Another post by Moorguard regarding berzerker changes

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><P><HR>HPotter wrote: <P></P><P>I choise to play Zerker because i wanted to be a tank for my friends and could fill in a lil DPS if we lost a scout or wizard. My first choice Is always going to be tank second dps. This last update has put a lot of problems in our class. i used togo out with my friends and we would eat up mobs before they ate us even though i was taking in a lot of damg my DPS was keeping it balnced. Now with our dps nerfed to nothing we still take in the same damg with nothing in return. </P><P>An example to help yousee where i'm comingfrom. One of my friend is a gaurdain same lvl as i am 26. We went down to Thunder steps and tested our skill. The amount od damg he can tank far out weights what i can. Our healer spends about 3/4 of there power to keep me alive where as he only spends 1/4 to keep the gaurdain alive. Please look into this because as of right now AC has no roll in our class. I seem to be hit for the same amount of damg no matter what my ac is. Thanx.<BR><HR><P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Some posters in this thread want berserkers to be a class that can switch between being a tank and DPS class at will, on par with a scout or mage. That's like a wizard asking to be able to tank if they don't use their damage spells, which is not at all what their role is intended to be.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Fighters are meant to fall behind mages and scouts in terms of DPS, while being at the top of the heap when it comes to tanking. Every class should be aware that if they have any ability that disrupts this relationship, it will be adjusted. Because we want to anger our customers? No, because it's required for the health of the game.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Berserkers can wear the same armor and wield the same shields as guardians. There are no hidden mitigation bonuses for either class, so a berserker and a guardian of the same level, stats, and skills with the same armor/shield combo will have the same base avoidance and mitigation. Guardians have arts that give them increased defensive capabilities, while berserkers have arts that give them increased offense. That's the key difference between the two warrior classes. Keep in mind that if you play a berserker and are not using a shield while tanking, you're missing out on a huge part of the tank's damage avoidance capability. Crusader and warrior classes are intended to use shields while acting as a tank.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Some posters are citing the two-sentence class description on the website as a definition of everything the class should be: "Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy." Some of you have invested your own emotional reactions into what you feel this is supposed to mean, but those descriptions were written to give lore-based flavor, not define everything a class is. It can just as easily be argued that berserkers as they stand today fit that description just fine.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Berserkers continue to be effective tanks that deal out strong DPS. They were considerably overpowered before, because a few key abilities allowed them to surpass the damage output of mages and scouts. I realize you're looking for me to say that the class is now underpowered, but testing does not show that to be the case. Although bugs will be fixed and more arts will be adjusted, it is unlikely that berserkers will see a major DPS increase.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I realize this is not what most berserkers will want to hear, but I'm trying to give you a direct, honest response.</DIV><hr></blockquote>

[Jezekie]

I keep thinking about us vs the scouts, if we are infact meant to be doing less DPS then the scouts that could get me to start fearing the bat. Now this view could either be based on the majority of scout classes not playing their class to the fullest, because a majority falls below our damage often, though a well played assassin shoots way past us, which leads me to belive alot out there that plays a scout is slacking too much for their own good. Or it could just be that we do too much damage/they do too little/something is borked skill wise for them or us.Thoughts?

[Mihon]

<DIV>We all know what is coming, just may as well get your head ready for it, I would like to think that scouts/mages slacking is the case, but I doubt it.</DIV>

[Jow]

<DIV>Though many may hate me for this, i do feel we are going to be feeling the nerf bat soon. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been parsing using the "statalizer" and from my findings I can say without a doubt that a nerf is coming soon to our DPS. For the past week I have sustained the top DPS in all my groups. A few times I have been matched by a ranger or an assassin in DPS, but that usually only happens a few fights a night. Wizards and other nuking classes have performed poorly vs me in the DPS department and add to the fact they are also fragile, something needs to be done for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nukers for instance are supposed to sacrifice their fragility for the ability to do major DPS. Unfortunately, from what I have parsed thats not the case. I see an unfair advantage that I can out DPS the DPS classes, tank, and shed aggro and provide utility. I love my class, dont get me wrong. It's just that for the past week when Im in groups and they find out I'm parsing they all want to know their DPS after every fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I spit out the numbers, i often start to feel guilty for telling them the truth of the numbers because it consistantly shows me #1 DPS or at least tied for #1. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night I was parsing an average of 55 DPS per fight in a lvl 32 group in ROV and about 59 per fight in RE. The assasin in our group was averaging 48-50 with some spikes to 55-58 every once in awhile. The wizard was pulling in at the 40 range with a few spikes up into high 40's. Guardian was down around in the 20 area. This same pattern has been reflected in every group I have been in over the last week.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[pb]

