semi-afk and auto attacking, not paying attention to recast, not drinking, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) You need a TON of logs from more than just YOUR group.  Logs with various other players of various other classes in various other scenarios, all who are aware that damaged is being parsed, over a broad level range.  You then need someone to take this data and average it out and get a good median damage class effectiveness.  Do you do that?  Ooooh no you don't, thats because like I stated you don't work for SoE and get paid to do things like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in the end I don't really care what you say, I just think its sad that someone with your opinion happens to post so loudly on the forums.  Considering a small amount of us read/post here, I for one always hope that the louder yet misinformed folks will steer clear, while people who push to play their class as intended will speak up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun DPSing, but I'd recommend assassin or brigand if you want to do big melee dps.</DIV>

[Reol]

<DIV>the problem here is that from what Moorgard posted, the Scouts and Wizards are supposed to be the definitive dps classes while fighters are more secondary, now that agility is being nixed at 40+ i have grave concerns as to what will be done to the bruiser as far as dps goes. From what i have seen and read the tanking of mobs at 40+ is not way way harder to do, which is going to make the bruiser obsolete as far as even a situational tank.</DIV>

[lordofdrago]

Reolas,good wizards/warlocks can out DPS bruisers, some have a hard time. The problem that wizards have is that they don't live long once they get argo. Wizards should out damage us, and some do. Coercers can out damage us and Conjurers out damage us. I have no data on necromancers but my guess is that they can as well. I concede, all the robes wearers should be able to out damage us. In practice though, they often don't... not up to 40 anyway.As far scouts go. Scouts offer many advantages to a group outside of the damage that they do. Few groups want a bruiser to be main tank, Feign Death is rarely usefull to a group. Both classes offer some group buffs. Outside of damage, what does a bruiser bring to a group? Why shouldn't bruisers out damage scouts? The game is unbalanced if we can't. Bruisers should be, and at this point appear to be, the highest damage dealing melee class on single targets.Scouts offerDisarm trapGroup run speedSneak or group sneakTrackEvacPositional DPSBruisers offerAny angle DPSTanking (My opinion, decent but not the best)Feign Death

[Gaige]

<DIV>ROFL you never give up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It goes: caster - scout - fighter in order of DPS, they changed it from beta when it was: fighter - caster - scout for DPS.  They did this because they wanted fighters to be tanks, all fighters.</DIV>

[Reol]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lordofdragons wrote:<BR>Reolas,<BR><BR>good wizards/warlocks can out DPS bruisers, some have a hard time. The problem that wizards have is that they don't live long once they get argo. Wizards should out damage us, and some do. Coercers can out damage us and Conjurers out damage us. I have no data on necromancers but my guess is that they can as well. I concede, all the robes wearers should be able to out damage us. In practice though, they often don't... not up to 40 anyway.<BR><BR><BR><BR>As far scouts go. Scouts offer many advantages to a group outside of the damage that they do. Few groups want a bruiser to be main tank, Feign Death is rarely usefull to a group. Both classes offer some group buffs. Outside of damage, what does a bruiser bring to a group? Why shouldn't bruisers out damage scouts? The game is unbalanced if we can't. Bruisers should be, and at this point appear to be, the highest damage dealing melee class on single targets.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Scouts offer<BR>Disarm trap<BR>Group run speed<BR>Sneak or group sneak<BR>Track<BR>Evac<BR>Positional DPS<BR><BR><BR>Bruisers offer<BR>Any angle DPS<BR>Tanking (My opinion, decent but not the best)<BR>Feign Death<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You don't do much reading I can tell.....first off Moorgard posted they are looking at DPS, not what "other" benefits each class has or doesn't have they are focused in on DPS, and according to alot of higher lvl parses a assassin might do more 1 shot damage, but as far as overall dps goes the bruiser is higher due to consistant dps. I know alot of classes have this and that, Im not the one that works at SOE telling everyone they are re-evaluating the dps of ALL. So if a bruiser is doing dps similar or on par with a scout, you tell me what they will do to us, if your answer isn't nerf dps, well your mistaken because they will...and no matter how much dps they nerf even 5% with this new blunder that was done to agility and avoidance, lvl 40+ just became a hell of alot harder and if not impossible for us to tank now.

