Im a bruiser..but, i can not tank.

[Bornfromdarkne]

<DIV>I cant tank. Im sorry, but with the stigma attached to a light armor fighter, and the lack of mitigation..there is no way a group will randomly invite a bruiser (nor will i let them) as a main tank. Fact /end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact: Brawlers are not tanks. They are DPS. Unless a brawler takes noticeably less damage per fight that a plate-wearing class, only cream of the crop guilds will ever invite or use a Brawler as a "Tank" character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though this WILL happen, it will only happen for those characters that are IN a top-notch guild. The rest? DPS role ONLY.  and thats only if the person inviting has seen a brawler in action.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize this is not a problem, but i figured i would make it clear.</DIV>

[runamonk]

This isn't true at all. I tank all the time, do I do as well as I would like? Not most of the time but I can do it, it just depends on the circumstances.I'll tank if our group has a lesser level tank or lesser AC or a significant amount less of HP. Also like it best when I have a shaman around my level in the group, it makes a world of difference. I also try and keep all my armor upgraded and I always replace grey pieces with something better.I would rather have a good tank my level holding the aggro though, makes it easier for me to flutter around an pull mobs of the healers and such - crowd control can keep ya pretty busy if you don't have an enchanter in the group.Oh another thing, Moorgard mentioned that we're getting a deflection update in the patch on wed, so keep your toes crossed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by runamonk on <span class=date_text>12-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:43 AM</span>

[HitMan]

I tank a lot too although I would rather not. Personally I like 2ndary tanking better. I would rather run intervene and stance on our main healer then dish out the pain but, that's just me.

[Bornfromdarkne]

<DIV>This is what im saying lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Should we, as players, have any  uncertainty when playing the "tank"?. NO. Does a Guardian or Berserker have any doubts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as being a tank, its a cut and dry issue. You can tank..or you cant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont mind being a DPS. I do mind, however being called a tank by Officials, and unable to do so properly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It leaves us without a role to fill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can we tank? YES.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can the basic player population not playing a brawler see this? No, im afriad not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you honestley say that random player X, seeing you (a 22 monk/bruiser) and a 22 (Shadow Knight, Paladin, Guardian, Berserker) Dosent see a diffrence when looking for a Melee character?</DIV>

[Jow]

<DIV>I tank just fine /shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers stance/staggering stance/tougness/martial focus/ignore pain=  4 teh win!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>24 Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>~Nektulos~</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jowaa on <span class=date_text>12-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:18 AM</span>

[HitMan]

The tools are there if you want to tank, you just have to work at it. I'm just saying I personally don't want that responsibility. Bruisers/Monk can play different roles, that's what I like abt the class personally.

[thisMoriMo]

I agree with your first statement--you can't tank because groups assume you can't. That seems to be a common misperception.

[psubull]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bornfromdarkness wrote:<BR> <DIV>I cant tank. Im sorry, but with the stigma attached to a light armor fighter, and the lack of mitigation..there is no way a group will randomly invite a bruiser (nor will i let them) as a main tank. Fact /end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact: Brawlers are not tanks. They are DPS. Unless a brawler takes noticeably less damage per fight that a plate-wearing class, only cream of the crop guilds will ever invite or use a Brawler as a "Tank" character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though this WILL happen, it will only happen for those characters that are IN a top-notch guild. The rest? DPS role ONLY.  and thats only if the person inviting has seen a brawler in action.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize this is not a problem, but i figured i would make it clear.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I'm sorry if YOU don't know how to tank, but the fact is, bruiser tanks just fine, even better in many cases.  Light armor has nothing to do with it.  What good is armor if they aren't hitting you anyway?  The reason people say "Low AC cant tank end of story kthx" is because they believe they're playing EQ, but I think they need to be awakened and realize that they aren't.  Sure, in a fight, I'll get hit for individual hits at 300 to 700.  You also need to look at how often you get hit, once again.  Since deflection was tweaked the other day, I sometimes take much less dmg per hit than a guardian or SK would.  Bouncer + Bob and Weave + eye gouge + Staggering stance on someone in the party (all adept 1 or 3) = victory.  Don't even need to have a shaman at this point, any healer will do.  And this is against orange++ and red++ in the 30s.  Sometimes if I get a set of bad rolls, and keep getting hit, bruising spirit.  Yes, we do damage, but we aren't a strictly DPS class.  If you don't like to tank, don't tank, just be DPS.  If you want to tank, let your group know.  Please don't say your opinions are facts, because I have people beg me to tank for them.  What does guild have to do with it?  It doesn't make the player tank better.  If someone is a poor tank, I will bet you any amount of money that it isn't because of their class, rather it is their own personal problem

