I see a lot of posts saying Bruisers cant tank

[IkkyScar]

<DIV>First off let me state that I am a level 41 Bruiser, and am the main tank in just about every group I join.  Every healer I group with states I take less power to heal then "Tin Cans" (Plate wearers), and make a better tank.  Let me also state I'm not doing anything special.  I'm not some "uber" player.  I'm just using the skills given me.  For straight up exp tanking (yellows/oranges/light reds) Bruisers seem to be more then adequate and I have 0 problems getting a group.  In fact there are times when I log in that I have to immediatley turn on an afk message so that I can sift through all the tells I get asking to tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not boasting here.  There is no reason to boast about something that Sony designed.  As I said, I'm not doing anything special.  However, I wanted to put this out there for people who come here and read the boards and only see negative posts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our taunts seems a little lacking and our skills are highly ineffective while tanking (they get parried/miss/etc, a LOT) but overall we outdamge nearly every other tank class while tanking except possibly a Zerker.  Our DPS goes WAY down while tanking, but it's a sacrifice you make when you tank.  I don't find it difficult to keep aggro for the most part.  The only thing that really needs tweaking is our aggro on group mobs.  Shout, even at Adept 3, is not that great.  We need a higher level AE taunt skill (maybe we get one at some point, but up to level 41 all we have for ae taunt is shout).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Ignore Pain line, which gets upgraded as you level to Ignore Hurt, and then one other (don't remember name) is absolutely great on the healers power supply.  It heals a % of your hp.  Fully buffed mine heals 900+ points of damage.  When you combine it with defensive concentration buffs such as bouncer, and use your 30 second parry/deflection buffs (Bob and Weave or the level 40 one which name eludes me), and have a healer with reactive heals or wards, you virtually never lose life and the healer will nearly always stay between half power and full power with you tanking.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a Bruiser you can also go into DPS mode, and be highly sought after in groups.  We do extreme damage when not tanking, especially with skills like 100 hundred hand slap and grapple.  Right now at 41, my 100 hand slap is doing around 700-800 points on yellow-orage ^^ mobs (I have master 100 hand slap).  Grapple usually does around 250-300 (Adept I), not to mention we get several other extra attacks that do 100-200 points of damage that have side effects such as silencing, stunning, debuffs and more.  We also get 3 minute buffs which can either increase the groups AC, or offensive skills.  Brawl is an especially useful buff to use when not tanking.  Right now Brawl Adept one gives me +20 Fists, -40 deflection.  +20 fist skill is basically 4 extra levels of fist skill.  It does increase your damage significantly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To put it bluntly, Bruisers are a great all around class which can fulfill several roles in a group, and once your friends start to realize your potential, you should have absolutley no problems getting a group.  I'm sure on "Uber" raid type mobs we probably won't make the best tanks out of all the choices.  However, even now, at 41, I have no problems tanking level 47^^ mobs with a 5 person group and 1 healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's up to you to erase the stigma that because we wear light armor we can't tank.  I guarantee you once groups see you tank, you will be highly sought after.  I should note that levels 25-30 are kind of a "grey" area for Bruisers.  We have some difficulty tanking unless a Shaman is in the group.  Once the cleric classes get 30+ and get decent reactive heals though, we can tank as good if not better then plate wearers.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guber--41 Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV><p>Message Edited by IkkyScarab on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:10 PM</span>

[Mum]

Amen Ikky, I've been tryin to get this idea across for a while now, hope more pick up on it soon lol, but I have to agree our aoe taunt is weak, I've found out that if you do it off the bad and everyone assist you its not that big of a problem, but if a caster does an AOE nuke or something of that nature its very hard to get the agro back on you in multiple mob encounters.-Tamaran 32 Iksar Bruiser / 12 scholar- AB

[IkkyScar]