[lordofdrago]

If scouts are meant to be the highest Damage dealers, bruiser will get nerfed or scout DPS will get increased. From what I've seen AND reports that I recieved from many other bruisers and monks is that both classes out damage scouts on single targets. The EQ Dev team had to know these before EQII got too far into beta, let alone went live.MY OPINION is that bruisers should do more damage than scouts. I never said that it was tended to be that way, just that it currently is that way. In my opinion, Sony comments on the Golden rule of "Game Balance" is total BS if scouts get more group usefull abilities and more DPS.I looked for a post from Moorgard about "other" benefits not being taken into account for game balance. I couldn't find it. I'd appreciate it if you could point it out to me. I did read a post of his a some time ago semi related to this issue. I posted part of it below. Please note, his comments do support the idea that you can have DPS *OR* Tanking but not both... and it doesn't look like we were meant to be the best tanks. Does state that scouts were meant to out DPS us though. The reality is that they don't though, and I'm sure they know this.(http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=5006#M5006)Quote from Moorgard:Some posters in this thread want berserkers to be a class that can switch between being a tank and DPS class at will, on par with a scout or mage. That's like a wizard asking to be able to tank if they don't use their damage spells, which is not at all what their role is intended to be. Fighters are meant to fall behind mages and scouts in terms of DPS, while being at the top of the heap when it comes to tanking. Every class should be aware that if they have any ability that disrupts this relationship, it will be adjusted. Because we want to anger our customers? No, because it's required for the health of the game. Berserkers can wear the same armor and wield the same shields as guardians. There are no hidden mitigation bonuses for either class, so a berserker and a guardian of the same level, stats, and skills with the same armor/shield combo will have the same base avoidance and mitigation. Guardians have arts that give them increased defensive capabilities, while berserkers have arts that give them increased offense. That's the key difference between the two warrior classes. Keep in mind that if you play a berserker and are not using a shield while tanking, you're missing out on a huge part of the tank's damage avoidance capability. Crusader and warrior classes are intended to use shields while acting as a tank. Some posters are citing the two-sentence class description on the website as a definition of everything the class should be: "Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy." Some of you have invested your own emotional reactions into what you feel this is supposed to mean, but those descriptions were written to give lore-based flavor, not define everything a class is. It can just as easily be argued that berserkers as they stand today fit that description just fine. Berserkers continue to be effective tanks that deal out strong DPS. They were considerably overpowered before, because a few key abilities allowed them to surpass the damage output of mages and scouts. I realize you're looking for me to say that the class is now underpowered, but testing does not show that to be the case. Although bugs will be fixed and more arts will be adjusted, it is unlikely that berserkers will see a major DPS increase. I realize this is not what most berserkers will want to hear, but I'm trying to give you a direct, honest response.Those are his comments.What seems stupid to me on the part of the EQ Dev team is that we have gotten this far into a live game and they are tweaking basic stuff like this.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lordofdragons wrote:<BR><BR>Quote from Moorgard:<BR><BR>Some posters in this thread want berserkers to be a class that can switch between <FONT color=#ffff00>being a tank and DPS class at will, on par with a scout or mage. </FONT>That's like a wizard asking to be able to tank if they don't use their damage spells, which is not at all what their role is intended to be.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Fighters are meant to fall behind mages and scouts in terms of DPS, while being at the top of the heap when it comes to tanking. </FONT>Every class should be aware that if they have any ability that disrupts this relationship, it will be adjusted. Because we want to anger our customers? No, because it's required for the health of the game.<BR><BR>Berserkers can wear the same armor and wield the same shields as guardians. There are no hidden mitigation bonuses for either class, so a berserker and a guardian of the same level, stats, and skills with the same armor/shield combo will have the same base avoidance and mitigation. Guardians have arts that give them increased defensive capabilities, while berserkers have arts that give them increased offense. That's the key difference between the two warrior classes. Keep in mind that if you play a berserker and are not using a shield while tanking, you're missing out on a huge part of the tank's damage avoidance capability. Crusader and warrior classes are intended to use shields while acting as a tank.<BR><BR>Some posters are citing the two-sentence class description on the website as a definition of everything the class should be: "Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy." Some of you have invested your own emotional reactions into what you feel this is supposed to mean, but those descriptions were written to give lore-based flavor, not define everything a class is. It can just as easily be argued that berserkers as they stand today fit that description just fine.<BR><BR>Berserkers continue to be effective tanks that deal out strong DPS. <FONT color=#ffff00>They were considerably overpowered before, because a few key abilities allowed them to surpass the damage output of mages and scouts.</FONT> I realize you're looking for me to say that the class is now underpowered, but testing does not show that to be the case. Although bugs will be fixed and more arts will be adjusted, it is unlikely that berserkers will see a major DPS increase.<BR><BR>I realize this is not what most berserkers will want to hear, but I'm trying to give you a direct, honest response.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Those are his comments.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>What seems stupid to me on the part of the EQ Dev team is that we have gotten this far into a live game and they are tweaking basic stuff like this.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There.  You lose.</P> <P>Now will you please shush up about it.</P> <P>That is from Moorgard, a dev and also a bruiser.</P> <P>Fighters (bruiser = fighter) are supposed to be tanks first.  Their DPS is NOT supposed to bypass that of a scout or mage class (the true EQ2 DD).</P> <P>Since your own logs confirm you are outdamaging scouts/mages be ready for a reduction in DPS similiar to what the berzerkers suffered.</P> <P>You are a bruiser, a fighter, a tank.</P> <P>Deal with it or reroll.<BR></P>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE>Since your own logs confirm you are outdamaging scouts/mages be ready for a reduction in DPS similiar to what the berzerkers suffered.<BR></P><hr></blockquote>As long as they look to fixing the currently broken skills, and ajusting Brawl to be more inline with it's former lower level predecessors I'm sure the DPS number at 36+ will look better (Read: lower then currently), especially since the majority of bruisers I've seen at 36+ uses fist type weapons, and it's quite a big boost that an increase in Fist skill gives, from my own experince anyway.