<DIV>These games are all about balance and at the moment, we are in a period of major rebalancing.  Bruiser, have had to try very hard to get recognised by the masses, and I believe with that comes us all making an extra effort with play strategy and purchsing of gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts are the assumed dps classm, so their lack of dps may stem from an apathy towards making an effort.   Mages.....is a tough one. recently Wizzy's got a slap about, their cast time and AOE got punkd, and I sincerely hope it gets put back to how it was.  rumour has it exploiters ( bots ) were using 5 Wizzy's and 1 healer to cause some serious destruction.  So hopefully the next round of rebalalncing, sees the VLA wearers, return too their place as high dps, crowd control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Face it guys..we cant have everything.   If we had to pick, more tanking or more dps, what would you pick...? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the moment, speaking from my own experience, we tank very very well ( in some situations we are the best tank. We get our hate through hitting them so [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hard they cant take it.  Our  area taunt is the weak point, but with group buffs, self heal, and area attack, it can be managed) and we have the highest dps.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Using combatstats (still not convinced its 100% accurate)  At level 35 I hit 106 dps in RV.   I average 90 dps with a bard in the group.   As much as i love it, these games are built on balance, and without it, it will fail.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The devs must NOT hit the NERF bat too hard - the people who are clued up and make an effort to buy the best gear, will always perform above their station - dont nerf them, they earnt it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Educate everyone else, on how to use their class properly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by pboy on <span class=date_text>01-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:06 AM</span>

[Tir]

<DIV>Just wanted to mention something concerning bruisers and monks and their tanking cababilities. While we may at some point be adjusted there is one major difference compared to Guardians and Berserkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have "light armor" while both of the above mentioned classes can use "heavy armor" and "shields" which has a major boost effect to their ac and tanking cababilities. If we get heavy armor then I would consider that  our dps is too high...for now I think that we are pretty balanced compared to other fighter classes.</DIV>

[Reol]

<DIV>If they do infact nerf the bruiser...it should be a positive that we are going to still stay at the top of the dps for fighters, if we lose that...then they would have to adjust it...because as moorgard said....monks/bruiser are highest fighter dps classes.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Reolas on <span class=date_text>01-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:06 AM</span>

[D]

<DIV> <DIV>If you are tanking then your damage drops a TON. Bruiser has an opertunity to deal more damage while tanking than other classes because our damage taking skills rely more on pary and riposte than the other shield wearing tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think our damage is perfect as it is. Honestly - it's the mages' damage/power ratio that needs to be raised.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By our skill set descriptions alone we can see that we were meant to have a strong spot both in front(tanking) and behind mobs. We have positional attacks and CC skills to use when not tanking, and our multi hit skills when they aren't parried should be crazy good damage. Scouts are traditionaly a super high damage potential class that requires tactics and teamwork to see that high damage. Mages <EM>should </EM>be able to dump enough damage onto a mob before their power runs out to get them hate easily if they go overboard...atm end game spells aren't doing enough damage to do this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When standing behind a mob just using our skills in no coordinated manner our dps should be roughly on par with your average scout doing the same thing, but when that scout starts organizing HO's and shifing HO's in the party's favor their damage output should go up a ton.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 'fighters should tank and not be true DD' attitude is nice, but where does that leave the fighters that aren't tanks when your average group only needs one tank?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be very shallow design if they made it so fighters only role was taking damage when the encounter design limits one member as damage taker for your average team.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bruiser class is PERFECT - we can be flexible in what position we play in teams and we have other tools to help make fights go easier(short mez, fear, ect.). Our limitations of getting hit harder when we do get hit as well as being limited to mostly crushing type weapons and light armor I feel balance us out nicely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before they decrease any other class they need to consider increasing HO effectiveness(or ease of use) and increase mage damage post their mid 30's.</DIV></DIV>

[pb]

<DIV>5*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very nicely put, would be ncie to hear moorguard weigh in with this thought.he is a Bruiser after all.</DIV>

[Darqz]