<DIV>I think it's a taunt problem in general, not just specific to Bruisers.  A couple things I've noticed.  If certain buffs are cast before you apply your taunt, it is nearly impossible to pull aggro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV>I pull with a throwing star and then run back to group.  I have to wait for the mobs to get in range to taunt.  If a Coercer casts haste before I get my taunt off, the mob guns it for the Coercer and it can be difficult to pull off at times.  Troubador 3 minute buffs while cast in battle draw EXTREME aggro as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AE Taunts are so-so.  On 4 mob pulls they keep aggro fairly well, but sometimes you'll lose aggro on the 4th mob by the time you get to it.  AE taunt either needs to be more powerful, or it's timer needs to be reduced.  30 seconds is a bit to long.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I say it's a taunt problem in general because I notice other tanks having the same problems.  I can easily pull aggro off Guardians and SK's just from my damage.  In some groups where I don't tank, I literally have to wait until the mobs life is down 1 bub before I start using my damage skills or I steal aggro every time.  Zerkers seem to be able to hold aggro the best.  From what I've seen/been told, there damage increases when they tank whereas the opposite is true for Bruisers, our damage increases when we are hitting from behind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soooo...it's not just a Bruiser problem, but an overall tank problem.  Even so it's not THAT big of a deal.  For the most part I don't have trouble holding aggro at all.  It also depends on the group.  For the most part I only have to taunt once at the beginning of the fight and I will keep aggro the entire fight, however some groups I'll have to taunt it twice (with a troubador and sometimes with an assassin).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guber--41 Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV><p>Message Edited by IkkyScarab on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:14 PM</span>

[Dakotawo]

<DIV>What do you think about Jeer? Does it really increase hate toward the bruiser like it states? I've already found out that it fears only the targeted mob, not all mobs like it states.</DIV> <DIV>I totally agree with your post and it makes me look forward to higher lvls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Strice Sliicendice, 23 Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Member of Dark Prophecy</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[runamonk]

<blockquote><hr>Dakotawolf wrote:<DIV>What do you think about Jeer? Does it really increase hate toward the bruiser like it states? I've already found out that it fears only the targeted mob, not all mobs like it states.</DIV><DIV>I totally agree with your post and it makes me look forward to higher lvls.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Strice Sliicendice, 23 Bruiser</DIV><DIV>Member of Dark Prophecy</DIV><DIV>Crushbone</DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Oh yes it certainly raises your hate with the remaining mobs. I've had all of them (excluding the fear mob) jump and pull aggro, it works quite well actually.

[Gestalt79]

<DIV>Nice post Ikky, like many players of a particular class, I sometimes worry how effective I'll be in later game.  Sounds overall like we bruisers to be will have a place (or several) in groups ahead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One question for you though, slightly offtopic but still applicable I think.  You mention multiple times cleric and shaman classes and how their heals compare and their effectiveness given a bruisers avoidance based tank style.  How about with the 3rd healer type, druid subclasses?  I'd think regen based healing would fit in between cleric reactive and shaman rune style.   Perhaps not, I can only go off what my Fury has experienced and to be honest, it seems 95% of the tanks I heal are Crusader/SK.  Partly cause guilds mt is SK, but even in pickup groups there seem to be a ton around.  Haven't had a brawler/bruiser in group since druid was about 18.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Pauleh]

<DIV>we can tank but still get hit hard</DIV>

[IkkyScar]

<DIV>I haven't group a ton with the druid classes, but the few times I have, there healing has been inferior to Cleric/Shaman.  Note that Shaman healing isn't that great either, but their Wards make up for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as Jeer goes, yes i use it but only in certain circumstances.  It is a great aggro builder/getter but you can't always use it because of the fact that it fears the mob.</DIV>

[EmptySki]

<DIV>What I find useful in catching aggro is "Rousing Cry" when you pull.  When buffing your team you get the same aggro a priest would if they buffed you.  So, after shouting a group of mobs, I always use "Rousing Cry".  I never have a problem with aggro unless there is an Assassin in my group and I slack on taunts. (my sister is an assassin, so there is always one in my group, lvl 44) Sony already stated ALL fighting classes can tank the same, just in different ways, some mitigate and some avoid, but in the end everyone should have equal oppurtunity.</DIV>

[Oidan]

<DIV>We cant tank against mult ememies as well as a Plate wearer, other than that I totally agree, great post.</DIV>

[EmptySki]

<DIV>Actually, You are wrong, we are the best at tanking multi enemys as long as you keep backing up so they are all in front of you -- SO your dodge/parrying/blocking/etc avoidance is working.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To back my case up on the multi enemy situation:</DIV> <DIV>44 - Taunting Stance (A provocative stance that sometimes enrages your enemies when you hit them)<BR>49 - Bone Crusher (A multi-enemy attack that decreases the armor class of all opponents hit)<BR>50 - Abuse (Increase hate towards the bruiser and deals high damage to all enemies in an encounter)<BR>50 - Savage Blows (A series of attacks that targets up to 5 enemies within melee range)</DIV>