[Miyu-Lega]

I'd add to this further, but I think Gage is doing well enough on his own. Consider me in full support of him.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>In my guild group, we have a zerker and bruiser (me) for tanks, and necromancer and troubadour for "damage" classes. Technically, the troubadour does a lot of debuffing/buffing and power sucking, so he's not really intended to be DPS, rather to keep the group alive and going longer than we'd normally be able to. Hence why we have two damage dealers for tanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My experience has been that the necromancer has kept up fine with DPS the entire time. He's constantly on my tails for total DPS (as long as his pets and pet-like-dots are dispersed well), and if there's a massive group of mobs (thinking of the dolls in Nektropos) he can easily outdamage me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My experience has been that the zerker tanking can do a heckuva lot of damage. Much of his abilities are reactive to being wailed on, so the position of tank affords some added bonus (riposting for them is great I hear). My logs show him being not that far behind in damage most of the time... I'm always just a little higher (usually 10 points higher or so, with all being equal).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My role in this group has always been to lay down as much damage as possible, and then occasionally tank or offtank when the situations calls for it. If needed, I can turtle up and barely get hit when our zerker bleeds too much. I've used my fear taunt and minimez to great effect in keeping down the nasty group fights. Hell.. we took down Lord Everling only because I feared on guy, mez'd another, and offtank'd them both while they wailed on the Lord himself. Both us tanks were only level 30 at the time... and to think we wiped the first time with a 36 Paladin tanking because they didn't want me to offtank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh.. speaking of which. You guys want to know a good use for Feign Death for your group? Make sure you have a summoned rez item on you at all times, and make sure your group is prepared for you to Feign Death when things go south. I've personally saved a total wipe in zones like Nektropos (no evac, btw) because of this tactic, multiple times.</DIV> <DIV>Gee, what's easier... wiping and waiting 3 days (now 2 hours) to go back in? Or having one guy FD and rez the healer once the coast is clear and in 5 minutes be ready to fight again. Heck, it can even be better than evac since you don't have to fight all the way back in... although you'll want everyone to die in a "safer" area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lesson? ALWAYS get a rez item from your group healer. You are about as important as a scout with Evac... if not more so, depending on the situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Edit*</DIV> <DIV>One thing I've noticed with my experience at parsing... there are a lot of things that can screw up your logs of other's damage output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Proximity:</STRONG> If you aren't close enough, you will miss out on some of the damage people do.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Lag:</STRONG> If you or the other person is experiencing lag, two things can happen... you will miss their display of damage <EM>despite</EM> it affecting the creature, and lag can affect a person's ability at having their specials go off.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Chat window screwups:</STRONG> So you don't have spell effects being displayed... that means it's not going into log, and now all wizards show up with crap DPS. How often does your chat window get mixed up and you have to set things back to normal? Are you sure it's really displaying right?</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Unnamed damage:</STRONG> It's listed directly in some parser webpages... some spells have no name attached to the damage! If there's no name, there's no way to determine who is doing that damage, and someone is losing out on their true DPS. I'm thinking of damage shields and probably quite a few dots. Sucks to be wizards... again. Good thing ALL bruiser specials are named (i've checked).</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Timing and Misses: </STRONG>So you use all your huge hitters at the first few moments of the fight. You do tons of damage, and suddenly the mob drops dead! I've hit 200+ DPS doing that before, when in a group facing solo mobs on the way to group mobs I've seen it frequently. DPS is damage per second... remember that.</DIV> <DIV>Ever have it set to "when you get group xp", then fight a solo mob, run around for 5 minutes, THEN kill a group? Everyone's DPS is like 2 or 3 because it's <EM>still counting</EM> during those 5 minutes.</DIV> <DIV>This one is one of the BIGGEST killers of legitimizing the parsed information.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And last, but definately not least, how the combat is being approached. If someone is in the middle of typing (to group, or anything else), they may miss out on the initial boost of damage at the beginning.. or in the middle even. They may get our of their routine they do, so their timers are all off from their "perfectly timed for maximum DPS" routine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's so very different from the guy who starts the fight looking at the realtime DPS.. because he's started the fight looking at maximizing his DPS.</DIV> <DIV>I've gone into some fights trying to type out to not get to close to such'n'such mob, and to not click on whatever item.. I miss out on a lot of my potential DPS. I've dropped from 80 DPS normally in a fight to 40 DPS because I started the combat typing, pause to move around and start some specials, finish typing, do more specials, respond to the responses to my typing, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Face it.. a lot of things can blow your parsed DPS all out of whack... I don't use it for anything legitimate, just to see how well something is working, if HO's are affecting our progress/worth it, etc. The necro wanted to know if his summoned undead dogs not only looked cool, but were worth the casting... a ctrl+V later and he was happily surprised.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd take any parsed info we as players can do as worth a grain of salt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>01-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:54 AM</span>