[Manuel]

<DIV>To all who say they Tank just as if not better than plate tanks... ROFL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guess thats why they are changing the way deflection/parry mitigation works...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can tank, son. But its just not that easy, and youll be a mana sink in most cases. There are <EM>some </EM>setups that will help, but dont expect heavy strategy on pickup groups. People stick to the easiest and safest... You still have a lot of things to do in a group though, its been said, bodyguard the main healer, crowd control with Jeer, and unleash hell on foes, something no warrior class can match us at... In fact with me oger bruisa of 26 seasons DPS specialist im STILL outdamaging most SCOUTS I team up with... Yes and mages too...  Thanks God for FD! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SECOND THOUGHT- But maybe more AGI-oriented bruisas CAN actually deflect/parry decently... I would still stick to line #2 </DIV><p>Message Edited by Manueles on <span class=date_text>12-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV><EM>SECOND THOUGHT- But maybe more AGI-oriented bruisas CAN actually deflect/parry decently... I would still stick to line #2</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>That's exactly the point and the problem with the Bruiser class. You can do both things, but you have to focus to be able to do them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I first started playing as a Brawler/Bruiser, I went all out attack. Dual weapons, strength boosting equipment, and spammed my damage abilities, all but ignoring my defensive ones (except the always on ones). Consequently, I thought I sucked hardcore at tanking. I could outdamage the other DPS in the group most of the time though, so I felt I held some kind of purpose (later, with Jeer, I found additional purpose of Crowd Control).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I was duoing a lot later on in levels and noticed I was getting wailed on way too much, I decided to check out the defensive stuff. If I maintain my defensive abilities, switch out to more defensive gear (+agi, high health/ac) and actually use a decent round shield, I could tank very well. Rarely got hit as long as the mobs faced me, and even when they did they weren't doing as much damage as they had previously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To tank tho, I had to give up a lot of ground in the other areas I was excelling: Damage and Crowd Control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, our tanking is a little more "scary" for the healers. Nothing, nothing, nothing, BAM! 350 damage!, nothing, nothing, nothing. That's why I like shaman.. they don't see the big hits and everything feels "safer". Toss in a self heal every 90 seconds and you can further alleviate your healer woes. Currently, I get to use Ignore Pain at least twice a pull, if not three times (depending on the size of the encounter).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to play a Bruiser as a tank, you have to think like a tank. Turtle up! It's possible, it's just that many, many people see Monk and think "must do damage!", and ignore or reduce their effectiveness at tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for grouping. The last two groups I've been in (aside from the one that basically ran to the killing spot and proceeded to die 3 times over before I left) I was asked to join <EM>to be the tank.</EM> Maybe it's just fluke. But I was playing with Pallys and Zerkers and they still had me doin' the tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally prefer the role of Damager/Crowd Controller over the role of Tank/Puller. If there's another tank class in the group, I'd rather they tank so I can tear into the mob, and/or do crowd control.</DIV> <DIV>In fact, I almost insist (unless strange circumstances) when we don't have a Coercer, because I know I can alleviate problems with adds or overaggro if I'm not tied down with MT duties.</DIV>

[Dakotawo]

<DIV>I find myself tanking regularly and I enjoy it. I usually have as much or even 100 hp more than SKs or Berserkers at my lvl. While I do have less AC than them, just throw Brawler's Stance up and you're gtg. We as bruisers may not tank as great as the Heavy Armor classes but we hold our own when we have too. It's all about the gear man <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Strice Sliicendice, 23 Bruiser, Crushbone</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Manueles wrote:<DIV>SECOND THOUGHT- But maybe more AGI-oriented bruisas CAN actually deflect/parry decently... I would still stick to line #2<hr></blockquote>AGI does not affect deflection skills.

