Kicked from group

[justfr]

Today I was kicked out of a group because im a bruiser.We had Bruiser(me), wiz , Cler , chanter and scout. The paly had just left and we were waiting for a rep, I told em i can tank till we get a rep. The chanter refused to let me pull anything because he thought i was fragile. When i did pull something , which we won .. i was then kicked outta the grp because they said i couldnt tank, and was endangering the group by thinking i can. What a small minded little peebrain. Considering i had just been MT inside RE(with a different grp) and to come out to EL and fight faires i cant tank ... GAWD im frustrated.

[ganjookie]

Look for a group with a shammy type, they are best for us. G'luck

[Jezekie]

There's unfortunately a large percentage of the healers playerbase which do not acknowledge monks nor brusiers as tanks. They see us a DPS class and not one able to tank. I've often heard the "we need a real tank", "a plate tank".

[Tricky Vin]

and you'd want to group with that guy, why? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Miyu-Lega]

From my experiance so far it isn't as much of a 'we can't tank' but a 'they don't know how to heal us'. When I take the time to educate the healers I'm with then they never want another plate tank again.

[Snip]

<DIV>There is a common misperception amongst healers that we can't tank. However, every group I've been tanking in so far I have proven to my group that I can tank. Tbh does it really matter how much damage we take? I can take a shedload more damage than any non fighter class, and I can keep aggro as well as any fighter class - that, imo, makes me an ideal tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Coupled with the fact that I know how to play the class; that I know how to pull and I know how to feign, I would say that my bruiser is way up there with the best of 'em. I do struggle with harder mobs - yellow^^ give me a bit of grief.. but anything below that is no problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's entirely down to the healer. If the healer is gonna be a pain in the [Removed for Content] and claim you can't tank, tell them to [Removed for Content] off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We CAN tank. But, like the other fighter classes, we need good armour. I found with my 24 SK that with sub 1k AC unbuffed I was dead meat. Now that he's done AQ1-6 and has good jewelry (and 1385 AC unbuffed), he takes a LOT of damage. The same applies to bruisers. I was grouped with a level 23 bruiser who had 496 AC to my 740 (both unbuffed). He tanked for a couple of mobs and literally put the healers out of power every time. I really wish people like that would get their armour upgraded ASAP - otherwise the misperception is gonna stay around for a long time to come yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This post sounds like I'm bigging myself up - no, I'm not. I'm just trying to prove that we CAN tank. I would love any healer who says otherwise to come to FG with me and group for a couple of hours.</DIV>

[Drexel]

<DIV>I find that we can tank just fine BUT, some of the other classes probably do keep agro better than me?  This is based on expeince.  I have a lvl 27 Buiser, and I was tanking single double up arrow skellies in Nek just fine.  I would run into the citadel, taunt a skelly, smack it once or twice and run back out....once outside I would taunt it again, which was the signal for the group to start smacking it as well.  My buddy, who showed up later has a like level Guardian.  Now even though I would taunt it, hit it a couple of times, and taunt it again, he could hit any one of his taunt skills and pull that mob off of me first try.  Before you say it, my skills are all app3 or better.  This doesn't mean I can't tank, but it does mean I have a more difficult time keeping agro..which is key to being a good tank.  Main tanking CAN be done...we just are not as good at it.  Guardians are Taunt masters, as well as damage mitigation masters, that makes them by default the best.  We lay the smackdown in damage, and taunt well when a plate class isn't available but its definately different.  Players without alot of skill have a hard time with this, but many others have no problem with adjusting their play to help the Bruiser do a better job.  WE CAN TANK....its just different.  Casters shoudl lay off spamming the big nukes as not to draw agro...its a fair trade off though because I am doing twice the damage as a plate tank...so it may take a bit longer to take mobs out, but its doable.   Just takes some adjustments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sliestack</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MotleyFo]

<blockquote><hr>justfran wrote:Today I was kicked out of a group because im a bruiser.We had Bruiser(me), wiz , Cler , chanter and scout. The paly had just left and we were waiting for a rep, I told em i can tank till we get a rep. The chanter refused to let me pull anything because he thought i was fragile. When i did pull something , which we won .. i was then kicked outta the grp because they said i couldnt tank, and was endangering the group by thinking i can. What a small minded little peebrain. Considering i had just been MT inside RE(with a different grp) and to come out to EL and fight faires i cant tank ... GAWD im frustrated.<hr></blockquote>You might have been kicked because you started a fight when you knew the group didn't want you to.

[Drua]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MotleyFool wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> justfran wrote:<BR>Today I was kicked out of a group because im a bruiser.<BR><BR>We had Bruiser(me), wiz , Cler , chanter and scout. The paly had just left and we were waiting for a rep, I told em i can tank till we get a rep. The chanter refused to let me pull anything because he thought i was fragile. When i did pull something , which we won .. i was then kicked outta the grp because <STRONG>they said i couldnt tank</STRONG>, and was endangering the group by thinking i can. <BR><BR>What a small minded little peebrain. Considering i had just been MT inside RE(with a different grp) and to come out to EL and fight faires i cant tank ... GAWD im frustrated.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR>You might have been kicked because you started a fight when you knew the group didn't want you to.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Nope I'd say from reading that post that it was due to them saying he couldn't tank, don't see a "they kicked because they said I pulled wrong mob" in the original post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Alt is only a brawler but I don't have any issues MT either, also as far as my main goes he doesn't have any issues with Bruiser as MT's.</DIV>

[wayfaerer]

I find that brawler types do not make satisfactory tanks unless there is a druid or shaman type to heal. Cleric heals don't work very well on brawlers.

[Brist]

<DIV><EM>The chanter refused to let me pull anything because he thought i was fragile. When i did pull something </EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Erm sounds to me like you were asked not to pull and went ahead and pulled anyway</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd have kicked you too, and it has nothing with you being a Bruiser. If you want to prove that Bruisers make good MT the way to do it is to be a good tank not a wild one. You could have made your case and if they absolutely refused to even give you a chance then just add them to ignore and forget about them. But you can't convince ppl that you're good by waking stuff up when ppl maybe aren't ready and you've been asked not to</DIV>

[justfr]

<blockquote><hr>Bristaa wrote:<DIV><EM>The chanter refused to let me pull anything because he thought i was fragile. When i did pull something </EM></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Erm sounds to me like you were asked not to pull and went ahead and pulled anyway</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'd have kicked you too, and it has nothing with you being a Bruiser. If you want to prove that Bruisers make good MT the way to do it is to be a good tank not a wild one. You could have made your case and if they absolutely refused to even give you a chance then just add them to ignore and forget about them. But you can't convince ppl that you're good by waking stuff up when ppl maybe aren't ready and you've been asked not to</DIV><hr></blockquote>The group wanted to kill something, Faires were close , so i asked if everyone was rdy. i had 3 yes replies.. so i pulled, as i pulled chanter said no dont , because im not a real tank. Since chanter was leader , after the fight i got booted. I would never pull if ppl were not rdy or afk. This was a case of a simple minded chanter who believed bruisers can't be MT's.