<DIV> <DIV>This is probably one of the most intelligent posts I've read.  My hat is off to you.  With this being said they need to upgrade the damage output of the SK class and raise the damage mitigation of the Guardian class.  Yes you guys are balanced, but too balanced.  In a game like this you have to realize that you have to give up to receive.  For example I play an Assassin.  While I wear light and medium armor I don't expect to take hits like a guardian.  What I do expect to do is a helluva lot of damage in the melee range.  Believe it or not my HOs do not perform my mighty damage.  My damage comes from attacking from behind.  You guys think your perfect because your the best of the best right now.  You can tank and do a helluva lot of damage with no side effects.  You should be a tank but not at the level of a Gaurdian/Beserker or even that of an SK/Paladin.  Sorry if you disagree with me but yes they do have AC from Heavy plates and such, but they do not have the abilities you guys have to dodge and parry.  You guys get hit less but you should really feel it when you do get hit.  Sorry, thats kinda the way I feel.  As a former SK from both EQ1 and EQ2 I use to feel it when I got hit from behind or from the side.  The fact that I use to see Brawlers take only slightly more damage than I did fighting the same mobs when I played my SK use to bother me.  My only consultation was that I had more HP for a while.  The fact you are doing damage like that of the scout classes again good for you but you can not honestly tell me that it is fair you have the best of both worlds.  It would be like me wanting them to change the SK class to do more damaging magic effects because they are holy nights or me wanting my Assassin to take better damage just because I wear medium armor.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we keep to your statement of "The 'fighters should tank and not be true DD' attitude is nice, but where does that leave the fighters that aren't tanks when your average group only needs one tank?" then let all fighters do a major switch between DD and defense.  Make it so that if your in a group with say a 35 bruiser and a 33 SK and 32 Gaurdian the SK and the gaurdian can do higher damage at the cost of thier ac (yes I know 2 handed and dual wield weapons do more damage, but I'm talking damage perportionate to the class like your talking damage for your class).  Kind of the same way mages should get utility spells to buff other members of the group more like the healer classes when they don't want to do DD.  While we are at it lets make Healers do more nukes so they can do awesome damage incase there is another healer in the group.  Yes they get some but I'm talking that of a mage level.  Sorry to be sarcastic but thats kind of what it sounds like to me your saying when you say Bruisers should get the DPS of a scout and still be able to take damage like that of an SK.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your statement also doesn't quiet fit because if your fighters are true DD ontop of that where does that put other classes such as scouts that don't offer anything but DD and maybe an escape route when the fight goes the wrong way.  Yes scouts can spin the wheel but lets face it right now HOs are dependant upon group styles.  If you have a fight where there are multiple mobs and the gaurdian is taunting everything to gain agro your not going to pull of a successful HO right off the bat.  Taking the time to spin the wheel also means that the other classes loose some of their DPS to benefit the good of the group which is what the HO is designed for.  If you don't believe me get a group of a scout, fighter, healer, and caster together.  Then tell the caster not cast till after the healer has triggered the wheel so you can get that "uber" HO.  Sure you pull off an amazing HO that heals the group while dotting the mob or doing an amazing damage that the group shares but for that few seconds while people are getting that HO and trying not to break it means one less cast or one less damage attack.  Again this is for the benefit of the group.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes help people play their class better but at the same time realize that when you play your class you have benefits and deficits that you bring to a group.  If one class was as perfect as you say it is why ever have other classes in your group?</DIV></DIV>

[D]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darqzen wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>This is probably one of the most intelligent posts I've read.  My hat is off to you.  With this being said they need to upgrade the damage output of the SK class and raise the damage mitigation of the Guardian class.  Yes you guys are balanced, but too balanced.  In a game like this you have to realize that you have to give up to receive.  For example I play an Assassin.  While I wear light and medium armor I don't expect to take hits like a guardian.  What I do expect to do is a helluva lot of damage in the melee range.  Believe it or not my HOs do not perform my mighty damage.  My damage comes from attacking from behind.  You guys think your perfect because your the best of the best right now.  You can tank and do a helluva lot of damage with no side effects.  You should be a tank but not at the level of a Gaurdian/Beserker or even that of an SK/Paladin.  Sorry if you disagree with me but yes they do have AC from Heavy plates and such, but they do not have the abilities you guys have to dodge and parry.  You guys get hit less but you should really feel it when you do get hit.  Sorry, thats kinda the way I feel.  As a former SK from both EQ1 and EQ2 I use to feel it when I got hit from behind or from the side.  The fact that I use to see Brawlers take only slightly more damage than I did fighting the same mobs when I played my SK use to bother me.  My only consultation was that I had more HP for a while.  The fact you are doing damage like that of the scout classes again good for you but you can not honestly tell me that it is fair you have the best of both worlds.  It would be like me wanting them to change the SK class to do more damaging magic effects because they are holy nights or me wanting my Assassin to take better damage just because I wear medium armor.  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Like I said...when I tank my damage drops a ton. I spend most of my time taunting buffing and fearing mobs as well as starting some HO's in smaller groups(as well as getting parried/riposted on =/). I don't know what kind of damage warriors and crusaders take compared to me - except that my HP will be steady for a long time - until the mob stuns me and lands some specials then it drops to less than 50% before I can be cured. I also don't know what kinda of damage warriors and crusaders do since I've never had a war higher than 15, but I do think that both classes are very cool and I would be a warrior now if there wasn't such a glut of them(guild said they needed bruisers and had enough guards/zerks/SK's so that's what I went when I decided on fighter).</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we keep to your statement of "The 'fighters should tank and not be true DD' attitude is nice, but where does that leave the fighters that aren't tanks when your average group only needs one tank?" then let all fighters do a major switch between DD and defense.  Make it so that if your in a group with say a 35 bruiser and a 33 SK and 32 Gaurdian the SK and the gaurdian can do higher damage at the cost of thier ac (yes I know 2 handed and dual wield weapons do more damage, but I'm talking damage perportionate to the class like your talking damage for your class).  Kind of the same way mages should get utility spells to buff other members of the group more like the healer classes when they don't want to do DD.  While we are at it lets make Healers do more nukes so they can do awesome damage incase there is another healer in the group.  Yes they get some but I'm talking that of a mage level.  Sorry to be sarcastic but thats kind of what it sounds like to me your saying when you say Bruisers should get the DPS of a scout and still be able to take damage like that of an SK.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Bruiser has stances much like zerker from my understanding. If I'm not in the right stance or have any buffs on my my HP drops as fast or faster than a healers. Bruiser is really only as uber when tanking as the buffs we have on us. Bruiser doesn't have poison, can't shift HO's, and has skills that don't refresh nearly as fast as a scout's. Notice I also said that when both are standing side by side using their skills in an uncoordinated fashion their output should be similar maybe even slightly in favor of the fighter...and yes I think idealy any fighter should be able to straight up melee from behind for decent damage - crusaders have an advantage over other fighters because of spells.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your statement also doesn't quiet fit because if your fighters are true DD ontop of that where does that put other classes such as scouts that don't offer anything but DD and maybe an escape route when the fight goes the wrong way.  Yes scouts can spin the wheel but lets face it right now HOs are dependant upon group styles.  If you have a fight where there are multiple mobs and the gaurdian is taunting everything to gain agro your not going to pull of a successful HO right off the bat.  Taking the time to spin the wheel also means that the other classes loose some of their DPS to benefit the good of the group which is what the HO is designed for.  If you don't believe me get a group of a scout, fighter, healer, and caster together.  Then tell the caster not cast till after the healer has triggered the wheel so you can get that "uber" HO.  Sure you pull off an amazing HO that heals the group while dotting the mob or doing an amazing damage that the group shares but for that few seconds while people are getting that HO and trying not to break it means one less cast or one less damage attack.  Again this is for the benefit of the group. <FONT color=#ffff00> This is I think one of the big things that needs to be fixed. HO damage and/or benefits should be stupendous - and to some degree they are, but they really aren't as useful as spamming skills in most cases. With increased HO benefit it would move the play style more towards what the devs originaly said it would be - more tactics and planning for much higher reward than zerging skills. In a perfect world you would have healers and mages asking fighters and scouts to start certain HO's by name because they feel the effect would benefit the team...as of now few magic users know much about them...few scouts do too :smileysad:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes help people play their class better but at the same time realize that when you play your class you have benefits and deficits that you bring to a group.  If one class was as perfect as you say it is why ever have other classes in your group?<FONT color=#ffff00> I did not mean to imply that any class should be able to tank or heal AND deal heavy damage at the same time(which I personally don't - I don't know about others), but did most certainly suggest that ideally to me fighters should be able to switch into melee DD mode while standing behind a mob to avoid parry/ripostes as well as switching stances or tactics(I don't know about crusaders - you have so many defensive spells as well that you could possibly replace a second healer - I know that SK wards have made me pretty hard to injure). Yes, I also do mean that scouts and fighters should have simmilar damage when the team isn't using HO's - because imo HO's should be more important and scout shifting should have a HUGE impact on that...big enough to make a scout in every group necessary if only for that.</FONT></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Anyway, I do feel that if you just read the spell descriptions as well as HO descriptions that there is a very nice balance as well as room for multiple same job members in groups as long as they are of difference sub classes(as in I would prefer a wizard+warlock over 2 wizards anyday - same for fighters). The imbalance is coming more from botched spells (compared to their descriptions) and lack of HO effectiveness.</P> <P>Because there are so many factors contributing to damage I don't put much faith in posted parser results such as "39 bruiser outdamages 45 brigand - see my parser!" They read like tabloid headlines and get much the same results when taken seriously.<BR></P>