[Lycri]

<DIV> <DIV>Um, I'm the main tank all the time and have no problem finding a group. It seems you've played into this "Bruisers can't tank" mindset that is going around, which in my experience is not true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tank just fine; and no, tanking isn't black and white. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a 27 Bruiser, I use Brawler's Stance/Fire Fists, Intimidation and Jeer whenever they are up to reduce damage being done to myself and Bob & Weave at the beginning of a battle; and in most cases you have one less mob attacking you than a normal tank would have with a high amount of deflection/mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are using all of your power on DPS; then you aren't tanking correctly. You have the tools to be a tank <STRONG>or </STRONG>a DPS; which I think is great. Tanking may not be as easy as it is for a guardian, but it's very doable. I've gotten many compliments on my ability to hold aggro and tanking ability, so really it depends on the player.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To say that you refuse to group, knowing you will be the main tank is your problem. Can't help it if you don't know how to play your class correctly. While I do wish our deflection would be increased slightly (which Moorgard mentioned would be happening in tomorrow's live patch), I don't think there are any serious flaws that need fixing.</DIV></DIV>

[Pauleh]

<DIV>I still enjoy Bruisers as DPS since there the highest melee hitters for the fighter class</DIV>

[justfr]

Yes we can tank , can tank up to yellow^^ just as good as any guardain can. We get to orange^^ and red^^, we get wolloped. I never say no if im asked to tank and can always stand up to any mob, but we are taking alot of damage, and u cant always have 2 healers in ur grp or a shammy or enchanter to keep multiples pounding u from all over. Guardians can tank orange^^ and red^^ without as much difficulty as us. Thats where i feel the problem lays, if we are supposed to be tanks, make us just as effective as a guardian in tanking orange^^ , red^^ mobs. When ppl say : <blockquote><hr>Jowaa wrote:<DIV>I tank just fine /shrug</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Brawlers stance/staggering stance/tougness/martial focus/ignore pain= 4 teh win!</span><hr></blockquote>It annoys me , u dont always have time to cast them , when a stray walks by or when the unexpected happens.I hope this patch does the trick at least let us tank better than paly... bah what am i talking , paly's suk.

[Jow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> justfran wrote:<BR>Yes we can tank , can tank up to yellow^^ just as good as any guardain can. We get to orange^^ and red^^, we get wolloped. I never say no if im asked to tank and can always stand up to any mob, but we are taking alot of damage, and u cant always have 2 healers in ur grp or a shammy or enchanter to keep multiples pounding u from all over. Guardians can tank orange^^ and red^^ without as much difficulty as us. Thats where i feel the problem lays, if we are supposed to be tanks, make us just as effective as a guardian in tanking orange^^ , red^^ mobs. <BR><BR>When ppl say : <BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jowaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>I tank just fine /shrug</DIV> <DIV>Brawlers stance/staggering stance/tougness/martial focus/ignore pain= 4 teh win!</SPAN><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>It annoys me , u dont always have time to cast them , when a stray walks by or when the unexpected happens.<BR><BR>I hope this patch does the trick at least let us tank better than paly... bah what am i talking , paly's suk.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers stance lasts like 12 minutes so thats a non issue on it not being up. Martial focus has such a short recast time thats even a non issue. The others arent necessarily needed to tank. If you get an unexpected pop, toughness isnt going to make or break the encounter and neither will ignore pain or staggering. Those are extra things that make it easier on the healer if anything. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have tanked orange and red mobs and done it quite well, but i dont do it often. Why? Because every group I have been in knows the best xp is chaining blues/whites/yellows. You can have the most uber guardian ever and be tanking red grouped mobs like nothing and thinking "yeah! we are killing reds huzzah!", but my group next to you killing blues/whites/yellows 2 times as fast is making alot more xp and almost 0 downtime.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your going for a named or raid encounter, by all means get a big hefty meat shield to stand there and get walloped, but for normal xp grinds and quest sessions, Bruisers perform just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. You also need to realize bruisers perform best with the right "type" of healer in the group. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jowaa on <SPAN class=date_text>12-15-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:10 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Jowaa on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:11 AM</span>

[EmptySki]