[Di0Xi]

bruisers make sufficient tanks I think. I was with one who was level 27, with me at 28 defiler and a cleric-type, a brigand, some others.. (full group) and he was tanking low red mobs quite well.At the end we got wiped by a nasty named who feared our second healer off the map.. but it was so close in the end the named was on like 1-2% of his health and all his adds were dead.Now we came back later with another group and a guardian main tank and we didn't even get the named down to half health before we wiped :/. Now sure there was less damage in the second group but we didn't have our second healer feared off the map this time and yet we did so much worse. I know its wrong to put it all down to tank choice because a lot was different, but it just goes to show that bruisers can cut it with the best of them I feel.I wouldn't say clerics are bad for healing bruisers because reactives last a fairly long time. So with me warding them, and reactives ticking away when the ward fail, we can keep our power at similar levels and keep our bruiser tank well healed. Now sure with a druid in group I can just chain my wards when hes hurt a bit and let the HoT's heal up the damage, but with the amount of ward spamming I do I might end up low on power.So in a sense I would say clerics are better than druids for co-healing a bruiser.

[Brist]

<DIV>OK but I'd still question your PR strategy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rdy? -> No wait want to get another tank -> Pull</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was a bit of a F You response on your part</DIV>

[Oidan]

<DIV>I am still surprised by this. I come across this nonsense all of the time with non guildy grp's. I never really try to be the MT because I want to focus on damage and secondary tank to pull off mobs etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other day I got into a grp with a plate class who was MT, I think we were roughly the same level. Well he had to leave and we could not find a replacement. So there we were, just us 5. The Inquis asked if bruisers could tank and I just said, I am not sure lets find out. 2 of the people laughed at that but the healer did not want me to pull. I asked of they were rdy to move and I took control of the grp. All said that they were ready, I pulled and tanked for 4 hours and we had no deaths in Varsoons. We ran around and killed just about everything that moved with our 5 person grp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right before we broke up, I said "Who was the one that asked if we could tank and did not want to take the chance because they heard we were horrible tanks?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Inquis said "I have no idea, what an idiot!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone laughed and we disbanded.</DIV>

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>Perhaps he didnt want to become KOS with Faeries! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[littleman17]

<DIV>That pisses me off, I was a tank in fg (lvl 20) with a Defilier, Fury, Asassassin, Wizard, and Necro. I was kicking [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], even on ^^ yellow, only thing that gave me trouble was ^^ orange.</DIV>

[SinR]

i got a 22 guardian, and a 14 brawler (soon to be monk, or bruiser, not sure yet... 3 levels before I <b>need</b> to make up my mind...) and... at about the same level, i think my brawler is a better tank than my warrior was... plus i have DPS, so I can kick double up blue (single enemy) [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. a pair of nomad walking sticks (adds in +8 to agility <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) plus now im looking for armor pieces that adds to my agility.all in all, ALL fighters can tank. we just happen to be the most... underrated

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SinR wrote:<BR>all in all, ALL fighters can tank. we just happen to be the most... underrated<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Very true. Glad to see so many of you are proving those perceptions to be wrong. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind that brawlers need to pay extra attention to gear. Plate classes have more leeway thanks to the extra mitigation heavier armor provides, but it's up to bruisers and monks to make sure they're using appropriate equipment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also remember that tanks should use shields. The extra chance to block attacks that a shield provides is significant and should not be ignored. I know it goes against the brawlers' instincts to intentionally lower their damage output, but tanking isn't about doing damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once the update currently on Test moves to the live servers, brawlers/bruisers/monks will have increased deflection equal to using a shield, which will prove very handy indeed.</DIV>

[Celestian_]

<DIV>I've played with all manner of "tanks" and I'm very skeptical at this. Sure they can "tank" but so can a templar if he has to, but not well... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've had zerkers, SKs, paladins and guardians ... even monks and brawlers. Side by side guardians beat them all hands down for ability to tank and hold aggro consistantly. Paladin's and SKs seem to be able to do a "ok" job and a good player can do pretty well. An average player as a guardian can do better than a paladin played by a good player.  I think that says a lot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone could prove otherwise by some statistics I'll be glad to change my mind. </DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>SinR wrote:<BR>all in all, ALL fighters can tank. we just happen to be the most... underrated<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Very true. Glad to see so many of you are proving those perceptions to be wrong. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Keep in mind that brawlers need to pay extra attention to gear. Plate classes have more leeway thanks to the extra mitigation heavier armor provides, but it's up to bruisers and monks to make sure they're using appropriate equipment.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Also remember that tanks should use shields. The extra chance to block attacks that a shield provides is significant and should not be ignored. I know it goes against the brawlers' instincts to intentionally lower their damage output, but tanking isn't about doing damage.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Once the update currently on Test moves to the live servers, brawlers/bruisers/monks will have increased deflection equal to using a shield, which will prove very handy indeed.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I still maintain that the biggest and most significant part of any fighters arsenal is the brain of the player.. if you dont know your stuff to the best of your ability, you wont be able to perform your role in combat to the best of your ability... I joke that I obsess about playing a serker with my friends but it is true... I play a serk, I explore options, I try tactics.. I see what works and what doesn't.. I see what DOESN"T work with each type of creature we fight.. I remember those things.. I play an alt of each of the other three classes so that I can see how -they- contribute to the whole system. Once you understand your role in combat and how it relates to others, it makes it easier to realize that the name of the subclass has no meaning other than indicating the style... play your stuff how it should be played, let them do their job and everything will come out fine in the end...

[Tenzan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Celestian_GC wrote:<BR> <DIV>I've played with all manner of "tanks" and I'm very skeptical at this. Sure they can "tank" but so can a templar if he has to, but not well... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've had zerkers, SKs, paladins and guardians ... even monks and brawlers. Side by side guardians beat them all hands down for ability to tank and hold aggro consistantly. Paladin's and SKs seem to be able to do a "ok" job and a good player can do pretty well. An average player as a guardian can do better than a paladin played by a good player.  I think that says a lot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone could prove otherwise by some statistics I'll be glad to change my mind. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Er... I'd like to see you prove that statement with some statistics yourself Cele :smileywink:</P> <P>What class are you? What class was doing the healing? Were the Tanks you've played with equally equipped? Were they played by people with the same skill? Were you taking on the same mobs each time?</P> <P>Be very careful about asking for proof from others when all you've put forward is conjecture and opinion and provided no concrete figures yourself.</P> <P>From my personal experience (and yes, this is an opinion not 'proof') my Monk tanks just fine up to yellow^^ and with some effort on oranges. With a Shaman in the group I'm the preferred tank over our guardian and when you get a Shaman and a Druid healing I'm nearly invincible :smileytongue:</P> <P>With a Cleric healing things can get tough due to the way our HP spikes at times but I have never yet died as MT on a deliberate pull with a cleric as the sole healer. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Tenzan on <span class=date_text>12-31-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:27 AM</span>

[BigDa]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snipeh wrote:<BR> <DIV>...I would say that my bruiser is way up there with the best of 'em. I do struggle with harder mobs - yellow^^ give me a bit of grief.. but anything below that is no problem.</DIV> <DIV>... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm seeing similar issues to this as a mystic.  We work awesome against mobs near our level - better than other healers.  The problem is people don't want to kill 10 whites in a row when they can kill 3 reds and it seems that as levels go up plate tanks (and templars in my case) are more effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's all very well balancing things with the even-level, average-encounter theory, but what happens when the player base decides they prefer higher risk-reward encounters and certain classes scale up better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*shrug*</DIV>

[BraveBulgo]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<DIV>Also remember that tanks should use shields. </div><hr></blockquote>Then why in the name o' all things holy do Guardians get a two handed weapon for completing our Guardian quest? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by BraveBulgo on <span class=date_text>12-31-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:09 AM</span>

[Ahtener]

<DIV>I don't know if that's bug or not, BUT: lvl23 zerker with Bloodlust spell on can hold agro better than any other fighter subclass. Using dual-wield axes and other offencive spells, i can still tank without any problems.</DIV>

[DavDarke]