[Roddy]

Staight out anyone that compares dps whlie using parsing programs without telling the othre person they are parsing are just idiots. You cant compare unless everyone knows ur parsing and goes all out. Sometimes osme people are ninja and othres jut dont hit as many buttons. Also just because we are fighters doesnt mean we cant do damage. If we werent sopsoed to do damage why the hell call us fighters and why the hell call us bruisers. If the nerf isnt here yet then stop bringing it up. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and so u know bruisers already got nerfed in the worst way they took out our heal power cut it down and also have that big timer on it.

[Darqz]

<DIV>DVT,</DIV> <DIV>  Thank you for being respectful on your repost.  I did not mean any disrespect when I was posting to you.  Its good to see civilized people on the boards for a change.  I will take your word for it if you say this is so for your abilites such as your DPS dropping while tanking (my friend also said this happens but perhaps from my own sights and parsing I don't see it).  The way I look at it is you guys do on average hit of 40 -60 DPS while as an Assassin I do 11-15 DPS with bursts from my specails.  Unfortunately my specials don't refresh as fast as people think.  It actually takes 2x the power to do my special (I have to first cloak then attack) oppose to your uppercuts which do almost the same damage.  The crusader spells is a point that I did not really consider because I look at them not as spells but abilities similar to what other classes get.  Your hundred hands slap is similar to the poisons we use which is similar to the disease dots that a crusader class would use in my eyes.  Again you view it different.  What you say is true that the poisons do give Scouts and advantage.  That I will give to you. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  As for the HOs I agree with you a hundred percent.  I've almost given up trying to teach groups how to use them because of the blitz of finger pushing and the co-ordination and the randomization of the spin.  Trust me I have a book sitting next to my keyboard of what abilities will work with what HOs.  I've been compiling it since I took up the scout profession.  For the most part its just as is right now for the HOs when I get into groups.  We other do them as they come along or we just randomly do them.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  As for the crusaders we do get group buffs but aside from the ward we don't really have anything I would say (at least SK wise for the amount of time I played one) to be considered healing.  Most of the SK spells were group based buffs to give value to thier role as a support class.  There are DD and Dots in there along with life taps but for the most part they are Ranked 3rd in DPS in my book behind Bruisers/Monks and Zerkers.  I do disagree with you though that Fighters and Scouts should have similar DPS.  A scouts ability to spin the wheel is like a Fighters ability to taunt or take damage.  Like I said if Fighters are doing the same damage as Scouts then its kinda pointless to have a Scout if your not going to use HO spinning.  DPS is one of the defining points of Scouts.  Only Mages share that with the scouts.  You don't see Healing classes sharing healing spells with Mages or Fighter classes sharing the ability to tank with Scouts.  But hey everyone's vision of how classes should be are different.  I know if I was a designer I would have given the crusader classes at least a wider variety of weapons outside of hammers and swords.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Outside of this discussion I want everyone to walk away with what you said:</DIV> <DIV>"Anyway, I do feel that if you just read the spell descriptions as well as HO descriptions that there is a very nice balance as well as room for multiple same job members in groups as long as they are of difference sub classes(as in I would prefer a wizard+warlock over 2 wizards anyday - same for fighters). The imbalance is coming more from botched spells (compared to their descriptions) and lack of HO effectiveness. <P>Because there are so many factors contributing to damage I don't put much faith in posted parser results such as "39 bruiser outdamages 45 brigand - see my parser!" They read like tabloid headlines and get much the same results when taken seriously.<BR>"</P> <P> </P> <P>Good post</P></DIV>