[D]

<DIV>As I've been saying for a while now....if you don't like your parsed damage get a new parser.</DIV>

[Slartic]

<DIV>You're all crazy. It doesn't matter what the Bruiser is best at or if he can tank aswell as that full plate tank or outdamage that mage. What really matters is that you're having fun and enjoying your class.  If you're spending all your time concerned with doing the most damage or trying to out tank a plate tank you're missing out on the fun.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just play in your guild or usual group or even in a pickup group and be the best bruiser you can whether you're needed to do damage or tank a mob or do some crowd control. As long as you're having fun and you're helping your group stay alive and kill the mobs then your job is done.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember people it is just a game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slarti.</DIV>

[Manuel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> furok wrote:<BR> <DIV>Although i agree we can tank, as been previously stated, that has alot to do with how you have built your character, if you like me focus on str in favor of agi youll suck hardcore without an agi buffer in the group, and then you should (like me) have someone else tank as long as the beforesaid group does not have an agi buffer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The impact agility have on our overall tanking cant be stressed enough, as a barbarian focusin on strength im in the low end spectrum but i have no problems whatsoever of tanking when agility buffed, unbuffed though im tanking like a caster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think alot of the confusion regarding our ability to tank is based on the fact that you have certain players playing large strength focused races like myself , and on the other side you have small agility based bruisers. The strength based players claim they have a hard time tanking while the agility crew have no problems at all buffed or unbuffed, so the real problem is not with the class as the class is only a set of skills, how you then use those skills is up to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to focus on doing damage , well then go with strength crank it up as high as you possible can , if you on the other hand want to be a efficent tank then search high and low for the armor pieces that favors agility, and dont forget theres a middle ground which tries to keep str,agi and sta at roughly the same level, and as i advance in levels (41 atm) i find myself moving more and more towards the "middle ground" type of bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skull</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This guy nailed it. End of that story.</P> <P>*recalls the disturbed drooling monk*</P> <P>Oh, and BTW, Cage go play your MONK and leave us BRUISERS alone you are cluelessly lost. (Hint hint monks=bruisers wroooooong!)</P> <P>Someone show this poor chap the door *smirk*<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Manueles wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> furok wrote:<BR> <DIV>Although i agree we can tank, as been previously stated, that has alot to do with how you have built your character, if you like me focus on str in favor of agi youll suck hardcore without an agi buffer in the group, and then you should (like me) have someone else tank as long as the beforesaid group does not have an agi buffer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The impact agility have on our overall tanking cant be stressed enough, as a barbarian focusin on strength im in the low end spectrum but i have no problems whatsoever of tanking when agility buffed, unbuffed though im tanking like a caster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think alot of the confusion regarding our ability to tank is based on the fact that you have certain players playing large strength focused races like myself , and on the other side you have small agility based bruisers. The strength based players claim they have a hard time tanking while the agility crew have no problems at all buffed or unbuffed, so the real problem is not with the class as the class is only a set of skills, how you then use those skills is up to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to focus on doing damage , well then go with strength crank it up as high as you possible can , if you on the other hand want to be a efficent tank then search high and low for the armor pieces that favors agility, and dont forget theres a middle ground which tries to keep str,agi and sta at roughly the same level, and as i advance in levels (41 atm) i find myself moving more and more towards the "middle ground" type of bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skull</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This guy nailed it. End of that story.</P> <P>*recalls the disturbed drooling monk*</P> <P>Oh, and BTW, Cage go play your MONK and leave us BRUISERS alone you are cluelessly lost. (Hint hint monks=bruisers wroooooong!)</P> <P>Someone show this poor chap the door *smirk*<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Who is Cage?  </P> <P>I'm sorry but Monks and Bruisers while being different subclasses wear the same armor, equip the same items and play the same way.  You get an offensive/defensive stance, so do we.  You get taunts, so do we.  You get a multi-attack high damage art, so do we.</P> <P>By the way, I don't drool.  Heh.  