I have a dirge and have just started a brawler -> bruiser. I regularly group with a bruiser with my higher level dirge.With good gear they tank pretty well with a defiler in the group.However the key is that they are versitile, they can fit into any group. That is why it looks a very fun class to play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[digitalfre]

<DIV>Like someone mentioned before, it's the brains of the person playing that matters most.  You need to know the strengths and limitations of your class.  A couple of days ago I (lvl 22 monk) joined a pickup group doing AQ3.  Myself, 2 casters and 2 healers.  We were kicking butt on ^^ yellows without any problems.  However, when a 23 pally joined up, I deferred to him as MT.  We continued kicking butt, but I didn't have to worry about keeping aggro any more, and could concentrate on straight damage dealing.  You need to know how to play the toon.</DIV>

[Kosh]

<DIV>So I guess what you guys are saying is since bruisers can do more damage than a Guardian, there is no point in making a Guardian because bruisers can tank just as well and obviously can also do more damage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Laiina]

<DIV>As a healer, I have to say that many of the healers don't have a clue <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterday, I was lowest (2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> in a 28-33 Runnyeye group. Only healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During all this time, I almost never got below 1/2 power (except when I went nuke crazy), and nobody died (well, once, when someone lagged and aggrod the entire room <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) in about 4 hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had to leave, and was replaced by a 30 Templar. About 30 min later I got tells from GL to come back because the group had wiped about 4 times, numerous other deaths, and the cleric sucked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen clerics use the group heal spell to heal the MT, so some are obviously not aware of how to use their spells. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying I am the most uber, or that many clerics suck - but there are some pretty .. clueless... ones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, I almost never - maybe 1 encounter in 20 - do I use a direct heal on the MT. There are better ways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suspect you got one of those.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Laiina on <span class=date_text>12-31-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 AM</span>

[aeio]

The issue is compounded by the fact that some monks and bruisers don't think they can tank. Just reading the forums indicate that. It is not helping anyone out when people playing those classes ignorantly go around saying they can't tank.Ultimately it takes education for people to learn, and if they are simply unwilling not to remain in the dark, the best bet is to move along.They are only going to hurt themselves if they exclude a substantial portion of the fighter tree from tanking for them.

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>Koshta wrote:<DIV>So I guess what you guys are saying is since bruisers can do more damage than a Guardian, there is no point in making a Guardian because bruisers can tank just as well and obviously can also do more damage?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Not necessarily. The one thing many people miss, is that as a Brawler you can either tank, or do quite good damage. Both at the same time doesnt work. We have to use offensive/defensive stances and buffs to do either job, pretty much crippling the other. Also, i dont claim Brawlers generally can tank as well as a Guardian, i however do claim that Brawler tanking is sufficient for most xping situations, under certain conditions even superiour ( that being a highly skilled team, shaman type healer and single yellow^^ or lower mobs ). The one huge advantage of the Brawler class is the versatility, they can fill the tank <b>or</b> the dps role to a satisfying degree. Not both at the same time.<p>Message Edited by Dovifat on <span class=date_text>12-31-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:30 AM</span>

[Drexel]

<DIV>Tanking all depends on situation.  Single mobs...no-one is better than an avoidance tank...like a bruiser.  Multiple mobs get much more difficult to manage.  We can still tank, but healer type in the group, and his/her skill level REALLY make the differance.  In those situation, I prefer to let the plate classes handle the agro.  They mitigate the multiple mob/hits type damage way better than me, and make the healers job easier.  An an example...We just did the EL quest for a buddy of mine last night.   We used a guardian to tank all of the group mobs that spawned...but the final mob, the Demon, was mezzed until all of his little buddies were dead.  Once they were, we switched MT to me, and I kept the demon on me...avoiding most of his hits...it worked really well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV>

[Blast2hell]

<DIV>I play a 28th Templar.  I'm going to have to say, my experience follow what moorgard said.  Bruisers and Monks need to pay closer attention to there gear.   I've had some that do really well, and I've even told a paladin or two to stand down and let the Bruiser tank, just because they handled the damage better.   Then on the other hand I've grouped with ones that took hit's about as good as a mage hehe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think on a whole, a lot of people in game don't pay attention to there gear.  If we all took the time out to look at stats on people in our class and compare ours to theres.  I think more people would realize how shabby or how good there gear is if they just took a moment to inspect other players and see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't know how many people in there 20's still have on isle of Refuge gear, or don't wear a helm because they think the graphic looks like crap and they haven't figured out the /showhood command.    It's just a fact, with poor gear, you will suffer.  But that's a bit off topic.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>None the less, I hope once monks/bruiser get shield thing with patch, they people start to use them more.  Fact of the matter is, most people want guardians to be main tanks, personally I prefer any fighter class two levels over me.   I've grouped with plate wearers that have on mismatch gear and have less AC then me as a templar.    </DIV>

[Sebastien]

From a healer's perspective, brawler-tanking seems to work ok, with one caveat. It is VERY nerve-wracking for a non-shaman healer. Why?It seems to go like this. You guys evade and block a lot. The way most healers operate has a lot to do with timing and pace. We guage our tanks, and our opponents, and quickly get a feel for how fast the mob can make your hitpoint bar move down. Any good healer kind of does this by instinct. Once we have the timing down, we can divide our time more effectively between nukes, debuffs, and heals, and make sure that we never over or under heal.Here's what goes through my head when a brawler is tanking:"OK, let's see how this guy can do. Ah, not bad. Hrmm.. lot's of dodging there. Very good. OK, hitpoint bar not going down very fast at all. I think I have time for a debuff, and then maybe I will- ZOMG!!! He's almost DEAD! SPAM HEAL SPAM HEAL SPAM HEAL!!! phew he lived."Basically, it is very difficult to pace with you guys. You dodge and dodge and block and dodge, and that's great. But once you finally *do* get hit, you generally get hit VERY hard, due to lack of mitigation. I can see how the Shaman wards compliment this style of tanking well. For Druids it is very bad, since our regens can't really be put to much use in this situation.So, I am thinking that a brawler class is going to have a very difficult time tanking anything that is very hard, as in red, or Raid (groupx2, etc). Simply put, you need mitigation. And your blocks/evades are going to get hurt when you are taking on the bigger bad guys.Even so, I don't hold anything against the class. I know that they are versatile, can tank when needed, and otherwise do good damage. That makes an ideal secondary tank, imo. What I might suggest to SOE, though, is to consider giving Brawlers/Monks/Bruisers more hitpoints. This wouldn't actually make them significantly tougher, in the longhaul, as their defensive abilities are still the same. But it would create an additional buffer that allows them to tank the harder mobs for their parties.