[kakar]

<DIV>the damage is fine, ive seen wizards at my lvl blasting for 500's 600's  killing a green mob in 5 seconds while the same mob takes me like 20seconds.  assassins outdamage me a lot unless they suck or they didnt buy their adepts.  the damage varies a lot if people dont get their adepts and thats probably why you outdamage a lot of people or get outdamage a lot.  </DIV>

[Jow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RoddyRo wrote:<BR><STRONG>Staight out anyone that compares dps whlie using parsing programs without telling the othre person they are parsing are just idiots. </STRONG>You cant compare unless everyone knows ur parsing and goes all out. Sometimes osme people are ninja and othres jut dont hit as many buttons. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Jowaa wrote:</P> <P>It's just that for the past week when Im in groups and <STRONG>they find out I'm parsing they all want to know their DPS after every fight.</STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I spit out the numbers, i often start to feel guilty for telling them the truth of the numbers because it consistantly shows me #1 DPS or at least tied for #1. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I clearly stated that I have been telling the groups that Im parsing. And BTW you aren't an idiot if you parse without telling people because people should be performing to their fullest regardless of wether someone is parsing or not. </P> <P>In fact, i tend to trust numbers more when i dont tell them.</P> <P>You may ask why and I'll explain. </P> <P>I dont want to know how much DPS a certain class can do if they burn all their power to nothing on one fight. That has absolutley no bearing on the real game. </P> <P>What I want to see is what kind of damage is coming from these classes in a functional/efficient group environment. I dont want the wizard to go "oh crap he's parsing, i better blow my whole wad on this mob and draw aggro so i get good DPS". I want to see numbers that reflect what a normal group is doing through the coarse of an evening. I want to see how much damage each person is doing while performing their other functions. </P> <P>I can have a cleric go all out nuking and parse him, but that only tells me what happens when a cleric goes all out and doesnt heal. It tells me nothing as to what kind of damage is coming from him/her when its real. Take a bruiser for instance. I can parse myself going all out and spamming all my attack skills till my power is gone, but that doesnt give me the numbers I want because they are from a "fake" scenario in which all im doing is DPS and blwing my wad. In a real group im not going to blow my wad every fight and im going to be buffing and doing CC as well. This is where i want to see my stance in DPS. How much DPS do i contribute in a real group scenario.</P> <P>This was the main problem in EQ1. Someone would show some data from a small group of people in a rare scenario that has no bearing on the majority of the game at hand and it would get blown out of proportion because this 1% of the population appeared to have balancing issues. An assassin blowing his entire wad on one fight in an xp group is not a real game scenario, unless you are playing with [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</P> <P>Perfect example is the great monk nerf of EQ1. They took the data gathered from the 1% of the population of monks that happened to be wearing the best gear available in the game and said "hmm, this data shows that this 1% of the monk population wearing the best/rarest gear in the game is doing insane things against blahblah mob, we better do something". </P> <P>So what happened? 99% of the monk community felt a mitigation nerf while the 1% with the best gear in the game, who originally came out with the data, hardly felt anything at all because it was the gear that needed adjusting and not the class. </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Oidan]