Way to be immature when trying to prove a point (which you still haven't done <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, while agility is a big factor, its not the end all be all of tanking at all.  Its far more important to have defensive buffs to allow you to buff your defense/deflection/parry up as much as possible.  Every 5pts added to those 3 skills is like your character having the defenses of a character a higher lvl than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel sorry for all you bruisers focusing so much on damage doing and being DPS because you'll feel pretty useless when your damage gets nerfed (and it will - ours probably will to) just like a whole lot of berzerkers who thought that DPS was their main role.  You know the ones you hear about rerolling.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>01-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:49 PM</span>

[Reol]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lordofdragons wrote:<BR><BR>Quote from Moorgard:<BR><BR>Some posters in this thread want berserkers to be a class that can switch between <FONT color=#ffff00>being a tank and DPS class at will, on par with a scout or mage. </FONT>That's like a wizard asking to be able to tank if they don't use their damage spells, which is not at all what their role is intended to be.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Fighters are meant to fall behind mages and scouts in terms of DPS, while being at the top of the heap when it comes to tanking. </FONT>Every class should be aware that if they have any ability that disrupts this relationship, it will be adjusted. Because we want to anger our customers? No, because it's required for the health of the game.<BR><BR>Berserkers can wear the same armor and wield the same shields as guardians. There are no hidden mitigation bonuses for either class, so a berserker and a guardian of the same level, stats, and skills with the same armor/shield combo will have the same base avoidance and mitigation. Guardians have arts that give them increased defensive capabilities, while berserkers have arts that give them increased offense. That's the key difference between the two warrior classes. Keep in mind that if you play a berserker and are not using a shield while tanking, you're missing out on a huge part of the tank's damage avoidance capability. Crusader and warrior classes are intended to use shields while acting as a tank.<BR><BR>Some posters are citing the two-sentence class description on the website as a definition of everything the class should be: "Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy." Some of you have invested your own emotional reactions into what you feel this is supposed to mean, but those descriptions were written to give lore-based flavor, not define everything a class is. It can just as easily be argued that berserkers as they stand today fit that description just fine.<BR><BR>Berserkers continue to be effective tanks that deal out strong DPS. <FONT color=#ffff00>They were considerably overpowered before, because a few key abilities allowed them to surpass the damage output of mages and scouts.</FONT> I realize you're looking for me to say that the class is now underpowered, but testing does not show that to be the case. Although bugs will be fixed and more arts will be adjusted, it is unlikely that berserkers will see a major DPS increase.<BR><BR>I realize this is not what most berserkers will want to hear, but I'm trying to give you a direct, honest response.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Those are his comments.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>What seems stupid to me on the part of the EQ Dev team is that we have gotten this far into a live game and they are tweaking basic stuff like this.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There.  You lose.</P> <P>Now will you please shush up about it.</P> <P>That is from Moorgard, a dev and also a bruiser.</P> <P>Fighters (bruiser = fighter) are supposed to be tanks first.  Their DPS is NOT supposed to bypass that of a scout or mage class (the true EQ2 DD).</P> <P>Since your own logs confirm you are outdamaging scouts/mages be ready for a reduction in DPS similiar to what the berzerkers suffered.</P> <P>You are a bruiser, a fighter, a tank.</P> <P>Deal with it or reroll.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>My Problem with your logic is this.......and I think its this....first off...were not the same kind of tank that a berserker and guardian is....we are an avoidance, block tank...not a mititgation tank....we get hit..and we KNOW it. Now ontop of having the DPS readjusted....SOE in there all infinite stupidity...has changed the rate at which mobs can hit to be on par with a players hit rate.....Well unless you all have some sort of magic coating on you body...please explain to me how a Bruiser is supposed to tank with this recent change to the game...</P> <P>In essence we are getting it from the offensive and defensive side....and whether or not they want to admit it..or you soe bj artists want to stand up for the company WE are paying to play...the game is messed...when they are rebalancing such key aspects of characters, sure for now till dps nerfs occur we are probably still soloing ok....but what about after....are we going to be desired to help out in grps ...what do we offer...we can't tank anymore....oh dps...hmmm thats going to be short lived. </P> <P>So explain to me how you think that this makes the class still viable at the 40+ lvls where it really counts?</P>