[Drexel]

<DIV>I should point out that my statement about is for a Bruiser in the 25-30 range...where we find it the most difficult to tank.  At later levels we get more skills that make us much more effective at tanking multiples.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV>

[Drexel]

<DIV>"OK, let's see how this guy can do. Ah, not bad. Hrmm.. lot's of dodging there. Very good. OK, hitpoint bar not going down very fast at all. I think I have time for a debuff, and then maybe I will- ZOMG!!! He's almost DEAD! SPAM HEAL SPAM HEAL SPAM HEAL!!! phew he lived."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seb thats about the funniest, most accurate description of the problems Bruisers have as main Tanks as I have ever seen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV>

[TygerBlueEy]

<DIV>As a group leader I would have kicked you too, not becuase of your class but becuase you did something you were told not to do. I think you not following the groups rules say a lot more than anything else. You have to have the right mindset to be a 'good' tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Celestian_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tenzan wrote:<BR> <P>Er... I'd like to see you prove that statement with some statistics yourself Cele :smileywink:</P> <P>What class are you? What class was doing the healing? Were the Tanks you've played with equally equipped? Were they played by people with the same skill? Were you taking on the same mobs each time?</P> <P>Be very careful about asking for proof from others when all you've put forward is conjecture and opinion and provided no concrete figures yourself.</P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm a 36 templar, so I can say I have some experience in healing.</P> <P>I have no problems with someone proving me wrong. You guys claim that they can tank better than guardians, my experience shows otherwise and until someone can show statistical proof otherwise I will just nod and smile.</P> <P>I've grouped with all of the fighter types and guardians consistantly hold aggro and tank much better than all the rest. I don't sit down and nit pick their equipment or play style, thats just how it is. I've had decent paladin and zerkers tanking but even then guardians typically took less damage and allowed the group to move at a better rate gaining more exp over time.</P> <P>The burden of proof is not put on us. It's the common belief right now and until someone can prove to us otherwise (besides a single "good" player) I doubt anyones conception about this will change. And I am not saying I speak for the majority of people, just the ones I know.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[smackdaddy_D]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tenzan wrote: <P>From my personal experience (and yes, this is an opinion not 'proof') my Monk tanks just fine up to yellow^^ and with some effort on oranges. With a Shaman in the group I'm the preferred tank over our guardian and when you get a Shaman and a Druid healing I'm nearly invincible :smileytongue:</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Bummer. In a decent group of all the same level characters, with a gaurdian tanking, red^^ mobs are of no concern.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You haven't lived until you've killed legions of firerock goliaths with a group of level 21 and 22s, or whacked on the level 40s in Runnyeye with a group of 33s. Uphunting is only possible with a real tank. The paper tanks can stand behind the mob doing damage, like me and all the other dps classes. </DIV>

[Drexel]

<DIV>I'll take my "PaperTank" over a TauntBot anyday.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV>

[smackdaddy_D]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drexell2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'll take my "PaperTank" over a TauntBot anyday.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Obviously, or else you'd have to admit you've been wasting your time.</P> <P>The question is, will groups take your "PaperTank" over a "TauntBot"?</P> <P>Not likely. :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Drexel]

<DIV>In most cases yes.  At higher levels, we do an excellent job as MT.  Especially when combined with a shaman/Druid healing team (no so great with Clerics).  When you want to go after multiple group red cons, a Guardian is the way to go.  They are damage sponges and certainly have their place, but its the same place...every time...how boring.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV>

[smackdaddy_D]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drexell2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>In most cases yes.  At higher levels, we do an excellent job as MT.  Especially when combined with a shaman/Druid healing team (no so great with Clerics).  When you want to go after multiple group red cons, a Guardian is the way to go.  They are damage sponges and certainly have their place, but its the same place...every time...how boring.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well...tell me one that class that doesn't do the same thing every battle. There isn't one. The only time you do something different is if things fall apart. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you're essentially saying is that it's more fun to be a paper tank because the excitement of losing aggro and then trying to get it back breaks up the boredom.</DIV>

[Drexel]

<DIV>I get the feeling you are just trying to start a flame war with the mildly leading statements, which I won't get into with you.  I will answer your question though.  In a regular...nonpowergamer group a Bruiser/Monk is versatile enough that we can:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A. Main Tank   (withthe exception of multiple ^^ Reds)</DIV> <DIV>B. Secondary Tank / DPS (There is arguement that we outdamage even scout classes over time though I have not seen it parsed yet to state this as fact.  A guardian as a secondary tank is a waste of group space..damage output is pitifully low, Zerkers are good, but still pale compared to Bruisers/Monks when we spam our skills)</DIV> <DIV>C. Act as a puller (using FD I can save the group useless exp loss due to a bad pull)</DIV> <DIV>D. ZOMG!!!  I took a big hit as MT, Secondary, or pulling...healer is straining to keep up with the damage...no biggy...I can heal myself about 30-50% once every minute or so.  Prettyhandy and fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Way more fun than...Hunkerdown...Taunt...Shout...Taunt...Shout. ..(insert upgraded taunt skills here, I don't know them).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I were forming a group, and a Guardian was available to MT...no question he gets the job for me in most cases.  They are great at the role for a reason...cuz thats what they do.  All I am saying is I would never play one.  Its seems to be the same role over and over.  With Bruisers and Monks, we find groups because we are so versatile.  I am agreeing with you that Plate classes have their roles...I personally would just never play one in this game...well maybe a Zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV>

[Jooneau]

The fact they had a Cleric and Enchanter in group should have tipped you off that the group still thinks they're playing EQ1, not EQ2. Fools.

[Morth]

<DIV>Interesting that you say this Ahtener, because I am to the point of purposely avoiding Berzerkers in my groups unless they are going to be the MT.  It is so frusterating as a cleric to have to constantly dump heals on a Berzerker that is four levels lower than my spouses Paladin.  Even with backing off on their special attacks, they still pull aggro.  Maybe Paladin's aren't as good at holding aggro, but I have heard people in my guild saying that Berzerkers are now the best raid tank due to aggro management.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This reminds me of the Kunark days of Rangers.  I think an aggro reduction skill is in order for Berzerkers?</DIV>

[Celestian_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drexell2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>In most cases yes.  At higher levels, we do an excellent job as MT.  Especially when combined with a shaman/Druid healing team (no so great with Clerics).  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm curious why this statement. Why would a cleric (templar/inq) have any more trouble healing a bruiser/monk than the others except for the fact in my experience they take a load more damage than guardians/plate types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rontgen]

Grouped with a Zerker a couple levels lower than me not too long ago. I was MT and with his Bloodlust ability (or something similar to that) I had a terrible time holding aggro. It was to the point where I had to go nuts with all taunts, Intimidate, and group buffs just to hold on. Once the Zerker turned Bloodlust off, I had no problems, although he did less damage as a result. Perhaps there was a better sequence of taunts/abilities to hold aggro with a Zerker in group. Since that was the first and still only time I've group with one, I can only speculate.Sorry to push this thread even more off track.<p>Message Edited by Rontgen on <span class=date_text>12-31-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Potentater]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wayfaerer wrote:<BR>I find that brawler types do not make satisfactory tanks unless there is a druid or shaman type to heal. Cleric heals don't work very well on brawlers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV>I agree.  I play a shaman and <EM>GENERALLY</EM> use less power healing/warding a brawler type tank then a straight up warrior.  However, I also find that a brawler type <EM>GENERALLY </EM>doesn't hold aggro as well in the cases that more healing/warding is necessary.

