Balance of some Bruiser Combat Arts

[Moski]

<DIV>i lvled to 32 today and i was very dissapointed about my new  Sucker Punch (Launches a punch attack that deals high damage. It must be launched from behind or flanking the target)</DIV> <DIV>i thought ok nice some kind of "backstabb" that "deals high damage"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>at lvl 32 my max damage on following skills are:</DIV> <DIV>Bruising Strike App III (Lvl 17 Skill)             209 dmg </DIV> <DIV>Rapid Strikes App III (Lvl 19 Skill)               4 * 70dmg = 280 dmg</DIV> <DIV>Grapple Adept I  (Lvl 31 Skill)                     240 dmg</DIV> <DIV>Sucker Punch (Lvl 32 skill)                        135 dmg</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the difference between my lvl 17 Skill and my lvl 31 update (even with higher Adept Skill) is only 209 vs 240 dmg ??</DIV> <DIV>my high damage attack (lvl 32!) launched from behind or flanking deals less (much less) damage than my lvl 17 Skill ??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is there something wrong - not balanced -  or is it just me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   ? </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Arcasian5]

<DIV>hmm.. give it some time to master? cause the skill is probably orange con or yellow to you still, since you just got it compared to the lower ones.. which you have already mastered.  so the lower skills are already at full potential in terms of your lvl.  The higher skills arent yet.</DIV>

[Moski]

<DIV>maybe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my "high damage flanking attack" makes 1/2 the damage than my lvl 17 skill ...</DIV> <DIV>even if i lvl up some lvl it wont be near the dmg of my lvl 17 attack skill</DIV> <DIV>and shouldnt do the flanking attack do more (not as much as ... more!) damage then a standard 15 lvl lower attack skill ?</DIV>

[Moski]

<DIV>ohh i forgot</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>most skills i get start as orange</DIV> <DIV>sucker punch started blue ....</DIV>

[Windy]

<DIV>One thing to keep in mind, brusing strike and it's replacement are high damage attacks that are fueled by your own life force.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's really weird that it would start off blue to you.  Give it time, and it may improve some.  It may need to be upgraded for it to really be effective aswell.</DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>First off, your ability colors are used <EM>exactly</EM> like the colors for your equipment, <STRONG>not</STRONG> like conning an encounter. An ability cons grey to you because it's not going to work well against creatures you'd be fighting (creatures that are even level with you). That's why you need to ditch shout and just jeer at the higher levels, shout will simply not do anything anymore...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's just like weapons, a grey con weapon will not be good at bypassing damage mitigation from an even conned creature. If you have an orange con weapon, it'll be best. Your attack abilities follow the same pattern.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>209 vs 240. That's not a problem, it's scaling accordingly. The newer ability will continue to grow in damage while the other one will only remain useful against grey cons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, apprentice 1 is actually the "gimped" version of the ability. Devs have stated that app2 is considered "normal" for the ability, and app3+ is gravy. Comparing to the app1 version of the new ability is putting a serious disadvantage on that ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third, how quick is the recast timer? This is a new ability (afaik) and not on the same timer. If you can use it quicker than every 30s, then it's already going to be lower in damage... similar to how a 1.5s weapons will be lower damage than a 2.2s weapon, but the 2.2s weapon will have a heckuva lot more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sounds like the problem with this new ability is that it started off blue. I've had that happen with one of my abilities before too... I think it was Feign Death actually. First time I got an ability of that line, and it was blue. Same with this one. Not sure if that's a pattern or anything, but it's something I've seen. How'd Play Dead look at 28? Was it blue too, or higher con? Maybe the first time you get a new mechanic for an ability, it's a little more [Removed for Content]?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's an added attack in your line of attacks though. I can already chain together Rapid Swings, Bruising Strike, Flying Kick, Thrust Kick, Focused Strike, and then even go into Crash and Shoulder Slam, before running out of direct attack abilities. Adding in another attack (not just a replacement) is a huge benefit on it's own that shouldn't be overlooked.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Moskito wrote:<DIV>ohh i forgot</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>most skills i get start as orange</DIV><DIV>sucker punch started blue ....</DIV><hr></blockquote>My sucker punch and haymaker started as white, haymaker is now blue though.

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<DIV>209 vs 240. That's not a problem, it's scaling accordingly. The newer ability will continue to grow in damage while the other one will only remain useful against grey cons. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Not really, rapid swings and bruising strike remains effective even after their replacement. I don't know where you pulled this "con" matters, there's yet to be any avidence pointing towards that.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P><EM>I don't know where you pulled this "con" matters, there's yet to be any avidence pointing towards that. </EM></P> <P><EM></EM> </P> <P>Try using "Shout" and "Taunt" instead of Taunting Slap and Jeer at level 25+. Personally, I tried it because I wanted area taunt but no fear (in some zones). Quite simply, it did not do any noticeable taunting at all, the healers aggro'd immediately even thought I taunted multiple times. My group buff did more to taunt and get aggro than using Shout.</P> <P>Why would the con of the ability be like conning an encounter? It's something you <EM>use</EM> not something you fight against.</P> <P>I don't know the specifics for damage mitigation, et al. But I do know that it's not "because you just learned it so you suck at it". You don't suck at using an orange weapon, it just means you can use it for a while before it becomes too weak for the encounters you'll be facing. Room to grow and all that.</P> <P>The app3, adept, master and all that is similar to how dropped items are weaker at the same skill level than quested versions, or crafted versions. You get more stats/usability out of it, but it's still the same "con" color.</P>