<DIV>Bruisers can tank.</DIV> <DIV>Level 43, and I have been tanking since lvl 1. </DIV> <DIV>They are en evasive tank, (Heavy Scarring = the pwnage) .  I also use bruising spirit if NECESSARY... but rarely do.  Mend when at 50% to help  healer.  I have one good healer friend, and a loyal group.  Its been going well.  I use a shield sometimes, but mostly my Heirophants Crook.</DIV>

[Windy]

<DIV>The late 20s are a big source of dispair, or were for me.  Because of that whole +39 deflection thing at L20 you start off pretty strong, but as you get higher it seems like you're getting weaker.  You aren't, you just aren't growing in strength as far as deflection goes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was pretty depressed, and finnally by 28 my deflection was normal for my level, without any extra bonus.  It was getting pretty hard to tank, I could do it, but it was getting rough.  29 was the same way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The came 30.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure what happened, but after I turned 30 I was quite a bit more powerful.  Everything seemed alot easiar, and all my defensive skills went off like I was L20 again.  I looked at my skills, stats etc.  Nothing out of the ordinary.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not sure what it is, but have hope for those of you who are pre-30 and starting to have doubts.  I think there was something weird going on under the hood in the game engine during the 20s, but it seems to be straight now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing to keep in mind is the choice of healers.  Clerics just aren't good enough.  We need a real priest - a defiler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each of the 3 priest classes has direct heals, or heals that instantly replenish hp at the cost of power.  No, clerics aren't the king of direct heals, they are all pretty much equal as far as I know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The specialties work like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman has wards - The wards absorb damage before AC is applied.  This means that wards absorb the same amount of hits no matter who they are cast on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid has regen - Every tick a nice chunk of health is restored.  From my experience it's not enough to completely hold off most mobs, but it sure softens the blows a whole lot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cleric has reactives - These are buffs that "proc" a small healing effect when the target is hit.  It's important to note that the buff does not proc unless the target takes damage.  Any sort of avoidance counts as a miss.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each of the basic fighters has a preferred healer type.  For us it works like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman Wards - Since we dodge twice as often, the ward lasts twice as long.  Normally we take twice the damage because of our low AC, but since the ward isn't effected by AC it doesn't matter.  This makes shaman wards most effected when used with a bruiser.  Most shamans get flak for being poor healers, but it's just that the warriors can't dodge very well, so it eats up the ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid Regen - This is pretty neutral to us.  Regens work well, but not exceptionally well like the wards do.  Regens stack with wards, and thus work very well with crusader types, who can ward themselves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cleric Reactitves - Since we dodge twice as often, the reactives go off half as often, and thus is half as effective.  We take twice the damage when we do get hit, but the reactives still heal for the same amount.  Since most clerics are used to warrior tanks, they think the bruiser is eating up there mana and taking huge amounts of damage.  We aren't.  We are doing just fine, compared to the warrior, it's the CLERIC who is the problem. But most don't understand that, and they blame us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can tank fine, you just need a good shaman to back you up.  With our high avoidance, those wards will last longer on us than any other tank.  And aslong as the wards last, thats ALL that matters - avoidance.  AC won't mean anything until the ward goes down.  And then the shaman can just ward you again.</DIV>

[Varrick]

<DIV>I am a lvl 21 Bruiser with close to 90 Agility.... And Ill tell you this... Any groups that have seen me tank.. want nothing to do with a tank that has double my armor.. why ? I dont get hit. When I do.. it hurts.. but we got a healer for that. I evade, dodge, parry and counter attack more than anyone. I keep aggro very well.. why ? Because I can outdamage anyone out there. I use top of the line pristine crafted stuff (boiled cuir, even my weapons) and gold jewelry. Most my saves are in the 300-500 area. My AC at lvl 21 is 750. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can unload over 1000pts of damage first few seconds of a fight.. as a tank or a DPS.. </DIV>

[Redbed]

<DIV>A few days ago I too doubted my tanking ability.  But I got in some really good groups and now I have no problem with it.  Bruisers can tank.  Not my preferred job but I can do it.  I much prefer the DPS role though.  Nothing like being full offensive and just wailing on the target.  We are at the low end of the Fighter class Tanking spectrum.  But were at the Top of the Damage End so there you go.  You take the good, You take the bad.  Personality goes a long way in this game.  So does being in the right place in the right time and be willing to work with others.  When you get your foot in the door, make an impression.  Hopefully a good one.  Word gets around.</DIV>