[Kwis]

<DIV>Moorgard wrote "tanks should wear shields"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... do you know how hard it is to find good one handed weapons? (very hard)</DIV>

[LadySyl]

"I'm curious why this statement. Why would a cleric (templar/inq) have any more trouble healing a bruiser/monk than the others except for the fact in my experience they take a load more damage than guardians/plate types."Because of the way reactive heals and bruiser avoidance works. Lets say, just for the sake of argument, that bruisers get hit half as often but twice as hard. Lets say, again just for the sake of example, that a mob hits for 100 on the guardian and your reactive is healing for 75. The guardian gets hit 10 times for 1000-750=250 total damage taken over reactive heals. The bruiser gets hit 5 times for 1000-375=625. Now, both the bruiser and the guardian took ~exactly~ the same amount of damage before any form of heals are factored in. However, because of the way reactive heals work, they work much better on low avoidance high mitigation tanks then high avoidance low mitigation. Shamans are exactly the opposite. Druids are middle ground.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR>I can see how the Shaman wards compliment this style of tanking well. For Druids it is very bad, since our regens can't really be put to much use in this situation.<BR><BR>So, I am thinking that a brawler class is going to have a very difficult time tanking anything that is very hard, as in red, or Raid (groupx2, etc). <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I tanked from 40 to 48 with  a static group in CT and Permafrost with a single druid healer. I'm a monk.<BR>

[Sorvani]

<DIV>level 22 cleric here.. i've grouped with everything in the game, and all types of tanks can tank jsut fine. i have to heal them differently, but they can all tank jsut fine with appropriate gear and more brain cells in their head than the chanter in the original posters group.</DIV>

[Windy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> smackdaddy_D wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tenzan wrote: <P>From my personal experience (and yes, this is an opinion not 'proof') my Monk tanks just fine up to yellow^^ and with some effort on oranges. With a Shaman in the group I'm the preferred tank over our guardian and when you get a Shaman and a Druid healing I'm nearly invincible :smileytongue:</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Bummer. In a decent group of all the same level characters, with a gaurdian tanking, red^^ mobs are of no concern.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You haven't lived until you've killed legions of firerock goliaths with a group of level 21 and 22s, or whacked on the level 40s in Runnyeye with a group of 33s. Uphunting is only possible with a real tank. The paper tanks can stand behind the mob doing damage, like me and all the other dps classes. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Just a headsup, bruisers are a high skill class.  I had a guardian who wanted to show me how well I could tank, a money where your mouth is sorta thing.  We did it in runnyeye.  Tanking different things, all the way up.  Final test to convice him was fighting a pair of red L40 mino's.  I tanked them just fine, without any problems.  The entire group was L31, except for the guardian ( who didn't tank during the fight, just fought ) and me... L30 bruiser at the time.</P> <P>The secret?  Bruising Spirit.  Very underrated ability.  You don't lose any avoidance, but gain 1000+ ac.  You lose 10% of your life every 5-6 seconds.  Obviously not useful for everyday mobs, but if you want to tank those blood red or super powerful raid mobs, use brusing spirit.  You now take less damage per hit than the plate wearing gaurdian, AND you still avoid twice as much.  They say as you go higher your advoidence goes down to the point where you never dodge.  This is in fact a MYTH.  10 levels above me, I avoided them just like I would a white con, maybe slightly less.</P> <P>I also use hammer or morning star and buckler.  I get heckled sometimes for being a bruiser with a shield, but when I can outtank any less skilled player, guardians included, then they quiet down.  I actually did some log parsing, between dual weild and one hand/shield.  Agaisnt a yellow solo beetle in EL, I was doing 40 or so DP dual weild, and it did about 32 or so DPS back at me.  I switched to star and shield, my DPS dropped to 37, 3 whole DPS points, and the beetles DPS dropped to 23 dps.  I lost about 10% of my damage, but the opposing enemy lost 30% of it's.  Do 10% less damage and take 30% less damage?  Not exactly a big contest for me.  </P> <P>If you tank white or higher mobs, you should use a shield.</P> <P>If you tank red mobs, you should use bruising spirit AND a shield.</P> <P>I think alot of bruisers think because we are bruisers, we shouldn't have to use a shield to tank.  Thats why they are putting in that patch, but for now, fighters ( us included ) really should use a shield while tanking.</P>

[BrickyardRac]

<DIV>Today I was kicked out of a group because im a bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Bruiser/monk are my favorite tanks (I'm a defiler).  Unfortunately very few ever believe me when I say that you guys make good tanks.  So few are even willing to try you guys out as tanks, it's rather sad.</DIV>

[BrickyardRac]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Celestian_GC</P> <P> <HR> Drexell2 wrote:<BR></P> <DIV>In most cases yes.  At higher levels, we do an excellent job as MT.  Especially when combined with a shaman/Druid healing team (no so great with Clerics).  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm curious why this statement. Why would a cleric (templar/inq) have any more trouble healing a bruiser/monk than the others except for the fact in my experience they take a load more damage than guardians/plate types.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>As a defiler at 33, I find that bruiser/monks take so much less power to keep healthy than any other type of tank.  I can be MUCH more offensive with them.  My wards generally don't last very long at all with Guardians (until I get the mob debuffed), unlike with brawler-types.  Same group setup, just swapping in a bruiser for a guardian, and I'll spend more power killing the mob with the bruiser than with the guardian (who takes more power to keep healthy).</P>

[Erasm]

<DIV>Any well equipped fighter can DEFINATELY tank better than a swashbuckler, who can tank fine vs 1 mob yellow^^ or lower. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 days ago I got Gibe and wrote it off as an ability that wouldnt see much use. 5 minutes later our tank dies after not mending in a long time. All of his gear broke except his weapons and a few other pieces. I asked him his AC before it broke, and mine was higher and I had more HP, so I gave it a whirl. So for the next hour or so a swashbuckler tanked yellow ^^ giants in TS with a lvl 20 templar as the only healer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if I can tank, brawler types can definately tank. Anyone that thinks a monk/bruiser cant tank because of thier class is dead wrong. A certain player may not be able to tank.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Monkeygr]

<DIV>People who never mend their armor...what, they never go to town?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone posted about Brawler tree shooting themselves in the foot by thinking they can't tank....I imagine this is because so many of us are coming from EQ1 where we couldn't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know it has been for me very hard to unlearn years of game presumptions.  Yes, of course EQ2 is <U>not</U> EQ1.   But it's hard in the same game universe just offset into the future, with so many points of familiarity, not to have EQ1 "baggage" and no one can carry more baggage than an EQ1 Monk, am I right my brothers and sisters? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also agree that player competency is about as important as class abilities when it comes to tanking or anything else.  In EQ1, as a midlevel Monk, I was a supah pullah, I was damned good.  Took me until I was hanging about the level 60+ set that I discovered that almost any class can pull well if they are smart about how they play.  And almost any class including Monks could stink about it if they did stupid stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure a smart Brawler can tank as well as any other melee or better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hardly have grouped very much (I keep getting sidetracked by tradeskills and side projects...) but I remember distinctly the first time I grouped for a quest area and found myself the tank.  I about freaked out.  All my EQ1 instincts were saying, get behind the mob, you are going to eat Rampage and riposte yourself to death!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But a few seconds later I found the taunt key and sure enough, I could tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if we could just get casters who get aggro from running around in circles while the tank tries to catch up to what's hitting them....that part hasn't changed. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[doubleblade]

<DIV>OMG will u guys please start building ure own groups so us shammys can main heal, I ve had monks/brusiers tank for me a few times without any problems at all, only LACK of experience . So will u please start making  groups for us so we dont  have to revert to being a 2ndhealer only. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV> <DIV>Level 39 defiler</DIV>

[killzo]

<DIV>I've been in good groups before where we tried to have a monk or bruiser tank.  The problem is that when they get hit, they go down REALY fast.  Faster than even 2 healers can heal.  Avoidance is nice when they avoid, but they take too much damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps if your fighting greens or low blues, they are perfectly good, but move up to oranges or reds that hit for 1500 a pop and they go down in 2 hits.  The bottom line is your taking a risk having a monk or bruiser tank.  For a bunch of pulls where they don't get hit much things will look great.  Get a pull where he takes 2 big hits in a row and your gonna have to evac or suffer a group wipe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I've seen Berzerkers make the best tanks.  They can hold aggro better than any other class.  Hell they take it away without even trying from a guardian that is taunting like crazy with adept skills.</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Potentater wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>wayfaerer wrote:<BR>I find that brawler types do not make satisfactory tanks unless there is a druid or shaman type to heal. Cleric heals don't work very well on brawlers.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV> </DIV>I agree. I play a shaman and <EM>GENERALLY</EM> use less power healing/warding a brawler type tank then a straight up warrior. However, I also find that a brawler type <EM>GENERALLY </EM>doesn't hold aggro as well in the cases that more healing/warding is necessary.<hr></blockquote>I think the holding agro is entirely the player behind the toon.. last night while playing in a group with the MT a level 18 brawler, we picked up a level 19 palidan and the brawler defered to the Pally (since he was a level higher). Up til then, taking stuff that was blue^^ to me (white ^^ to the brawler) we were doing fine with 2 creatures per encounter, no agro loss for more than 1 second at the start (and that rarely). After the pally took over, -every- single pull had one of the two creatures breaking off the pally and heading straight to the healer. After the 4th time (with the healer dying that time), we ended up removing the pally as main tank.I dont say by this example that the paladin class is worse at tanking than the brawler, I say that the -player- was worse at agro control than the -player- of the brawler. If you dont know how to use the tools of your class, and dont know the mechanics of combat, you are not going to be as effective (or effective at all) as someone who does.. regardless of your archetype and role in combat.

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Morthia wrote:<DIV>Interesting that you say this Ahtener, because I am to the point of purposely avoiding Berzerkers in my groups unless they are going to be the MT. It is so frusterating as a cleric to have to constantly dump heals on a Berzerker that is four levels lower than my spouses Paladin. Even with backing off on their special attacks, they still pull aggro. Maybe Paladin's aren't as good at holding aggro, but I have heard people in my guild saying that Berzerkers are now the best raid tank due to aggro management.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>This reminds me of the Kunark days of Rangers. I think an aggro reduction skill is in order for Berzerkers?</DIV><hr></blockquote>I dont think, as a level 25 berserker, that I would have any issues NOT getting agro.. you wont get quite as much damage from me (but hey, I am not a DPS class) as you would if I was MT pulling agro, but all it takes is knowing what you are doing. I would probably not use dual wield and would turn off the skills/buffs/etc that generate agro... but losing agro to a tank 4 levels above me that knows how to tank? Not going to happen... especially with 4 levels of damage output increase, 4 levels of taunt capabilities increase, etc... I have grouped with a guardian higher in level than me before with him as MT and very rarely would I pull agro from him, and only when he is distracted or I deliberately do it (to grab adds).

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Rontgen wrote:Grouped with a Zerker a couple levels lower than me not too long ago. I was MT and with his Bloodlust ability (or something similar to that) I had a terrible time holding aggro. It was to the point where I had to go nuts with all taunts, Intimidate, and group buffs just to hold on. Once the Zerker turned Bloodlust off, I had no problems, although he did less damage as a result. Perhaps there was a better sequence of taunts/abilities to hold aggro with a Zerker in group. Since that was the first and still only time I've group with one, I can only speculate.Sorry to push this thread even more off track.<p>Message Edited by Rontgen on <span class=date_text>12-31-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span><hr></blockquote>the serk should not have fired bloodlust at the beginning of the battle.. same reason mages shouldn't nuke and healers heal until the tank has a chance to establish agro.. but to be honest I would not have used bloodlust at all if I wasnt main tank... the risk of pulling agro off and as a result risking the entire party by distracting the tank and healer is too much. I would also not use "focused rage" since it runs the risk of elevating my hate level if it fires off... (just not as much)..

[Sorvani]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> doubleblade wrote:<BR> <DIV>OMG will u guys please start building ure own groups so us shammys can main heal, I ve had monks/brusiers tank for me a few times without any problems at all, only LACK of experience . So will u please start making  groups for us so we dont  have to revert to being a 2ndhealer only. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV> <DIV>Level 39 defiler</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> actually i've seen more of a problem here these first two months with people not accepting shamans as a healer. only as a secondary healer. which is jsut as stupid as people not accepting brawlers/monks. of course the whole 2 healers thing alot of people have irks me to no small end too. with a quality group i'm never out of power from a single encounter and only healer. the only time i get low is when things don't go right like adds or someone else in the group not doing their job correctly.

[Windy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> killzone wrote:<BR> <DIV>I've been in good groups before where we tried to have a monk or bruiser tank.  The problem is that when they get hit, they go down REALY fast.  Faster than even 2 healers can heal.  Avoidance is nice when they avoid, but they take too much damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps if your fighting greens or low blues, they are perfectly good, but move up to oranges or reds that hit for 1500 a pop and they go down in 2 hits.  The bottom line is your taking a risk having a monk or bruiser tank.  For a bunch of pulls where they don't get hit much things will look great.  Get a pull where he takes 2 big hits in a row and your gonna have to evac or suffer a group wipe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I've seen Berzerkers make the best tanks.  They can hold aggro better than any other class.  Hell they take it away without even trying from a guardian that is taunting like crazy with adept skills.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Are you talking L50 raid mobs?  I got jumped by archfiend whats his name... Izzorath or something.  Groupx2 ^^^ L45 blood red mob.  Without bruising spirit ( he jumped me, it's a bugged spot in Nektropos ) and he was hittin me for 300-500 damage a pop.  Even the standard L40 stuff that my group normally takes doesn't usually exceed 500 max on a single strike, and those are pretty rare.  I'm L34 too.</P> <P>I gotta wonder, where is the 1500 a pop?  What kinda god or dragon is doing that much to you're L50 bruiser?  The only way I can think that a lesser creature would do 1500 a shot would be to have a full set of grey armor AND you're like L12.  I can't imagine having more than 1500 hp and having that low of ac.</P> <P>Leather armor isn't THAT much less than plate. I still have like 1400-1500 AC unbuffed at L34.  Sure a plate tank has like 2000-2200 AC, but still... 1500?</P>

[fur]

<DIV>Defilers are made for healing monks/bruisers, i play with the same group of rl friends on a daily basis consisting of a inq , bruiser trouby and a defiler and off and on a brigand, the inq.s heals are pretty uselss as reactionals aint much use when you get hit 10 times at the most in a encounter, his debuffs are really nice though and his regular heals are not bad so in our little team he performs the role of 2nd healer and does that quite well, one thing to point out though is that a bruisers best friend is a trobuy, i cant say that enough as a trouby or dirge boost agi among other things to the level that you will be evading / blocking / parrying so much that wards will time out unused now and then. The main problem i see as i advance in level with my bruiser is the lack of aoe taunting, shout is no longer very reliable as means of controlling aggro post 30 and jeer will send a mob smack into a wall but is on the other hand a really awesome taunt cc ability outdoors. Single target fights are not an issue, we can tank em and we can maintain aggro with the best of em, however managing a 5+ mob encounter with shout as the only aoe taunt is pretty tough on mana drainage as you have to use not only your hate generating buffs as well as heals in combat even when not needed just to keep the mobs from ponging into the support crew.  The feedback i get from the healers is that i am a very light mana drain compared to heavy armor tanks when doing solo dual arrow mobs but a mana strain in a multiple encounter, which imo is ok , sayin that we cant tank is ludicrous especially after level 30 however we are alot more suited as 2nd tanks then primary group tanks, and i think this is intended as we outperform the heavy using tanks in dps by a mile. A mile.</DIV>