[Pauleh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <P><EM>I don't know where you pulled this "con" matters, there's yet to be any avidence pointing towards that. </EM></P> <P><EM></EM> </P> <P>Try using "Shout" and "Taunt" instead of Taunting Slap and Jeer at level 25+. Personally, I tried it because I wanted area taunt but no fear (in some zones). Quite simply, it did not do any noticeable taunting at all, the healers aggro'd immediately even thought I taunted multiple times. My group buff did more to taunt and get aggro than using Shout.</P> <P>Why would the con of the ability be like conning an encounter? It's something you <EM>use</EM> not something you fight against.</P> <P>I don't know the specifics for damage mitigation, et al. But I do know that it's not "because you just learned it so you suck at it". You don't suck at using an orange weapon, it just means you can use it for a while before it becomes too weak for the encounters you'll be facing. Room to grow and all that.</P> <P>The app3, adept, master and all that is similar to how dropped items are weaker at the same skill level than quested versions, or crafted versions. You get more stats/usability out of it, but it's still the same "con" color.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> its true

[fur]

<DIV>Well for a given definition of true, fact is that blue weapons usually outdamage orange weaps with same delay, my ebons have higher damage even while blue then my new upgrade staffs that just turned orange, with the same delay. So I dont know if this holds true, afaik a skill that is grey has reached its optimal performance and cannot be increased by levling anymore, to say that it is useless is not really true. And as for shout dont taking aggro, i suggest you get it to adept 1>3, cause it still holds aggro for me with no problems even though it is grey. I wouldnt put to much effort into color coding when it comes to skills, if the skill becomes subpar it goes off the hotbar, as long as it adds to my dps or efficency it stay, what color it is has no importance.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

As furok said, there's no indication that grey skills preforms less. What it means is that when they are white, they've reached their max potential and stops to grow. Differnce between shout and jeer in my opinion is that jeer continues beyond shouts "taunt factor" range, so it naturally becomes more effective with a higher skill lvl. Regardless I don't find jeer a sutable upgrade to shout since it has the fear component. i don't mind that it taunts, I just wish we had a pure upgrade to shout in the 20 range that didn't have a fear component, due to the bad pathing in many indoor zones where mobs get stuck in geometry.

[Jezekie]

Pulled this from the parser.lvl 32 in Runnyeye.------------ Min - MaxRapid Swings - 47 - 105Fiery Fists - 18 - 28Haymaker - 114 - 158Sucker Punch - 123 - 171Grapple - 117 - 240Flying Kick - 64 - 149Thrust Kick - 59 - 148Blitz - 58 - 124Whirling Blaze - 54 - 99Eye Gouge - 57 - 117Fierce Punch - 14 - 27I hate this forums standards. Can't get it to just keep the bloody spaces in the post.<p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:12 PM</span>

[X-Kevl]

<blockquote><hr>Jezekiell wrote:Pulled this from the parser.lvl 32 in Runnyeye.------------ Min - MaxRapid Swings - 47 - 105<hr></blockquote>...which means, Rapid Swings could "in theory" do above 400 dmg?

[narcoleptic_l]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> X-Kevlar wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote:<BR>Pulled this from the parser.<BR>lvl 32 in Runnyeye.<BR>------------ Min - Max<BR>Rapid Swings - 47 - 105<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>...which means, Rapid Swings could "in theory" do above 400 dmg?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>correcto!</P> <P>you can also proc firey fists off of each of those hits too... (get adept I or higher) ... its pretty funny to see firey fists proc 3 times off of a 4 connect rapid swings =)<BR></P>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>X-Kevlar wrote:<blockquote><hr>Jezekiell wrote:Pulled this from the parser.lvl 32 in Runnyeye.------------ Min - MaxRapid Swings - 47 - 105<hr></blockquote>...which means, Rapid Swings could "in theory" do above 400 dmg?<hr></blockquote>Yes, that's at Adept 3 though.Rest of the skills areFiery Fists Adept 1Haymaker App1Sucker Punch App1Grapple Adept 1Flying Kick App3Thrust Kick Adept1Blitz Adept 1Whirling Blaze Adept 1Eye Gouge App3Fierce Punch App3

[Southe]

<DIV>I know of 1 brawler on Unrest server who managed to get his hands on grapple (master I) and One hundred hand slap (master I) and he said the dmg on them was insane. upwards of 400dmg with grapple and 50 x8 with one hundred hand slap. makes grindin through lv 20-25 worth it, even though monks get our lvl 25 kick skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Krace</DIV>