[Manuel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EmptySkies wrote:<BR> <DIV>Actually, You are wrong, we are the best at tanking multi enemys as long as you keep backing up so they are all in front of you -- SO your dodge/parrying/blocking/etc avoidance is working.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To back my case up on the multi enemy situation:</DIV> <DIV>44 - Taunting Stance (A provocative stance that sometimes enrages your enemies when you hit them)<BR>49 - Bone Crusher (A multi-enemy attack that decreases the armor class of all opponents hit)<BR>50 - Abuse (Increase hate towards the bruiser and deals high damage to all enemies in an encounter)<BR>50 - Savage Blows (A series of attacks that targets up to 5 enemies within melee range)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sorry, but at 27 you dont have any of those. you got your stinky old grey taunts, Jeer & good luck... Its encouraging to find out that high lvls are doing well at endgame, but 20-30 so far is just a pain to tank, as far as MY experience goes. And yes, top adept stuff, never give yer back and all that crap... you still get hit. But then, ive got  100str but half that agi. Maybe that changes sumtin (dont know tho, but it should) </FONT></DIV>

[benisbor]

<DIV>Optimistic post. </DIV>

[justfr]

I was very negative towards bruisers between 25-30 , I didnt believe we had a role to play in groups as ppl wanted to guardians to tank and scouts to dps. Now ive hit 31 and im a machine I tank just as good as anyone. Bruisers rule. like the origanal post said 25-30 is weird area for bruisers , give it time to hit 31 and see what a machine u can be. Yeah our taunt sux. I use jeer adept1 instead shout.

[IkkyScar]

<DIV>Yes, we really start to shine 30+.  1-20 we are great, 21-25 we are so-so, 25-30 seems difficult, 31+ we are incredibly good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a combination of many things, but once you hit 31+ you will notice a dramatic change in your effictiveness as a tank.</DIV>

[EmptySki]

<DIV>I had no problem taunting at any levels :smileyindifferent:</DIV>

[Southe]

<DIV>only thing bruisers need is a better mid lv AoE taunt. having to wait til 40+ to upgrade shout doesn't seem fair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as tankin goes, at lv26 with app3 bruising spirit i get 1100+ ac buff for 30seconds, stack that with staggering stance, brawlers stance, martial focus i never have a problem tanking mobs. Im looking forward to our dmg arts post 30 and bouncer at 30.</DIV>

[IPCDoll]

<DIV>Actually, thanks for this post.  I can stand some awkward levels where I don't tank efficiently.  Truthfully, I am not all that interested in being main tank anyway.  I am 21 right now and my dilemma is that I gear up DW for DPS and stand behind the targets.  This works great.  If the MT is killed though, I only last 30 seconds with heal spam filling the chat logs.  I blame my gear somewhat of course as it mostly stinks, but nonetheless, I am thrilled to hear that we improve in later levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks again for the pro-Bruiser post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Blaere Klostermunk</DIV> <DIV>- aka Trace Route</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Miyu-Lega]

The thing here is not that we cannot tank, but healers do not know how to heal us. I am 21 and am always grouped with a friend of mine who plays a inq. She demands that I tank over anyone else in group because it's easier to heal me when you know how to do it. Proactive heals are how it works, not reactive. So if you take the time to explain this to your healers you will see just how efficently you tank.

[gazz]

i dont know where u tankin and what kind of mobs. Do u really think we could tank that good with this Dps? If that would be true who would ever take a guardian/zerk/pala again.And believe me i try many ways of tanking with every buffs on and all diffrent Healers.Fact is we cant tank.Every time a level 9 fighter is telling me on and asking how does a bruiser tanks i speak o him the true, that no one after level 20 will invite u as a seroiusly tank and its very hard to get a group.Remember E2 without a group is totally unplayable if u want to get in high levels and see something new.Im a 41 bruiser now and the only reason if someone invite me to group is my Dps and then only if they cant find a scoutclass. Nut i dont ment to them they r Right. Who wants a class in a Group who can make everthing but not really good. So please SOE give us more Dps then a asassin cause we dont have anything else that make us important for a group.sorry for my crap English im germanGreetz Gazz

[Kulpr]

Great post Ikky I comletely aggree with every point you stated. Once poeple start thinking outside the box I suspect a lot of bruisers are going to start appearing. I'm just glad to be part of the initial wave.P.S.- I have no problems finiding groups in fact I usually don't have enough time to shout that I'm lfg before I get an invite.<p>Message Edited by Kulprid on <span class=date_text>12-28-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 PM</span>