[Alarye]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDave wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snipeh wrote:<BR> <DIV>...I would say that my bruiser is way up there with the best of 'em. I do struggle with harder mobs - yellow^^ give me a bit of grief.. but anything below that is no problem.</DIV> <DIV>... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm seeing similar issues to this as a mystic.  We work awesome against mobs near our level - better than other healers.  The problem is people don't want to kill 10 whites in a row when they can kill 3 reds and it seems that as levels go up plate tanks (and templars in my case) are more effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's all very well balancing things with the even-level, average-encounter theory, but what happens when the player base decides they prefer higher risk-reward encounters and certain classes scale up better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*shrug*</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am sorry, but as a Monk, I tank just fine.  Now, one very true thing I have found is it depends on the group you are with.  I have played with all types (except Zerker) (I have even GRP'd with Illusionist who didn't think it efficient to Breeze the MT.  <whatever&gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I have found that as a monk it may seem that we get beat down fast and are "Paper" Tanks, and guess what, we do.  When a monk gets hit it hurts, but if you have a good healer that can keep up you will have no problem.  Do I hand over the Tanking to the other fighter types?  Yes as long as they can do thier job, I have pulled mobs off of the Almighty Guardians (Even Levels) based on my damage output alone (no taunts on my part).  I think Monks are balanced, we are not a mitigator, we avoid getting hit and keeping you gear current is a must, otherwise you are nothing but a fighting mage, and You will get handed your backside on a regular basis.  If you do not like how your class works, take a good look at everyone else.  There is NO learning curve from EQ to EQ2, it is a separate game.  Look at all the buffs in game, in EQ it was cast and forget or in a fighter class it was hit autoattack and go smoke.  Now you actually have to pay attention.</P> <P>Big Dave, Mystics rule, I love wards, much more efficient than a heal any day for me, and thats against a red or yellow ^^ mob. It's a great world when a healer can actually come and start beating on a mob.</P> <P>Gone forever are the Cast and Sit magic users, WhooHoo.  Sitting no longer helps, everyone can help beating down the bad guys!!!!  I love it.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> </FONT>

[Balmore]

Tanking with Monk is fun. It's just like, when your Monk gets hit, you feel the hit real life.What makes it much more fun is that you're always showing EQ1 folks that you can tank.Tanking with Monks requires more experience than tanking with Guardians. Monks rely on good gear more than any of the other classes.Monks are tanks with fun.That was my opinion, Thanks! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Windy99 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> killzone wrote:<BR> <DIV>I've been in good groups before where we tried to have a monk or bruiser tank.  The problem is that when they get hit, they go down REALY fast.  Faster than even 2 healers can heal.  Avoidance is nice when they avoid, but they take too much damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps if your fighting greens or low blues, they are perfectly good, but move up to oranges or reds that hit for 1500 a pop and they go down in 2 hits.  The bottom line is your taking a risk having a monk or bruiser tank.  For a bunch of pulls where they don't get hit much things will look great.  Get a pull where he takes 2 big hits in a row and your gonna have to evac or suffer a group wipe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I've seen Berzerkers make the best tanks.  They can hold aggro better than any other class.  Hell they take it away without even trying from a guardian that is taunting like crazy with adept skills.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Are you talking L50 raid mobs?  I got jumped by archfiend whats his name... Izzorath or something.  Groupx2 ^^^ L45 blood red mob.  Without bruising spirit ( he jumped me, it's a bugged spot in Nektropos ) and he was hittin me for 300-500 damage a pop.  Even the standard L40 stuff that my group normally takes doesn't usually exceed 500 max on a single strike, and those are pretty rare.  I'm L34 too.</P> <P>I gotta wonder, where is the 1500 a pop?  What kinda god or dragon is doing that much to you're L50 bruiser?  The only way I can think that a lesser creature would do 1500 a shot would be to have a full set of grey armor AND you're like L12.  I can't imagine having more than 1500 hp and having that low of ac.</P> <P>Leather armor isn't THAT much less than plate. I still have like 1400-1500 AC unbuffed at L34.  Sure a plate tank has like 2000-2200 AC, but still... 1500?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This was the dragon on the Everfrost boat as well as the triggered Shark in Everfrost.  I didn't look at the log, but the tank who was a level 41 berserker got hit for over 1000 on several occasions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Likewise, you can get some crazy aggro in Feerott because a lot of the groups seem to have their members spread out over long distances.  In such cases your going to get 2 or 3 groups of 5 or 6 mobs on the tank.  While they don't hit for a lot, having 12-20 mobs banging away on the tank can bring them down really fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't get me wrong,  I like monks for their DPS but every time we had a monk or bruiser be the mt, things went well for a bunch of pulls.  Then we would encounter some mob that perhaps got lucky and get a bunch of hits in (the random number generator seems to be very streaky), and he would drop in seconds.  Even if we had 2 healers it would not have made a difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is, do you want a tank that takes damage in a predictable way, or do you want one that may not get hit as much, but will drop like a rock if a mob gets a bunch of good hits in?</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> killzone wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>This was the dragon on the Everfrost boat as well as the triggered Shark in Everfrost.  I didn't look at the log, but the tank who was a level 41 berserker got hit for over 1000 on several occasions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Likewise, you can get some crazy aggro in Feerott because a lot of the groups seem to have their members spread out over long distances.  In such cases your going to get 2 or 3 groups of 5 or 6 mobs on the tank.  While they don't hit for a lot, having 12-20 mobs banging away on the tank can bring them down really fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't get me wrong,  I like monks for their DPS but every time we had a monk or bruiser be the mt, things went well for a bunch of pulls.  Then we would encounter some mob that perhaps got lucky and get a bunch of hits in (the random number generator seems to be very streaky), and he would drop in seconds.  Even if we had 2 healers it would not have made a difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is, do you want a tank that takes damage in a predictable way, or do you want one that may not get hit as much, but will drop like a rock if a mob gets a bunch of good hits in?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Funny.  I tanked all of CT and Ever Frost and Perma Frost starting at 40 all the way to 48 with one healer (warden) in my group.  I guess your healers just weren't doing their job.</P> <P>I've been hit for over 1,000 plenty of times, and I've never died because of it.</P> <P>I've had Animated Glaciers add, I've had Giants add, etc and so on.</P> <P>I've tanked lvl 50++ named giants, ice berg, undertow etc.</P> <P>All with one healer, all being a monk.<BR></P>