<DIV>My assassin friend and I parse our damage all of the time. I try to beat him all of the time but rarely succeed. he is 2 levels below me as well. My average dps when I am in RE is 60-80 without any form of haste and not tanking. I dont watch my parses if I tank because too many things are going on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I ran into a 36 Wizard (I am lvl 35) and his program parsed the whole grp (forgot to ask which one it was). I was doing the same amount of damage as him and many times exceeding him and I was tanking. I dont agree with that. He should be doing more damage than I in a regular pick up grp enviroment. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was in a grp the other day was a 34 SK (MT), 35 Bruiser, 34 Defiler, 36 wizard, 34 Warlock and a 33 (mage type forgot class)</DIV> <DIV>Ae damage was huge but this grp was dangerous. I regularly grp with the healer and SK (guildies) we next to never die in most situations but aggro was a huge problem that led mult deaths. Yeah we killed pretty fast but I will never grp with 3 wizard types again, was just too damned dangerous. I dont see AE damage to be very class defining, it is way too imbalanced for risk vs reward. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think Bruiser is fine where they are at but the Wizard types need to be looked into. WHere is their Utility? Batteries? Stun a mob so they cant do any damage? I dont get it and I feel sorry for them.</DIV>

[Windy]

<DIV>I'm going to say any assassin that fails to out damage an equal level bruiser sucks in one form or another.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've only got 2 assassins in my guild, but they are both in the top 10 for damage dealers on my server, and they really do dish it.  I do some crazy damage myself when I go all out, but still isn't what these two can do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bards might not do as much raw DPS themselves, but their buffs increase the DPS of the group, making them just as effective as a damage dealer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing it factor in is most mage and scout arts actually upgrade by large amounts when taken to Adept III or higher.  Assassin adept books have been pretty rare so far, and there are alot of assassins in freeport on my server.  I'm sure many are settling for app3, and probably just as many have app1 or app2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The more I look at bruiser, the more I think they don't need any real adjusting.  They seem to be ok where they are.  Not the strongest tank, nor the strongest DPS, but they can tank well enough for most XP groups if they are played inteligently, and they do enough DPS to substitute if you can't find a mage or a scout to fill that slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They have a small assortment of useful skills, though many of them suck or are broken.  Thats the thing that really needs fixing with the bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've noticed since the shield nerf ( yes, it was a nerf, we lost alot more than we gained ) that I take alot more damage, since I lost alot of AC.  I'm not even sure if deflection is even working, might be broken, hard to say.  I don't know if they REALLY gave us the benefit of adding shields.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Redbed]

<DIV>I think bruisers are fine the way they are also.  There are just too many variables to give out positive results.  The Quality of Skill levels is the BIggest variable of them all.  Quality of Player is also an important factor.  Put me in a group and within 4-5 fights I can tell you who I am better then and who I am worse then.  But I couldnt tell you why I am.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im happy....well except for that pink monk hand me down dress the devs fobbed off on me.</DIV>

[Manuel]

<DIV>The #1 factor that makes Bruiser so much fun to play is the damage aspect. Period. Im pretty sure anyone that chose bruiser expected to beat the hell outta things, above all. Its in the name. Now you can come and tell me "hey, but warriors should tank" (mostly other DPS hating) but then, we could also have a game with just four classes, with subclasses beign just a mere cosmetical factor. A big BAH to that. No way jose. Our tanking is far from average, no matter what others say. We can do that, but are very dependant on buffs & mob level, and group taunting is just hell. I actually stopped shielding casters long ago... they take the damage better than i do, period (Well the inquisitor i usually group with does, no doubt at all) People call me to pound stuff, and I have a solid reputation for that now. No they dont call me for tanking. They know im uber-dps with nice side-effects, I know it too, I am a HAPPY man so far. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for the guys who call for the nerfing bat (yes all you lil scout and mages out there) Ill say this: I cant evac, no beefy group buffs, no magic damage ( youll have fun with melee inmunes ) no poisons, no stealth, no tracking, no lockpicking...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far if you wanna kick some butt and ye wanna be a fighter, you got one option: its called the BRUISER. They bruise things. They are unique, fun, and effective. They are not overpowered. I really cant comment on the Zerk thing since i dont play that class, but I dont wanna see any Zerk ghosts scaring people here and calling for Nerfday. I mean, we had enough with the AQ issue, that would be a deathblow to the uprising Bruiser community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, one last thing... NO ANIMAL FORMS FOR BRUISER [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] so lame and unfitting... Buy a pet they are cheap. </DIV>

[Atheis]

Nerfing bruisers is a BAD idea. We already have a difficult time finding groups as is. Despite the fact that a skilled bruiser who keeps up his gear/skills can tank, albeit not quite as well a plate tank, the healers have to use more power, we are perfectly managable tanking oranges without sponging. We compensate for that easily by are added DPS. We shouldn't tank as well, there has to be a downside to having our DPS, which we should be able to keep, bruises are the DPS flavor of the brawler class. Most other people just can't let go of the traditional notion they have that you have to have a plate tank, and they'd rather have a scout or mage for dps despite the fact we are on par with most scouts DPS. Obviously some people are starting to come around as there is a large wave on my server at least of bruiser alts on the rise. If soloing was viable compared to group xp past 35, I wouldn't care about getting groups, but group xp is at least twice as fast as soloing, even if you are soloing group mobs which btw I don't think many classes can even do, its still slow. The balance should be toward the plate tanks, they simply need a DPS boost to fall in line about 50-66pct of what ours is, seeing how that is about the ratio how much better they tank than us. As for scouts, yes as far as I can tell are just being lazy on the low parses. Good, active scouts do and should beat us, but not by an enormous margin. Scouts can auxillary tank too and have *huge* utility, I think they are fine. As for mages, good ones still parse nicely above us without drawing aggro or running oop. They are doing fine imo too.43 Bruiser Nektulos<p>Message Edited by Atheis on <span class=date_text>01-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:31 AM</span>