[elorei]

<DIV>well, i dont play a tank, i play a healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>can i say which tank has more health, or how much damage they do exactly? no, i have never researched it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i can state which tank has the most AC though, and that is *NOT* a bruiser or monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wait for it...here comes the line where i say screw main tanks that are brawlers...right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my fav tank to keep alive?  BRUISER!   any day of the week.  a good bruiser fears the add, the wiz roots it, boom, one less mob to deal with.  the bruiser hits like a truck, more aggro for him.  the bruiser hits fast, my proc buffs on him go  off more, more aggro for him.  the bruiser gets hit HARD....but less.  which would i rather deal with?  the guy getting hit for 300 a pop 3 times, or the guy getting hit for 450 one time?  its simple math on my end, ima take the bruiser yet again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if players wont let you tank for their group, be glad.  chances are these guys suck anyway, fnd a good group that plays the game well, and they wil welcome you with open arms.  the ONLY exception would be clerics, bruisers and monks kinda suck when the healer is a cleric, because reactives dont do squat unless you get hit.  but bring along a druid and you are unstoppable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i play sometimes with a lvl 41 (hell for all i know hes higher now) bruiser that can utterly dominate huge groups of high level mobs without me A) ever dropping below 40% power, even if im dotting like mad, debuffing, and buffing all the melees;  B) ever getting aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so if you are gettign bias from newbie players that think you cant tank, just move on;  chances are if they are so set in their beliefs that you cant tank, they prolly dont know much about the game in general, and you will prolly be better off in a better group anyway.</DIV>

[Ghaleon]

<DIV>Well said Elorei =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zahn </DIV>

[runamonk]

<blockquote><hr>elorei74 wrote:<DIV>well, i dont play a tank, i play a healer.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>can i say which tank has more health, or how much damage they do exactly? no, i have never researched it.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>i can state which tank has the most AC though, and that is *NOT* a bruiser or monk.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>wait for it...here comes the line where i say screw main tanks that are brawlers...right?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>wrong.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>my fav tank to keep alive? BRUISER! any day of the week. a good bruiser fears the add, the wiz roots it, boom, one less mob to deal with. the bruiser hits like a truck, more aggro for him. the bruiser hits fast, my proc buffs on him go off more, more aggro for him. the bruiser gets hit HARD....but less. which would i rather deal with? the guy getting hit for 300 a pop 3 times, or the guy getting hit for 450 one time? its simple math on my end, ima take the bruiser yet again.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>if players wont let you tank for their group, be glad. chances are these guys suck anyway, fnd a good group that plays the game well, and they wil welcome you with open arms. the ONLY exception would be clerics, bruisers and monks kinda suck when the healer is a cleric, because reactives dont do squat unless you get hit. but bring along a druid and you are unstoppable.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>i play sometimes with a lvl 41 (hell for all i know hes higher now) bruiser that can utterly dominate huge groups of high level mobs without me A) ever dropping below 40% power, even if im dotting like mad, debuffing, and buffing all the melees; B) ever getting aggro.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>so if you are gettign bias from newbie players that think you cant tank, just move on; chances are if they are so set in their beliefs that you cant tank, they prolly dont know much about the game in general, and you will prolly be better off in a better group anyway.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Amen! I grouped with some awesome peopple the other night in TS killing giants and they were quite surprised when our sk left and I took over as MT and did much better than him. They were equally surprised when I started intimidating the mobs and jeering the extras so that we could fight a couple at a time instead of four. Alot of people don't understand what we can do and for good reason, there are alot of bad monks/bruisers out there who just don't have any idea how to play in a group and use the skills/spells they were given.

[Scil]

<DIV>Being a healer myself i can definately say bruiser/monk is indeed a real tank and the most important factor of how effective the brawlers are as tanks is determined not only by the person behind the brawler but the kind of healer they paired with albeit im prolly the worst kind of healer for a brawler but i still use them as main tanks when i can (just to spite people in my group who say they not tanks usually)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but the final word i guess would be clerics suck as main healer for brawler since all our buffs are HP AC stamina and based on getting hit opposed to preventing dmg and slowing or boosting brawlers key stats</DIV>