[Rpgplay]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=15259" target=_blank><SPAN>Windy99</SPAN></A><BR><SPAN>Master<BR>Posts: 192<BR>Registered: 11-10-2004<IMG height=8 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=150 border=0><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=15259" target=_blank></A><BR><IMG height=8 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=150 border=0><BR> <P>Viewed 222 times<BR></SPAN><BR><IMG alt="2 ratings - 4.5 average" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/icon_rating_5.gif" border=0></P><IMG height=1 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=1 border=0><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> smackdaddy_D wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tenzan wrote: <P>From my personal experience (and yes, this is an opinion not 'proof') my Monk tanks just fine up to yellow^^ and with some effort on oranges. With a Shaman in the group I'm the preferred tank over our guardian and when you get a Shaman and a Druid healing I'm nearly invincible <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Bummer. In a decent group of all the same level characters, with a gaurdian tanking, red^^ mobs are of no concern.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You haven't lived until you've killed legions of firerock goliaths with a group of level 21 and 22s, or whacked on the level 40s in Runnyeye with a group of 33s. Uphunting is only possible with a real tank. The paper tanks can stand behind the mob doing damage, like me and all the other dps classes. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Just a headsup, bruisers are a high skill class.  I had a guardian who wanted to show me how well I could tank, a money where your mouth is sorta thing.  We did it in runnyeye.  Tanking different things, all the way up.  Final test to convice him was fighting a pair of red L40 mino's.  I tanked them just fine, without any problems.  <FONT color=#ffff00>The entire group was L31,</FONT> except for the guardian ( who didn't tank during the fight, just fought ) and me... L30 bruiser at the time.</P> <P>The secret?  Bruising Spirit.  Very underrated ability.  You don't lose any avoidance, but gain 1000+ ac.  You lose 10% of your life every 5-6 seconds.  Obviously not useful for everyday mobs, but if you want to tank those blood red or super powerful raid mobs, use brusing spirit.  You now take less damage per hit than the plate wearing gaurdian, AND you still avoid twice as much.  They say as you go higher your advoidence goes down to the point where you never dodge.  This is in fact a MYTH.  10 levels above me, I avoided them just like I would a white con, maybe slightly less.</P> <P>I also use hammer or morning star and buckler.  I get heckled sometimes for being a bruiser with a shield, but when I can outtank any less skilled player, guardians included, then they quiet down.  I actually did some log parsing, between dual weild and one hand/shield.  Agaisnt a yellow solo beetle in EL, I was doing 40 or so DP dual weild, and it did about 32 or so DPS back at me.  I switched to star and shield, my DPS dropped to 37, 3 whole DPS points, and the beetles DPS dropped to 23 dps.  I lost about 10% of my damage, but the opposing enemy lost 30% of it's.  Do 10% less damage and take 30% less damage?  Not exactly a big contest for me. </P> <P>If you tank white or higher mobs, you should use a shield.</P> <P>If you tank red mobs, you should use bruising spirit AND a shield.</P> <P>I think alot of bruisers think because we are bruisers, we shouldn't have to use a shield to tank.  Thats why they are putting in that patch, but for now, fighters ( us included ) really should use a shield while tanking.</P></DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P>Im a 32 guardian and we dont get AQ plate upgrades until 32, after i got my plate upgrades I could tank groups and 2 adds(yellow,orange). Why would they make the monk be able to tank better than the Guardian...   only thing i can think of is that its buggy like the zerker taunt(Bloodlust). Unrelated to this post, but ive seen many posts about lvl 30 and below guardians, guardians get alot better past 30. With a 33 templar i can tank stuff alot higher than me.</P> <P>If monks really are better tanks, then why have guardians at all? If this is true then its has to be a bug. However i havent seen this to be true yet past 30.</P>

[Drexel]

<DIV>I am only lvl 29, but I think the answer there is that Guardians will tank multiples better.  Tanking being not only damage absorbtion, but also agro management.  I  think this is where guardians excel, in keeping mulitple red mobs on them...and no place else...Bruisers just don't do this as well...at least in my (lvl 29) exp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drexell2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am only lvl 29, but I think the answer there is that Guardians will tank multiples better.  Tanking being not only damage absorbtion, but also agro management.  I  think this is where guardians excel, in keeping mulitple red mobs on them...and no place else...<FONT color=#ffff00>Bruisers just don't do this as well...at least in my (lvl 29) exp.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We do, especially past 40.</P> <P>All fighters are tanks.  Guardians and Monks/Bruisers can tank the same mobs.  They just do it in different ways.<BR></P>

[Drexel]

<DIV>I am going to respectfully disagree.  I mean, you are effectively saying that Guandians are Gimped because they are just taunt bots...and they can't even do that better than bruisers.  I think the Devs are smarter than that.  I think we will be very capable, but not the best at tanking the toughest encounters in game.  Looking at my, mostly offensive skills post 30, versus a guardians defensive skills, I think its pretty clear we can both do it, but Guardians would have an advantage in taunt ability, and obviously damage mitigation.   True Bruisers may not get hit nearly as much, but its like someone posted earlier:  I like the idea of a more predicatable AC and larger HP amount on a Guardian for large raid encounters rahter than the "as long as I don't get too many unlucky rolls in a row we should be OK" model.  For normal fighting/exping...I think its probably even, but for raid  encounters...Guardians seem much safer as the MT.  At least the concept.  Again...I ain't there yet, so this is just speculation based on logic, but its seems the most feasible.  otherwise, what are guardians good for at higher lvls?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drexell2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am going to respectfully disagree.  I mean, you are effectively saying that Guandians are Gimped because they are just taunt bots...and they can't even do that better than bruisers.  I think the Devs are smarter than that.  I think we will be very capable, but not the best at tanking the toughest encounters in game.  Looking at my, mostly offensive skills post 30, versus a guardians defensive skills, I think its pretty clear we can both do it, but Guardians would have an advantage in taunt ability, and obviously damage mitigation.   True Bruisers may not get hit nearly as much, but its like someone posted earlier:  I like the idea of a more predicatable AC and larger HP amount on a Guardian for large raid encounters rahter than the "as long as I don't get too many unlucky rolls in a row we should be OK" model.  For normal fighting/exping...I think its probably even, but for raid  encounters...Guardians seem much safer as the MT.  <FONT color=#ffff00>At least the concept.  Again...I ain't there yet, so this is just speculation based on logic, but its seems the most feasible.  otherwise, what are guardians good for at higher lvls?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>People who like to play a heavy armor wearing defensive oriented style tank.  Just as Monks are there for people who want to play a martial artist type tank.</P> <P>All fighters do the same job (tanking) they just do it in different ways and styles.</P> <P>Oh yeah, and I am there <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Drexel]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"All fighters do the same job (tanking) they just do it in different ways and styles."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You see this is exactly my point though.   I understand you are a higher level than most Bruisers, but, the basic game is still the same.  Different styles work better in different situations.  A Guardian will have advantages in certain encounters by default, whereas Bruisers will have advantages in others.  Thats all I am saying.  Each class has a role that they can play better than any other.  Yes, i am a Tank.  BUT, I am not the best Tank for every encounter.  I do not see myself as an equal to a Guardian or Zerker in every situation.  I am in the "hell" levels of Bruiser right now, but am nearly out of it.  Even with the defense upgrades we will be getting with the new patch, it all depends on what you are fighting, where you are, and what the group you have around you consists of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drexell2 wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"All fighters do the same job (tanking) they just do it in different ways and styles."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You see this is exactly my point though.   I understand you are a higher level than most Bruisers, but, the basic game is still the same.  Different styles work better in different situations.  A Guardian will have advantages in certain encounters by default, whereas Bruisers will have advantages in others.  Thats all I am saying.  Each class has a role that they can play better than any other.  Yes, i am a Tank.  BUT, I am not the best Tank for every encounter.  I do not see myself as an equal to a Guardian or Zerker in every situation.  I am in the "hell" levels of Bruiser right now, but am nearly out of it.  Even with the defense upgrades we will be getting with the new patch, it all depends on what you are fighting, where you are, and what the group you have around you consists of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>S~</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>True, the group around you is very important.  With a druid or shaman, a bard and enchanter and the agility buffs they provide Monks/Bruisers are hard to beat.</P> <P>I've also tanked just about every mob in the game so far with one healer in my group.</P> <P>I've played with me tanking, with guardians tanking and with zerkers/pallys/sk's tanking, and honestly there isn't much difference at all between them if they know how to play their class.<BR></P>

[benisbor]

<DIV>This is a bunch of crap. It's our obligation as players to start feeding the clerics, shamans, and druids the opposite of the dribble they were used to in EQ1 -- MONKS AND BRUISERS ARE NOW TANKS. Yes, they do excellent damage! Enjoy it as an added bonus, but don't think it's all we have. Bruisers are some of the best tanks in the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact, I'm going to post in the priest forums. </DIV>

[RoninSenshi]

lvl 26 Bruiser, tanked the Demon (level 30 double ^^) With only one healer (25 Inq) just fine.Was cake.That said, I never liked tanking. I only do it when I have to.