[Jow]

<DIV>I too would like for us to stay the same, but from my experiences SOE has always taken the path of least work. Rather than up the damage output of other classes or do some balancing work with nukers and such, they will probably just nerf. "hmm, we could spend time tweaking 4-5 classes or we can just nerf 1 hmmm".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at our AQ set as a perfect example. The textures were not right on the larger race types. Rather than fix the way the armor scales for larger races, which would take time (oh no), they instead opted for the Taco Bell method. Hey, lets throw some cheese on something we already have and we can call it something new!</DIV>

[Windy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Manueles wrote:<BR> <DIV> I actually stopped shielding casters long ago... they take the damage better than i do, period (Well the inquisitor i usually group with does, no doubt at all)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>This isn't because you have low AC.  A gaurdian who shields his allies takes just as much of a beating.  The problem with current cover abilities is you have NO form of avoidance OR mitigation whatsoever.  No dodge, parry, no armor class, no buffs nothing.  Interevene = Ward using your own HP.  Yes a mage will take the hits better, because they have some armor class.  The lack of armor class mitigation is what makes these cover abilities lame.  It also hurts the gaurdian, who's secondary role is to shield allies.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Bruiser = Primary Tank, Secondary DPS</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Guardian = Primary Tank, Secondary Shield Allies</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I think a big imbalance that we see is due to this.  Guardians are/were not supposed to be the "best tanks" at all.  Everybody was supposed to be equal, this was their "vision(tm)"  You can imagine what would happen if the gaurdian abilities did work well, and that would tell you why they nerfed it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>If a guardian could shield say... a bruiser, and still get his armor class, than the bruiser avoids like 60-75% of all the hits comming her way, and those that do get through the gaurdian sucks with his beefing hp and armor class.  You'd have two fighters working together, to form a near unstoppable tanking force.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>The problem with this is that monk + guardian or bruiser + guardian would be the real tanking pair.  That would kinda leave paladin, shadowknight and berzerker out in the cold.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Faw]

<DIV>I have a bad feeling that a nerf could be coming for the bruiser dps.  Though I do believe that the mage classes do need a dps increase.  Personally I would rather be a lousy tank then give up any dps, some of us want to tank, some to damage, I play for damage hence "bruiser".  I will say though that if we get our dps smacked with the bat that it will hurt the chances of finding pick up groups.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stahl - 40 Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV>

[Darqz]

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Guys,</P> <P>While it pains me to admit this you are right. The bruisers are fine. Like I said in previous posts I've played an SK and an Assassin. While I still feel there should be no comparision between the DPS of a scout class and a fighter class, thats my own personal view. Looking at this at the game wide perspective you need to have the functionality of the Bruisers. Yes you guys do take a good deal of damage when you get hit it is kind of proportionate to what a fighter class should be taking in the game. You guys also do Awesome damage which is proportionate to the Fighter Class of the group. </P> <P>While talking to some friends today over lunch they helped me realize this. When the game was designed everything was designed with a dual design and a counterpart.</P> <P>By this I mean</P> <P>Gaurdian would have Beserker</P> <P>Shadow Knight would have a Paladin</P> <P>Bruisers would have Monk</P> <P>This would then be broken up by Damage Done and Damage Taken</P> <P>For Damage Done the order in the game is :</P> <P>Bruisers/Monk</P> <P>Beserker/Shadow Knight (I have put the SK here because of the damage spells oppose to the Paladin's healing spells/wards) Gaurdians/Paladins</P> <P>For Damage Taken the order in the game is:</P> <P>Gaurdian/Zerker</P> <P>Bruiser/monk</P> <P>Shadow Knight / Paladin</P> <P></P> <P>I know there is debate that the SK doesn't out damage a Gaurdian and that Paladins can do major damage but this is by a perspective look only, so hear me out.</P> <P>Sony's Original Plan was to have the following:</P> <P>Damage Done:</P> <P>Zerker/Bruiser</P> <P>Monk/SK</P> <P>Gaurdian/paladin.</P> <P>Damage Taken:</P> <P>Gaurdian</P> <P>Paladin/Sk</P> <P>Bruiser/Monk/Zerker</P> <P>Yes I know it looks skewed and that I'm talking out of my rear end but by the original Sony description Zerkers were suppose to do Massive amounts of damage at the cost of damage taken. The highest Plate wearing classes were Gaurdians and the Crusader classes (Due to the covented Vangaurd armor). Bruisers/Monks were designed to do HIGHEST Damage when the Zerker was not zerking. You guys were designed to take damage like any fighter but not designed to take the best damage in the group such as the gaurdian and the crusader classes. The fact that you guys take the damage you do was suppose to be because you traded the Heavy armor for the leathers that you wear (and the zerkers were suppose this way but more on this later.) This allowed you to raise in such skills as dodge and parry because you were designed not to get hit but to dodge. When you got hit it was suppose to really hurt. Zerkers were to be built off a similar status.  The whole problem is that they weren't built around the original Sony Zerker impression.  Zerkers were given defensive capabilities similar to that of a Gaurdian with the damage similar to that of a bruiser.  Instead of removing the Zerker's ability to wear heavy/vangaurd armor they removed thier defining Damage capability.  Now the zerkers are a mirror class of the gaurdian class who instead of a myriad amount of taunts get damage attacks to gain agro, with abilities similar to yours.  By this I mean they get to do damage at the cost of thier defense still, but thier damage has been lowered to that of below you.  So in all fairness the game is as it should be not as it is intended.  So if anyone who is still reading this post cares.  Bruisers are fine the way they are.  There really is no need for the nerfs (outside of my own personal views but I've kept that to myself for this post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  This is from somebody who can admit when they made .... incorrect statements about a class before getting to see the whole picture.  GL to you guys and hope your defensive skills are good enough to dodge or parry the bat.</P> <P> </P></FONT></DIV>