[Manuel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Who is Cage? </P> <P><EM>---Im sorry if didnt get your name right, Cage. </EM> </P> <P>I'm sorry but Monks and Bruisers while being different subclasses wear the same armor, equip the same items and play the same way.  You get an offensive/defensive stance, so do we.  You get taunts, so do we.  You get a multi-attack high damage art, so do we.</P> <P>By the way, I don't drool.  Heh.  Way to be immature when trying to prove a point (which you still haven't done <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <P>---<EM>The point is proben beyond all need, Cage. You monkness/bruiserlessness is enough. No we do not get the same skills, no we do not get the same relation of offensive/deffensive... no Cage, no.<BR></EM></P> <DIV>Besides, while agility is a big factor, its not the end all be all of tanking at all.  Its far more important to have defensive buffs to allow you to buff your defense/deflection/parry up as much as possible.  Every 5pts added to those 3 skills is like your character having the defenses of a character a higher lvl than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel sorry for all you bruisers focusing so much on damage doing and being DPS because you'll feel pretty useless when your damage gets nerfed (and it will - ours probably will to) just like a whole lot of berzerkers who thought that DPS was their main role.  You know the ones you hear about rerolling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---<EM>I like the game as it is now, Cage. I really dont care much about the whole DPS vs Tank issue, I do my game regardless... What is lame is that people like you force up some stupid canon-like Law of The Game (like The Moorgard Quote) to say we shouldnt be DPSing and force the nerf bat upon us... Specially envy rotten monks who honestly dont get the DPS power we hold. Let us be, we want no nerf bat! Go away!</EM></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>01-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:49 PM</SPAN><BR> <P> <HR> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Manueles wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Who is Cage? </P> <P><EM>---Im sorry if didnt get your name right, Cage. </EM> </P> <P>I'm sorry but Monks and Bruisers while being different subclasses wear the same armor, equip the same items and play the same way.  You get an offensive/defensive stance, so do we.  You get taunts, so do we.  You get a multi-attack high damage art, so do we.</P> <P>By the way, I don't drool.  Heh.  Way to be immature when trying to prove a point (which you still haven't done <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <P>---<EM>The point is proben beyond all need, Cage. You monkness/bruiserlessness is enough. No we do not get the same skills, no we do not get the same relation of offensive/deffensive... no Cage, no.<BR></EM></P> <DIV>Besides, while agility is a big factor, its not the end all be all of tanking at all.  Its far more important to have defensive buffs to allow you to buff your defense/deflection/parry up as much as possible.  Every 5pts added to those 3 skills is like your character having the defenses of a character a higher lvl than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel sorry for all you bruisers focusing so much on damage doing and being DPS because you'll feel pretty useless when your damage gets nerfed (and it will - ours probably will to) just like a whole lot of berzerkers who thought that DPS was their main role.  You know the ones you hear about rerolling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---<EM>I like the game as it is now, Cage. I really dont care much about the whole DPS vs Tank issue, I do my game regardless... What is lame is that people like you force up some stupid canon-like Law of The Game (like The Moorgard Quote) to say we shouldnt be DPSing and force the nerf bat upon us... Specially envy rotten monks who honestly dont get the DPS power we hold. Let us be, we want no nerf bat! Go away!</EM></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>01-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:49 PM</SPAN><BR> <P> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Monks can DPS just as well as bruisers.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>We can still tank 40+.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks and bruisers are similiar, sorry you don't see that.  You are the offensive (albeit slight) and we are the defensive (albeit slight) brawler.  The same as the guardian/berzerker and the Paladin/Shadowknight.</DIV>

[fur]

<DIV>Actually as a bruiser focusing on doing damage (str based) i have no plans of ever rerolling, while they might lower our damage (sceptical about that, if scout tier 5 poison starts to work they will vastly outdamage us" IF "they use poison, i still run across scouts who after i ask em what poison they are using replies -Poison??!?We can use poison? Oh kewl how?-). Even if they should reduce our damage we will still be #1 of the warrior arch, and going all out damage will put me not far behind scouts/wizzys.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can live with that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ps. Wizards need dps increase.</DIV>

[Drfeelgood0]

<DIV>I play a defiler and I can tell you that bruiser makes <STRONG><U>excellent </U></STRONG>main tank, in fact from a healer point of view, its the best warrior subclass to group with .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you upgrade your taunt spell to App3 or higher, there is absolutely no problem at all with holding aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped this afternoon with 1 dirge 26, 1 assassin 28 and 1 brawler 26 who happened to be MT while we were looking for another plate tank, because for most of groups  a MT should be berz, sk or guardian. We were killing group of 4 lvl 29 rumbleroots without any problem , groups of 2 lvl 29 ^ with ease. and at the end of the fight , I stil had 80 % of my mana</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once I debuffed the 2 lvl 29 ^ mobs, the brawler HP bar was staying full almost al the time, I just casted Spectral Guard ( lvl 26 ward ) on him after the first one was dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then a berzeker 26 joined the group and we had him being the MT , I can tell you that he did not stay MT for more than 1 fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a group of 4 lvl 29 no arrows mobs, I had to use 75% of mana to finish the encounter . I explained the situation to the group and I asked the brawler to be MT again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously I think the monk subclass is the best MT , the worst being the berzeker, guardian and SK makes ok MT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drfeelgood012 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I play a defiler and I can tell you that bruiser makes <STRONG><U>excellent </U></STRONG>main tank, in fact from a healer point of view, its the best warrior subclass to group with .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you upgrade your taunt spell to App3 or higher, there is absolutely no problem at all with holding aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped this afternoon with 1 dirge 26, 1 assassin 28 and 1 brawler 26 who happened to be MT while we were looking for another plate tank, because for most of groups  a MT should be berz, sk or guardian. We were killing group of 4 lvl 29 rumbleroots without any problem , groups of 2 lvl 29 ^ with ease. and at the end of the fight , I stil had 80 % of my mana</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once I debuffed the 2 lvl 29 ^ mobs, the brawler HP bar was staying full almost al the time, I just casted Spectral Guard ( lvl 26 ward ) on him after the first one was dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then a berzeker 26 joined the group and we had him being the MT , I can tell you that he did not stay MT for more than 1 fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a group of 4 lvl 29 no arrows mobs, I had to use 75% of mana to finish the encounter . I explained the situation to the group and I asked the brawler to be MT again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously I think the monk subclass is the best MT , the worst being the berzeker, guardian and SK makes ok MT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>ROFL where do some of you people come from? Crappy defilers are known in the game to cast wards at beginning of a fight and drawing so much aggro from it noone can get aggro off them till theyre dead. Anyone that says a guardian just makes an ok tank and bruisers make the best need to play with more people then the 4 they always group with.</P> <P> </P> <P>Gage I didnt realize you were a monk, no wonder your about as clueless about how monks/bruisers work as you are about everything else. Heres a hint for you Gage, go over to the forum marked as monk and tell them all the crap your saying here. </P>

[Mila]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Castor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> ROFL where do some of you people come from? Crappy defilers are known in the game to cast wards at beginning of a fight and drawing so much aggro from it noone can get aggro off them till theyre dead. Anyone that says a guardian just makes an ok tank and bruisers make the best need to play with more people then the 4 they always group with.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Gage I didnt realize you were a monk, no wonder your about as clueless about how monks/bruisers work as you are about everything else. Heres a hint for you Gage, go over to the forum marked as monk and tell them all the crap your saying here. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>omg castor, don't you have anything smart to say?</P> <P>please go to your SK forum and leave this one because obviously you are the one that is clueless making silly asumptions about a class you don't play, not just the bruiser but the defiler class too</P> <P>and just because you with your SK can't hold agro doesn't make defilers crappy, on the contrary it only shows that you are unable to hold agro and tank </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Castor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drfeelgood012 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I play a defiler and I can tell you that bruiser makes <STRONG><U>excellent </U></STRONG>main tank, in fact from a healer point of view, its the best warrior subclass to group with .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you upgrade your taunt spell to App3 or higher, there is absolutely no problem at all with holding aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped this afternoon with 1 dirge 26, 1 assassin 28 and 1 brawler 26 who happened to be MT while we were looking for another plate tank, because for most of groups  a MT should be berz, sk or guardian. We were killing group of 4 lvl 29 rumbleroots without any problem , groups of 2 lvl 29 ^ with ease. and at the end of the fight , I stil had 80 % of my mana</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once I debuffed the 2 lvl 29 ^ mobs, the brawler HP bar was staying full almost al the time, I just casted Spectral Guard ( lvl 26 ward ) on him after the first one was dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then a berzeker 26 joined the group and we had him being the MT , I can tell you that he did not stay MT for more than 1 fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a group of 4 lvl 29 no arrows mobs, I had to use 75% of mana to finish the encounter . I explained the situation to the group and I asked the brawler to be MT again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously I think the monk subclass is the best MT , the worst being the berzeker, guardian and SK makes ok MT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>ROFL where do some of you people come from? Crappy defilers are known in the game to cast wards at beginning of a fight and drawing so much aggro from it noone can get aggro off them till theyre dead. Anyone that says a guardian just makes an ok tank and bruisers make the best need to play with more people then the 4 they always group with.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Gage I didnt realize you were a monk</FONT>, <FONT color=#ff66cc>no wonder your about as clueless about how monks/bruisers work as you are about everything else</FONT>. Heres a <FONT color=#ff0000>hint for you Gage, go over to the forum marked as monk and tell them all the crap your saying here. </FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I know, you kept saying I was a scout ;/</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Ha Ha.  You calling me clueless?  That's great.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I post in the monk forum a lot, you ever post in the SK forum?</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV>

[Cast]

<DIV>rofl, someone found one of my accounts and you assume to know what and where I play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Go over to the defiler forums and see how many are called clueless for not knowing when to use wards and when not to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards when cast build aggro on whoever casted them, not who theyre cast on. We did the testing for it now you go try it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=3187" target=_blank><SPAN>Gage-Mikel</SPAN></A><BR><SPAN>Champion<BR>Posts: 1314<BR>Registered: 11-09-2004<IMG height=8 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=150 border=0><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=3187" target=_blank><IMG alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/icons/EQ2/eq2_black.gif" border=0></A><BR><IMG height=8 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=150 border=0><BR> <P>Viewed 7 times<BR></SPAN><BR></P><IMG height=1 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=1 border=0><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR>Based on what I see comparing damamge I would tend to beleive there going to keep monk damamge the same and adjust scout damamge.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well either one would server the same end purpose.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No, reducing the monks damamge would put them below other fighter types, sence that would cause other issues.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ah good point.  I guess you are right and they will raise scout/mage damage and leave the fighter tree alone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now why on the monk boards do you say exactly the opposite of what you pop off about here Gage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Castor on <SPAN class=date_text>01-31-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:28 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Castor on <span class=date_text>01-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Castor wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now why on the monk boards do you say exactly the opposite of what you pop off about here Gage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I post the same stuff everywhere, always have.</P> <P>You know nothing of how wards work, you've proved that with a few of your posts about bruisers tanking, kthx.<BR></P>

[Cast]

<DIV>rofl. Tell us all how wards work then all knowing one. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And no you dont say the same thing on both boards. </DIV>

[Yathrin]

Its simple why Wards work better on a Bruiser/monk than a plate tank. Wards prevent damage BEFORE the plate armor gets a chance to mitigate the damage. Thus an avoidance tank who wears less armor gets a bigger benefit from them as they last much longer. Templars and Inquisitors on the other hand are going to have the most trouble with an avoidance tank due to the low mitigation when they do get hit often out damaging the reactive heal forcing them to add direct heals to keep up. Its fairly common knowledge that certain healers work better with certain tanks. The shaman/brawler combo is awesome and smart shamen that have grouped with brawlers will notice the difference.

[Blackguard]

This thread unnecessarily turned into bickering. Thus, it has been locked.