[Odissi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fawst wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have a bad feeling that a nerf could be coming for the bruiser dps.  Though I do believe that the mage classes do need a dps increase.  Personally I would rather be a lousy tank then give up any dps, some of us want to tank, some to damage, I play for damage hence "bruiser".  I will say though that if we get our dps smacked with the bat that it will hurt the chances of finding pick up groups.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stahl - 40 Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Hey guess what!?</P> <P>Now you know what happened to us berserkers!</P>

[ethan]

Bruiser dps nerf? lol tell me you joking.

[fur]

<DIV>I can honestly say i dont fear the nerf bat at all, first of all bruisers  cant tank the high end raid mobs as the only thing that works against them is heavy armor mitigation so anyone wearing light armor is immediately out of the question for tanking, that leaves us bruisers with 1 job at the high end game and that is dps, we do not have the scouts utility nor do we have the monks defensive boostage / buffs that can be used to strengthen a group or the tank or a targettable mend  so there is nothing else we can do on raids other then go all out dps or handle off tanking jobs. Thats it. Our class might be adjustable dps wise but i seriously doubt it, and if so our dps might get lowerd ranges 20>45  and our tanking skills somewhat improved in those level ranges but other then that i cant see how they can lower our damage and still make us a viable choice, remember that jeer or boast later on (both use fear component) will with a 100% certainty lock encounters in every dungeun there is, making the skill unusable indoors, 2nd we cannot tank large scale encounters (5+) mobs as well as heavy armor users ( imo we cant tank them at all) cause of the fact that you do not evade parry etc outside the 180 degree radius, adding insult to injury as we have to waste immense amounts of power to keep aggro on us and take [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]loads more damage while doing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now some of you might argue with me regarding our tanking ability but as ive said before i play with a bunch of rl friends and we use a guardian as mt simply because hes the best overall choice, sure with trouby buffs up i can tank that dual arrow orange mob adding us if we lack a mezzer but the guardian can tank any encounter and most important of all, the damage he sustains in a fight is consistent, meaning he dont get hit for 3000 damage in 2 secs or 0 damage for 10 secs he gets hit for the same amount of damage about all the time which frankly makes him the superior choice, however im not saying we cant be used as an emergency tank when the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hits the fence, im saying we do it worse then the other tanks and imo rightly so as we do the most warrior arch damage as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And im not level 50 im a measly 37 but up to now the same has held true and that is that although we can tank and tank very well outdoors against single arrow 2 mob encounters or single dual arrow encounters, we are the worst dungeun tank in the game, plain and simple. this is not true of monks though who tank farily well in dungeuns compared to us, however bruisers are at the bottom when it comes to tanking and on the other side , were at the top when it comes to dps. So imo its all apples and oranges</DIV><p>Message Edited by furok on <span class=date_text>01-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:29 AM</span>

[Drexel]

<DIV>Manuealas,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>     You suck at tanking becuase your AGI sucks for you lvl....its like 82 or something....for a lvl 37 bruiser....thats horribly low.  You chose Ogre as your race which starts [Removed for Content] low AGI, and probably did not use your traits and traditions to buff it up.   You look and talk like what you rolled...a STR heavy Bruiser who does sick damage.   Nohting wrong with that.  i am sure you crush things with the DPS you put out.  But DONT say we can't tank becuase you can't.   Your toon is statted to do damage, not avoid it.  Broad statements like yours are what confuse people so much.  A high AGI buiser who knows how to use his skills can tank nearly any mob in the game.  Guards and Zerkers are better in some instances, but 90% of the time, a Bruiser/Monk is as good as, or better than a plate tank.  When it comes to tough,single mobs...nothing beats a Bruiser tanking.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slie</DIV><p>Message Edited by Drexell2 on <span class=date_text>01-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:21 AM</span>

[IkkyScar]

<DIV>Ok everyone who knows the reality of how good Bruisers are need to be quiet.  Let us all just be silent so the nerf bat doesn't hit us. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>God do we suck at tanking, and our dps sucks too.  Worst class in the game.  I'm going to re-roll a Guardian.   /whistles innocently :smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guber--50 Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV>